Planetarion Forums

Andy_r · 17 Dec 2004, 19:59

What's the deal with this battle?

Attacking fleets: 1 Defending fleets: 5
SHIP Att Lost Held Sub Def Lost Held Sub
Vsharrak Fighter 0 0 0 0 18333 5342 0 0
Daeraith Pulsar 0 0 0 0 13750 2671 0 0
Lyvidian Sentinel 0 0 0 0 6000 0 0 0
Culdassa Arrowhead 0 0 0 0 3500 0 0 0
Andvordian Bomber 0 0 0 0 1333 0 0 0
Tzen Bolt Thrower 0 0 0 0 1100 0 0 0
Maurauder 270 0 0 270 0 0 0 0
Rogue 0 0 0 0 100 0 0 85
Pirate 0 0 0 0 205 0 0 107
Galleon 0 0 0 0 20 0 0 12
Totals 270 0 0 270 44341 8013 0 204
Values 12825 k 0 k 0 k 12825 k 114593 k 8012 k 0 k 10452 k
Surface attack result at TB 303 (19:8:4)
Medium Factory : 1
Metal Refinery : 1
Security Centre : 2

My 1333 Andvordian Bombers should have killed all 270 of the hostile Marauders but not a single one was hit.

All the Zik defence is coming from the same planet as the hostiles, which makes me think this a bug exploit.

Kal · 17 Dec 2004, 20:17

oh thats clever, the priates protect the marauders and the maruaders protect the pirates

Benneh · 17 Dec 2004, 20:17

Its because they got subverted.

If things that got subverted could die, ziks would be waay to powerful.

Its certainly not a bug but yes in alot of cases it can be used in advantage.

Andy_r · 18 Dec 2004, 01:09

This is a serious exploit then, since it's impossible for me to inflict any damage at all on the attacker, and he'll either get salvage if I stay or kill structures if I run.

MAdnRisKy · 18 Dec 2004, 01:44

well no since it's the wrong way around the BS appear to be defendingn so they're not going to kill anything andy.

Andy_r · 18 Dec 2004, 03:15

The BS won't kill anything, but the other 'friendly' zik ships they subvert do!

In the battle report I pasted, they killed:
Vsharrak Fighter : 5342
Daeraith Pulsar : 2671
Medium Factory : 1
Metal Refinery : 1
Security Centre : 2

The person sending the fleets then gets a share of the salvage because he has the 'friendly' ships there that are doing the damage!

Cochese · 18 Dec 2004, 05:25

Subversion.is.fundamentally.flawed.

Case and point here.

Gerbie · 18 Dec 2004, 09:17

It's fun.

MAdnRisKy · 18 Dec 2004, 09:58

true andy sorry, thoiught it was only roids that were a significant issue and you could run, but yes you'd lose structures. subversion is broken, and so is the init on zik bs if you ask me...

Kal · 18 Dec 2004, 11:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cochese

Subversion.is.fundamentally.flawed.

Case and point here.

to be fair its the implementation rather than the theory, stealing would be the same if implemented in this way

Cochese · 18 Dec 2004, 17:54

The problem lies in the fact that subverted ships are invincible and that you can attack/defend the same target.

Even If you made it so that any one planet could not attack and defend any one other planet simultaneously, people would simply team up with another Zik and accomplish the same thing.

I'm interested to see how you "fix" this.

Gerbie · 18 Dec 2004, 22:02

Possibly they will make it so that subverted ships can be destroyed. (So it is no longer usefull to send pirate defence to subvert your own attacking marauders.)

Cochese · 19 Dec 2004, 00:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gerbie

Possibly they will make it so that subverted ships can be destroyed. (So it is no longer usefull to send pirate defence to subvert your own attacking marauders.)

That could be trouble, especially if Xan armor is not increased and targetting/initiatives remain as they are currently.

Losing all my Co/De if I'm not online is one thing...losing all my Co/De and Fi is another entirely.

Yes, there are upsides to this aswell, but it would take people with competance doing the stats to avoid another "r12" Zik fiasco.

Andy_r · 19 Dec 2004, 22:53

Well, one solution would be to delete all planets that use this exploit, we already have 'no cheating' rule which covers this sort of thing.

Kal · 19 Dec 2004, 23:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy_r

Well, one solution would be to delete all planets that use this exploit, we already have 'no cheating' rule which covers this sort of thing.

its not cheating though, this is how it was meant to work, just this is the first round people have used advanced tactics that cuase problems

Forest · 19 Dec 2004, 23:29

Not the first round

The first round on mass!

alch · 20 Dec 2004, 00:05

Quote:

Not the first round

The first round on mass!

indeed - round10.5 was fun ;p

Jonas · 20 Dec 2004, 13:19

Its not a bug, just bad stats as always. Remove subverting for good.

Andy_r · 20 Dec 2004, 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kal

its not cheating though, this is how it was meant to work, just this is the first round people have used advanced tactics that cuase problems

Are you seriously telling me that Ziks are SUPPOSED to be able to kill anyone's ships and get salvage, whenever they like, with absolutely no risk that they could lose any ships?

LocknLoad · 20 Dec 2004, 15:37

Its a sure flaw in the code which the support crew all know about and will do nothing to fix it till next round (maybe}. The only defence is to purposely get someone to attack you (which is against the user agreement) with widows. This will freeze the subversion (but doesnt in the game) then report it to support and they will return your structures. So you have to break the rules and bug support.

Gerbie · 20 Dec 2004, 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by LocknLoad

Its a sure flaw in the code which the support crew all know about and will do nothing to fix it till next round (maybe}. The only defence is to purposely get someone to attack you (which is against the user agreement) with widows. This will freeze the subversion (but doesnt in the game) then report it to support and they will return your structures. So you have to break the rules and bug support.

The BW attack is not against the rules unless you pay the BW attacker by letting him get a few easy roids.

Andy_r · 20 Dec 2004, 21:10

of course, you would need to find BWs with a lower attacking ETA than the Zik fleets, which could prove rather difficult!

HansA · 26 Dec 2004, 14:12

I cant see how you find this zik subvertion to be wrong.
*outflak and destroy!! i say*
I think the Zik Subvertion thingie is excellent!

It makes the game so much more interesting, but yes, it means you have to have buddies to survive. But you could never win this game alone anyways.

Andy_r · 28 Dec 2004, 13:41

Maybe I haven't made myself clear enough? Buddies CANNOT help against this sort of attack.

The only thing that can possibly damage an attacker expoliting this is to have a friend break the rules and launch hostile Zik ships with the SAME ETA. If the attacker has all the eta-reducing technology, this is IMPOSSIBLE, since you won't be able to use the alliance eta reduction (because it would have to be a hostile fleet, not a friendly), and you can't attack in-galaxy.

I'm not complainaing about subvertion, I'm complaining about an exploit of that subvertion that allows attackers to have completely invincible fleets.