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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 02:32   #1
Deffeh
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Michael Carrick

Does anyone, anyone, rate this sack of shit?

I ask because i watch man utd quite a lot because one of my mates is a fan and theyre on tv quite a lot, and im constantly struck by a few things.

a/ Carrick cant tackle for shit

b/ Carrick, with the exception of a great finish today cant shoot for toffee

c/ Carrick has no pace

d/ Carricks decision making is incredibly poor

e/ Carrick loses the ball all the time

f/ Carrick is the most negative player in England

g/ The fact Paul Scholes has carried Carrick all season makes Scholes an even better player than hes given credit for being.

but the most important factor of all seems to be

h/ every single pundit in england seems to be watching a different michael carrick to me, and everyone else i know. They call him 'continental style' and 'comfortable in possession' and always find excuses why he doesnt perform for either Man Utd or England.


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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 02:40   #2
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Re: Michael Carrick

He's English.
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 02:46   #3
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Re: Michael Carrick

Your being harsh. While some of your points are true (he is not an immense tackler, hes not a great shooter and isnt that pacey) he is someone who allows others to play.

His passing is immense both short range and long (his opta stats make Gerrard and Lampard look shit),
He reads the game well so he often doest need to tackle (his interception stats are right up there)
He is patient and won't just try a difficult ball for the sake of it and will allow play to develop

All in all he allows the others to play their own game by doing the simple things right and while its not flashy or even that 'good' from a specator pov its a role that needs done
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 02:52   #4
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Re: Michael Carrick

i would play fletcher ahead of him any day of the week. fletcher outpassed and outworked him today.
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 02:52   #5
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Re: Michael Carrick

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
He's English.
That's open for discussion.
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 02:59   #6
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Re: Michael Carrick

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deffeh
i would play fletcher ahead of him any day of the week. fletcher outpassed and outworked him today.
Fletcher alot worse. He is weak, cant tackle, passing is erratic, cant run with the ball, cant rad the game that well, cant shoot and more often than not requires team mates to cover him.

His one saving grace is he will does always seem to try his best and does sometimes have a good game (and actually hes improved a fair it this season compared to last) but hes no more than a backup player and if hargreaves joins in the summer i wouldn't be surprised if hes off
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 03:58   #7
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Re: Michael Carrick

The only sense in which fletcher has improved this year is that he's on the pitch less, ergo you get reminded of his shitness more infrequently. I don't think carrick's as bad as you make him out deffeh, he's certainly not of much use but I was going to mention a redeeming quality he has here but bar "he's not as ugly as ji-sung park I can't think of anything".
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 10:45   #8
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Re: Michael Carrick

A) He's a good tackler, the best in our midfield by far.*
B) His shooting is poor but not completely terrible. That’s Park.
C) No he doesn't have any pace but his positioning is normally so good it doesn't matter. Not many players in his position have a great deal of pace anyway really.
D) Madness. Don't even know what to say about that.
E) Okay your definitely watching someone other than Carrick, his possession stats were incredible last time I saw them, apart from Scholes he keeps the ball better than anyone else in our team.
F) I don't watch England anymore because it's depressing so you might be right.
G) Scholes is awesome but he's not carried Carrick at all, in a couple of games like Arsenal and Spurs away Carrick has been carrying Scholes.

Pundits do talk shit as a rule but if they're praising Carrick they're right to be honest. I really wasn't sure about him when he bought him, I thought he was vastly overpriced and that a Carrick-Scholes pairing in midfield would leave our defence (Rio) completely exposed. I wanted Diarra, Viera or someone of that ilk but I've long since realised I was wrong, Carrick is a really good player and has contributed a great deal to us being six points clear.

[edit] * I know this isn't saying much when the rest of our midfield is Giggs, Scholes and Ronaldo but honestly Carrick is a good tackler.

Last edited by Dark_Mage; 18 Feb 2007 at 10:52.
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 10:50   #9
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Re: Michael Carrick

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
Fletcher alot worse. He is weak, cant tackle, passing is erratic, cant run with the ball, cant rad the game that well, cant shoot and more often than not requires team mates to cover him.

His one saving grace is he will does always seem to try his best and does sometimes have a good game (and actually hes improved a fair it this season compared to last) but hes no more than a backup player and if hargreaves joins in the summer i wouldn't be surprised if hes off
I agree with your assessment on Fletcher but I think if Hargreaves joins he'll slip down to fourth choice rather than leave the club, I can't ever see Fletcher being sold while Ferguson is in charge.
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 13:25   #10
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Re: Michael Carrick

I don't get why people slag Fletcher, he comes in, seems to fight for the united cause 100%, does a decent job and as a squad player who won't throw a tantrum for not being played.

He is decent at prem level and will do a job against most sides, which means you can rest the stars for the bigger matches.

I don't get why united fans whine about players like Fletcher, they are useful in the grand scheme of things, FFS.
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 14:07   #11
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Re: Michael Carrick

United fans have an amazingly comical blindspot towards fletcher. He doesnt get any credit for the good games he has.

#1 example of this would be the Man Utd 0-1 Arsenal game earlier in the season where Fletcher was by far the best Utd player on the pitch and 606 was filled with Utd fans complaining about him. I was almost glad Arsenal won that day.

His performances for Scotland have been brilliant, and in games where he is arguably the more 'senior' of the Utd midfield pairing - ie alongside O'Shea or someone (mostly last season) he plays very well.

If you lot are trying to tell me carrick played better than fletcher last night i think you are seriously deluded and need to stop looking at his nationality and price tag. I think hes an absolute waste of space

(9 mistakes, 1 goal, and 3 good passes was his count last night btw.)
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 14:14   #12
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Re: Michael Carrick

It’s because he isn’t very good and he plays in a team with a lot of good players so it’s very noticeable. He does get a lot of unfair criticism (people blaming him for the whole team playing badly and so on) but that’s not going to change the fact that he’s played over 100 games for Man Utd and, so far, been pretty poor.
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 14:29   #13
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Re: Michael Carrick

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deffeh
United fans have an amazingly comical blindspot towards fletcher. He doesnt get any credit for the good games he has...
Fletcher gets plenty of credit when he has good games, it's just a very rare event. After the Liverpool game earlier in the season he was widely praised on every United board I frequent and for the first time in a while people wanted him to be given a run in the side. Sadly he didn't get the run and since then he's gone back to his headless chicken impersonation. I thought Fletcher was one of our best players in that Arsenal match by the way but I don't listen to 606 (Alan Green is unbearable) and anyone can look good playing alongside O'Shea who is the worst player I've ever seen consistently get games in our centre midfield, yes he's even worse there than Miller, Kleberson and Djemba-Djemba.

Carrick was better than Fletcher than last night as he usually is but really it's not even a fair comparison, Carrick is a more experienced and talented player which is why he's in our first team and Fletcher spends most of his time on the bench or in the stands. Nationality and price tag have nothing to do with it by the way, I've already said I thought Carrick was overpriced but he's proved me wrong with his performances.
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 16:15   #14
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Re: Michael Carrick

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deffeh
i would play fletcher ahead of him any day of the week.
Haha, you lost all credibility with this line.

Carrick in my eyes shovels the shit, he does the job that no one else wants to do, ie get stuck in not push forward a great deal and be the link between defence and midfeild.

Sure he isn't like ronaldo, but he doesn't have to be, they have a ronaldo, giggs, rooney, scholes, laarson.

I rate the lad. I will say something though, Man Utds team hasn't changed a great deal. Yet they have brought in carrick and vidic/evra and all of a sudden they look like a team.

Carrick allows the forwards to do their jobs.

Also Deffeh I just want to add that watching football on the tv as oppose to at the match is completly different.

I will come home and watch MOTD and think jesus McCann was shite today, or I watch it live on sky and think the same, yet mates who go to the match or if I go will tell me Gavin McCann was class.

McCann and Carrick are similar in the sense they work hard and do the job, they don't write a song and dance about it. On the TV you miss the hard work they do, but when you watch the game live at the ground its quite clear what a difference players like Carrick make.
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 17:04   #15
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Re: Michael Carrick

so i'm supposed to take what you say about carrick as gospel but you're allowed to dismiss what i say about fletcher. sounds fair!

Dont get me wrong, im not stupid and have an idea what the 'donkey work' involves. For god sake Neil Lennon has played for my team for over 5 years now.

However, Carrick simply isnt up to it. He isnt a dynamic tackling machine like, say, Sissoko, or a box to box midfielder, or a 'backs against the wall'. He's slow in possession. Hes not incisive at all. He loses the ball so often and gets dispossessed EASILY. Considering he's meant to be a 'keep the team ticking over' type player, this is an absolute cardinal sin. Wingers and forwards are allowed to lose the ball, center mids who dont burst forward are not.

He's pedestrian and he also doesnt man mark. Watch him and you'll see he automatically runs back to the semi circle on the edge of the box regardless of the pattern of the counter attack. He hasnt done it for England, and he hasnt done it for Man utd. Please, just watch him and be objective rather than english for a change. Count good passes vs lost the ball. He lost it 9 times yesterday, which for a player who you are all convinced does 'behind the scenes work' and isnt meant to be spectacular, is just woeful.
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 17:36   #16
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Re: Michael Carrick

I agree he isn't at his best, but since he has been brought into the team Man United have started winning. In fact they like special. Perhaps it is because they have Scholes back, perhaps it is because Ronaldo has become amazing, perhaps they have a hard bastard in defence. But Carrick is in the squad now, and he may if just made a difference.

Like I said earlier watching him on tv and at the game is completly different. I have been to old trafford 3 (once with villa) times this season and I went to Man Utd v Blackburn away. I am not a manu fan but I will go with my mates if they ask me. When I have gone I have seen a different carrick than what I see on tv.

My point flies back to the old tv and watching it live debate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deffeh
Please, just watch him and be objective rather than english for a change
The same could apply to yourself, stop being scottish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy Keane
I can't understand why people in Scotland rave about Darren Fletcher.
Fletcher is gash. He is like a rollercoaster, one minute he is top of the world next minute he is rock bottom. At least thats my opinion of the lad. He probably doesnt get enough game time compared to Carrick and if he was played as much as Carrick he might be better than him in the long run, seeing as fletcher knows the man utd system.

I was slating Carrick at the start of the system, but over time I am enjoying the way he plays. He does the job for united.

Fergie is probably playing Carrick to justify the expensive transfer fee. The best thing Fletcher could do is join another club maybe on a loan or something and try and prove to Fergie that he can do a far better job. If fletcher can do a class job at say villa or pompey then he can push his way into the team.

Unfortunately atm its Carrick who fergie will choose. Regardless of who is currently playing better.
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 18:03   #17
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Re: Michael Carrick

Deffeh I have always thought you talked sense about football and have long admired your hatred of Porto and Deco but speaking as someone who has seen every United game this season I’ve got to disagree with you. I don't want to go through your post because it would be boring but this bit did catch me eye.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deffeh
Count good passes vs lost the ball. He lost it 9 times yesterday, which for a player who you are all convinced does 'behind the scenes work' and isnt meant to be spectacular, is just woeful.
Admittedly I wasn't counting passes yesterday but I can’t let you say we’re all wrong about his level of performance based on one game. Carrick is an outstanding passer, one of the very best in the league. Just check out these pass completion stats I got off the skysports website.

(In %)

Scholes 91.6
Essien 85.6
Carrick 84.4
Hleb 83.7
Makelele 83.0
Alonso 81.8
Fabregas 81.6
Silva 81.6
Rosicky 80.2
Lampard 79.1
Gerrard 77.4
Ballack 75.7

And McCann because he was mentioned earlier 74.9.

Two things here, Paul Scholes is god and Carrick is better at keeping the ball with his passing than every other midfielder from our rivals with the exception of Essien. The dude is awesome!
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 18:14   #18
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Re: Michael Carrick

Neil Lennon probably has a 99% pass completion rate or something then, because he's negative as **** too and only passes sideways or backwards.

Are you honestly going to try and tell me that Claude Makalele is one of the best passers in the premier league?
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 18:22   #19
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Re: Michael Carrick

Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
I agree he isn't at his best, but since he has been brought into the team Man United have started winning. In fact they like special. Perhaps it is because they have Scholes back, perhaps it is because Ronaldo has become amazing, perhaps they have a hard bastard in defence. But Carrick is in the squad now, and he may if just made a difference.

Like I said earlier watching him on tv and at the game is completly different. I have been to old trafford 3 (once with villa) times this season and I went to Man Utd v Blackburn away. I am not a manu fan but I will go with my mates if they ask me. When I have gone I have seen a different carrick than what I see on tv.

My point flies back to the old tv and watching it live debate.



The same could apply to yourself, stop being scottish.



Fletcher is gash. He is like a rollercoaster, one minute he is top of the world next minute he is rock bottom. At least thats my opinion of the lad. He probably doesnt get enough game time compared to Carrick and if he was played as much as Carrick he might be better than him in the long run, seeing as fletcher knows the man utd system.

I was slating Carrick at the start of the system, but over time I am enjoying the way he plays. He does the job for united.

Fergie is probably playing Carrick to justify the expensive transfer fee. The best thing Fletcher could do is join another club maybe on a loan or something and try and prove to Fergie that he can do a far better job. If fletcher can do a class job at say villa or pompey then he can push his way into the team.

Unfortunately atm its Carrick who fergie will choose. Regardless of who is currently playing better.

Would this be the same Roy Keane who after criticising a Scottish player for keeping him out the Man Utd team, one month later went to Celtic and failed miserably? On his debut we got tanked out the cup 3-0 by ****ing _Clyde_. He also took a massive sign on fee to play for a year and a half minimum and then retired after 3 months.

Great player in his day, but i wouldnt take anything he has to say about Scottish football seriously.

Fletcher has been consistently the best Scotland player for the last couple of years; most notably when we beat Holland in the playoff first leg, before then when he scored the winning goal against Lithuania to even GET us there, away in Slovenia when we won 3-0, and again this campaign against France when we won 1-0.

The phrase 'scapegoat' comes to mind whenever i hear anyone talk about fletcher. His range of passing is good and he deals well with responsibility. I do hope he moves away from Man Utd because it seems pretty obvious the fans will never appreciate him there, and i think he could shoulder the responsibility of being the premier center midfielder at a club like Fulham.
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 19:26   #20
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Re: Michael Carrick

I believe if you look up "gets caught on the ball a lot" in the dictionary you find a picture of Darren Fletcher. His awareness, for a professional footballer, is pretty terrible. To be honest this might be why he plays a lot better for Scotland than Utd.
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 20:31   #21
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Re: Michael Carrick

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Mage
Just check out these pass completion stats I got off the skysports website.



Two things here, Paul Scholes is god and Carrick is better at keeping the ball with his passing than every other midfielder from our rivals with the exception of Essien. The dude is awesome!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deffeh
Neil Lennon probably has a 99% pass completion rate or something then, because he's negative as **** too and only passes sideways or backwards.

Are you honestly going to try and tell me that Claude Makalele is one of the best passers in the premier league?

Deffeh is spot on here. A centre-back that is told to only pass the ball to an open midfielder or to one of his fellow defenders will have awesome pass completion ratings, but that doesn't make him an amazing passer of the ball. A player's ambition is very relevant, and that's why players like Fabregas and Alonso can be regarded as awesome - because for the number of long passes they attempt, they have an extremely good success rate.
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 20:53   #22
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Re: Michael Carrick

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Deffeh is spot on here. A centre-back that is told to only pass the ball to an open midfielder or to one of his fellow defenders will have awesome pass completion ratings, but that doesn't make him an amazing passer of the ball. A player's ambition is very relevant, and that's why players like Fabregas and Alonso can be regarded as awesome - because for the number of long passes they attempt, they have an extremely good success rate.
Exactly, it also explains why Gilberto Silva has over 80%.
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 21:21   #23
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Re: Michael Carrick

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Deffeh is spot on here. A centre-back that is told to only pass the ball to an open midfielder or to one of his fellow defenders will have awesome pass completion ratings, but that doesn't make him an amazing passer of the ball. A player's ambition is very relevant, and that's why players like Fabregas and Alonso can be regarded as awesome - because for the number of long passes they attempt, they have an extremely good success rate.
But Carrick does do long passes. He does them all the time. More than both Fabregas and Alonso in my opinion. Off the top of my head I can only think of Lampard, Gerrard and Scholes who go for more long passes than Carrick.

[edit] Like the first goal in this for example. A first time pass from his own half that plays Rooney through, if you see United play reguarly he does stuff like that all the time.

Last edited by Dark_Mage; 18 Feb 2007 at 21:29.
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 22:25   #24
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Re: Michael Carrick

Are we wactching the same person? In respone to original post his tackling isnt up there but i dont think ive seen anyone make more short passes in middle of park in premiership than carrick. Ball retention is what its all about these days at the top flight and carrick aids united to do this a lot. He is one of those players that can turn defnce into attck with one swif low pass. He can pass long when he needs to as well. And have u noticed the direction and weight on his passes? the are 9/10 played into great channels and are 9/10 brilliant weight. I would say hes on par with fabregas tbh. But add some more tackling and finishing and ur looking at the next gerrard/lampard.

Plu i just got my hair cut like his
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 23:21   #25
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Re: Michael Carrick

Ball retention is all well and good but it's useless if its just passed across your back four like arsenal did the first half of the blackburn game.
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Unread 18 Feb 2007, 23:29   #26
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Re: Michael Carrick

i thought carrick played well.. never mind!
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Unread 19 Feb 2007, 01:07   #27
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Re: Michael Carrick

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon_Fodder
Ball retention is all well and good but it's useless if its just passed across your back four like arsenal did the first half of the blackburn game.
When i said ball retention i was meaning in the midfield area. If u can keep the ball in midfield with scholes beside you and rooney/giggs/ ronaldo as forward passing options then you aint gonna do half bad


On a seperate not e have i missed a discusiion about player of the year yet(premiership ofc)?
For me its Ronaldo,drogba or scholes but we know that scholes wont get a look in and the press hate ronaldo so drogba will prob end up with it thanks to a big fat brown envelope
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Unread 19 Feb 2007, 01:18   #28
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Re: Michael Carrick

What a stupid argument.
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Unread 19 Feb 2007, 01:22   #29
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Re: Michael Carrick

there have been many, which
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Unread 19 Feb 2007, 01:27   #30
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Re: Michael Carrick

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rinoa
On a seperate not e have i missed a discusiion about player of the year yet(premiership ofc)?
For me its Ronaldo,drogba or scholes but we know that scholes wont get a look in and the press hate ronaldo so drogba will prob end up with it thanks to a big fat brown envelope
Yeah, you have.

Frankly you come off as incredibly paranoid and perhaps delusional. It's obvious that you're a Man United fan. With bookies' odds still to be released, I'd guess at Drogba 7/4, Ronaldo 2/1 and Scholes 6/1. Scholes is being seriously talked up in the media at the moment, Drogba has gone a little dry (comparatively) on the scoring front and Cristiano Ronaldo is still working his magic. He might be being booed but peoples' hearts aren't really in it anymore.
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Unread 19 Feb 2007, 03:29   #31
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Re: Michael Carrick

Now, I've not seen a lot of Michael Carrick, but I'll go from what little I have seen and various opinions on the thread. The best midfielder I've seen in the prem apart from Steven Gerrard (and I mean at the ground) was Alexei Smertin 3 years ago. He wasn't especially creative, he wasn't a particularly regular tackler either.

All he did was pick up the ball in front of the defence, because his position/anticipation was excellent then move with the ball as far as possible then move it to someone who could create it. He wasn't particularly creative either, but you could bet there were numerous situations where he played the guy who got the assist (or attempted assist) into space, with a simple pass. This sounds pretty similar to Carrick. The asset was that the team kept ticking over and was able to creep forward, gaining possession further up the pitch (which in turn, helps you defend as well as attack). I'm not sure how pass completion is relevant but in terms of keeping the other side running around and trying to get the other side to make space for you, such a player is going to be useful.

Now Carrick is a better player than Smertin 3 years ago, by virtue that occasionally, he can put a player in himself. On top of that, considering his passing options are Scholes, Giggs, Ronaldo and Rooney potentially, I think that someone to put the simple ball into the creative players is exactly what United need. He's probably overpriced but fits into United's gameplan so they probably think he's worth the money.

The only other player I can think of that plays like him right now is Pedro Mendes, who he is probably better than and Pedro ain't a bad player anyway. The comparisons to Makelele are mental, Claude just sits in front of the back 4 making tackles and passing it away. His function is purely defensive, he is a different kind of player.
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Unread 19 Feb 2007, 10:26   #32
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Re: Michael Carrick

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