Round 37 shipsstats discussion thread

[Kaiba]

Originally Posted by isildurx

Maybe it's a bit early to say this but please don't make xan fico too powerful appoco!

since when was it powerful??? its awful in beta

[Patrikc]

Originally Posted by Kaiba

since when was it powerful??? its awful in beta

Elaborate please.

[Psi_K]

Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu

Doesn't mean you're qualified. There's been more unqualified people bumbling around with these things than qualified people, to be quite honest.

So your only response about something you have no clue about is to attempt to claim I wasn't qualified?
Fail.

[cbk100]

Isn't the EMP eff. way too low? You got kill ships with more or less the same eff. and steal ships with higher eff. To me that seems a bit odd.

I did not play the last single targeting, so my comment might be due to lack of experience with the setup. Maybe single targeting asks for less EMP power...

[Patrikc]

Originally Posted by cbk100

Isn't the EMP eff. way too low? You got kill ships with more or less the same eff. and steal ships with higher eff. To me that seems a bit odd.

Some ships (Scarab and Cat Cr) seem a bit weak, but I don't see any steal ships that have a higher efficiency. (not sure if anything's been changed between our posts though)

[Onim]

thief vs cutlass same init stealing eachother should be changed. I'd say change the cutlass to init 21. Same goes for rogue vs pirate

I also feel that there are way too many attack-fleet ships firing at eachother at same init, banshee vs pegasus, drake vs wyvern, syren vs nightmare (okay , syren is technically not an attackfleet ship but could very well be used as such, and then also the ghost fires at init 6 vs ter bs)

i am always in favor of basics of the types of ships in a way that EMP has advantage vs cloak, cloac has init advantage vs conventional, conventional advantage against EMP and zik stealships that feed its own podclasses being ships that are not actually the same class as the podclass, and as basic a somewhat equal armour/damage where armour is slightly under conventional's armour.

This set of stats seem to go ignore the very reason of the existence of, for example, etd. Etd should be a healthy mix of EMP , cloack and conventional, where the one cloacked ship should at least feed its own podclass.

Now, etds can have a 3rd podclass, but why? Their attackfleets should be equally playable as any other races 2 podclasses, except ofc for the zik.

Voyager stealing FI means etds will be wanting to steal xan FI. But , they have nothing to back that xan fi fleet up in any good way. It would make more senses if the voyager could steal FR or even CO (being able to steal cath CO to team with their avenger is a nice option).

I am looking forward to the first tweaks I must admit that i havent looked thoroughly into each change i propose in terms of how it would affect the whole stats, so feel free to point out any errors

[isildurx]

I think those are some valid points. I also think 'same-init combat' is a bit shit as it limits the number of targets for both races.

[Zazas]

I will repeat myself

Originally Posted by Zazas

ETD got 8 ships instead of 9, add one more steal ship please.

[Sun_Tzu]

Originally Posted by Zazas

I will repeat myself

Repetition without argument is nothing but hot air.

[isildurx]

Not a lot of discussion here

Everyone happy with the stats?

[Sun_Tzu]

Originally Posted by isildurx

Not a lot of discussion here

Everyone happy with the stats?

I'm happy with your mum/sister/gf.

[Patrikc]

I'd recommend changing Banshee back to init 5, other than that I think all races are fairly balanced and have something going for them.

[isildurx]

Yeah that is my overall impression too. I'm not sure about the banshee init, I think xans can do quite well even with the banshee having init 6 thanks to both their anti cr and anti bs being FR class.

[JonnyBGood]

Well currently xan is the second most picked race (and etd is yet again on a truly woeful 9%). As such basing the stats off a fully balanced universe would probably not be a good idea.

[isildurx]

Don't know why etd is so low, they look pretty okay to me.

Would be fun if they made the anti cr ship a stealer though, maybe that would increase their numbers!

[zebra]

Originally Posted by cbk100

Isn't the EMP eff. way too low? You got kill ships with more or less the same eff. and steal ships with higher eff. To me that seems a bit odd.

I did not play the last single targeting, so my comment might be due to lack of experience with the setup. Maybe single targeting asks for less EMP power...

Having to build spiders to prevent no loss defense against your CO fleet, and only hitting at 115% does seem pretty shit. Who's in charge of these stats?

[Patrikc]

Etd looks good indeed, and though the recent change from Centaur to Defender was a well needed one, stats in the real game haven't been updated yet.

Same goes for Banshee, I expect a few will Xans change race after stats are updated.

Oh, and apparently the Marauder now killing Chims first is bad:

[18:07:33] <Williams> there was no other decent way to play zik
[18:07:37] <Williams> now it just sucks

I strongly disagree with that, I'd much rather have the Marauder kill first than steal De later. Anyone else that hates the change, though?

[goldfries]

looking at the stats, I wonder why T2 and T3 are missing. All ships are with T1 only.

[isildurx]

This is a single-targetting round.

I have to say that I think appoco has done a good job on the stats. Personally I have no idea what race to go, guess that is a good thing.
I'm kind of curious as to why there are so many caths though. I would guess that this was because Cath was so successful for gaining xp in the last single-targetting round, however, I don't really see them being as successfull this round as they were 2 rounds ago.

[Patrikc]

Fully in agreement with you Isil, the only race I'm definitely NOT going is Cath, because I intend to play for value (which is very hard to do in Single Targeting). I still toy with strategies for all other races.

I think Cath is so popular due to their offensive strength, and not having to worry about def so much (since you'll get roided anyway!). Attacking is much less stressful than defending/defwhoring, so that makes sense for a summer round.

[Zaejii]

i'm curious how many cat support/scan planets we will see with mass spider/widow personally.

[zebra]

Originally Posted by Zaejii

i'm curious how many cat support/scan planets we will see with mass spider/widow personally.

And ter phoenix planets.

[Light]

Originally Posted by isildurx

This is a single-targetting round.

I have to say that I think appoco has done a good job on the stats. Personally I have no idea what race to go, guess that is a good thing.
I'm kind of curious as to why there are so many caths though. I would guess that this was because Cath was so successful for gaining xp in the last single-targetting round, however, I don't really see them being as successfull this round as they were 2 rounds ago.

Are you struggling to decide what race to go, due to all the races looking awesome? or due to them all looking extremly crap?

There's 2 ways to balance stats, make every race awesome or make every race weak. When i look at these stats.. Im not trying to choose between 5 races or figure out which is the best.. im trying to find out which is the least ****.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Patrikc

Fully in agreement with you Isil, the only race I'm definitely NOT going is Cath, because I intend to play for value (which is very hard to do in Single Targeting). I still toy with strategies for all other races.

I think Cath is so popular due to their offensive strength, and not having to worry about def so much (since you'll get roided anyway!). Attacking is much less stressful than defending/defwhoring, so that makes sense for a summer round.

In fairness it's also because every scanner, nobody dist whores anymore good job pateam, and almost every cov-op planet goes cath. And with only 600 sign-ups so far that's a fairly high proportion probably.

[Light]

Caths are nowhere near as strong as they were in the previous ST. last time, pure beetle spam meant no alliance could efficiently defend against you and the only real good defence ship was Terran FR/DE and no-one went that way or each active galaxy only had 1 terran.

Terrans, Xans and Zik's have anti cath-co alliance defence ships, meaning you'll need to build Spiders and Beetles or else terrans can freely defend against you but then with that.. you've got to split your attacking fleet into both Fi/Co which means Terrans, Xans, Ziks, Caths ETD's can defend against you in alliance speeds.

I think Cath's spamming one ship will be the ultimate fail this round.

[JonnyBGood]

Despite the fact that cath wasn't that strong last ST round, only 11 finished t100, and the actual anti-cath fi ship was the barghest, terrans only had harpies, I'd agree. However cath and xan fi/co mix well this time, which was something I deliberately tried to avoid when I did the stats. That said fr and cr teamups both look equally as viable as the fi/co one, with the added benefit of being able to pick which class you want to damage compensating fairly adequately for the lower eta in my opinion.

I reckon the stats look pretty good. Every fleet bar zik de can hit 2 or more races. Everything is improved by teaming up. The weakest offensive race is terran which is also the strongest defensively. On the evidence of last round ziks are the strongest race once they get going in single-targeting, with a huge advantage due to the added potential in value gain stealing and faking, and don't look overpowered as, if anything, they seem a little weak. Etd look interesting and have almost as much potential for faking as zik (pretty much every etd is going to cap xan fi pods this round).

I actually have no idea what the difference between every race looks crap and every race looks good unless nobody can actually roid anything. In this stats set that's not true. So...

[Patrikc]

Originally Posted by Light

Caths are nowhere near as strong as they were in the previous ST. last time, pure beetle spam meant no alliance could efficiently defend against you and the only real good defence ship was Terran FR/DE and no-one went that way or each active galaxy only had 1 terran.

You mixed up Ter with Etd's Barghest. Otherwise I think you're right.

[HeimdallR]

Don't think many will build DE fleets, all the rest should be fair game.

[Kaiba]

this round should be called beware the phoenix!! Its gonna cause havoc for cath co fleets all round!!

cant wait...

[Paisley]

Originally Posted by Light

Terrans, Xans and Zik's have anti cath-co alliance defence ships, meaning you'll need to build Spiders and Beetles or else terrans can freely defend against you but then with that.. you've got to split your attacking fleet into both Fi/Co which means Terrans, Xans, Ziks, Caths ETD's can defend against you in alliance speeds.

Well it is a good point however

Ter (harpy) and Etd (Voyager) Fi can still be used as freezer flak v cath co
with assistance from Fi class anti Co like Cutlass and Vsh
For example

http://game.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=5t1xzyymrb6ibes

If those Ter and Etd ships werent present in the defense it would be a 0 loss landing for the attacker.

[isildurx]

DE might not be the best fleet for attacking, but I think Terrans and Ziks can be well off with building some de(rather than co and fi respectively) and then dump the remaining resources into their cr\bs attackfleets. This is because I expect both xans and caths to have to use most of their res on anti fi and co ships and thus having a DE fleet will make you a very unenviable target.

[M0RPH3US]

will we see cathaar co have to send along spiders all round ?

[isildurx]

yes.... unless they team with xan

That being said, I can easily envisage a situation later on in the round where caths who are on the hunt for xp don't send along fi and just whore co. Then they would obviously send\resend until there is no nix def on jgp.

[Light]

Originally Posted by Paisley

Well it is a good point however

Ter (harpy) and Etd (Voyager) Fi can still be used as freezer flak v cath co
with assistance from Fi class anti Co like Cutlass and Vsh
For example

http://game.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=5t1xzyymrb6ibes

If those Ter and Etd ships werent present in the defense it would be a 0 loss landing for the attacker.

no.....

http://game.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=1z8w12jt285m8ae
Is what i meant, meaning that caths will have to send Fi along with there Co attacking fleet to avoid that situation and splitting your fleet into Fi/Co means that there are more options to defend against you.

While yes, any Fi can be used as flak.. Alliances wont tend to want to use flak when they could just send some phoenix's and get a free kill/recall from one small fleet (if the cath just sends co). If the cath sends Fi as well, (without loading up the stats) then every race now has a defenceship which can meet the alliance defence times.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by HeimdallR

Don't think many will build DE fleets, all the rest should be fair game.

That's actually worth thinking about it a bit. There are only 4 ships that really **** up de, the wyvern, the marauder, the avenger and the vendor. The first two can only ingal def, and are used in attack fleets anyways. The last two can only be built by one race, which is also the most under-represented race in the universe. Not as bad as it first appears.

[Light]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

That's actually worth thinking about it a bit. There are only 4 ships that really **** up de, the wyvern, the marauder, the avenger and the vendor. The first two can only ingal def, and are used in attack fleets anyways. [b]The last two can only be built by one race[/b=, which is also the most under-represented race in the universe. Not as bad as it first appears.

Cath Co scarab, Xan Fi Banshee, Zik Fi Corsair, ETD Co Avenger can all defend against DE and have a -1 eta advantage. Avenger and Banshee are also cloaked, which could be annoying

I do like the look of Terran DE and Zik DE though. If i liked the Zik playstyle, i'd probably be Zik this round.

[HeimdallR]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

That's actually worth thinking about it a bit. There are only 4 ships that really **** up de, the wyvern, the marauder, the avenger and the vendor. The first two can only ingal def, and are used in attack fleets anyways. The last two can only be built by one race, which is also the most under-represented race in the universe. Not as bad as it first appears.

Well they are great to hit xan with, but i can't see them working well against any other race. Zik and ter will go heavy on wyvern and marauder, etd aren't a great choice either.
Scarab combined with banshee or avenger should stop them to.

But stats aren't bad, you can go anyway you want with these.

edit: just noticed i said the same as light

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Light

Cath Co scarab, Xan Fi Banshee, Zik Fi Corsair, ETD Co Avenger can all defend against DE and have a -1 eta advantage. Avenger and Banshee are also cloaked, which could be annoying

Yeah but you could talk about that for everyone. Hence why I used the words really **** up. Like phoenixes really **** up cath co, spectres **** up cr etc.

[M0RPH3US]

terran pegs will have fun with banshees really so with corsair

[LordNieminen]

... single targetting crap.. the more I look at those stats there more I'm sure it's going to be lottery and screw skills as your required to avoid incomings like plague as your own are always in dis-advantage in comparison to attackers values in team ups.

[M0RPH3US]

you killed the discussion


cathaarghhh dropped to 28%

[JonnyBGood]

Down to 27% now and etd up to 12%!

[M0RPH3US]

i switched to xan, and now everyone going etd bs ?

i hate my life

[HeimdallR]

maybe they are going frig

[Zaejii]

omg! fr/de forts everywhere!! aaaaahhhh!!! /panic /rage /moan

if only wishmaster and light would check the strategy forum we might be in trouble

[Patrikc]

Originally Posted by HeimdallR

maybe they are going frig

Etd Fr can roid Xan just as easily!

[Onim]

in terms of diversity the etd are a real strong race. Attackwise they are the race 'others will want in their teamup' as cath doesnt have FR nor DE pods so the etd's FR EMP ships are very valuable.

Same as with the BS, it has cloacked tycoons! Any cr or bs attacker will want those in teamup, and the Etd bs is the best EMP resistant fleet too.

I feel like ppl found out too late that Etd is so good, as its still 12% that went etd. as Etd BS ppl will be vulnerable to FI and CO (as you wont be building so many merchants which are useless for ur allian) but thats only 2 attackfleets you have to worry about, where the cath does not kill you anyway. Mass voyagers and be lucky to steal some spiders or xan FI and the anti FI/CO will get better.

Then, avengers will ace vs DE, and the change to Defenders being CR emp ship has made the picture complete in my opinion.
Yes, some Fi/Co fleets will get through on ETDs, but I cannot imagine that many ppl being fond of the xan FI or Cath CO.

[Kaiba]

i would agree but 25% of the uni have gone Cath and you'd assume 20% of them will go co atleast

Etd will get roided to hell cos of this reason

[Sun_Tzu]

Originally Posted by Kaiba

this round should be called beware the phoenix!!

Offtopic but the round of the phoenix was rnd4 iirc.

[LordNieminen]

etd is weak cheese but if the fi/co fleets can only hit etd's.. it's going to be slim pickings for people. Especially when all fr/de players will hit fi/co players as primary.. god help the alliance who goes for fi/co when they have to attack with their anti-fr/de ships aswell..