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Unread 22 Sep 2008, 08:40   #1
Kenny
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The Cluster ETA

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rules
1) Support planets
- "Scan" planets will not be governed by support planet rules in regards to scanning. Attacking and defending will still be governed by support planet rules.*
- Covert op planets will be governed by support planet rules if found to be working for one alliance that they're not tagged with**
- Support planet rules don't involve alliance block action where two or more alliances wave the same galaxy - often this isn't even an indication of co-operation
- Attack support planets are those who put other's needs before their own (e.g. escorting attacks to eta 1, attacking without pods, fake attacks to divert defence in galaxy attacks)******
- Defence support planets are those defending roughly more than the minimum of either 3 times per week or 25% of their defence fleets out of galaxy and alliance. ***
- Planets that are support planets will be closed. If no evidence can be found to link the support planet(s) to the targets, only the support planets themselves will be closed. If there is found to be some level of agreement or organisation, the planet benefiting will be closed as well.****
- Alliances found to have a group of support planets will be warned (under the circumstances of the previous point). If the problem reoccurs, the MHs reserve the right to take action against the alliances in the form of a penalty up to 10% of their score.

If someone is breaking these rules then they will be closed unless the infraction is minor, in which case a warning will be issued.
If we find that the spirit of this rule is being violated, then we will warn the person or people involved and add the offense to this list.
Can I ask - what is the purpose of the cluster defence ETA bonus? One assumes that sending defense incluster with reduced ETA (the SAME bonus available to alliance defense) is, in fact, encouraged. You're encouraged to work as an alliance, with the defense incentive being a -1 ETA reduction. So isn't giving the same ETA advantage a sign that a planet should work as part of a cluster, too?

Should there be any cross-cluster defense between alliances, should this be in breach of the support planet rule, and why?

Last edited by Kenny; 25 Sep 2008 at 18:47.
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Unread 22 Sep 2008, 16:15   #2
HaNzI
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Re: The Cluster ETA

Can i ask where you found those rules kenny or did you write them urself?
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Unread 22 Sep 2008, 18:13   #3
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Re: The Cluster ETA

heh, noob.
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Unread 22 Sep 2008, 21:31   #4
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Re: The Cluster ETA

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Originally Posted by HaNzI View Post
Can i ask where you found those rules kenny or did you write them urself?
http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=195254

This is where he found the clarification of some rules.

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Originally Posted by Kenny View Post
heh, noob.
Kenny, it is perfectly normal to not know about a particular thread, since there are many. It is more n00bish not to refer to your sources.
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Unread 22 Sep 2008, 21:44   #5
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Re: The Cluster ETA

- Defence support planets are those defending roughly more than the minimum of either 3 times per week or 25% of their defence fleets out of galaxy and alliance. ***

Seems to me that this means that these limits allow you some cluster defense.
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Unread 22 Sep 2008, 23:38   #6
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Re: The Cluster ETA

and why not change the cluster eta bonus for a race eta bonus ?
-1 eta if you go def a planet of your own race...
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Unread 25 Sep 2008, 17:06   #7
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Re: The Cluster ETA

I assumed that the in-cluster ETA(-1) was a way of encouraging more interaction between gals in a cluster. Similar to the way a MoC can message all the other MoC's in a cluster.

Clusters may have chosen not to cooperate thus far, but it would add another interesting dynamic to game play if they were to organize and players were to have the additional option of in-cluster def.

- Defense support planets are those defending roughly more than the minimum of either 3 times per week or 25% of their defense fleets out of galaxy and alliance.

That particular rule, if cluster cooperation is in fact encouraged, should be amended to include the cluster. However, from what I've seen, the whole question is void, as I've never seen a cluster cooperate like that (correct me if I'm wrong... which I'm sure you all will with many a snide comment ).
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Unread 25 Sep 2008, 18:06   #8
Kenny
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Re: The Cluster ETA

How is the question 'void'? On the basis that you've not seen clusters cooperating (perhaps because you're possibly new and could've missed a lot of the game's varying trends over the years) - you think that the fundemantals dont apply? My query was a hypothetical based on the set of rules and gameplay mechanics that presented somewhat conflicting messages; the practicality of which would only be relevent if I was using a case reference.

In order to eliminate the conflicting signals, there'd have to be a change. You named one change that would sort the situation, but would it spark bigger problems? How would we then catch the actual support planets if we loosen the rules for those trying to stick within them?

You're right though - nobody really makes use of the cluster eta apart from alliance before they tag. Which is silly, as the point of not tagging is to mask their members and hide their size, so deffing pre-tag defeats the purpose a little bit. You did get a lot of cluster alliances back in the day. In fact some of the biggest and best alliances in PA history were formed from the cluster alliances of yore. But due to the onus on alliances, and the defense system therein, it's bad enough trying to find a balance of attacking, defending ingal and defending intag as it is. Actively encouraging cluster defense as well will spread people's fleets even more thinly.

So we need to decide on a direction the gameplay should go. Personally, I'd prefer taking the game away from playing for tag ranks, and go back to planet/gal/cluster. Given that the MAJORITY of alliance play is done outside of the PA-provided tools and utilities, I think tag rank should only be monitored 3rd party through the likes of sandmans.

Would this cut down the number of support planets? Well, there'd be no pressure on alliances to recruit them, as they'd not be important to the alliance anymore. Alliances would become purely about the social and military aspect (which is what they're best for anyway). If people weren't playing as support, would they try a little harder individually?

But of course, if we were going to focus on cluster play then we'd have to make sure that there were less gals per cluster. At the moment we can see up to 10 gals in a cluster, giving around 10 clusters. How about limiting it to 5 gals per cluster, doubling the amount?

Taking away tag ranks and making changes to focus on clusters would, like you said, make for an interesting game dynamic that got overshadowed by an increasing dependence on alliances and lack of support for cluster play.

So you see WallBiter, there's a lot more possibility for discussion if you're talking in hypothetical or theoretical sense, rather than talking about a specific incident (which, being the forums, would ultimately just end up in a bitchfest)

And HaNzI, they're on the forums. Also, I'm sure that if you looked in to it, even just a little bit, you'd discover they teach you how to use an 'internet search' function long before they teach Harvard's Law of Referencing at school.

Last edited by Kenny; 25 Sep 2008 at 18:31.
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Unread 25 Sep 2008, 18:27   #9
WallBiter
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Re: The Cluster ETA

If you actually read what I wrote, Kenny, I believe the rule should be amended to include an exception for cluster defense... in addtion, spell checked.

I believe my statement that, from my observation, there is a lack of cluster cooperation took nothing away from your original post... I for one would like to see a round in which my cluster bands together.

I think you might want to curb your bloodlust for anyone that may raise a point you haven't, and respond in a manner fitting someone of your...
...experience and knowledge. Perhaps you would be taken more seriously (at least by myself).
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Unread 25 Sep 2008, 18:33   #10
Kenny
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Re: The Cluster ETA

I hadn't finished. I was already editing the post when you replied.
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Unread 25 Sep 2008, 20:15   #11
WallBiter
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Re: The Cluster ETA

And that's a bit better, now isn't it? In future, Kenny, I'll give you plenty of time to fully formulate your arguments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny View Post
So isn't giving the same ETA advantage a sign that a planet should work as part of a cluster, too?

Should there be any cross-cluster defense between alliances, should this be in breach of the support planet rule, and why?
Especially when I am agreeing with you in a general sense.

The problems associated with one simple change in the rule are going to be present regardless of said change. An explosion in cluster support planets following said change may indeed be possible, but likely a small percentage of the current number. Support planets are a large issue, one that is difficult or impossible to completely solve...

There have been many ally strategies employed throughout the history of PA. As the game has changed, so have they. When was the last great single cluster ally of your memory? Of the myriad of cluster uses, I remember the best being either several cluster allys controlled by an outside ally and the cluster wing structures (also run by outside allys).

I will repeat that I would like to see more in-cluster cooperation. That was all.

If you want to look at the direction the game should go in, why didn't you just say so?

First, the tagged allys implement a greater social structure to the game. limiting the in game play to planet > gal > cluster would have many limiting factors. I enjoy playing with those that I've known from my beginning round, regardless of where we wind up in the uni.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny View Post
Taking away tag ranks and making changes to focus on clusters would, like you said, make for an interesting game dynamic that got overshadowed by an increasing dependence on alliances and lack of support for cluster play.
Taking away tagged allys or simply the inside game rankings of tagged allys in my mind would actually encourage allys to recruit support planets. How much easier would it be to flagship a planet for an ally? We would all still be watching in Sandman's and know which ally was leading and had the leading planets. And then the admins would have to join the rest of us. Much complicating for a task that is complex enough.

Not to mention the fact that ally blocking could possibly become the rage again. Personally, I think the NAP's and teaming of allys is terrible. This round showed us that tagging early, being active and organized is the way to win. One ally of up to 75 planets against other allys of up to 75 planets. If you can't take the competition alone, too bad for you.

I'm interested to see what the next round brings, seeing as it (and apparently the subsequent rounds) are going to be "free' rounds. Hopefully, it'll bring a bigger base back. Or it'll lead to new and clever ways of multi-ing and support planet implementation.

I for one would like to see an actually rebirth of the game, as this has felt like the most lethargic round I've played. I however, think that the outside ally rankings and competition are the most exciting part of the game and would feel limited if they ceased to be a large part of it.
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