Planetarion Forums

Kargool · 6 Jul 2005, 01:13

Well, now that I have gotten a taste of the new stats, been playing in the beta and doing some tests with the race I thought looked interesting: Terran i thought I was going to make a post about what I have seen, and tried.

Terrans: They seemed interesting at first. Their DE can take out Caths easy, that prolly means focusing only on DE because of the possibilities of def being there. BS seems okay against Xans, Broadswords kinda like feels like XPK did last round, but for one vital change, this time you cant hurt a xan with attacking with BS only. Since Xan seems very good deffers, BS attacks on Xans isnt highly recommended.

possible tactics for Terrans with new stats: Focus on getting alot of DE. DE will be your main hit fleet.

Downside for Terrans: Alot actually. Defence against Cath Co will be hard to get. Since your attack target will mainly be cath's you will get trouble if they retal with their CO fleet. The gryhon is abit too expensive to cover completly against the cath co.

Xans as usual walk all over you with their FI fleet, the new stats only make it more possible for them to attack you with a fi/co fleet. You will also get trouble against their FR fleet since they now as your main hope against FR is in your attack fleet. We all know how badly Syrens fare against xan's bombers, and they still do.

Ziks: abit easier to defend against. Ziks need to combine to attack you with FR as your Syrens kicks ass. Their battleship fleet is more of a worry. Again, your best defence against a possible attack combination lies in your main attack fleet. Thus leaving u very open for attacks from ziks who are able to do 1 of two things: either know you are attacking because of ingal/alliance, or newscan you.

Terrans vs Terrans: Here your best option is to attack with BS. But since the BS is abit slow you might get def against you and there is always the BYOF option.

Overall: Terran is with theese stats a very difficult race to play. You will get trouble from the start if you dont have pegs to protect against Xans.. But Xans can easely kick you if they build some.

Will update with the rest of the races tomorrow.

Jester · 6 Jul 2005, 11:25

I saw whatever set is currently up as stats and I laughed.

Cocteau · 6 Jul 2005, 11:53

Nah. Obviously, this is an early april fools' for xand fans.

C'mon statsmakers, this can't be true - admit the joke asap.

:P

Desse · 6 Jul 2005, 16:43

Just get some decent statmakers to do them.

PA-team, this really isn´t your field of expertise

Edge · 6 Jul 2005, 18:40

thanks

SimbaX · 7 Jul 2005, 11:58

*sigh* should be another balanced round then

- cheers for the info Kargool, good post.

/me pos rep j00

noah02 · 7 Jul 2005, 12:15

/me changes his Terran for life signature

sick of being the most attacked planet in my galaxy. Not being the most attacked in gal for 4th round running.
Think I will decide in public beta first i guess. But its bending towards going Xan atm coz they always seem to be onto a winner with all them easy Terrans around with weak spots bigger than a paper bag.

Appocomaster · 7 Jul 2005, 12:46

Stats have changed slightly since Kargool's post.
Personally, I think that:
Terran
De can hit Cath, sort of hit Zik, and can hit Terran with no Phoenix (heh).

Bs
Can hit Cath and Zik with Dragons, Xan with lots of Syrens (and Wyverns)

Cathaar
Co can hit Terran (though the Viper/Gryphon thing is interesting and lots of Gryphons are going to make it costly)
They can also hit low-scorpion Cathaar, Xan with no lancers, and Zikonians. Probably a weaker fleet.

Cruisers can hit Terran if they're willing to take losses vs Dragons
They can flak Scarabs, although Scarabs are quite efficient. Xans they can take on fine, and Zik fine.

Xan
Fi/co can hit Terran
Fi can hit Cath okish (flak vs beetles),
and Fi can hit Zik too.

Fr/De can hit Terran, sort of hit Cathaar (though Roaches become a problem, and Guardians are quite efficient), and can hit Zik. Can also hit other Xan if they wish to sacrifice Lancers.

Zik Fr can sort of hit Terrans, but mainly they're weaker than last round, with the anti co, fr, de steal ships are not same ETA, but they have kill ships that are able to make same ETA.

To be honest, this should be moved to the strategy discussion thread.

jerome · 7 Jul 2005, 13:27

To be honest, you should stop making one kill race inherently strong over the other.

Appocomaster · 7 Jul 2005, 13:45

Which one would that be? I assume you meant Xan hitting Terran more than the other way around?

noah02 · 7 Jul 2005, 13:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Appocomaster

Xan
Fi/co can hit Terran
Fi can hit Cath okish (flak vs beetles),
and Fi can hit Zik too.

Like I said Xan get it good. First lot of ships out and fastest ships on the move the cheapest ships and the most targets.
Oh and a hard race to hit.

jerome · 7 Jul 2005, 14:06

Yeah I did. Terrans can't really viably roid xands with de at all, and they can only even consider doing so with BS when involving Syrens too -which ofcourse inevitably get killed so expensive roids.

Thing is, you need to sort some basic principles in the race roiding round robins:

Kill 1 > Kill 1 with taking losses for roids via roidfleet 1
Kill 1 > Kill 1 with taking losses for roids via roidfleet 2
Kill 1 > Emp with pure flak throughroidfleet 1
Kill 1 > Emp with involving a different class to kill a certain killship
Kill 1 > Kill 2 with roidfleet1
Kill 1 can't roid Kill 2 with roidfleet 2
Kill 1 > Steal with roidfleet 1 with involving 2 classes
Kill 1 > Steal with roidfleet 2 but has to take losses - stealers gain ships and such

Emp > Kill 1 with roidfleet 1
Emp > Kill 1 with roidfleet 2 but at losses - aka involves 2 classes & 2nd class has to be sacrified
Emp > Emp with losses with roidfleet 1
Emp > Emp with flakthrough with roidfleet 2
Emp > Kill 2 with roidfleet 1
Emp > Kill 2 but again needs 2 classes (but not the same ship needed to freeze the anti-roidfleet2 of Kill1)
Emp > Steal with roidfleet 1 but has to take losses - stealers gain ships and such
Emp > Steal with roidfleet 2 but has to take losses - stealers gain ships and such & maybe use 2 classes

Kill 2 can't roid Kill 1 with roidfleet 1
Kill 2 > Kill 1 with roidfleet 2
Kill 2 > Emp with flak through roidfleet 1 - but later on has to take losses with involvement of capital ships
Kill 2 > Emp with roidfleet 2 pure flak through
Kill 2 > Kill 2 with taking losses for roids via roidfleet 1
Kill 2 > Kill 2 with taking losses for roids via roidfleet 2
Kill 2 > Steal with roidfleet 1 but has to take losses - stealers gain ships and such
Kill 2 > Steal with roidfleet 1 with involving 2 classes

Steal > Kill 1 with roidfleet 1 by taking losses
Steal > Kill 2 with roidfleet 2 by equalizing losses by stealing anti-roidfleet2 ship
Steal > Emp with roidfleet 1 by equalizing losses by stealing anti-roidfleet1 ship
Steal > Emp with roidfleet 2 by pure flak through

ETC.. i'm too lazy to finish it off. you get the picture. it all links in together etc.

cypher · 7 Jul 2005, 14:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by noah02

/me changes his Terran for life signature

sick of being the most attacked planet in my galaxy. Not being the most attacked in gal for 4th round running.
Think I will decide in public beta first i guess. But its bending towards going Xan atm coz they always seem to be onto a winner with all them easy Terrans around with weak spots bigger than a paper bag.

/me coughs :P

noah02 · 7 Jul 2005, 15:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by cypher

/me coughs :P

lol ok maybe in are gal you might have been attacked once or twice more than me but I still lost more roids than you

I was number 1 for losing them

Kargool · 7 Jul 2005, 16:30

I tried the stats with Xans also actually. They were quite interesteing. Their CO ships are the best ships I have seen in PA. But mostly only defensively. Both Sentinel and uhm. that Co hitting FR ships were very interesting and if you plan attack a xan with FI or FR, DONT. Their CO's will wipe the floor with you. A smart Xan has production on 5 and saves some resources to build himself defence ships when attacked. You can last along time with the initial attackfleet, especially against Terrans and Ziks.

jerome · 7 Jul 2005, 17:28

btw change the stats and start all over with either the principles jester stated in the strategy forums or my own ones above, ty

Appocomaster · 7 Jul 2005, 18:51

I made stats from the principles on Jesters SD post, and then grudgingly, over 2 weeks, changed them to have less and less steal and EMP for all races and finally none at all, because apparently that's what no one wants. I've had stats submitted, most of which have as many holes, if not more, than the current ones. As of tomorrow afternoon I have an 18 hour non-stop journey going on holiday, so when I'm not sleeping I'll see what I can come up with stats wise.

Melesse · 8 Jul 2005, 01:56

Appocomaster, who cares. It's never going to make them all happy, let's just see how this one goes. And maybe next round we can do stealing, etc, and see if that makes everyone happy. It's not like you're going to find a perfect set of stats that will work from now on. That would be boring anyways

Thanks for the effort you're taking though.

Melesse

bwtmc · 8 Jul 2005, 03:36

It'd be a great disappointment if Stealing was left out, presumably only EMP etc has so far been cut?

Appocomaster · 8 Jul 2005, 03:41

Having talked repeately with some of the more active HC in the private HC/PA Team channel, and to a lot of people in the private beta channel, most of their opinions run along the lines of it being too different / other stats haven't been tried fairly / it might be fun for a speedgame but it shouldn't be in a real game / too unpredictable / other reasons so I think that we might not be having steal for all the races, despite my personal preference, for this round.

Goatsemaster · 8 Jul 2005, 06:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Appocomaster

Having talked repeately with some of the more active HC in the private HC/PA Team channel, and to a lot of people in the private beta channel, most of their opinions run along the lines of it being too different / other stats haven't been tried fairly / it might be fun for a speedgame but it shouldn't be in a real game / too unpredictable / other reasons so I think that we might not be having steal for all the races, despite my personal preference, for this round.

Design by commitee at work, folks.

Appocomaster · 8 Jul 2005, 06:20

No. While I've talked to lots of people to see their views on suggested improvements on the stats, I've been responsible for designing and adjusting the majority of the stats beta tested and available on the forums.
When I get told I'm not listening by many alliance HCs, one of whom then suggests maybe themselves and others should go play other games instead, I felt I didn't have much choice but to remove steal from the other races.

Rocko · 8 Jul 2005, 09:35

hard position to be in. Dammed if you do somthing, dammed if you don't.

bwtmc · 8 Jul 2005, 12:04

Appoco, it's by no means impossible to find a reasonable balance with stealing as described. Maybe you should pull a xontas and tell them where to stick it, that you've already spent enough time on it to keep it.

Fundamentally there's nothing wrong with it and there's no sound reason for it to be held back given the promise and life it gives to the game later in the round.

In all honesty, i'd rather listen to an overwhelming majority within the community, than any Alliance HC that chooses to place influence on you as above. And I somewhat doubt many players in that position would gladly live without PA anyway.

If it's not done, we could certainly do with some feeling of "greater change" for R14 than minor Ship Class and rename based adjustments. I don't particularly want tire of the game a month in :\

Rocko · 8 Jul 2005, 12:53

maybe try out the stealing in the speedgame/havoc at the end of the round,... so everyone can have a chance to try it out,.. then if people get behind it, it can be somthing to use for round 15,...

furball · 8 Jul 2005, 13:13

Personally I loved every race having stealing. Moreover, the people complaining about stealing are mainly those who haven't even played the private beta (yes, I know that it's restricted). Yet when this is alliance HCs, etc, throwing hissy-fits, then it's pretty damn selfish.

People are scared of change. This would have been a good change, and now we don't get it

Rocko · 8 Jul 2005, 13:19

people should have ago at their alliance HC's,.. and those in the beta.

Those are the ones that are stopping this from happening,.. there the ones in the beta,.. Appocomaster is trying his best to appease, while the silent majority suddenly start to say they like it.
Where are the people saying they dont want the stealing ships in every race now?
Where were the people who wanted stealing ships earlier when those agasint it were hurling abuse about it,...?????

but hey,...

bwtmc · 8 Jul 2005, 13:40

Tell you what mate, if they're at all serious about "not playing." Tell them to satisfy their requests with constructive prose on here as to why it should not be implemented this round (ever).

You have no duty as a stats designer to act on idle threats like that, or to listen to fools with no sense of direction or at least the balls to justify such remarks on here. The current stats might be unrounded but the fundamentals behind them are not.

Neferti · 8 Jul 2005, 15:12

I'm not sure it's a good idea. But I'm certainly not gonna quit if it doesnt go my way! Sheesh. I've been wrong before

berzerker · 8 Jul 2005, 18:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neferti

I'm not sure it's a good idea. But I'm certainly not gonna quit if it doesnt go my way! Sheesh. I've been wrong before

ditto

Phil^ · 8 Jul 2005, 19:09

no matter what you come up with, there will ALWAYS be people who dont like it, and ill-informed people who want you to do the stats they want
Often there are two or more groups pulling you a certain way, and often in conflicting directions.
my advice would be to ignore them for the most part. Listen to competant people only and stick up for what you think is right. If you cant convince a majority of it otherwise, fair enough
Doing stats is incredibly difficult, and people in general just make it harder

Jester · 8 Jul 2005, 19:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil^

no matter what you come up with, there will ALWAYS be people who dont like it, and ill-informed people who want you to do the stats they want
Often there are two or more groups pulling you a certain way, and often in conflicting directions.
my advice would be to ignore them for the most part. Listen to competant people only and stick up for what you think is right. If you cant convince a majority of it otherwise, fair enough
Doing stats is incredibly difficult, and people in general just make it harder

Very, very true. Please listen to him.

kamikaze69 · 8 Jul 2005, 21:01

I concur, that is a very valid point. But then most noobs think that they are stat balancing programmers.

Rocko · 9 Jul 2005, 00:35

why arn't my pegs init 1 yet!! listen to me!!!! or i'll quit PA and play another game!!!!

plz,.. people who said that should be ashamed!!!

Plz, someone who threatoned to quit over the stats,.. PLZ come on here and explain yourselfs,.....
we're reasonable people,.. we'll listen to your explanations over the matter,.,..

Phil^ · 9 Jul 2005, 05:52

no you wont, you'll make fun of them and you know it :P

jerome · 9 Jul 2005, 08:38

just like people make fun of the stats?

Judge · 9 Jul 2005, 09:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Appocomaster

.
When I get told I'm not listening by many alliance HCs, one of whom then suggests maybe themselves and others should go play other games instead, I felt I didn't have much choice but to remove steal from the other races.

Bowing to blackmail is not a good idea, it only leads to more blackmail.

Stand by your own decisions, these so called HC's are only one person, they dont own their alliance players but are merely a catalyst for their alliance, PA players will soon find a new alliance when some overblown self-opinionated retard decides he wants to take his ball home becuase he doesnt like the stats.

I know for certain, that if the HC of an alliance where I was a member came along and said we are all gonna quit PA just because he didnt get his own way, I would soon say get on with it mate, and promptly join another alliance.

Appocomaster · 9 Jul 2005, 14:57

http://appocomaster.50megs.com/beta.htm these are the stats on the server, and will be the ones we start public beta with. I know I saved it straight from the site, but signups will be opening asap and we've just had a powercut and i've got 30 mins of life left on my laptop, and no excel, so I can't edit it into some pretty other thing I'm afraid.

bwtmc · 9 Jul 2005, 18:53

I can honestly say, after ploughing through at least each roiding class and what it'll come up against, i'm more happy than I have been with any stats that've been published so far pre-Round 14. I haven't seen for myself the exact way in which the recent stats have worked out in the private beta's but i'm reasonably happy with these pre-public preview. I'll be interested to see how people get on with them. I'm glad you stuck to your original plans. I don't feel Terran are understated given the state of the other three races.

bwtmc · 9 Jul 2005, 22:00

Cath on Cath attacks are a little concerning, I quite like them on the whole.

Rocko · 10 Jul 2005, 13:16

xans still scare me a tad, but if you take in to account that chances are their frig and fi fleet will be out attacking,.. then their looking a tad easier