Xan`s in R9

[Scouse]

Originally posted by SPGer
I played Cathaar most round and attacking Xan with them was a big hassle

Xan's were always my favourite targets. I loved attacking them. And I could still defend against all fleets.

Is it just my opinion or did the defender suck big time last round?? And with all the DE defense around the widowmaker is just useless to build.

In 3 rounds of playing Cathaar I never built a single Defender or Widow Maker.

[Baco]

I can't believe in all this complains! I was terran last round and I have found very difficult to attack Xan's and I wasn't the only one, all other Terrans and Zick's had the same prob and considering that 80% of Univ was Xan this became a major prob.
Cathaar was the only race that could attack Xan's with his size!!
No mater what u all can say R7 stats were the most balanced ones and there Xan was weaker and Zick was stronger! They r just doing what they had to!

[Colt]

Bring back r7 stats!!!

[Petru]

r8 stats were a bit of a screwup due to half the people not giving a toss as it was the final round etc.

We all know and admit though, that Xandathrii were far too powerful. Strong stats wise, and especially strong with the change in military scans.

The choices for this coming round were, New Milscans/Reduced stats or Strong stats/old milscans.

The choice was made for new milscans, so the offset of cost efficiency had to be made. Aside from a couple of minute stat changes, the only things that were altered on the ships were prices. They still shoot as much, they still hit as hard, they still fly as fast, they just cost more.

Xandathrii had the highest overal efficiency index as it was. Add in the ETA boon and the Milscan advantage and hey presto, everyone went Xan.

The advantages are there for race uniqueness, so you reduce that efficiency index to compensate.

Don't like it? Change race

Or, do it properly, and adapt, realising the new advantages Xan has.

[ParraCida]

Funny how the xan stats have barely changed since round 7 yet now it suddenly is 'overpowered'. This wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that nobody can see their fleets right?
Downgrading a race because of an unbalanced game features is not the way to go, but what else to expect from 'planetarion'.
Did I mention that the top 100 in round 7 had probably 60 terrans and maybe 15 xan's? Neither of these races had any major overhaules done on them, its all about sentiment these days.

I assume spinner made the decision of keeping the milscans, after all he was so fond of 'information warfare' that he gave us the gift of poofed amps and stuff. Don't get me wrong, xan could definatly need some tuning, an incentive to actualy research above the CO class for instance.

Xan is hard to attack yes, thats the whole idea people - high firepower low armour. It's not supposed to be easy to attack xans but if you play it right you can rip a xan to shreds if you want too. People who are complaining about being unable to roid xans were most likely looking at a target that is simply too big for them, everybody is a 'top roider' these days and can roid targets their own size nps right?

Downgrading xan is probably the only logical option, though resetting milscans should be enough, I for one wouldn't go xan another round with the current ratio and the current zik / cathaar stats. I'd probably build a nice cutter fleet or go cathaar big ships only

[ParraCida]

Originally posted by Petru

Xandathrii had the highest overal efficiency index as it was

I don't suppose you bothered to take armour into the calc?
Xandathrii is as every race an 'ethos', balancing out the efficiency is quite simply nonsense because a xan ship has as a price that it dies far far easier then other ships.

If you really want to do something usefull, tweak terran into something fun again.

[Petru]

Originally posted by ParraCida
I don't suppose you bothered to take armour into the calc?
Xandathrii is as every race an 'ethos', balancing out the efficiency is quite simply nonsense because a xan ship has as a price that it dies far far easier then other ships.

If you really want to do something usefull, tweak terran into something fun again.

Terran hasn't changed anytime recently, when did it take a turn for that bad? All it got was an improved Chimera.

And yes, armour was taken into the calculations, and it still came out top, so, as I said, that coupled with the ETA and speed advantages made it too strong.

and the pegasus got slower, don't forget that one!!

[branko]

well xans have lower eta,low initiative hi firepower,mil scan advantage,sentinals who is only ship fire T3 ALL with almoust same effect no metter is thay fire to small or big ships and what you want more??? extra guns for xans or more armor???

cheanging with sentinals and mil scans from r7 and r8 made xans ultimate race,just turn back this or remove sentinals T3 ALL and put to some other ships higher then CO class T3-all TBT or lancer for example and do some corection in price odds M-C nothing more.But this spinner joke with mil scans MUST be remove

[Chax]

Originally posted by Cochese
They should just forget about all this tweaking and go back to the r7 stats, which were clearly superior to r8.

r7 xans
r8 zik
r7 or r8 cath
r7 or r8 terran

would be a better combo

[Chax]

Originally posted by Baco
I can't believe in all this complains! I was terran last round and I have found very difficult to attack Xan's and I wasn't the only one, all other Terrans and Zick's had the same prob and considering that 80% of Univ was Xan this became a major prob.
Cathaar was the only race that could attack Xan's with his size!!
No mater what u all can say R7 stats were the most balanced ones and there Xan was weaker and Zick was stronger! They r just doing what they had to!

Zik stronger in r7? how on earth do you figure that?

[ParraCida]

Originally posted by Petru
Terran hasn't changed anytime recently, when did it take a turn for that bad? All it got was an improved Chimera.

My point exactly, round 7 terran was by far the strongest race, yet neither xan or terran changed since then and yet now xan is being downgraded because of a game feature.

And zik r8 owned xan r8, there were times that I regretted not choosing zik.

[isildurx]

Originally posted by ParraCida
My point exactly, round 7 terran was by far the strongest race, yet neither xan or terran changed since then and yet now xan is being downgraded because of a game feature.

And zik r8 owned xan r8, there were times that I regretted not choosing zik.

so your saying that XAN shouldnt be downgraded for next round`???

and yes ziks were fine round 8, dont see why they would get an upgrade.... but on the other hand chainging the stealing capabilities doesnt necessarily make ziks better I

[Leshy]

Originally posted by ParraCida
Funny how the xan stats have barely changed since round 7 yet now it suddenly is 'overpowered'.

If I am not mistaken, the Daeraith Pulsar was upgraded for round 8. But the biggest change which pushed Xandrathii into the range of overpowered was the change in cost of the Lyvidian Sentinel. Sentinels were hardly ever built in Round 7 because there were better ships around to spend your resources on. By making the Sentinel a crystal drain in Round 8, every Xandrathii suddenly was able to build loads of Sentinels (lo T3=All) in addition to their other ships.

Especially for Terrans this was disastrous, as Xandrathii now had 2 ships which both did a rather good job of shooting down Pegasi, and which both shot before Pegasi did, and many had a nice compliment of Bombers and Lancers as well, making it a complete suicide to attack Xandrathii.

Did I mention that the top 100 in round 7 had probably 60 terrans and maybe 15 xan's?

In round 7, the introduction of the special pods was a new thing - no one realised the full potential of them, and Terrans had several weeks of easy Unipod roiding, as people were lacking the required amount of anti-Destroyer defence. By the end of the round, people had been building good amounts of anti-De defense, and attacking was in fact harder for Terrans.

Don't get me wrong, xan could definatly need some tuning, an incentive to actualy research above the CO class for instance.

I agree. Another reason Xandrathii did so well against Terrans last round, is because a Terran player will put lots of resources into ships that are of little or no use against Xandrathii (Wyvern, Dragon, Syren, Chimera, Gryphon), because Xandrathii only have Fi/Co, whereas a Xandrathii spends all his resources on ships which are effective against anything.

People who are complaining about being unable to roid xans were most likely looking at a target that is simply too big for them

Last round, any Xandrathii of even half my own size was able to kill off at least 700 Pegs a tick, and that before they even got to fire. Add that to the fact that in 99% of all attacks there was OB defence from other Xandrathii, and you had a competely useless round as a Terran.

[isildurx]

i completely agree Leshy, well spoken

[Colt]

Originally posted by Leshy
Add that to the fact that in 99% of all attacks there was OB defence from other Xandrathii, and you had a competely useless round as a Terran.

there were some exceptions (ie mens)

dunno bout ne others

[ParraCida]

Originally posted by Leshy
If I am not mistaken, the Daeraith Pulsar was upgraded for round 8. But the biggest change which pushed Xandrathii into the range of overpowered was the change in cost of the Lyvidian Sentinel. Sentinels were hardly ever built in Round 7 because there were better ships around to spend your resources on. By making the Sentinel a crystal drain in Round 8, every Xandrathii suddenly was able to build loads of Sentinels (lo T3=All) in addition to their other ships.

Actually it was upgraded for Round 7, and the sentinel wasn't build in Round 7 because it 'sucked', it still 'sucked'' in round 8, but just with -1 ETA. BTW I am curious, how well do you think the T3 ALL does against a fleet with 15k FI/CO in it? That is, if it even gets to use that.

Especially for Terrans this was disastrous, as Xandrathii now had 2 ships which both did a rather good job of shooting down Pegasi, and which both shot before Pegasi did, and many had a nice compliment of Bombers and Lancers as well, making it a complete suicide to attack Xandrathii.

If I were terran I'd attack any xan with lancers on the spot, if you seriously think you can 'count' lancers then this shows how much you really know about 'stats'. Building frigates as a xan was just plain DUMB as was shown by girlee in round 8.
And FYI, pegasus has a better efficiency against pulsars then pulsars against pegasus. Also pulsars will fire at the upgraded chimera first which gives them even less eff so a well balanced terran still owns xan any day. Especially with the m:c ratio in the universe as a terran can spend it on chims and pegs whereas the only decent defense against pegs from a xan gets hardly enough metal to be build.

In round 7, the introduction of the special pods was a new thing - no one realised the full potential of them, and Terrans had several weeks of easy Unipod roiding, as people were lacking the required amount of anti-Destroyer defence. By the end of the round, people had been building good amounts of anti-De defense, and attacking was in fact harder for Terrans.

That does not take away the fact that early on anti DE defense is still hard to get early in the round and that the pegasus remains one of the most effective ships in the game. Now I think about it the fact that so many people went xan is most likely because they were fed up with getting raped by terran DE fleets before they even got a shot fired. Terran remains a very very good race but is underplayed because it is quite frankly just boring.

I agree. Another reason Xandrathii did so well against Terrans last round, is because a Terran player will put lots of resources into ships that are of little or no use against Xandrathii (Wyvern, Dragon, Syren, Chimera, Gryphon), because Xandrathii only have Fi/Co, whereas a Xandrathii spends all his resources on ships which are effective against anything.

Yes but that is all a matter of balancing your fleets, on the other hand a xan player had absolutely ****e defenses against CR/BS, and a syren OWNS xan btw. And a chimera does the same as a pure flack function against the pulsars. Every decent terran player I've seen had a nice amount of chimeras to block the first volley of pulsars and then a crap load of pegs to finish it off. Worked like a charm.

Last round, any Xandrathii of even half my own size was able to kill off at least 700 Pegs a tick, and that before they even got to fire. Add that to the fact that in 99% of all attacks there was OB defence from other Xandrathii, and you had a competely useless round as a Terran.

Then you most likely build a bad fleet, because chimeras are the answer. Also 'everybody' had OB defense from xans, OB defense was quite simply unbalanced. Xandathrii should not be held accountible for unbalanced game features as is the case right now.


Xandathrii needs tweaking, I agree with that 100%. Quite frankly it boring as hell to have absolutely NO incentive to research beyond corvettes. All that is happening now is the downsizing of a race that has had no major changes since round 7 because of an unbalanced game feature. With OB gone and milscans reset to round 7, there is already a LOT less incentive to go xandathrii. Add to the fact the m:c ratio is horrific for a xan player and you will see that many people wouldn't even dream of playing an edgy race like that. Well balanced cutter fleets, chim/peg combinations, any cathaar ship own xan so hard its not even funny any more. After round 7 nobody even thought of downgrading xan, most races got an upgrade however including xan getting a -1 traveltime on a (still crap) FI. It is clear that the ONLY reason people are going xan is because of the milscan and the power of stealth compared to round 7. ETA is a good thing, but it is balanced out as we saw in round 7.

I predict the coming changes will set Xan back to its Round 6 status, with the advantage of being stealthy being laughable as every player will quite simply 'not' move their fleet because they know the only way a xan will stay is if they free roids, otherwise they just get raped.

[isildurx]

Originally posted by ParraCida
Yes but that is all a matter of balancing your fleets, on the other hand a xan player had absolutely ****e defenses against CR/BS, and a syren OWNS xan btw. And a chimera does the same as a pure flack function against the pulsars. Every decent terran player I've seen had a nice amount of chimeras to block the first volley of pulsars and then a crap load of pegs to finish it off. Worked like a charm.

.

SENTS target CR and BS very well tyvm.

And so if chims got a nice armour, imo they still get somewhat cnuted by pulsars, and sents.

Terran last round was a bitch to be, clearly the worst race imo.

[hAl]

I do not agree with Parracida's estimate of the M:C tration in r8. It depends a lot on what kind of race you would target most as Xan planets generally started with a healthy metal ratio and half the universe being Xan the metal roids were abundant. My guess from scanning quite a lot of targets gals later on in the round would be the universe ratio was probably closer to 1,3/1,4:1 .

hAl

Originally posted by isildurx


Terran last round was a bitch to be, clearly the worst race imo.

Try being cathaar, everyones fave target

It was always hard to target Xan, even one smaller than you!!

And the Syren only ever became a factor in defence cause it is one of the slowest ships there is..

Face it, Xan was the easiest race to play in r8 (the creators always say terran but that is BS) because you only had to build FI and CO, you did not have to think too much about what ships to build for defence thanks to your crystal sink ship targetting all and you had -1 time to attack thanks to the vulture. There was no real way for someone to tweak a fleet to exploit any weaknesses in a Xan fleet, whereas every other race had areas that you could exploit.

[Leshy]

Originally posted by ParraCida
it still 'sucked'' in round 8, but just with -1 ETA.

The Sentinel didn't suck in Round 8. In fact, I'd say the Sentinel was the single most overpowered ship in Round 8. What made it incredibly powerful was the pricing change, which enabled Xandrathii players to build it in mass amounts while still being able to construct their other ships. In addition to that, it had a T3 of All, countering both Frigate, Destroyer and Cruiser attacks.

BTW I am curious, how well do you think the T3 ALL does against a fleet with 15k FI/CO in it? That is, if it even gets to use that.

Excellent advice for a Terran player. Attack with all your Destroyers and Harpies, just to take care of the Sentinels. You'll lose a good few destroyers to Pulsars, a load of Harpies to Sentinel, Arrowhead and Vsharrak Fighter fire, but you'll get a few roids. That is, if your target doesn't receive defence from 3 other Xandrathii players.

If I were terran I'd attack any xan with lancers on the spot

No, you wouldn't. Not if his 3k Lancers was simple backup for 20k Pulsars and 30k Sentinels.

And FYI, pegasus has a better efficiency against pulsars then pulsars against pegasus.

Too bad your Pegasi will be busy shooting at Vsharraks, Pulsars and Sentinels, while the latter two exclusively aim their guns at your destroyers.

Also pulsars will fire at the upgraded chimera first which gives them even less eff

Another excellent idea, if it didn't mean losing a whole load of frigates just to protect your destroyers. And, with a few Xandrathii rushing in to the defense, that's easily all your frigates gone, and most likely a good amount of destroyers.

Especially with the m:c ratio in the universe as a terran can spend it on chims and pegs whereas the only decent defense against pegs from a xan gets hardly enough metal to be build.

Xandrathii defense did not rely on metal solely with the pricing change last round.

Now I think about it the fact that so many people went xan is most likely because they were fed up with getting raped by terran DE fleets before they even got a shot fired.

What game have you exactly been playing the last few rounds? Everyone went Xandrathii because of the mil scans last round, not because they have the best anti-Pegasus defence.

Yes but that is all a matter of balancing your fleets, on the other hand a xan player had absolutely ****e defenses against CR/BS, and a syren OWNS xan btw.

Syrens are one of the least effective ships against Corvettes that Terrans have. Together with an ETA of 5, they are one of the worst ships you could possibly use against a Xandrathii.

Every decent terran player I've seen had a nice amount of chimeras to block the first volley of pulsars and then a crap load of pegs to finish it off.

In a one-on-one battle, that worked quite nicely. However, with OB and a Xandrathii universe, you never ended up in a 1v1.

Xandathrii should not be held accountible for unbalanced game features as is the case right now.

It wasn't as much OB as the amount of Xan present in the universe.

[Telest]

Well put, Leshy.

All races must be judged in the context of the game rules, which presently means easy military scans & fake fleets.

I personally think that the sentinel was the biggest xandathrii mistake, for while it great defence potential against Zikonians and Terrans, it was really evil against Cathaar, being the only (remotely effective) ETA 3 ship that actually targeted cruiser pods.

Xandathrii fleets were easy to fake with, both in attacks and defences. Fake attacking for a few ticks is virtually free: sending a few hundred pods only cost nominal eonium.

Cathaar, being the easiest race to attack xandathrii with, were also very rare in the universe, possibly because of people being afraid of choosing it in a random universe.

[ParraCida]

Sentinel is still sucky, go calc efficiency.

Terrans dont have to worry about the all target of the sent because they use FR to attack and sent vs fr is teh suck for the sent. Also, ALL are almost never used, and if used most of the time there is a lot of other ships available that diverse the fire.
You are assuming situations that benefit your arguement way to much, try putting in a lil bit of reality.

And yes I would attack xans with FR, especially if they were only FR because then I get to kill those the first tick and make his losses way greater.

The sent and pulsar will be busy shooting at my chimeras, I'm sorry leshy but it seems that you are plainly a 'bad' player if you attack with pegs only. Also the pegs will own the fighters and do LOTS of damage, so if they decide to stay they'll loose fk loads.

Now you are just talking about specific situations, every decent terran has used chimeras over the last few rounds. Chimeras are an awesome ship, just because you'd rather attack with DE only it doesnt mean that xan should be downgraded to suit your needs.

But 'decent' xan defense did, such as pulsars fireing at DE.

I am sorry, but what game have 'I' been playing? Let me see, I've been playing lots of planetarion and since Round 5 I havent been ranked outside of the top 200 once, with Round 5,7,8 finishing top 100 and peaking at top 20 in score and top 10 in roidcount during this time. And I already 'did' say people went xan because of the mil scans, but I do believe that people did base their choice on the fact that they could counter the terran fleets this way. People generally choose their race on more then just one arguement.

And talking about syrens, I will have to refer you to bink, who's galaxy build mass syrens in Round 7 and therefore owned the **** out of everybody they encountered. I attacked their galaxy maybe 5-6 times and got roids only once.

Amusing, again you refer to specific situations, well thats a nice arguement. You are right, but if I change the situation so that it fits me then I am right haha gooo me!

The fact that many people went xan also makes it rather obvious that there would be a lot of xan OB def. Helping out in defending during round 8 I can tell you that OB was used by everybody, just because xan had more low ETA ships their defense usually was more notible because they could cover it at a later time instead of a terran sending ETA 7 wyverns.


I have to say Leshy, you have become quite 'upity' during the last period. From what I have seen over the last few rounds from your accomplishments in game you have absolutely NO idea what you are talking about save your own experience, which is rather limited so to speak. I am willing to have a normal discussion with you, but please stop referring to 'situation specific' unbalances. Arguements such as 'Xan owns everybody because if I attack a xan there is 34523456236 defense so I loose' are not required.
Xan is 'not' overpowered how much you would like it to be, just because you were unable to build a decent terran fleet and roid xan it doesn't mean xan as a whole race is by default overpowered. I have to say you were a much nicer guy when your ego didn't require you to 'know about everything'.

[ParraCida]

Originally posted by Telest
-SNIP-

Theres 'game features' and theres 'stats'. The two are different things in planetarion. If you have unbalanced stats, you do not fix it by tweaking game features. If you have unbalanced game features, you do not fix it by tweaking stats.

But 'yay' for you anyway.

[ParraCida]

btw I'm not gonna reply any more
I think I made my point, besides theres nothing that bugs me more then replying to 'disected' posts.

[Tactitus]

Originally posted by ParraCida
Actually it was upgraded for Round 7, and the sentinel wasn't build in Round 7 because it 'sucked', it still 'sucked'' in round 8, but just with -1 ETA.

They also got a price change to mostly crystal, iirc, which made them appear more affordable. Sentinels really weren't that good compared to most other ships, but like almost any ship, they could be formidable in large numbers.

BTW I am curious, how well do you think the T3 ALL does against a fleet with 15k FI/CO in it? That is, if it even gets to use that.

I agree that T3 ALL tends to be overrated. Ships with T3 ALL have either low weapon speed or high firepower or both; which makes them fairly inefficient against FI (which in many battles are the most common of ships). However, PA has been moving away from the send-some-of-everything fleets since the introduction of the new pods. All-DE and -CR roiding fleets became possible and against those, T3 ALL ships like the Sentinel could be quite effective (and the odd all-BS kill fleet). The -1 ETA change just made it all the more likely that those fleets would find some Sentinels waiting for them.

[Leshy]

Originally posted by ParraCida
Now you are just talking about specific situations [...] And talking about syrens, I will have to refer you to bink, who's galaxy build mass syrens in Round 7 and therefore owned the **** out of everybody they encountered.

Talking of using specific situations...

We will most likely not agree on the subject of the actual stats, as you seem to think they were balanced, while I find that the Sentinel was highly overpowered, due to the fact that it was a ship targeting all classes, had a low ETA and was able to be built in mass amounts on the side, hardly influencing the production of the main ships.

just because xan had more low ETA ships their defense usually was more notible

Added to the fact that we had a vast majority of Xandrathii planets in the universe.

From what I have seen over the last few rounds from your accomplishments in game you have absolutely NO idea what you are talking about save your own experience

You haven't got the slightest idea of what my experience in the game is, or what my accomplishments are.

And if you want to hold a valid discussion, then back up your arguments with facts, rather than the "I finished higher than you, so your opinion doesn't count" or the personal digs.

[MAdnRisKy]

My hands are cold so hi will be full of typos appologies in advance.

Xan have th best scare factor. They hit harder than any race and thye hit you before you can retaliate due to the initiative (disregaring cathar the reasons for which will become obvious).

In a big universe for attacking this was important but not neccessary. In a tiny universe it's essential.

why?

because the "standard" roiding procedure of sending in a tailored fleet to get the 15% cap fo minimum losses has become almost obsolete. This is because of the prevelance of defence.

Now the only effective attacking method is to totally overpower the target and not only force him to run, but to not bother with defence and instead send it where it's more ecconomical to use. This is perhaps an overestimation of the average PA players mentality of "defend me nothing is more important" but in the age where most players of any calabe are in alliancs as opposed ot older days where it was only a select percentage, most of these said PA players' fleets are controlled by BCs not by themselves or immediate friends.

what is the net result of this?

the best race for attacking becomes the bst race to scare away a persons fleet or bash it into the floor, and Xan is clearly the best opion for this by a mile.

The stats helped (though personally I don't think the actual stats were that overpowered, more so the ratios parra mentioned influenced the reason people think sentinals rock; they were all xan's could afford and most people had millions of them because most people were xan, hence they were seen as the best ship of the round), the mil scans certainly helped, but mostly the biggest help for xan was the universe size, something which will become even more prevelent as the universe become more polarised and shrinks in size.

[Zitos]

Originally posted by TheRealKakarott
i just use bots anyway, so the design doesent really matter

then ich will report you.. you.. you.. cheator..

[Tactitus]

Originally posted by MAdnRisKy
because the "standard" roiding procedure of sending in a tailored fleet to get the 15% cap fo minimum losses has become almost obsolete. This is because of the prevelance of defence.

That's a pretty good summary of what PA has become. Overburn was one major exception, but even that's gone now.

[Moondoggie]

Everyone also needs to keep in mind that Xan's attacking fleets also double as a defensive one. Terrans and zik have most of their fleet score in fr and de, which have an eta that is usually too slow to defend out of cluster with. Coupled with getting the travel time research finished earlier in the round, Xan makes things hellish.

Everyone in this argument has been using specific situations. Well, planetarion is a game of specific situations, so I see nothing wrong with that.

The sentinal being a crystal sink AND having t3 all means that a xan fleet will usually be able to hit anything no matter what is sent at it. Sentinals might not be the most efficient ship, but they are for sure the most versatile.

But for the most part, I don't believe xan ships are much more overpowered than the rest. Other than slight tweaks, its the mil scans and eta issues that cause the most problems.

[Telest]

Originally posted by ParraCida
Theres 'game features' and theres 'stats'. The two are different things in planetarion. If you have unbalanced stats, you do not fix it by tweaking game features. If you have unbalanced game features, you do not fix it by tweaking stats.

Why? It's the sum that matters. The stats can only be judgen in the environment they are used in. The metagame is significant and the metagame is unquestionable influenced by the game features.

Why is ~04:00 AM considered the best attack time by many? In reality, there's two reasons:
1) Many players are asleep at that time
2) Many people attack at that time

#2 causes extra stress on alliance defence, hence that is statistically speaking the best time to attack.

(Obviously, some people might argue with valid point that daytime attacks can also work, still, majority of PA launches are done during the european night)

Even the attack time & pattern can affect race choice and balance.

Nevertheless, I don't think it's not reasonable to claim that game features couldn't (or shouldn't) be fixed by stats or vice versa..

[Petru]

Originally posted by ParraCida
My point exactly, round 7 terran was by far the strongest race, yet neither xan or terran changed since then and yet now xan is being downgraded because of a game feature.

And zik r8 owned xan r8, there were times that I regretted not choosing zik.

Completely wrong.

Sentinel cost reduced, Pulsar weaponry increased, if I remember correctly Arrowhead armour AND weaponry increased, Sentinel eta reduced, I'm sure a Vulture armour or EMPr increase, Bomber firepower increased.

You class these as "no changes" ?

(Going on memory here, I'm sure at least half of what I listed is inaccurate, but I don't have any of my stat notes anymore, accidently deleted the folder with everything in )

From memory I thought that Xan had no real changes and when I checked that proved to be the case..

Sent had price change and speed down to 2
Andvorian bomber had power almost doubled
Broadsword had slight gun power increase
Vulture had its agility reduced slightly

what I read from my notes that was it!!

[Linkie]

Originally posted by ParraCida
Theres 'game features' and theres 'stats'. The two are different things in planetarion. If you have unbalanced stats, you do not fix it by tweaking game features. If you have unbalanced game features, you do not fix it by tweaking stats.

Still, both 'stats' and 'game features' affects the game, and therefore stats can make game features bigger advantages for some and game features make stats bigger advantages for some

[cbk100]

After having spend quite some time reading this thread which I didn't see untill now I sit back with a BAD BAD feeling, shaking my head and laughing a little, thinking by myself that its funny, this many ppl has failed to see what is really going on with those changes...

So many argueing over the stats getting changed. Xan getting weaker and zik getting stronger... But has any of you actualy thought about the fact that this game is not only about the core stats of the ships?? ofc. you have, but then why the hell don't you cinsider it in a thread like this???

I have not been in the testing for this round and I have no contacts with PA HQ but the reasons why Xan has been downgraded are obvious and let me try to explain why...

First of all lets see what is changed:

1. The ship stats which has been lowered SLIGHTLY.

Yes looking at that change compared to last round I understand that ppl complain and its true that Xan is totaly sucky this round. Maybe it was the best race last round but they weren't that much better. The change in the stats in not the only one though:

2. Last round we had no reduction in eta on attacks inside cluster. This round that is changed so that the eta on attacks are lowered by 1. Furthermore the eta is also lowered by 1 in paralels...

This is the first issue that you have all failed to take into consideration in your discussions. How will this affect the Xan race?
Well (I) think the Xan will bennefit A LOT from this, because of the fact that they have low eta allready. Last round they could attack with eta 7(6 after tick) in all of the universe and that was kinda difficult to defend aggainst. This round They will be able to attack with eta 6(5) inside cluster and furthermore inside paralel too. How will you defend aggainst that? Well there are 2 ways to do it and the first is to get def inside gal but that will probably not be posible since all of the gal will be under attack. The second, and what I would call the only, opportunity to get def will be from inside cluster. In a round where all alliances more or less demand their members to defend ppl from their own alliance every night it will not be that very easy to get def inside the cluster alliance and it will be even more difficult if about 10 ppl needs it which is very likely to be a scenario we'll see in the big cluster wars when maybe 5 gals are under attack by lets say 5 other gals.

That -1 eta on attack inside cluster and paralel therefore more or less only bennefit Xan and hurts all of the other races. This advantage for Xan has to be taken into consideration and has to be accounted for by lowering their ship stats a little.

And trust me when I say this is a HUGE advantage for Xan which will cause them to do DAMN well in the beginning during those cluster and paralel wars.

3. Overburn is removed this round...

Also that issue hasn't been taken into consideration in this thread. Last round it was posible to defend aggainst those fast Xan fleets with both FI and CO because it was posible to overburn the defense, but this round that is no longer an option. This will mean that Xan ppl will no longer see CO ships but only FI ships aggainst their attacks. Said in other words a HUGE part of the potential def has been removed (I know that CO can be send from inside C and para but as I have said b4 it will probably not be posible to get that damn much def inside C and Para so lets keep this out of the dissucion knowing that its only a very little facter to consider).
When a target with Xan incomings got attacked last round it was very important for their ability to get def that ppl could send overburn def to defend at their place because of the fact that most ppl only send FI/CO as def. Now its ONLY posible to defend aggainst xan with FI...
When a target had Teran, cathaar or zikonian incomings the overburn ability wasn't that important cause the FI/CO fleets could still arrive in time without the overburn and it still can.
Because of that the removal of overburn is a VERY huge advantage for xan and only for xan.
Also this change has to be accounted for and that also has to be done by changing the ship stats.

All in all the "non stats" changes bennefit Xan VERY much and that simply has to be accounted for by reducing the Xan ship stats. Maybe they have been reduced too much and maybe too less. None of us can posibly know that for sure yet and none of us can figure it out with analysing the stats. Its something that you can only figure out by testing it and I trust that PA HQ has done that well enough.

If I am to give my own view I don't think Xan has been reduced enough cause I think the effects from the "non stats" changes are far bigger than most ppl and probably also PA HQ can immagine... I'm seriously considering being Xan this round for the first time.

cbk

Sorry for my thread to be that long, but I think it had to be explained proberbly... I'm tired now and hasn't bothered to go trough it 2 times so there are many mistakes inthere which you will have to live with untill I wake up and bother to read it.

[Tactitus]

Originally posted by cbk100
Well (I) think the Xan will bennefit A LOT from this, because of the fact that they have low eta allready. Last round they could attack with eta 7(6 after tick) in all of the universe and that was kinda difficult to defend aggainst. This round They will be able to attack with eta 6(5) inside cluster and furthermore inside paralel too. How will you defend aggainst that? Well there are 2 ways to do it and the first is to get def inside gal but that will probably not be posible since all of the gal will be under attack. The second, and what I would call the only, opportunity to get def will be from inside cluster. In a round where all alliances more or less demand their members to defend ppl from their own alliance every night it will not be that very easy to get def inside the cluster alliance and it will be even more difficult if about 10 ppl needs it which is very likely to be a scenario we'll see in the big cluster wars when maybe 5 gals are under attack by lets say 5 other gals.

You forgot the 3rd way to get defense--in parallel.

That -1 eta on attack inside cluster and paralel therefore more or less only bennefit Xan and hurts all of the other races. This advantage for Xan has to be taken into consideration and has to be accounted for by lowering their ship stats a little.

And trust me when I say this is a HUGE advantage for Xan which will cause them to do DAMN well in the beginning during those cluster and paralel wars.

3. Overburn is removed this round...

Also that issue hasn't been taken into consideration in this thread. Last round it was posible to defend aggainst those fast Xan fleets with both FI and CO because it was posible to overburn the defense, but this round that is no longer an option. This will mean that Xan ppl will no longer see CO ships but only FI ships aggainst their attacks. Said in other words a HUGE part of the potential def has been removed (I know that CO can be send from inside C and para but as I have said b4 it will probably not be posible to get that damn much def inside C and Para so lets keep this out of the dissucion knowing that its only a very little facter to consider).

Each parallel will consist of ONE TENTH of the entire universe. How can that be a very little factor to consider?!

Your entire argument hinges on dismissing clusters and parallels as mostly irrelevant for defense. Clusters I would agree with but not parallels.

[Sn0w]

there both good and both needed defense sources for next round yes xand will be dangerous at an eta of 5 just as dangerous as pegs at eta 6 though anti de is not always easy to get where as you will find there is alot of anti fi/co around ingal incluster inpara so it works both ways. but your right it is dangerous but so is alot of other things.

I am hearing all this talk about Xan being great because of its speed and stealth, sure this is good in the first half of the round, but when you play your cards right, Cathaar has the last laugh .(huh i hear you say, MEGA PODS!)
Round 7 I was a GC of a random gal, and sure we were roided a few times early on, but who isn't. Then in the last half of the round, I convinced the other Cathaars in my gal to soley build Tara's, Mantis, Guardians and MEGA PODS! I swear it was so funny watching a 30 mill planet recall from a 8 mill planet because he has 4.5k mega pods and 2.5k taras lauched at him.!
How big do you have to be to stop that anyway?

[cbk100]

Originally posted by Tactitus
You forgot the 3rd way to get defense--in parallel.

Each parallel will consist of ONE TENTH of the entire universe. How can that be a very little factor to consider?!

Your entire argument hinges on dismissing clusters and parallels as mostly irrelevant for defense. Clusters I would agree with but not parallels.

well what you fail to remember is that when you are under attack, then the rest of your cluster is under attack too so that leaves the cluster as source of defence out of hte picture. Then you are right that 10% of the universe will be in your para, but do you think they will count as 10% of the potential defence in the universe? ofc. they will not cause most fleets will be demanded by the alliances so it will more likely be some 5% or maybe even less.

But actualy the discussion you take up here is not needed cause this is a discussion where we compare Xan with the other races. The Xan will still have that -1 eta and then it doesn't matter if 5% or 10% or even 20% of the def can come from para. They still have that eta bonus and they will bennefit very much from it.

Usualy you can get def from 4 sources in PA. Friends, Alliance, Cluster and finaly para. I look at friends and alliance as the most important, but when you have xan incomings from para or cluster then you can suddenly not count on those sources anymore. Then you have one provider left and that is your para. The ppl who fail to see the HUGE advantage in this matter fail too see one of the most important strategic advantages for Xan.

I hope we see some serious downgrades in Xan or else xan will rule the universe.

cbk

[cbk100]

Originally posted by Captain Homer
I am hearing all this talk about Xan being great because of its speed and stealth, sure this is good in the first half of the round, but when you play your cards right, Cathaar has the last laugh .(huh i hear you say, MEGA PODS!)
Round 7 I was a GC of a random gal, and sure we were roided a few times early on, but who isn't. Then in the last half of the round, I convinced the other Cathaars in my gal to soley build Tara's, Mantis, Guardians and MEGA PODS! I swear it was so funny watching a 30 mill planet recall from a 8 mill planet because he has 4.5k mega pods and 2.5k taras lauched at him.!
How big do you have to be to stop that anyway?

Tara and Megapod fleet is a good combination. No doubt about that, BUT they have high eta and therefore you have lots and lots of time to find def. With that amount of time its posible for almost everyone to find def.
You also have to consider the fact that you don't get those ships untill quite late in the game. By then the most important battles has taken place.
There are advantages and there are disadvantages and so it is with all races. You just have to consider both and then think about what style of playing suits you best. The chose of race these days is only about what style you play with and only your way of playing shall decide what to chose. As an example I played Cath r6 and yes I did get easy roids and yes it was easy to be high ranked, but damn it was annoying not to kill anything so I don't think I will ever be Cath again.

cbk

[DarkCroW]

Hmmmm, perhaps u should consider the races not from the view of ur single planet but for alliance gaming:

Xans GREAT advantage is, that ALL units make real mass damage, are fast and can be used 100% in offense and defense. Other races have to build ships for defense and offense only (f.e. Terran cant used FI/CO in offense, but needs them to defend alliance mates, same with ZIK and CAT).

And XAN are storng in early game, so they grow fast and are almost much bigger then others later. Bigger is better then having good ships!

And MegaPaod/Taras sucked last round if u were not attacking a nOOb without an alliance. Some XANs send there mass Sentinells and ur CR get ****ed up...

So dont consider the simple stats but their role in an alliance-gaming. XAN was best last round and has to be reduced...!!

I was ZIK last round and went for a nice FR fleet first. Those Cutter/Marauder really kickaSS XANs, but they cant be used to defend ur alliance. So i had to build FI for fast help and that was a lack of attack power. And besiede i hab a real Metal rpoblem cause all these ships i needed costed to MUCH Metal, u know?

Its not stats, but the rols of ships in the game and the way u can merge ur fleet consideing M/C. Xan was able to do that easily with those Crystal sink Sentinells which could be used for EVERYTHING....

[MAdnRisKy]

the vulture is going to ahve to be eta 8 with this small uni and the paralells being back, cbk's post is actually very accurate.

Xan won't lose the advantage of being able to build ships which flak their pods almost exclusively (fi flaks co in most cases anyway) thus making their fleet both defensie and offensive quite easily.

All of xan's score can be spent on useful ships for attacking without compromising on defensive ships and no other race can boast this. Tie this in with the cloak, the defunkt mil scans and the highest fear factor race (see earlier post) it still tips all the game mechanics in their favour.

[cbk100]

Originally posted by DarkCroW
Hmmmm, perhaps u should consider the races not from the view of ur single planet but for alliance gaming:

And MegaPaod/Taras sucked last round if u were not attacking a nOOb without an alliance. Some XANs send there mass Sentinells and ur CR get ****ed up...

So dont consider the simple stats but their role in an alliance-gaming. XAN was best last round and has to be reduced...!!

I was ZIK last round and went for a nice FR fleet first. Those Cutter/Marauder really kickaSS XANs, but they cant be used to defend ur alliance. So i had to build FI for fast help and that was a lack of attack power. And besiede i hab a real Metal rpoblem cause all these ships i needed costed to MUCH Metal, u know?

Its not stats, but the rols of ships in the game and the way u can merge ur fleet consideing M/C. Xan was able to do that easily with those Crystal sink Sentinells which could be used for EVERYTHING....

There is no doubt that Xan was best last round, both in attacks and for sure also in def. They have to be reduced because of that, but also because of the new changes in the rules as I mentioned in one of my earlier threads.

Zik has a problem with getting used the C, but you can solve most of that problem by buying Corsairs instead of Cutlass. I know that you can't defend aggainst Xan ppl then but well.....then defend aggainst the other races heh, and its better to use that C on something than to waste it by not using it.

cbk

[MAdnRisKy]

zik with excess C = lol

clippers?

[cbk100]

lots of cutters = soaking up lots of metal

cbk

[DarkCroW]

Clippers are nice as C sink and they do a good job, but u have to build 1 clipper for 1 cutter to get a good ratio of M/C if u dont build Cutlass (which are needed as an alliance player) and thats quite to much for a good ZIK fleet.

Clipper are useless in attack vs CAT (get blocked and u need as much FR as possible to break through BW).

They are useless vs XAN cause their T3 ALL mostly targets FI.

They are good to attack Terrans and ZIKs.

BUT still u need to much of them to sink Crystal to afford enough FI/FR. So Cutter should better be 4500/2500 instead of 5500/1500 or the ****ing Universe should get more MetalRoids ^^

[cbk100]

hehe nahhh I don't need cutlass as an alliance player. It doesn't matter that much if you buy cutlass or corsairs. Both types of fleets can be used in def (cutlass aggainst Xan and corsairs aggainst the other). I know that cutlass is a better ship, but you can't afford that M/C ratio so stay away from it.

Clippers are nice and I usualy have a whole fleet of them to attack a Teran/cath/zik planet every night.

cbk

[starbreeze]

so cbk...what zik ships do u need as an alliance player?

[cbk100]

For all races you need ships so that you can make 2 attack fleets and 1 defense fleet to be an alliance player (some will say 1 attack and 2 def and if you want to discuss that matter then PM cbk on IRC and take a serious discussion, cause such a discussion is not easy to have here on AD cause it needs much discussion back and forth).

If we are only to discuss zik then I would say you need a rather big Cutter/and pods ofc. fleet. This fleet is used to attack a Xan or if you combine it with a few clippers you can attack a cath or zik who is kinda heavy on FI/CO (not many of those but they are there). With the other attack fleet you have clippers combined with a few cutters and ofc. pods. With that fleet you attack a Terran, Cath or a zik.
In your def fleet you have your corsairs(build to soak up C as said earlier)

This is a very simple zik strategy and it works VERY well. I don't really unnderstand why it should be difficult to play zik cause with this strategy even my old grand dad can play them even though he can't see and is retarded.

cbk