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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 11:31   #1
All Systems Go
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American Guilt

I was thinking last night about America and the world and I was considering if condemnation of Americas actions were justifiable. I mean of course from an idealistic point of view a lot of their actions can be harshly condemned. But how much is America responsible itself?

In a world capitalist system it is dog-eat-dog. If America wasn't performing these actions then another country would be doing them instead (different places and reasons taken considered). If America said "we shall abide by international law ad treat other countries fairly" what would be the result? It would mean a drop in profits for its major corporations, they would export less, jobs would be lost etc... So by the rules of the game (which the dominant superpower can change to suit their particular needs, rule #1) they have little option.

If the president didn't use American power (both in a political and military sense) then he would not be working for the interests of the people who matter (those who vote with money rather than the ballot box) and he would be removed, just like the CEO of a company whose competitors have just required an edge by shipping their factories/call-centres overseas to pay 2p a day rather than minimum wage.

Whilst people should be appalled at these actions it should be noted that America is not the Great Satan but rather just its current incarnation and once it has lost its influence another will take its place and will perform exactly the same actions (world placement, current socio-economic and ideological situation).

What I'm basically saying is, is time spent complaining about US actions just time wasted not talking about the actual cause of these actions? Should a poor man be condemned for stealing food when it is the world that forces him to do so to stay alive? Is this how pro-Capitalists/imperialists defend their system?

I would like to end with my favourite stereotypical black pimp quote,

Hate the Game, not the Player.
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 12:36   #2
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Re: American Guilt

i dont know. it doesnt has to be that way. you can be an economical superpower without acting like a spoiled child. look at the chinese. they may not be their yet, but they already have enough economical power to easily blow up the entire us economy.
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 13:31   #3
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Re: American Guilt

the problem isn't that they are the dominant world empire


the problem is that they don't do it very well.
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 13:43   #4
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Re: American Guilt

I agree. People are too concerned with the people doing the bad things instead of the bad things themselfs. Look at Bush, lot's of leftwingers in Europe (at least in Norway) wanted Kerry instead. I don't see a big difference, of course there would be some things better, but that would mainly be for American people themselfs (Abortionlaws, gay rights to name two), issues that don't really affect us. Kerry would be (and Clinton was) just as much a puppet for the wealthy and wicked as Bush. Clinton went to war, and no way in hell Kerry would bring the troops back from Iraq.

It's like in Norway, there are these horrible new asylum laws and regulations, but nobody attacks them properly, instead they make jokes about how fat the minister that is mainly responsible for it is. This made probably a lot of leftists academians smile, but the people don't give a ****.

The things that "need" (or the things I want) to change can't be changed by voting in some new people, giving the power to somebody else or change who "rules" the world. It does not matter, America is no "worse" or better then for instance Norway on many things (Iraq, Afganisthan). In fact, Norwegian authorothies are in many ways much worse then America. The system "needs" to be changed, not the people who are in front of it.
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 17:01   #5
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Re: American Guilt

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
the problem isn't that they are the dominant world empire


the problem is that they don't do it very well.
Certainly not nearly as well as the British did when they had their turn.
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 17:24   #6
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Re: American Guilt

It's unfortunate that there weren't internet forums for people of previous eras. I'm sure they would have many more complaints than anyone does now (and they would be based on reality).
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 17:26   #7
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Re: American Guilt

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texan
Certainly not nearly as well as the British did when they had their turn.
A lot more americans wouldn't have their heads up their arses if we were still in control and don't you forget it.
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 18:23   #8
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Re: American Guilt

is it just me or does anyone else think texan exists only to troll?

empires come and go. the vikings, the romans, the british and im sure america will be no exception to this.
What matters is what the empire does for the good of the world in this time, rather then just for itself
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 18:44   #9
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Re: American Guilt

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
If we all know that Capitalism is what's wrong with the world then that perhaps is progress.
Don't worry, I will take your share of the blame. I think Capitalism is quit a good thing. I think that the US does a number of things better than anyone else in the world.
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 18:46   #10
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Re: American Guilt

what does capitalism have to do with it? sure, Bush, Rummy etc did some favours, but in general i dont think that if US would be some stalinist regime (or whatever) it would have just as much strategical or economical interest in the middle east.
and yes, Clinton was somewhat worse (because he was a better politician). he could have done the same things as Bush, but would have been able to sell it as liberation or whatever to the rest of the world.
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 19:21   #11
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Re: American Guilt

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Well as ASG pointed out you shouldn't blame America specifically for the state of the world if it wasn't them it would be some one else. That's not the same as saying you hsoudl ignore their crimes though.

Also Wu Trax I think I and Dante have said it about 100 times now and it would be nice if you paid some attention. STALINISM IS NOT THE OPPOSITE TO CAPITALISM OR THE NATURAL REPLACEMENT IN ITS ABSESENCE FS!
i sadi stalinism for lack of a better example. as long as countries exist these countries will have strategic interest in other regions.nothing to do with capitalism.
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 21:23   #12
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Re: American Guilt

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
When you say capitalism is a good thing, what do you mean by that?
My belief is that capitalism (as practiced in the US, not unbridled capitalism such as drug dealing) is the most efficient method of producing the most economic prosperity for the most people. Governments aren't and never have been and never will be efficient at allocating resources and production.
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 21:42   #13
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Re: American Guilt

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
I think your wrong but feel free to give some examples of things which motivate US foreign policy in the Middle East aside from the needs of global capital.
no matter what economical system, a developed country always needs oil. to occupy a country is an easy way to gain access to it, especially if that country is loacted in an area with maybe 50% of the worlds oil reserves. you can set up a puppet government and put as many forces there as you want, just to make sure that noone but you can mess around in that area.
i see no relation to capitalism in that. other countries may try other methods besides military intervention, but my guess it that it more depends on the pople who live in that country than on the economical system. Could you imagine the EU (alone) invading another country? we are just as capitalist as the usa after all.
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 23:58   #14
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Re: American Guilt

my point is that those 'few' dont need to be capitalists, they dont even need to be just a few. people have been killing each other for land, resources and power since ... forever.
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Unread 13 Aug 2005, 00:19   #15
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Re: American Guilt

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
although of course you already know that the US has some of the highest government interference in the economy in the world.
It does? internally?

Sources? Links?
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Unread 13 Aug 2005, 00:45   #16
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Re: American Guilt

We all (including the citzens of the US) can do something about America's influence, just stop buying American goods, opt to buy anything but US goods

As has been stated the real power is with big business, if we dont feed them, then they will influence the US gov in a way that will improve their sales, ie in a way that we want the US to act.

I know its not much,and would pretty much be a long term stratedgy, but it would work.
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Unread 13 Aug 2005, 00:55   #17
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Re: American Guilt

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texan
Certainly not nearly as well as the British did when they had their turn.
this may well be the most intelligent thing you have ever said

"out of the mouths of babes"
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Unread 13 Aug 2005, 01:03   #18
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Re: American Guilt

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Also Wu Trax I think I and Dante have said it about 100 times now and it would be nice if you paid some attention. STALINISM IS NOT THE OPPOSITE TO CAPITALISM OR THE NATURAL REPLACEMENT IN ITS ABSESENCE FS!
i agree with your assesment of the problem.

i do feel that it is capitalism.

unlike you and D i see capitalism as a beast. like all beasts (the ones i shoot, hunt and eat) it is necessary. one needs horses to pull carriages.

but beasts can not be trusted on their own. they must be managed. harnessed.

capitalism is no different. the modern flaw is a belief that capitalism has become 'tame'. that it is safe. that it will do good on it's own: worse, that we can trust it. this is false. my answer, as is the way with all long term answers, is not simple. it lacks the glamour, the excitement, the pure sex of rebellious socialism.

boring but true. not a bad maxim for us i feel.
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Unread 13 Aug 2005, 01:32   #19
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Re: American Guilt

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texan
Certainly not nearly as well as the British did when they had their turn.
An excellent point. When you're #1 everyone hates you. Simple as that.
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Unread 13 Aug 2005, 01:36   #20
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Re: American Guilt

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Originally Posted by QazokRouge5
An excellent point. When you're #1 everyone hates you. Simple as that.
and if you wish to stay number 1 you listen. you hear.

you act when necessary. harsh when called for, soft and deferential othertimes.

inflexibility leads to a short reign.

at this rate sweden's empire will have lasted longer than america's.
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Unread 13 Aug 2005, 01:38   #21
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Re: American Guilt

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Originally Posted by Yahwe
and if you wish to stay number 1 you listen. you hear.

you act when necessary. harsh when called for, soft and deferential othertimes.

inflexibility leads to a short reign.

at this rate sweden's empire will have lasted longer than america's.
"So, you want to rule a successful Empire..." By Yahwe, The Authority of Empires
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Unread 13 Aug 2005, 01:40   #22
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Re: American Guilt

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Originally Posted by QazokRouge5
"So, you want to rule a successful Empire..." By Yahwe, The Authority of Empires
the past has much to teach.
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Unread 13 Aug 2005, 01:42   #23
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Re: American Guilt

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Originally Posted by Yahwe
the past has much to teach.
I require elaboration.
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Unread 13 Aug 2005, 01:49   #24
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Re: American Guilt

yes.

you do
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Unread 13 Aug 2005, 06:05   #25
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Re: American Guilt

You don't need to be inflexible when the world can do nothing but complain in internet forums.
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Unread 13 Aug 2005, 10:38   #26
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Re: American Guilt

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Originally Posted by Cuddley_Battleship
You don't need to be inflexible when the world can do nothing but complain in internet forums.
You're my idle.

Pure and utter brilliance. One day, people are gonna write books about you.
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Yeah bro, make that twat get the jelly.

Don't act like you weren't thinking the same thing...

you should stop posting on these forums as you're CRAP
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Unread 13 Aug 2005, 10:47   #27
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Re: American Guilt

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuddley_Battleship
You don't need to be inflexible when the world can do nothing but complain in internet forums.
..or drive large planes into ugly towers.

There is always a limit to how much shit you can pull off in too a short time-span.
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Unread 13 Aug 2005, 13:09   #28
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Re: American Guilt

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Whilst people should be appalled at these actions it should be noted that America is not the Great Satan but rather just its current incarnation.
Quotes like this are silly and only serve to destroy your posts credability. Exactly which of the other 'Great Satans' do you think America is morally comparable to?

Last edited by Nodrog; 13 Aug 2005 at 13:15.
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Unread 13 Aug 2005, 13:26   #29
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Re: American Guilt

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
I think your wrong but feel free to give some examples of things which motivate US foreign policy in the Middle East aside from the needs of global capital.
National security would be the most obvious reason, which includes trying to prevent the large-scale nuclear/chemical attack that seems almost inevitable within 100 years. But I'm more curious about how you think 'global capital' (whatever that means) has benefitted from America's middle east policy, in particular allowing the nationalization (read: theft) of Western oil.
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Unread 13 Aug 2005, 14:04   #30
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Re: American Guilt

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Quotes like this are silly and only serve to destroy your posts credability. Exactly which of the other 'Great Satans' do you think America is morally comparable to?
Quoting people out of context only serves to destroy your credibility.

If you had actualy bothered to finish reading the sentence and cutting it off halfway though you would know exactly what I was saying.

America is seen in many places as being the Great Satan, by this I mean it is only doing what it needs to do to stay ahead of the competition by (poor quality) empire building, which unsurprisingly a lot of people (especially in these countries) oppose. the methods used are harsh and generally involve the supporting of violent right-wing dictators and large losses of life.

When America falls and another word power (possibly China) takes over they will do the same type of thing just using different methods.

But then again, you already knew that was what I was saying.


troll.
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Unread 13 Aug 2005, 14:24   #31
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Re: American Guilt

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Quoting people out of context only serves to destroy your credibility.
it's alright he hasn't had any credibility since he said "build tarantulars"

nodrog is the gerald ratner of the internet
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Unread 13 Aug 2005, 19:22   #32
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Exclamation Re: American Guilt

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
In response to Hyfe on the point of US government intervention. I would point out that the US budget is something rediculous like $2 trillion making it possibly the largest concentration of capital in history, that's quite a bit of economic muscle.
Not in historical context (adjusting for inflation and the growth of the US economy), no. The US budget, as a percentage of GDP was much higher during WWII (~40% of GDP). It was also higher in the 1980s (~22%) than it is today (~19%).
Quote:
Furthermore a cursory examination of the technology industry reveals to us how dependent it has been on Government money. Aside from the millions going into purchases of military hardware, all the major R&D takes place care of the Pentagon. Computers, Aeroplanes, the Internet, Robots, Nuclear power, satellite technology and a host of other key inventions of the 20th century weren't developed by plucky entrepreneurs but by the military with public money.

America tried low interference during the 20s and we got huge economic recession. It wasn't until WW2 when the US goverment like other government's took complete control of the economy that they realised this was the only way to make capitalism float. Since then Government intervention has been keeping the system from destroying itself.
That's humorous. Government intervention is certainly high in the US, but not compared to Europe. In terms of government spending as a percentage of GDP, it's 12% lower in the US than in the EU15. Not coincidently, I would argue, we've had 50% higher economic growth in the past 10 years, significantly lower unemployment (3% lower), and higher productivity (140%, GDP per capita). Government intervention in the economy is rarely productive, and the reason we're doing as well as we are compared to Europe is that we have a lot less of it then you do. But hey, if you really think otherwise then, by all means, maintain or increase your government spending even higher. We don't need any more competition; we have our hands full with the asian economies!
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Unread 13 Aug 2005, 19:56   #33
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Re: American Guilt

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
this may well be the most intelligent thing you have ever said

"out of the mouths of babes"
It's either the most intelligent thing I have ever said or a troll. Or maybe both.
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Unread 13 Aug 2005, 21:18   #34
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Re: American Guilt

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Ok we are getting into actual Marxism now.

On your second point as it says in The Communist Manifesto:

"The history of all hitherto existing society [2] is the history of class struggles.

Freeman and slave, patrician and plebian, lord and serf, guild-master [3] and journeyman, in a word, oppressor and oppressed, stood in constant opposition to one another, carried on an uninterrupted, now hidden, now open fight, a fight that each time ended, either in a revolutionary reconstitution of society at large, or in the common ruin of the contending classes.

In the earlier epochs of history, we find almost everywhere a complicated arrangement of society into various orders, a manifold gradation of social rank. In ancient Rome we have patricians, knights, plebians, slaves; in the Middle Ages, feudal lords, vassals, guild-masters, journeymen, apprentices, serfs; in almost all of these classes, again, subordinate gradations.

The modern bourgeois society that has sprouted from the ruins of feudal society has not done away with class antagonisms. It has but established new classes, new conditions of oppression, new forms of struggle in place of the old ones."

And you'll like this bit:

"The bourgeoisie, by the rapid improvement of all instruments of production, by the immensely facilitated means of communication, draws all, even the most barbarian, nations into civilization. The cheap prices of commodities are the heavy artillery with which it forces the barbarians' intensely obstinate hatred of foreigners to capitulate. It compels all nations, on pain of extinction, to adopt the bourgeois mode of production; it compels them to introduce what it calls civilization into their midst, i.e., to become bourgeois themselves. In one word, it creates a world after its own image."

So I hope we are slightly clearer. How anyone can claim to be a serious economics student without even reading the Manifesto (apart from anything it is wonderfully short) amazes me, because really that's all they teach in economics classes.
thats nice, but i thik you are still missing my point. i try saying it another way: even you utopian, anarchist hippy-community needs bloody oil !!!
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Unread 14 Aug 2005, 01:10   #35
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Re: American Guilt

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Quoting people out of context only serves to destroy your credibility.

If you had actualy bothered to finish reading the sentence and cutting it off halfway though you would know exactly what I was saying..
You said "America is not the Great Satan, but rather just its current incarnation". This seems to imply that you view America as being morally equivalent to previous empires. I'm now asking which specific ones you think are seriously comparable to the US.

Your whole post is based around the claim that America is just doing 'what any country would do'. But it seems to me that America's "empire building" is not really on the same scale as (eg) Britian or Rome, nor is there the widescale slaughter that would be likely if a country like Soviet Russia or China were the dominant superpower. So, what is your basis for suggesting that 'any superpower' would act like America?

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Unread 14 Aug 2005, 12:45   #36
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Re: American Guilt

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
You said "America is not the Great Satan, but rather just its current incarnation". This seems to imply that you view America as being morally equivalent to previous empires. I'm now asking which specific ones you think are seriously comparable to the US.

Your whole post is based around the claim that America is just doing 'what any country would do'. But it seems to me that America's "empire building" is not really on the same scale as (eg) Britian or Rome, nor is there the widescale slaughter that would be likely if a country like Soviet Russia or China were the dominant superpower. So, what is your basis for suggesting that 'any superpower' would act like America?
Different strokes for different folks.

America is using its power and influence to try to shape the world into one that benefits the US above all others. If any other countries were in the same situation they would do the same sort of thing. that is the nature of the beast. I used the phrase 'Great Satan' as that is a phrase popular with opponents of US foreign policy (especially in the Middle East). My point was that even if America was removed then another superpower would take its place.

Of course methods change but that depends on which country it is and the ideology behind it.

I don't think moral comparisons are of any use. 'America is better than Saddam Hussein as he killed hundreds of thousands of his people and America only killed 25,000'. Once you start making moral comparisons it can become justification for horrors that aren't quite as bad as someone elses.

Different powers use different methods for different reasons under different conditions.
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Unread 14 Aug 2005, 12:49   #37
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Re: American Guilt

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Different strokes for different folks.

Different powers use different methods for different reasons under different conditions.
But it's all the same.
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Unread 14 Aug 2005, 15:20   #38
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Re: American Guilt

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Different strokes for different folks.

America is using its power and influence to try to shape the world into one that benefits the US above all others. If any other countries were in the same situation they would do the same sort of thing. that is the nature of the beast. .
But what is the 'same sort of thing'? Did the Soviet Union do the same sort of thing as America? What about Nazi Germany, France under Napoleon, the Brits, or Imperial Japan? It seems to me that America is involved in a qualititively different 'sort of thing' than these superpowers, but I'm curious what your views are.

If the Soviet Union were in America's position just now, do you really think that most of the Middle East would still be standing?


Quote:
I don't think moral comparisons are of any use. 'America is better than Saddam Hussein as he killed hundreds of thousands of his people and America only killed 25,000'. Once you start making moral comparisons it can become justification for horrors that aren't quite as bad as someone elses.
Well perhaps, but I think we can still make comments like "The Romans, Hitler and Napoleon desired the conquest of as much as the world as possible no matter the cost, whereas America's 'warmongering' has been limited to a few small-scale interventions in countries which were already under totalitarian rule" without risking the justification of too many atrocities.

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Unread 14 Aug 2005, 18:24   #39
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Re: American Guilt

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
But what is the 'same sort of thing'? Did the Soviet Union do the same sort of thing as America? What about Nazi Germany, France under Napoleon, the Brits, or Imperial Japan? It seems to me that America is involved in a qualititively different 'sort of thing' than these superpowers, but I'm curious what your views are.
Read the previous sentence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
If the Soviet Union were in America's position just now, do you really think that most of the Middle East would still be standing?
Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Of course methods change but that depends on which country it is and the ideology behind it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Well perhaps, but I think we can still make comments like "The Romans, Hitler and Napoleon desired the conquest of as much as the world as possible no matter the cost, whereas America's 'warmongering' has been limited to a few small-scale interventions in countries which were already under totalitarian rule" without risking the justification of too many atrocities.
this has absoutly nothing to do with my original post. I was not attempting to make any sort of moral comparisons with anyone nor do I wish to start now. Yes, some empires were worse than others but that is no justification for actions by the current world power to do as it pleases.
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