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25 Jul 2005, 21:37
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#1
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No more, No less.
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Espoo, Finland
Posts: 119
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Official G-II Announcement.
Most of us are aware of a specific website and the list of specific coordinates it included.
We cant believe the hype this has caused.
firstly, there prob havent been a round when someones' coords lists were either stolen by hacking into their DB, or in another way.
During the past few hours we have a numerous times been called names and people have been threatening the alliance saying the rest of the universe will declare war on our 14-people-alliance as we're now.
Anyway, there are some things we need to correct:
1) no g-ii member ever hacked to anyone's db, be it ND's or APA's or anyone else's. someone just had a kid moving away and they forgot to take the back door key away. its as simple as that. we've seen worse.
2) as stated above, we cant see why the PA Team or anyone else could have a reason to delete anyones account.
3)the person who did this has as far as i know explain the whole deal, and we cant find a reason why we should kick him out of the alliance just because a bunch of people ( a couple of tens) tell us thats what we should do and that we have broken some rules. we havent.
It is a war game, and war aint ethical. Harrism stays. point made.
Hesekiel / Vader
the G-II
__________________
And the Strong were separated from the weak
Genesis-2
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25 Jul 2005, 21:47
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#2
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Andre LiNoGe
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Coventry, UK
Posts: 21
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Re: Official G-II Announcement.
make war not love eh
pld Heskey
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25 Jul 2005, 21:50
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#3
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Sir peon to you
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 275
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Re: Official G-II Announcement.
Just ignore the drama queens.
__________________
Šragon to the Death!
"The only easy day was yesterday."
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25 Jul 2005, 21:58
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#4
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Hamster
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Crewe, England
Posts: 3,606
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Re: Official G-II Announcement.
Its one thing to obtain the intel, its another to publish it for all to see. Thats a cowardly and dispicable act especially seeing as there seems to be no reason for doing so. If he had a grudge agaisnt APA or NewDawn then then it might be understandable BUT the fact that he left in the co-ords for every other alliance that these alliances had intel on clearly shows there was no justification for it.
By supporting his actions like this your dragging G-II name through the mud and are actually failing your members by bringing them unnesccary conflict that you cant really win
__________________
Wakey
PD and Suggestions Moderator
Co-founder of [F-Crew]
The Farnborough Crew
Cos anything else is just an alliance
Join our public channel at #f-crew
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25 Jul 2005, 22:01
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#5
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No more, No less.
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Espoo, Finland
Posts: 119
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Re: Official G-II Announcement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
Its one thing to obtain the intel, its another to publish it for all to see. Thats a cowardly and dispicable act especially seeing as there seems to be no reason for doing so. If he had a grudge agaisnt APA or NewDawn then then it might be understandable BUT the fact that he left in the co-ords for every other alliance that these alliances had intel on clearly shows there was no justification for it.
By supporting his actions like this your dragging G-II name through the mud and are actually failing your members by bringing them unnesccary conflict that you cant really win
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G-II never published any coords in public.
__________________
And the Strong were separated from the weak
Genesis-2
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25 Jul 2005, 22:03
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#6
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 23
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Re: Official G-II Announcement.
im not sure making a new topic was a wise idea, I dont really want to have to give an account of my actions again. Lets just leave it with you want me to stay in g2, I'll stay and do as you command, Ive already applogised to you personally about all this.
zo0f: Ive had enough.
__________________
R2 - R4 Zeus (til death)
R4 G-II / Shadow
R4 Elysium
R5 - R6 Cluster only
R6 - R14 G-II / disbanded / merge
R9.5 - R13 Newdawn
R14 - G-II, I hope you guys go on.
R14 - my last pa round.
Thankyou Troll.
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25 Jul 2005, 22:05
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#7
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 23
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Re: Official G-II Announcement.
wakey: I never published it publicly, someone else did that; someone I wrongly trusted with the info, im trying to get to the bottom of this right now. Everyone's protecting everyone else, I wont find the source, I believe I know where it came from but I dont want to distrust those people. Im just sorry I let it out to them.
__________________
R2 - R4 Zeus (til death)
R4 G-II / Shadow
R4 Elysium
R5 - R6 Cluster only
R6 - R14 G-II / disbanded / merge
R9.5 - R13 Newdawn
R14 - G-II, I hope you guys go on.
R14 - my last pa round.
Thankyou Troll.
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25 Jul 2005, 22:16
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#8
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Retired
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Rogaland, Norway
Posts: 642
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Re: Official G-II Announcement.
God have mercy on your planet ^^
__________________
Of all the things I've lost I miss my mind the most
-Elysium Officer
[1up] Senior MO
Retired
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25 Jul 2005, 22:27
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#9
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Its time to roll the dice
Join Date: May 2002
Location: The barn
Posts: 876
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Re: Official G-II Announcement.
Can someone pin-point a picture of that drama-lama?
__________________
Real life peon.
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25 Jul 2005, 22:29
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#10
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Retired
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Rogaland, Norway
Posts: 642
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Re: Official G-II Announcement.
__________________
Of all the things I've lost I miss my mind the most
-Elysium Officer
[1up] Senior MO
Retired
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25 Jul 2005, 22:36
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#11
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Its time to roll the dice
Join Date: May 2002
Location: The barn
Posts: 876
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Re: Official G-II Announcement.
Thanks.
__________________
Real life peon.
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25 Jul 2005, 22:38
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#12
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Most unimportant guy...
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Kvinesdal
Posts: 1,393
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Re: Official G-II Announcement.
So, you had a good time in ND last 3-4 rounds Harrism?
__________________
When we discover the centre of the universe, alot of people will be shocked and dissapointed to know that they are not it!
Retired
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25 Jul 2005, 22:49
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#13
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 11
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Re: Official G-II Announcement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRat
God have mercy on your planet ^^
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Really good one^^ true too
Last edited by yada-yada; 25 Jul 2005 at 23:14.
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25 Jul 2005, 22:55
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#14
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This is bat country
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Norway
Posts: 1,693
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Re: Official G-II Announcement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harrism
wakey: I never published it publicly, someone else did that; someone I wrongly trusted with the info, im trying to get to the bottom of this right now. Everyone's protecting everyone else, I wont find the source, I believe I know where it came from but I dont want to distrust those people. Im just sorry I let it out to them.
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I am so glad you are on the case. Im sure everyone will be thrilled at this point, Matlock
__________________
Burįrum!
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25 Jul 2005, 23:03
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#15
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Aria's TeddyBear :p
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Rhode Island, USA
Posts: 516
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Re: Official G-II Announcement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRat
God have mercy on your planet ^^
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they'll need all the help they can get
__________________
Proud to be have been Fyre, NewDawn, NoS - The Illuminati, [ 1u p]
R3 [Acid] peon
R4 - R7 [Fyre] HC
R7 - R8 [ND] HC
R8 - R13 [NoS] MC
R14 - R16 [ 1u p] MO
R17 Retired
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25 Jul 2005, 23:06
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#16
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Retired
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Rogaland, Norway
Posts: 642
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Re: Official G-II Announcement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doorsdown
they'll need all the help they can get
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True Story.
__________________
Of all the things I've lost I miss my mind the most
-Elysium Officer
[1up] Senior MO
Retired
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25 Jul 2005, 23:33
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#17
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 23
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Re: Official G-II Announcement.
So, you had a good time in ND last 3-4 rounds Harrism?
Yeah I did, til Riddim, beste and ma (argh, cant remember his nick, im sorry) It was a wonderful alliance. Im sorry the day they stepped down. That was a sad day, but we live on.
I bow, I will expect your fleets in the next few hours. :-)
Thankyou, I didnt expect this to go unpunished.
__________________
R2 - R4 Zeus (til death)
R4 G-II / Shadow
R4 Elysium
R5 - R6 Cluster only
R6 - R14 G-II / disbanded / merge
R9.5 - R13 Newdawn
R14 - G-II, I hope you guys go on.
R14 - my last pa round.
Thankyou Troll.
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26 Jul 2005, 01:27
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#18
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Evil inside
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,631
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Re: Official G-II Announcement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hesekiel
G-II never published any coords in public.
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One of your members just effectivly did so.
If I were you, I would be a bit afraid that ND and APA would as*rap* you til there is no more lubricant in the universe.
Making intel public is a way of pointing nose at people. Freelance individuals might do it without much cost, people whom are in alliances... well, someone might pay for it.
__________________
<Germania>but you called Fury a bully, and that is terribly unfair
<Hicks>Occassionally individuals do things without Executive consent
<Dreadnought>You cant whois on Eclipse server without a registered nic, which mr ****stirrer doesnt have.
<Almeida> well i like to grow fat myself too, and when i have enough ships then i can engage in big battles
<Nantoz> Zhukov for Lord Protector!
<Jakiri> (Windows)XP was fine on release
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26 Jul 2005, 10:40
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#19
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Angels for life !
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,269
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Re: Official G-II Announcement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
Its one thing to obtain the intel, its another to publish it for all to see. Thats a cowardly and dispicable act especially seeing as there seems to be no reason for doing so. If he had a grudge agaisnt APA or NewDawn then then it might be understandable BUT the fact that he left in the co-ords for every other alliance that these alliances had intel on clearly shows there was no justification for it.
By supporting his actions like this your dragging G-II name through the mud and are actually failing your members by bringing them unnesccary conflict that you cant really win
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there is nothing cowardish and dispicable about publishing a coord list. Those list are often used for negotiations between alliances and alot of alliances trade intel with eachother.
So it would be naļve to think those actions are ok but publishing a list isn't...
Only fault they made is that the intel is public property now rather then a bargain tool for them to retrieve other intel when they decide to trade with another alliance.
__________________
Former Angels CEO/HC - retired! as of round 16.
FAnG Founder | CEO/HC | Ex Gaming Community Senate
Furious Angels Gaming community
FA Gaming community
No need for a disclaimer ...
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26 Jul 2005, 10:52
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#20
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'cause sex isn't enough
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 115
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Re: Official G-II Announcement.
I find it rather funny to see this happening to APA as they did the same with coven-coord list last round. Only difference I see is that APA obviously did it intentionally while Harrism never intended on giving it to the mass.
*points and laughs at APA*
Ah well.. it's still sad there's some much commotion about this.
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26 Jul 2005, 10:59
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#21
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pe0n
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Kindom of the Netherlands
Posts: 1,347
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Re: Official G-II Announcement.
If anyone gains access to someone elses computer withouut permission (even if that doesn't take hacking) then isn't that illegal. And if so, the user agreement doesn't allow it. Why isn't anyone closed yet?
__________________
round 5 noob
round 6 noob
round 7 noob: rank 6.198 25:20:25 - VoC member
round 8 noob: rank 4.112 7:2:3 - TFD member
round 9 rank 941 23:1:9 - TFD HC
round 9.5 rank 860 22:7:3 - TFD HC
round 10: rank unknown (was #1 for a while) 5:2:5 - Vengeance pe0n
round 10.5: rank 683 19:10:2 - VGN member
round 11: rank 138 8:8:4 - VsN member
round 12: rank 515 - VGN 'special attack officer' -> jumped ship to Rock
round 13: rank 85: NoS
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26 Jul 2005, 11:12
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#22
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'cause sex isn't enough
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 115
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Re: Official G-II Announcement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerbie
If anyone gains access to someone elses computer withouut permission (even if that doesn't take hacking) then isn't that illegal. And if so, the user agreement doesn't allow it. Why isn't anyone closed yet?
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So sad..
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26 Jul 2005, 11:16
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#23
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No more, No less.
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Espoo, Finland
Posts: 119
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Re: Official G-II Announcement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerbie
If anyone gains access to someone elses computer withouut permission (even if that doesn't take hacking) then isn't that illegal. And if so, the user agreement doesn't allow it. Why isn't anyone closed yet?
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he did have the permission.
__________________
And the Strong were separated from the weak
Genesis-2
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26 Jul 2005, 11:21
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#24
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Most unimportant guy...
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Kvinesdal
Posts: 1,393
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Re: Official G-II Announcement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harrism
wakey: I never published it publicly, someone else did that; someone I wrongly trusted with the info, im trying to get to the bottom of this right now. Everyone's protecting everyone else, I wont find the source, I believe I know where it came from but I dont want to distrust those people. Im just sorry I let it out to them.
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How does it feel to be betrayed?
__________________
When we discover the centre of the universe, alot of people will be shocked and dissapointed to know that they are not it!
Retired
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26 Jul 2005, 11:22
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#25
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Most unimportant guy...
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Kvinesdal
Posts: 1,393
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Re: Official G-II Announcement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doorsdown
they'll need all the help they can get
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doubt they'll get much :P
__________________
When we discover the centre of the universe, alot of people will be shocked and dissapointed to know that they are not it!
Retired
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26 Jul 2005, 11:32
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#26
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Hamster
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Crewe, England
Posts: 3,606
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Re: Official G-II Announcement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjeldoran
there is nothing cowardish and dispicable about publishing a coord list. Those list are often used for negotiations between alliances and alot of alliances trade intel with eachother.
So it would be naļve to think those actions are ok but publishing a list isn't...
Only fault they made is that the intel is public property now rather then a bargain tool for them to retrieve other intel when they decide to trade with another alliance.
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Gaining and using peoples membership lists isnt cowardly and dispicable but thats not what they did. What they did was obtain a list and because of a grudge against a couple of people publish it publically for everyone to see which has resulted in them damaging a number of innconcent peoples rounds. Its this that makes it cowardly and dispicable and extreamly underhand.
Spys and alliance HC's have a responsability to use the intel in a responsable manner not hand it out to any tom dick or harry to publish where they like. G-II as a whole (and those who are suporting this action) have broken this 'code of honour' that should exists and potentially damaged the round significantly for a a bunch of innconcent because of their jumped up ego thinking that the 9th and 12th placed alliances would be bothered about their insignifcant 13 member alliance
__________________
Wakey
PD and Suggestions Moderator
Co-founder of [F-Crew]
The Farnborough Crew
Cos anything else is just an alliance
Join our public channel at #f-crew
Last edited by wakey; 26 Jul 2005 at 11:37.
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26 Jul 2005, 11:32
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#27
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Commodore
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 3,176
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Re: Official G-II Announcement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerbie
If anyone gains access to someone elses computer withouut permission (even if that doesn't take hacking) then isn't that illegal. And if so, the user agreement doesn't allow it. Why isn't anyone closed yet?
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There are potentially multiple breaches of the EULA based on what i know of the incident (which isnt much).
Such as:
Quote:
Originally Posted by EULA
Secton 18.4. Abuse
(a) Abuse is considered as anything offensive to another player or to an admin.
(e) Depending on the circumstance, abuse will result in a warning or in Account closure.
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Thus, if the action was deemed to be abuse, or abusive, by either another player or an admin, that would be grounds for either a warning and/or account closure. Granted, the EULA tends to refer to verbal messages and thus the consideration 'The definitions of abuse are, but are not limited to: ' could be interpreted ejusdem generis to mean verbal et al abuse and not the abuse of a loophole in a security system, however a literal interpretation could include that.
Or;
Quote:
Originally Posted by EULA
Section 18.5
(c) You are also not allowed to have scripts in in-game system which will gain you an advantage in the game, or disrupt any computer systems other than your own.
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This section could apply in this case, however the method that aquired the APA/ND co-ords was not necessarily a 'script' , nor was it necessarily 'in-game', and it could be argued that the system wasnt disrupted though it was compromised.
The best argument would be the following;
Quote:
Originally Posted by EULA
Section 18.6 Miscellaneous Cheating
(c) As newer methods of cheating are discovered, you authorise us to interpret all data logged about your account towards detecting these methods. Actions which are deemed to be cheating are not restricted to the list given on this EULA and may be added to at any time, and you authorise us to do so.
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So, if the admins decide the hacking into third party (read: Alliance) databases/arbiters/websites et al was undesireable, then this last secion would apply. It is a very powerful legal sentence.
Thus, there are a few avenues for the admins to punish those involved - should they wish to - depending on the interpretation of the sections above.
__________________
#Strategy ; #Support - Sovereign
--- --- ---
"The Cake is a Lie."
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26 Jul 2005, 11:40
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#28
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BlueTuba
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 6,339
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Re: Official G-II Announcement.
Sadly all this legal argument is pointless here - the damage has been done and one planet deleted will not make the slightest bit of difference
ND and APA have to live with it. Simple as. And as a member of ND, I will live with it.
__________________
"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life."
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26 Jul 2005, 12:23
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#29
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Up The Hatters!
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Kenilworth Road
Posts: 3,012
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Re: Official G-II Announcement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hesekiel
he did have the permission.
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heskey, get a grip. He did not have the permission to acc our database, he had no permission to put up a webpage to stream the database, and he had no permission to break into adminpasswords.
to put it simple: He had not the permission at all.
Next time heskey, i recommend you try using something else than gasoline to put out a fire.
__________________
Planetarion veteran
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26 Jul 2005, 12:39
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#30
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 386
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Re: Official G-II Announcement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
heskey, get a grip. He did not have the permission to acc our database, he had no permission to put up a webpage to stream the database, and he had no permission to break into adminpasswords.
to put it simple: He had not the permission at all.
Next time heskey, i recommend you try using something else than gasoline to put out a fire.
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Remember ruining some of f-crew's attacks and no doubt having access to their co-ords too? What goes around comes around i believe is the saying...
He hasn't broken any rules within the game, and as a former APA HC said that spying was merely stretching the morals by which we live by, i don't see a problem with how he got the co-ords. What he did with the co-ords i don't agree with, but at the end of the day what he did with the co-ords was his call. What's done is done, you can't change it so everyone should just get on as normal and stop moaning about it.
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26 Jul 2005, 12:54
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#31
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'cause sex isn't enough
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 115
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Re: Official G-II Announcement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EULA
Secton 18.4. Abuse
(a) Abuse is considered as anything offensive to another player or to an admin.
(e) Depending on the circumstance, abuse will result in a warning or in Account closure.
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What's the standard for something being offensive? If I get 18 ticks of incs straight from one alliance (hi kargool) I find that very offensive. Does this mean those planets get closed? Ofc not.. something being offensive is judged by the person who something is done too and has therefore no real value.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EULA
Section 18.5
(c) You are also not allowed to have scripts in in-game system which will gain you an advantage in the game, or disrupt any computer systems other than your own.
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He did not use anything in-game or in in-game systems, he did not disrupt any computer-systems and he did not personally gain anything by it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EULA
Section 18.6 Miscellaneous Cheating
(c) As newer methods of cheating are discovered, you authorise us to interpret all data logged about your account towards detecting these methods. Actions which are deemed to be cheating are not restricted to the list given on this EULA and may be added to at any time, and you authorise us to do so.
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It is no form of cheating, merely intelligence. Also it is not linked in any way to his account. That this person happens to have his own pa-account is of no interest here.
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26 Jul 2005, 14:31
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#32
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Retired
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Rogaland, Norway
Posts: 642
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Re: Official G-II Announcement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supersander
What's the standard for something being offensive? If I get 18 ticks of incs straight from one alliance (hi kargool) I find that very offensive. Does this mean those planets get closed? Ofc not.. something being offensive is judged by the person who something is done too and has therefore no real value.
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Oh my god, are you for real? Offensive does not mean trash your planet through accepted ways of gameplay. It means using abusive ways to try and destroy your round, such as hacking, dosing, knocking you in the back of the head with a baseball bat, etc.
__________________
Of all the things I've lost I miss my mind the most
-Elysium Officer
[1up] Senior MO
Retired
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26 Jul 2005, 14:51
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#33
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'cause sex isn't enough
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 115
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Re: Official G-II Announcement.
Spying has been an accepted way of gameplay fro some time now too.
No planets got crashed by what was done and i very much doubt any will.
Sure i took it over the top; im just trying to make a point that being offended is in the eye of the beholder.
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26 Jul 2005, 14:56
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#34
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Don't ask, I don't know
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 143
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Re: Official G-II Announcement.
I am sure that ND, as well as [APA] will survive this incident intact. I do however believe that the community as a whole should learn from this incident, and that the admins should revise and perhaps expand the EULA so it better protects the people who are trying to have fun playing this game, from similar incidents in the future.
Not that the admins should be alone in this, it appears to me that the alliances withing this game should roll up their sleeves and start actively promoting a more civilised way of playing, as it is well within their collective influence and power to do so.
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26 Jul 2005, 14:59
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#35
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'cause sex isn't enough
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 115
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Re: Official G-II Announcement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisto
I am sure that ND, as well as [APA] will survive this incident intact. I do however believe that the community as a whole should learn from this incident, and that the admins should revise and perhaps expand the EULA so it better protects the people who are trying to have fun playing this game, from similar incidents in the future.
Not that the admins should be alone in this, it appears to me that the alliances withing this game should roll up their sleeves and start actively promoting a more civilised way of playing, as it is well within their collective influence and power to do so.
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Sorry for bringing it up again, but I didnt hear any APA complaining about that last round when you were going around posting Coven coords-list everywhere you could...
It's part of the game, find a bridge and get over it. Dont go crying now it happened to you.
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26 Jul 2005, 15:10
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#36
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No more, No less.
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Espoo, Finland
Posts: 119
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Re: Official G-II Announcement.
this is funny. ive made about half my overall posts in the past two days.
__________________
And the Strong were separated from the weak
Genesis-2
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26 Jul 2005, 15:31
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#37
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Don't ask, I don't know
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 143
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Re: Official G-II Announcement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supersander
It's part of the game, find a bridge and get over it. Dont go crying now it happened to you.
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We have gotten over it, and we are not crying. But I will not just say "oh well, this is a part of the game". If you just look at the consequences of what happened, you will see that ca 10% of the player population was compromised and negatively affected. Nothing we say can undo what has been done, but it might just prevent it from happening again to someone else! This is not something that should just be accepted with a shrug. This is something the whole community should be looking at. and agreeing that the extent to which spying has become a part of the game, is too great.
Last edited by Kaisto; 26 Jul 2005 at 15:45.
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26 Jul 2005, 15:37
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#38
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[TGV] Wots It
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 135
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Re: Official G-II Announcement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supersander
Sorry for bringing it up again, but I didnt hear any APA complaining about that last round when you were going around posting Coven coords-list everywhere you could...
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I must have missed that.....as I don't recall anyone posting Coven's co-ords in fact I don't recall APA having all that many Coven co-ords until after the declaration of the non-eventual war....
As for the latest incident - tbh my main problem is the release of the co-ords - and that includes the release of the intel gained by both APA & ND - since (at least in the case of APA) not even our own members had access to the co-ords list we had compiled, as we considered it to be sensitive information. I'd also like to point out that although by that stage it was too late to stop any damage being done, as soon as I was made aware of the comprimise of our db security, I removed all co-ords from the db, not just those of APA members.
As for harrism "having permission", at no point did I, or any other APA member give him permission to access the APA account, nor did the System Administrator of the server on which the account is hosted. In fact, the very timing of the act, to coincide with the Admininistrator being on holidays for a week, would indicate otherwise....
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27 Jul 2005, 20:14
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#39
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Puppet Master
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 227
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Re: Official G-II Announcement.
Gonna announce the G-II -> Hydra officially too?
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27 Jul 2005, 20:18
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#40
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No more, No less.
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Espoo, Finland
Posts: 119
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Re: Official G-II Announcement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guran
Gonna announce the G-II -> Hydra officially too?
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nice intel there.
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And the Strong were separated from the weak
Genesis-2
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29 Jul 2005, 13:26
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#41
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lolly roffle
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 5,514
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Re: Official G-II Announcement.
Its quite amusing that everyone is making a big deal out of what was essenatial a spying incident when practically every alliance ever has used spies. Its not the first nor the last time an alliance will give access to someone that is willing to pass on those coords.
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eXcessum
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29 Jul 2005, 13:30
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#42
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part time ghost
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Grimsby
Posts: 925
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Re: Official G-II Announcement.
Not everyone is making a big deal. I was for keeping it quiet
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29 Jul 2005, 13:45
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#43
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Hamster
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Crewe, England
Posts: 3,606
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Re: Official G-II Announcement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JC
Its quite amusing that everyone is making a big deal out of what was essenatial a spying incident when practically every alliance ever has used spies. Its not the first nor the last time an alliance will give access to someone that is willing to pass on those coords.
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As has been explained a number of times its not the spying thats really the issue here, the issue is his iresponsable use of the information afterwards (doesnt matter if he meant for them to leak or not, it was his intel so the buck stops at him) which has resulted in what 100-150 people many of whom WERENT from either alliance that he had a grudge against being screwed over. Hes relased intel to every person in this game which 75% wouldnt have ever got. And we havent even got onto all those secondary people whom get affected by this, all the alliance mates, galaxy mates, and friends.
Hes getting the critism for being naive, petty and irresponsable. He he hadnt trusted people he hardly knew and if he hadnt been so petty to let a problem with a couple of people make him take it out not only these peoples alliance, but also another alliance and every single person not connected with these two that was in their intel db then he might have realised what he was doing and what power he had with it and would have used it in a more responsable and smarter manner and people wouldnt have been half as bothered.
As you said the actual spying is something that goes on all the time and no-one can complain about that and iAPA and ND are responsable for failing from a security pov and they do share some of the blame for causing these problems for everyone in their arbiter but that will never excuse Harrism actions after this
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Wakey
PD and Suggestions Moderator
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29 Jul 2005, 14:28
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#44
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Angels for life !
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,269
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Re: Official G-II Announcement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
As has been explained a number of times its not the spying thats really the issue here, the issue is his iresponsable use of the information afterwards (doesnt matter if he meant for them to leak or not, it was his intel so the buck stops at him) which has resulted in what 100-150 people many of whom WERENT from either alliance that he had a grudge against being screwed over. Hes relased intel to every person in this game which 75% wouldnt have ever got. And we havent even got onto all those secondary people whom get affected by this, all the alliance mates, galaxy mates, and friends.
Hes getting the critism for being naive, petty and irresponsable. He he hadnt trusted people he hardly knew and if he hadnt been so petty to let a problem with a couple of people make him take it out not only these peoples alliance, but also another alliance and every single person not connected with these two that was in their intel db then he might have realised what he was doing and what power he had with it and would have used it in a more responsable and smarter manner and people wouldnt have been half as bothered.
As you said the actual spying is something that goes on all the time and no-one can complain about that and iAPA and ND are responsable for failing from a security pov and they do share some of the blame for causing these problems for everyone in their arbiter but that will never excuse Harrism actions after this
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What is wrong with spreading intel, aside from the fact that it is STUPID to share intel and not gain anything in return? It's their own stupidty that they don't do anything with their intel, but what is so immoral or "not done" about spreading their intel, even to every single person in PA?
I got most 1up coords and they got most of ours (no doubt) ... but what would stop either of us from spreading it?
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29 Jul 2005, 17:50
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#45
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Hamster
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Crewe, England
Posts: 3,606
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Re: Official G-II Announcement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjeldoran
What is wrong with spreading intel, aside from the fact that it is STUPID to share intel and not gain anything in return? It's their own stupidty that they don't do anything with their intel, but what is so immoral or "not done" about spreading their intel, even to every single person in PA?
I got most 1up coords and they got most of ours (no doubt) ... but what would stop either of us from spreading it?
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The problem is there was no tactical advantage to doing so. He had a problem with NewDawn but he didnt have a problem with APA. He also didnt have a problem with any of the other alliances that APA and ND had intel on. So what hes ended up doing either intentionally or by being naive in trusting people he hardly knew is to release extreamly early on intel on a good number of alliances which he had no problem with and which he didnt need to. The outcome here isnt that hes got one over the people in ND he didnt like, but hes ended up causing alot of innocents damage which is where the problem is.
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PD and Suggestions Moderator
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29 Jul 2005, 18:07
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#46
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[TGV] Wots It
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 135
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Re: Official G-II Announcement.
The repercussions both in PA and in the "real" world are what makes this so called "harmless" incident different from the normal run of the mill spying.
In PA we have maybe 10% of the player base co-ords exposed to the greater PA community - many of whom will have paid good money to play....
On top of which, the incident is also going to cost some people finanically in the real world....
so much for harmless....
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29 Jul 2005, 18:12
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#47
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;D!
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,810
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Re: Official G-II Announcement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjeldoran
What is wrong with spreading intel, aside from the fact that it is STUPID to share intel and not gain anything in return?
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I think for Harry's aims, this made more sense, even if it was unintentional: it's actually more effective than using it as a bargaining chip!
Harry had issues with members of ND (Well, all of his issues appeared to be with members of DLR, not ND itself), and simply wanted to damage them.
If he had come to you and offered you ND's coordlist on the sly, would you have committed the firepower he'd want in order to ruin ND's round? We're simply not worth it to any of the alliances that would be skilled enough to obliterate us (except, perhaps Reunion, should they decide they want to get us out of the way) because we're too small, and we're not allied or NAPd to any alliance - so you wouldn't even be removing support for an enemy.
Releasing our coords allows every alliance or solo attacker that doesn't like us to pick a few ND and hit them hard, leading to extremely large levels of incoming that an alliance like ND can't handle (particularly after the pre-round incidents and the fact we're still rebuilding), and thus achieving G-II's aim.
Uh yea, point was, don't think it really was that stupid on Harry's part, I just feel he made an error of judgement in his scattershot approach; summarised by wakey.
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29 Jul 2005, 18:48
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#48
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This is bat country
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Norway
Posts: 1,693
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Re: Official G-II Announcement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supersander
something being offensive is judged by the person who something is done too and has therefore no real value.
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Im pretty sure people find their coords all over the internet pretty offensive if they tried to keep it hidden.
BUT NOT in your fairytale world of Duckville mysteries
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