Do you hate, or expect to hate, your job?

[Nodrog]

I was reading one of the loonier blogs linked to in Toccata and Fugue's signature (it might have been his, I'm not sure), and in the middle of a fairly rabid piece of Marxist bile, I found the following paragraph:

Working is also losing all meaning, anyone reading this, ask yourselves what you do, how is it helping, can you trace it back to any sort of useful production or investment in society, sure in its own context, but really what’s the point of any of you. Ask yourselves if you are completely irreplaceable. Ask yourselves if you actually look at your job as a cruel form of torture which interrupts things you would rather be doing.

Now, as far as I can tell, this is a fairly common sentiment. Indeed, I've been told similar things since I was a child, and I'm sure my experiences arent unique. We've all heard pithy proverbs like "enjoy your school days - they will be the best of your life", "play hard die young", or "life sucks after university", and these seem to reflect a widely held belief in our society that life after a certain age is going to be miserable. The standard story goes something like this: you will get a job you despise, work for people you dont respect, slave away for 40 hours a week with little to show for it, and then die. You might get married and have kids too, whatever. They'll probably hate you anyway.

Like most stories, its easy to imagine this one being lived by others. Arriving at Canary Wharf at 9am whilst tired and in a bad mood, I am confronted by an ocean-like mass of people in black and grey suits swarming out of the tube station for yet another day at the office. And I think: "thank god my life isnt like that". But this is really just a projection of my mood and state of mind - on other days I will see the same sight, look around at the beautiful buildings that surround me, and smile at how lucky I am to be in the middle of something truly wonderful.

The same principle applies to many other situations. If I am in a negative mood whilst in a nightclub, I may survey my surroundings, notice a lot of drunken morons acting stupidly, and wonder how anyone can genuinelly enjoy a place like this. I might even tell myself that theyre just pretending to enjoy it because its what society expects young people to do. But this is obviously not what they are actually feeling, and on another night when I am in a better mood, I will also be one of the people having a good time. The problem here is that a life viewed from the outside is very different from a life lived from the inside. You cant really understand what someone is feeling just from learning a set of facts about their life, because the standpoint you are assessing them from is likely to be very different from theirs. Some might pity me for spending countless saturday nights posting on internet forums, playing go, and reading books, but I wouldnt swap my life for anything. If I was a bigger faggot I might say something like "the meaning of a text depends entirely on what you bring to it".

So to get back to the point, I'm not interested in how many _others_ you judge to be wasting their lives, because this could very well just be a projection of your dissatisfaction with modern society rather than an objective fact about these people. But what I am interested in is whether you view yourself as having a meaningless existence and spending your life working a shitty job. Since a lot of people here are students, a related question would be: is this where you honestly expect yourself to end up? When you look 5-10 years into the future, is this the kind of life you expect to have?

[Radical Edward]

Originally Posted by Nodrog

I was reading one of the loonier blogs linked to in Toccata and Fugue's signature (it might have been his, I'm not sure), and in the middle a fairly rabid piece of Marxist bile, I found the following paragraph:




Now, as far as I can tell, this is a fairly common sentiment. Indeed, I've been told similar things since I was a child, and I'm sure my experiences arent unique. We've all heard pithy proverbs like "enjoy your school days - they will be the best of your life", "play hard die young", or "life sucks after university", and these seem to reflect a widely held belief in our society that life after a certain age is going to be miserable. The standard story goes something like this: you will get a job you despise, work for people you dont respect, slave away for 40 hours a week with little to show for it, and then die. You might get married and have kids too, whatever. They'll probably hate you anyway.

Like most stories, its easy to imagine this one being lived by others. Arriving at Canary Wharf at 9am whilst tired and in a bad mood, I am confronted by an ocean-like mass of people in black and grey suits swarming out of the tube station for yet another day at the office. And I think: "thank god my life isnt like that". But this is really just a projection of my mood and state of mind - on other days I will see the same sight, look around at the beautiful buildings that surround me, and smile at how lucky I am to be in the middle of something truly wonderful.

aah Canary wharf, wearing a grey suit with a copy of the FT under one's arm, riding round on a unicycle. the only thing that suprised me was the lack of reaction from the un-unicycled grey suit wearing FT carriers.

The same principle applies to many other situations. If I am in a negative mood whilst in a nightclub, I may survey my surroundings, notice a lot of drunken morons acting stupidly, and wonder how anyone can genuinelly enjoy a place like this. I might even tell myself that theyre just pretending to enjoy it because its what society expects young people to do. But this is obviously not what they are actually feeling, and on another night when I am in a better mood, I will also be one of the people having a good time. The problem here is that a life viewed from the outside is very different from a life lived from the inside. You cant really understand what someone is feeling just from learning a set of facts about their life, because the standpoint you are assessing them from is likely to be very different from theirs. Some might pity me for spending countless saturday nights posting on internet forums, playing go, and reading books, but I wouldnt swap my life for anything. If I was a bigger faggot I might say something like "the meaning of a text depends entirely on what you bring to it".

fascinating, I have often notice this, but I always seemed to be alone in doing so. Just kind of looking at the crowd, thinking "what the hell are you people doing" watching their arms flail around as they stumble bleary eyed, back and forth in the smoky, multicoloured haze with the thumping sounds and bottles of overpriced God only knows what. Thankyou for making me feel less alone.

So to get back to the point, I'm not interested in how many _others_ you judge to be wasting their lives, because this could very well just be a projection of your dissatisfaction with modern society rather than an objective fact about these people. But what I am interested in is whether you view yourself as having a meaningless existence and spending your life working a shitty job. Since a lot of people here are students, a related question would be: is this where you honestly expect yourself to end up? When you look 5-10 years into the future, is this the kind of life you expect to have?

I endeavour to do precisely not that, though I suppose that is one of the wonderful things about being in a position where I can choose between doing a job I hate for things I don't need and actually doing something I like. I think much of the above is probably either felt by either people who feel pressured into "getting a high paid job purely because they have the ability to do so" or being "stuck in a crappy job because they don't have the ability to do any better".

waffling aren't I?

if you like, ignore all the previous stuff. No, I don't see myself having a meaningless existance living my life doing a shitty job, I strive to enjoy life and make my work enjoyable too. Granted it is sometimes sifficult to get out of the corporate 8 hours per day mentality, but it is up to me to make sure that I am somewhere I like. I will do the physics thing for a few years, then shift over to biology, then maybe implement the maths with the biology and my programming and even dabble in the stock market or some kind of consultancy work, while all the time keeping up my external hobbies and friends and family. It's a lot of stuff to do, so I don't really have time to get stuck in a shitty job. That being said, ask me again in 5 years

[Dante Hicks]

It was his blog btw.

Anyway, I would say yes overall I do hate my job. The problem is that almost everything in life is judged against other experiences or against expectations. Most people fresh out of University seem to really hate their job, probably because their day-to-day experiences are so much worse than what they're used to.

My first job, under the criteriea I would use to judge most situations (amount of free time, intellectual stimulation, personal freedom when occupied, respect shown by others, number of pretty girls I see per hour, coolness of people around me, feeling of doing something worthwhile, personal reward/renumeration, etc) was overall much much worse than University (or even A-Levels before that).One of the things I found myself shocked by is how tiring it was (and this is something other people have noted when they start working after a long-time out of full-time employment). I'd get home at 7pm after a relatively tedious commute and go straight to sleep. My reading rate dropped to practically nothing. Almost every single person I worked with spent the day fantasising about quitting, or getting a better job, or stabbing one of the managers/customers. Or they were just retarded. Managers would shout about pointless targets not being met (this was a call-centre). You'd be ridiculed for being late. Etc.

Now, compared to that existence, my job now (and even subsequent jobs after that) is unbelievably sweet. I can get to work anytime between 7am and 10am. I've turned up as late as 11am and no-one really minds. I can leave at 4pm, and if I've got something to attend to, I have 10-20 days more leave per year than in my first job. I get to control the work I do when I want to do it. Morale is a lot higher. I do my own projects and my own ideas are taken up and valued by others. When there is a problem people take it up with you in a reasonable fashion. I'm paid a lot more (nothing to show for it mind you, but that's another matter). You get the idea.

But if I take some time off (1-2 weeks off) or if I compare my daily work life compared to what it's like on my University course (when I go in) when I get back to work I realise how awful it is. Most of my time is still taken up with utterly irrelevancies. I do ocassionally get a thrill out of working (e.g. when I can cut the amount of pointless work we undertake through automation of processes) - but that's comparatively rare (and not necessarily an accurate picture of how I feel since I abuse stimulants (caffeine, ritalin, amphetamines) to get through the work day). The final goal of my work, the theoretical ethos my company is supposed to abide by (providing people with low cost high quality homes) is quite noble but the daily practicalities are so far removed from (or simply counter to) these aims that it's easy to get disheartened, or feel it's all pointless.

There was a blog I read once which said something like "Most people's job could be done in 1-2 hours per day if they didn't waste their time". That's definitely true from what I've seen. I'd imagine I'm particularly bad, but if I look at what other people are doing with their days (making coffee, chatting about big brother, making phone calls, doing work that doesn't really need to be doing) the majority of the day is spent trying to avoid the task they've actually got to do.

So am I satisfied? No. Ask me in five years. I'll probably be more satisfied, perversely. Simply because I'll have forgotten what freedom really is/was and I'll be happy that I'm on a bit more money with a bit more respect/freedom in my job. I'll be blind to the problems of my work, or of work in general.

This is understood by companies, at least partially. In the first 6-12 months I was with my current company I had various discussions with directors, etc - as to what I thought the problems were, how we could improve, etc. They said that "a fresh pair of eyes" could see things that others couldn't. And they're kind of right. When I first joined I noticed that we printed out about 10,000 letters a week and through approximately 90% of them were thrown in the bin, after they had been manually checked. I asked why this was, and apparently it was because the computer system couldn't distinguish between Account X or Account Y (or something like that). Basically they had a whole team of people working for hours on end to do the job of one script. This seemed like utter insanity, but apparently there wasn't a budget code to remedy this problem, or it was harder than originally thought, and one of the guys who was fixing it left recently, blah, blah. But after a year or so, I had to show someone new around the building and I had to explain what various people were doing and it seemed vaguely reasonable you'd have a whole bunch of people doing something as pointless as this.

[Nodrog]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

But if I take some time off (1-2 weeks off) or if I compare my daily work life compared to what it's like on my University course (when I go in) when I get back to work I realise how awful it is.

...

So am I satisfied? No. Ask me in five years. I'll probably be more satisfied, perversely. Simply because I'll have forgotten what freedom really is/was and I'll be happy that I'm on a bit more money with a bit more respect/freedom in my job. I'll be blind to the problems of my work, or of work in general.
.

I think there's something fishy about this, but I cant quite put my finger on what it is. It reminds me of being on a drug trip, where you say "normal life is wrong and an illusion - THIS is what reality is like". But then when you wake up the following day you 'realise' that your previous experiences were just drugs, and tell yourself that you are now in real reality. It's like we want to stand outside our lives and start comparing different experiences from the point of view of noone.

There's this idea that we adapt to bad things by 'forgetting' what it was like to be really free or happy. But we wouldnt say this in similar situations, such as when we adapt to a song or TV series that we disliked at first but later grew on us. If someone doesnt enjoy heavy metal but ends up liking it through living with a roommate who plays it everyday, would it be fair to say he doesnt really enjoy it but just got used to the random noises and screaming? Or that he had forgotten (or lost the ability to appreciate) real music?

A similar kind of situation arises when people say things like "I used to think I was in love but I was wrong - THIS is what real love is like!". It makes it sound like we can put feelings that were seperated by several years side by side, and then compare them like we would compare different cars or pictures in a magazine. But in reality it may well just be that the feeling is stronger because we are living it in the present rather than in our memory.

I get the same thing you mentioned in summer sometimes when I have to get a temporary job. When I start working, I'll normally hate it. But then in a few weeks I'll adapt. I wont be conscious of being 'less happy' than I was before I started working, and there's no obvious way to make a comparasion. So I cant really say. My life now is quite different than it was maybe 3 years ago. But I dont know whether to say its better or worse - I have no idea what criteria I could use to make such a decision. I know that I'm happy now and I can remember that I was happy then, but saying anything beyond that seems to be meaningless.

[NEWSBOT3]

I don't so much hate my job, as I hate the necessity of getting up and doing something for the majority of my day just to earn enough money to live on.

if i could work half the time, and still get by, that'd be nice.

[Radical Edward]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

So am I satisfied? No. Ask me in five years. I'll probably be more satisfied, perversely. Simply because I'll have forgotten what freedom really is/was and I'll be happy that I'm on a bit more money with a bit more respect/freedom in my job. I'll be blind to the problems of my work, or of work in general.

sounds vaguely orwellian. like "chocolate rations have gone up"

[Dante Hicks]

If someone doesnt enjoy heavy metal but ends up liking it through living with a roommate who plays it everyday, would it be fair to say he doesnt really enjoy it but just got used to the random noises and screaming? Or that he had forgotten (or lost the ability to appreciate) real music?

That's a good point, but I think a reasonable measure would be what they chose to listen to when not forced. If I had a real choice*, I'd leave my job in an instant (or cut my hours by 90%) - and I don't see that ever changing. But your point is quite accurate - when I was younger I probably wanted to sleep with a supermodel but realised I'd have to "make do" with non-super models. Now there's no way I'd give up my current girlfriend for a supermodel (even if such a choice was offered).

In other measures, I "make do" by living in a terraced house, rather than a mansion. And given the choice I might live in a mansion. With music or girlfriends it's slightly different though.

As I say, later in life I'll be *more* satisfied, not satisfied as a whole. Perhaps you could measure satisfaction through some sort of test, e.g. how many times do you fantasies about gunning down your colleagues a day, or jumping out the window, or something like that.

* = This is a debatable point, but hopefully you know what I mean. I could leave my job right now, but it would cause an unreasonable amount of pain / inconvenience to do so.

[roadrunner_0]

Originally Posted by NEWSBOT3

I don't so much hate my job, as I hate the necessity of getting up and doing something for the majority of my day just to earn enough money to live on.

if i could work half the time, and still get by, that'd be nice.

this is very true, I actually really like my job, i'm one of the few people i know who does. This doesn't mean that it couldn't be improved upon, but i think i am fairly unlikely to ever manage to find another workplace as nice as this one, although i could quite easily find one with more money, i am loath to do so, as i don't want to spend my days in drudgery that i hate

[Nodrog]

Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue

Same thing as D, I hate my job, but man is it sweet compared to the shit other people have to put up with.

So is your dislike of the social structure based on your own experiences, or those which you think others are having? And if you hate your job, why dont you leave?

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by Nodrog

And if you hate your job, why dont you leave?

1. There aren't any better jobs (or so it seems, that are available to someone at my "level").
2. I don't fancy starving to death / being on benefits.

[ceres]

The most frustrating thing i came across whilst working working for someone else, was having to watch bad decisions being made and not have the power/influence to stop them. Completing a task which you know isnt what's needed makes my blood boil.

It doesn't get any better when your working for yourself either. You have to keep reminding yourself that no employee is going to have the same enthusiasm and energy for a task, that the employer has and therefore the task will never be completed as quickly as one would like.


I dont believe i hate my work, however my short temper and poor people skills certainly have me wishing i wasnt here alot of the time.
________
DDbreastsWOW

[Weeks]

After my first degree I was on the verge of getting a job in computer games programming. After much deliberation I decided that, although it would be cool to help make a game, and I enjoy doing things I'm good at, and I'd be getting good money, in a couple of years time I'd be thinking: 'Great, but, so what?''

I'm sure the majority of cool jobs I could get would make me feel like that in the end.

I put this down to a wanting to do something worthwhile. In 5 years time i'm sure I will have had plenty more of shitty bar jobs, but I have a plan. I hope it'll work out. But as the job market just tries to fit you into a system thats main objective is to make money not necessarily do something worthwhile, it will be hard.

[Sarina_Joy]

I don't hate my work. I hate aspects of my work. I hate my work at certain times of the year.

As someone with a degree in Maths, according to most people, I really shouldn't be working in a restaurant. The thing is I do like the job, I like the type of work - running a small business appeals to me in many many ways and it's what I eventually hope to do (be manager of something somewhere I just don't know what).

Having said that I agree entirely with the quote from T&Fs blog. Work has lost all meaning. I'm sure people used to work because everything everyone did helped the local community and so on. I'm sure there used to be a work ethic. Not one of drudgery but one of enthusiasm. It has gone. People don't want to work any more. I just don't understand it and it makes me very sad/angry.

I live and work in the town of Oban where I was brought up. It is a tourist town. In winter weeks the restaurant I work in takes in £200 on a very good day. In summer it's more like £3000. So every March or April we (the Manageress and myself (and the other supervisor who likes to call himself assistant manager but who doesn't actually DO anything managerial)) start the long irritating task of trying to find staff for the season. Finding staff isn't too hard. Keeping them is.

Lazy. Thick. These are the two main types of people we find. Quite often rolled into one. I started working in my place of work 5 years ago. I have stayed because I like the way it is run and because the manager is hard working, very fair and wouldn't ask anyone to do anything she wouldn't do herself. Yet when you ask people to do something as simple as wipe a shelf you'd think you were torturing them. God forbid you actually expect them to notice that the shelf is dirty themselves. Like I said. Lazy. Thick. It's ****ing torture for me.

So yes, I hate my job at this time of year for these reasons. Equally there are reasons why I love my job at this time of year, for example I take on extra responsibility which I thrive on. However I am one of those strange people, and I think it's becoming more rare these days, who actually believes in the value of work and believes that if you have a job you should try your hardest to do it well. As such I shall not leave this job until I feel I have achieved all I can in it.

[KoeN]

working isn't 'fun' (almost per definition i would say). but i guess very few students expect to hate their future jobs, because most of them chose for a study with in their minds a nice job-perspective they could get after finishing it.

[All Systems Go]

I am a student. I have one year left on my course (assuming that I don't fail due to unbelievable laziness) and I have no idea what I am going to do once I leave. I have no desire to do any particular job and can see myself ending up working in a shitty unfulfilling desk job surrounded by people I hate until the day I die.

[Deepflow]

I don't really expect to like my job... although, when i worked as a drugs worker/hostel support worker/drop in assistant at a drugs/mental health project for a year before uni. I DID enjoy it, I actually felt i was doing something worthwhile and i was spending most of the time interacting directly with humans and although it sounds corny and overused: "making a difference". Hence why i want to get some kind of career either in the caring sector or social work or something else like that (not teacher).

Also, considering the thread started by mentioning Marx, it's probably time to do so again. How much of the dislike of your job's is to do with alienation (as Marx meant it) and how much is to do with your jobs just being shit? I'm genuinely interested to know the answer.

[Deepflow]

Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue

Well I knew a guy who worked for Playboy TV as a producer and said that for the first year it was great btu after a while he just became very jaded and in fact he is acting in my film. I didn't have much sympathy with him.

Richie Edwards from the Manic Street Preachers did some rant about how modern life had even reduced the occupation of rock star to a daily drudgery.

There are ills in society which create a level of dissatisfaction which can't be quelled whether you had a great job or not.

Oh, i agree there, i still hate capitalism with all my heart and soul.

But that doesn't mean that some jobs aren't worth doing, jobs which directly improve the quality of life for others, before your eyes; and are at the same time different every day and interesting, would definitely be bearable. I'm not sure for how many years, but for a lot longer than the pointless workings of an office where you never see a single result even if you work there for 50 years.

Also, the drudgery of life is why drugs were invented. If i could spend every working day looking forward to going home and smoking weed, it definitely wouldn't seem so bad.

[Cannon_Fodder]

Unless your job is what you would do recreationally, then I suspect most people would hate their jobs.

[Weeks]

Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue

I have only just noted upon re-reading this thread that Nodrog reads my lefty blog. I feel a sense of personal achievement.

I read it as well :O.

[Tactitus]

I couldn't work very long at a job that I didn't truly enjoy doing (my tolerance for that seems to be decreasing as I get older). It's easy to get complacent in a job that you've been doing for a while--to draw a box around yourself (or let others do it for you).

The larger question 'is my job meaningful to society' seems largely unanswerable. I've worked on some projects that got cancelled before they were finished, so was that work utterly meaningless? Probably, in retrospect. But the thing is, how do you know until you try?

I thought this was interesting.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by Deepflow

How much of the dislike of your job's is to do with alienation (as Marx meant it) and how much is to do with your jobs just being shit?

Well most jobs are shit partially because they're alienating (or prone to alienation, whatever).

To give a modern spin on Marx, I'd say that the human brain probably is attuned to behaviour/reward model. You complete a task, you feel better. Of the various temp jobs I've done, ones involving manual labour have often been the most satisfying in a strange sort of way. Once you've finished a day's work you can tell you've actually done something. I can't say the same for most days at my current job. Of course, this is not to say all tasks need to be physical, and I feel quite a lot of satisfaction when something is working/finished - but it can be a lot harder to see the point of what I'm doing sometimes.

[Nodrog]

Originally Posted by Deepflow

How much of the dislike of your job's is to do with alienation (as Marx meant it) and how much is to do with your jobs just being shit?

Given that very few people here are likely to be involved in production, how would Marx's alienation concept apply? Does it make sense to talk about alienation in a service industry job without making a series of ad hoc modifications to Marx's theory?

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by Tactitus

I've worked on some projects that got cancelled before they were finished, so was that work utterly meaningless? Probably, in retrospect. But the thing is, how do you know until you try?.

If you worked for my work, you'd be able to tell as soon as you attended the first pre-steering group committee meeting and read the minutes of the previous (now disbanded) project team meeting on diversity and equality.

[Dead_Meat]

I've been in the same company for eight years. Within that time I've done four different jobs, two of which had never existed before (Automated Product Testing) and as such, I was given pretty free reign on how it was done.
After a while, I'd admit that each of these jobs got pretty dull and repetitive, but each time, I've been lucky that I've been able to move into another department that's been more interesting.

Right now, I'm sick and tired of sorting out trivial customer problems with idiots that refuse to acknowledge they know nothing about basic IP principles, but the job is changing as we bring in a new generation of product that will be an Industry standard.

Maybe I've bene lucky, but then again, if you don't like your job, you need to look around and find something you do like. if you sit on your arse complaining about it, then you only have yourself to blame if you're still there ten years later.
Think about your job as an 'enabler', something that enables you to buy food, beer and pay rent, it also enables you to apply for better jobs and have a valid reason why you want to move.
The other thing I've learnt is that companies have a lot of shit jobs and not so many good jobs. What you need to do is work out what the shit ones are and start working out how you're going to get one of the good jobs.

Simple really...

[Marilyn Manson]

I love my job because I don't have to do anything for it. I pick up a phone at 5pm twice a week and hand it back in at 8am the next morning. I have to respond to anything that happens in the building during that period of course, but usually ****-all happens. Sometimes I just **** off and go out drinking if I suspect it's going to be a quiet night.

The only people I've known who actually, on balance, really liked their jobs, were people who had jobs rather like mine, where the pressure on them to actually commit themselves was non-existant. Most actual 'work' seems to be just pure drudgery for most people.

[Tactitus]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

If you worked for my work, you'd be able to tell as soon as you attended the first pre-steering group committee meeting and read the minutes of the previous (now disbanded) project team meeting on diversity and equality.

I wouldn't/couldn't work any place where I had to attend meetings like that--I'd rather sell my organs on the black market. :/

[Deepflow]

Originally Posted by Nodrog

Given that very few people here are likely to be involved in production, how would Marx's alienation concept apply? Does it make sense to talk about alienation in a service industry job without making a series of ad hoc modifications to Marx's theory?

they dont have to be ad hoc, im sure they have been done to death, just not by me.

Although i wasn't neccesarily talking about a service industry, but perhaps an office job or something. A job where you don't see any results and only involve yourself in a small part of the process can be just as alienating as turning a spinning jenny or whatever all day (or some other random industrial age job), and for exactly the same reasons. Why that would be more alienating than working out the accounts for someone elses bank at someone elses company for not much money with people you hate, i don't know. They both sound pretty shit to me. Although the former would probably be harder work.

Considering how much the world has changed since he died, there are not neccesarily any problems with making ad hoc modifications to his theories, as long as you keep the spirit of them.

[Nodrog]

But then surely alienation isnt inherant to capitalism? I mean assuming office jobs exist under communism, it would presumably be the same - people wouldnt see any final product arising from their labour. Unless youre saying that under communism all jobs will be manual labour.

[Deepflow]

it probably isnt inherent to capitalism, more to industrialisation and industries and companies being generally bigger. I'm certainly no communist though, although perhaps i should have said that earlier. I agree with a lot of what Marx said was wrong with capitalism, but i also have no idea how it could be done better.

heh.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by Nodrog

But then surely alienation isnt inherant to capitalism? I mean assuming office jobs exist under communism, it would presumably be the same - people wouldnt see any final product arising from their labour. Unless youre saying that under communism all jobs will be manual labour.

Manual labour isn't necessarily non-alienated labour, it's just often easier to see (literally in some cases) the outcome of what you're doing. Not in all cases. If you take a Fordist production line, the guy putting on a particular component may find it difficult to visualise / appreciate the value in what he is doing.

I'd say an artist or someone who programs a project from start to finish has probably less chance of being alienated from the fruits of his or her labour than someone who works in a manual labour production line for instance.

Alienation takes many different forms, and in totality is a massive theory (you can read Meszaro's 'Theory of Alienation' if you want to read a fuller treatment on the subject). But yes, it's not JUST a problem with capitalism. Capitalism merely extends the problem by modern production techniques and by seperating the worker from the owner. The problem exists (or did exist) in some feudal societies too, just in a different form.

And yes, some of these problems will outlive Capitalism too, and to an extent they are more like an issue like depression where it's not something you "cure" / end as such, more like something you try to minimise via social arrangements. I would say that as we'd move towards a communist society you'd have less and less office type jobs, in the admin/paper-work sense of it. People still might choose to work in offices to write or whatever.

[dda]

I like my job. What I hate is getting up and getting ready for work.

A recent survey in the US found that 72% (if I remember correctly) describe themselves as liking their jobs. However, only around 30-something % said that they liked their bosses.

When I read this thread, I kept in mind that the average intelligence and educational level of this group was higher than average which means that there are greater opportunities to chose than the average guy. At the same time, I think that the average person on GD is more critical/analytical than average as well which could lead to greater discontent.

Five years from now, I shall be retired. My retirement pay will be 100% of my current salary. I will get Social Security benefits on top of that. I will be better off financially than I am now. I won't have to get up in the morning to go to work. I suspect that when this occurs, I will, at least for awhile, miss having a job.

Many people complain about their jobs for their entire working lives but then when they retire they complain about having nothing to do and would actually opt to go back to the job they thought they hated. An interesting phenomena. Does that mean that a lot of people like their jobs better than they believed or just that most people are happiest when they are complaining?

[Yahwe]

some people have an inate need to work.

such people frequently die swiftly after retirement

we call such people 'staff' regardless of how high their previous job was, they have 'staff mentality'. such people would be far happier without a compulsary retirement age, but they never admit it

[acropolis]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

I'd say an artist or someone who programs a project from start to finish has probably less chance of being alienated from the fruits of his or her labour than someone who works in a manual labour production line for instance.

speaking of which, and completely off topic,

i don't remember large amounts of great art and/or literature popping out of the communist world in the 20th century. maybe i'm just sheltered. from the way i was taught the commies worked, the system didn't seem to lend itself to producing great works in either category ("you in the front, shoes. Make 7 million shoes. You in the back corner. Art. Make 6,000 arts. You in the..."), but I'm sure I got a biased education.

How would art work?

[dda]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

I would say that as we'd move towards a communist society you'd have less and less office type jobs, in the admin/paper-work sense of it. People still might choose to work in offices to write or whatever.

No matter what kind of society you have, the shit jobs will remain. When you have a communist society, you will need a communist government. Communist governments have to control so many aspects of society to make sure that everything is communist that the bureaacracy becomes much larger. When you look a pictures of Russian masses or of Chineese masses they don't seem happier or more satisfied than the masses anywhere else.

[Belgarath The Sorcerer]

I dislike both of my current jobs, one immensley more than the other. My previoius job (where I worked full time) was ok, but ultimately became boring, and because there was no way that I was going to move up the payscale I quit to go to uni. I've now got one year left (maybe another if i do a pgce).

Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue

Richie Edwards from the Manic Street Preachers did some rant about how modern life had even reduced the occupation of rock star to a daily drudgery

Do you think that is why he threw himself off a cliff?

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by acropolis

i don't remember large amounts of great art and/or literature popping out of the communist world in the 20th century.

There has never been a communist country. If you're talking about Russia, China, etc then there was a fair amount of "art" produced (although I'm not sure how you'd measure objectively whether art was "great" or not). But these were not, and never were communist countries. And I don't even mean in a "America isn't a 100% capitalist countries, so you can't call it capitalist" sense either. I mean Russia and China weren't even 1% communist, weren't going towards communism, had nothing to do with communism or anything like that.

The fact they proclaimed themselves as Communist (or People's Democracies for that matter) is completely irrelevent.

How would art work?

I'm not really sure what you mean by here. How does art work anyway? Individuals, for a variety of reasons decide to undertake artistic projects. The more people have free time (or the amount of free time individuals have, on average) then people can engage in such pursuits. In a society where everyone has to work 99% of their waking hours, you will get less artistic production (I would imagine).

Other issues revole around personal & artistic freedom. A society where people can freely sample from/experience other cultures (and their own for that matter) will tend to produce more art than one where censors dominate and outside influences are frowned upon. Therefore, one of the chief goals to any just society is the abolition of any controls over culture (including censorship and copyright).

But I am not really concerned at the total great artistic output of a given society. That's not a measure I'm interested in. If it was "proved" somehow that "great" art was more likely to be produced in less free or less just societies then that wouldn't stop me for an instant wishing for more freedom and more justice.

Originally Posted by dda

No matter what kind of society you have, the shit jobs will remain. When you have a communist society, you will need a communist government.

Since I'm defining communist society as one without a government (in the sense you are referring) this doesn't really apply.

[dda]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

Since I'm defining communist society as one without a government (in the sense you are referring) this doesn't really apply.

In what sense are you defining a communist society? What would government look like or non-government look like in a communist society? I'm intrigued.

[acropolis]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

ussr and china are/were 0% commie.

do you have the longer explanation on your blog or somesuch you could link to? cuz this seems like a key point to me.

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

I'm not really sure what you mean by here. How does art work anyway? Individuals, for a variety of reasons decide to undertake artistic projects. The more people have free time (or the amount of free time individuals have, on average) then people can engage in such pursuits. In a society where everyone has to work 99% of their waking hours, you will get less artistic production (I would imagine).

i approve of people working less as a goal.

however. i don't see great art or literature coming from hobbyists. writing, of a decent nature, takes work. at present, and for the last half a millenia, people have written, others have liked it, and offered to pay them to produce more of it. same with art. obviously that's not a system that would operate the same without money.

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

Other issues revole around personal & artistic freedom. A society where people can freely sample from/experience other cultures (and their own for that matter) will tend to produce more art than one where censors dominate and outside influences are frowned upon. Therefore, one of the chief goals to any just society is the abolition of any controls over culture (including censorship and copyright).

But I am not really concerned at the total great artistic output of a given society. That's not a measure I'm interested in. If it was "proved" somehow that "great" art was more likely to be produced in less free or less just societies then that wouldn't stop me for an instant wishing for more freedom and more justice.

I agree that freedom is 'the bigger deal.'

On the other hand, if someone told me that their society was better and freer and more just than mine but unfortunately didn't have art or literature,

I would feel 100% confident that that society had crappy art and lit but completely unconfident about the freedom and justice.

[Dante Hicks]

Unfortunately I don't have time to tackle these questions right now (I'm off), but for dda I'd recommend reading a couple of the older related threads :

http://pirate.planetarion.com/showth...icks+communism
http://pirate.planetarion.com/showth...icks+communism
http://pirate.planetarion.com/showth...icks+communism

I'll try to post something most satisfactory a bit later, perhaps elsewhere as this is way off-topic for Nod's thread and I actually like this topic.

[lokken]

The only reason to hate work is if it becomes on overbearing on life. If it isn't then it's a useful distraction.

[midge5]

I like my job. Admittedly I have only ever done it as a summer job but I have generally enjoyed it enough to go back a few summers running even though I don't need the money. While I am only able to do the most basic things at the moment until I either work full time or become a chartered accountant there are plenty of different things to do and I find most of them quite interesting.

Like Dante said earlier though, I have found it quite tiring. I will get home after 10 hours in work and be really knackered. Ifit wasn't for the fact it would keep me up all night so I would be even worse during the enxt day I would probably go to bed as soon as I walked through the door.

As much as I enjoy university I am quite looking forward to starting work. I find the endless free hours throughout the day and the ridiculously long holidays slightly boring. There just isn't enough to do, or at least not with the amount of money my friends and I have.

[Black Dog]

I hate all the work I have done. Admittedly since university I have been in temping jobs where I am forced to listen to jobsworth morons describing in detail how to enter data into computer systems. This is completely my fault for not knowing what I want to do with my life.

I also had two months as a policy lawyer in the Serious Fraud Office. But mindless repetitive tasks are far more interesting than being forced to sit at a desk and read countless case files before analysing them. I ended up watching the clock and reading the bbc news website wishing for each day to be over.

I would love to find work that I enjoy but given that is unlikely, work is a largely social activity. School was great fun because you were surrounded by friends for 7 hours of the day. Work could be exactly the same. Until then I'll continue to spend 8 hours listening to xfm whilst refreshing football365 every 10 minutes.

[dda]

Originally Posted by Black Dog

I hate all the work I have done. Admittedly since university I have been in temping jobs where I am forced to listen to jobsworth morons describing in detail how to enter data into computer systems. This is completely my fault for not knowing what I want to do with my life.

I also had two months as a policy lawyer in the Serious Fraud Office. But mindless repetitive tasks are far more interesting than being forced to sit at a desk and read countless case files before analysing them. I ended up watching the clock and reading the bbc news website wishing for each day to be over.

I would love to find work that I enjoy but given that is unlikely, work is a largely social activity. School was great fun because you were surrounded by friends for 7 hours of the day. Work could be exactly the same. Until then I'll continue to spend 8 hours listening to xfm whilst refreshing football365 every 10 minutes.

Keep up the positive attitude.