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Unread 26 Feb 2018, 08:14   #1
Ave
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Fixes

Occupy whole 7 weeks: Base income from cores are still too high. It will decrease attacking early on and add idle. Means most action start after tick 300. Also roiding alliances down to no roids, will still keep them coming to you with their base income. Hard to kill someones value dramatically. Also hitting the ones with roids would count more. Ofc some base income is good too, to keep everyone in the game a bit, but imo currently its too high versus income from roids. And the most important part is, that pure support def planets, would have less value, as they wouldn't have the "huge" base income. They would need actual roids to grow and you could farm them in return if they just cover others.

Target rotation: Ptargeting alliance should always require a war declaration, would be nice if it had a cool down too. So it would force you hit elsewhere for a while, or hit lighter gal raids.

This way we avoid a bit of naptarion games and round lenght wars. Also every alliance would receive more even amount of incoming.

This would put wars and warring more visible for all and move otherwise attacking more based on gal raids. Which gives incoming more divided.

Troll tags: What this game really needs the most, is for all alliances to try to get better and achieve better ranks. Now there are tags living with their base income who expect no incs, cause they are small or make no other effort. Such tags can easily cause harm to you with pure offensive build and nothing to lose back in return.

We should give higher bonus from war declaration, if u are hitting within your range, meaning u try to climb up ranks.

Also the target rotation and gal based roiding means the smaller tags get their share too. There should be no real gains in not trying a bit.

Limit pre-launch to 1-2 ticks:
Why do we still want to force people to lose sleep? Keep AF to help tactics to deside over pure activity/dedication. Not everyone has USA based citizens to dc for u. Actually very few tags do.

I might edit this and continue this, but shall post it as it is for now.
So to be continued.
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Last edited by Ave; 26 Feb 2018 at 10:44.
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Unread 26 Feb 2018, 09:54   #2
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Re: Fixes

Action has never taken place before tick 300. That said, I wouldn't mind a slight decrease in core mining, because your point is otherwise valid.

Anything that lowers the ceiling on how many incomings an aliance can receive in a given amount of time helps 'good' alliances long before it starts helping 'bad' alliances: EXilition can deal with 120 incs, but F-Crew can't. Since 'good' alliances don't need the help, I think it's a terrible idea. I realize you're not advocating for a hard ceiling on number of incs, but any feature that brings down the number of incs has the same defect.

There's nothing wrong with troll tags. If you're attacker, arrange defense or accept roid loss. It doesn't matter who attacks you. Just because you like playing for value for 60 rounds in a row doesn't mean everyone has to.

Limiting prelaunching from 12 to 2 ticks doesn't help. Most people prelaunch only a few ticks in advance anyway, so a minor reduction like that doesn't change the fact that attackers can enjoy uninterrupted sleep 2 more hours than (non-AF) defenders can. I think there's something to be said for removing prelaunching (for attacks only!), but there are downsides, and I'm realistic enough to realize it'll never happen. A compromise I literally just thought of: maybe you should only be allowed to prelaunch your first fleet slot? That would mirror the single alliance fleet you are allowed to have active at any one time.

Meta: putting a bunch of ideas in a single thread is a bad idea. People will converge on the most controversial one and the resulting cripple fig--uh, rational discussion will drown out the consensus that may exist on another. Threads are free. Make a separate one for each.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.

Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 26 Feb 2018 at 10:00.
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Unread 26 Feb 2018, 10:28   #3
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Re: Fixes

That would cause a lot of unnecessary spam to the forums. Some of the suggestions are related in a way or another anyway.

I have played one single value round when I wasn't scanning Main point was to add competition between alliances on same range to climb ranks. No one has interest to fight a troll tag, there is nothing to gain back. One sided trolling is just bad for the game.

I think many people pre-launch more than 1-2 ticks and yes I was talking about offence. Your idea doesn't sound so terrible about limiting it to some specific one fleet.
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Unread 26 Feb 2018, 13:43   #4
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Re: Fixes

I think the research time on HCT is too long. Im not sure wether it serves a purpose nowdays either.
Maybe removing it entirely could help the issue with having idle stages each round.
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Unread 26 Feb 2018, 14:13   #5
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Re: Fixes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ave View Post
That would cause a lot of unnecessary spam to the forums.
It really wouldn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
I think the research time on HCT is too long. Im not sure wether it serves a purpose nowdays either.
Maybe removing it entirely could help the issue with having idle stages each round.
I don't know the original goal of HCT research, but here's some of its effects
  • Planets with lots of roids have less opportunity to do value-producing research like core mining and (indirectly) population management, reducing the gap in value between larger and smaller planets.
  • They have less opportunity to spend time researching scans, which fosters cooperation by encouraging other players to go for scans.
  • They're prevented from reaching incoming scans earlier, making them easier to fake for a while.
  • In extreme cases, they even have to prioritize HCT over TT reduces their landing rate. Generally, though, the real bottleneck (1000/1250/1500) occurs after TT has already been completed.

All in all, I think it's a fairly elegant system that helps smaller planets and makes the game harder and (somewhat) more complicated for bigger ones.

I don't believe removing it (or making it much faster, to the point of becoming trivial) will solve the problem that the early round is boring. Alliances don't start wars to gain more roids than they would if they were galraiding. They start wars because they want to take those roids from a specific alliance. At tick 200, there generally isn't anyone threatening to run away with the round yet, despite what AD might have us believe.

Maybe we could instead vary the war cap rate bonus over time? Higher at the start of the round, to encourage activity, then slowly decaying to its current amount near the end?
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.

Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 26 Feb 2018 at 14:29.
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Unread 26 Feb 2018, 20:40   #6
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Re: Fixes

Back to the cores, when core alliances have little to steal from.

You always gain more ptargeting. The problem is making enemies that way.
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Unread 26 Feb 2018, 21:45   #7
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Re: Fixes

Reducing Cores bonus sounds good. Too easy to play idle/def planet and still accumulate decent value.

Quote:
Action has never taken place before tick 300
The first couple hundred ticks of inactivity is such a bore. I would support removing the 24h protection for all planets at start of round. This feature seems to be most useful for protecting late joining planets. The effect would be more "rush" style builds (TT+Hulls) rather than Cores. I'm inexperieced, so maybe this has been done before...
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Unread 26 Feb 2018, 21:51   #8
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Re: Fixes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ave View Post
I think many people pre-launch more than 1-2 ticks and yes I was talking about offence. Your idea doesn't sound so terrible about limiting it to some specific one fleet.
http://pirate.planetarion.com/showpo...8&postcount=16
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Unread 26 Feb 2018, 23:50   #9
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Re: Fixes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
I don't know the original goal of HCT research, but here's some of its effects
  • Planets with lots of roids have less opportunity to do value-producing research like core mining and (indirectly) population management, reducing the gap in value between larger and smaller planets.
  • They have less opportunity to spend time researching scans, which fosters cooperation by encouraging other players to go for scans.
  • They're prevented from reaching incoming scans earlier, making them easier to fake for a while.
  • In extreme cases, they even have to prioritize HCT over TT reduces their landing rate. Generally, though, the real bottleneck (1000/1250/1500) occurs after TT has already been completed.

All in all, I think it's a fairly elegant system that helps smaller planets and makes the game harder and (somewhat) more complicated for bigger ones.

I don't believe removing it (or making it much faster, to the point of becoming trivial) will solve the problem that the early round is boring. Alliances don't start wars to gain more roids than they would if they were galraiding. They start wars because they want to take those roids from a specific alliance. At tick 200, there generally isn't anyone threatening to run away with the round yet, despite what AD might have us believe.

As long as most tags(If not all tags except KittenZ) prefer doing the core-route over ship/TT rushing it might point towards the ship rush/early attack route is too weak.
If you look at most guides from 5-10 years back, a lot of them are focused away from cores iirc?

Maybe splitting HCT up into smaller parts, ie each part 1200RP for 100 more mineable roids could be a good idea.
To be able to "run away with the round" early on you need to have sufficient HCT to make constant attacking plausible. Often you have to idle your fleet simply because you are too far behind on HCT.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Maybe we could instead vary the war cap rate bonus over time? Higher at the start of the round, to encourage activity, then slowly decaying to its current amount near the end?
Ive suggested earlier that the war bonus should be based on how much roid the tag got compared to the universe average.
If tag A got 2x the amount of roids of everyone else having the war bonus decaying could lead to an earlier stagnation.
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Unread 27 Feb 2018, 13:38   #10
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Re: Fixes

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
As long as most tags(If not all tags except KittenZ) prefer doing the core-route over ship/TT rushing it might point towards the ship rush/early attack route is too weak.
If you look at most guides from 5-10 years back, a lot of them are focused away from cores iirc?
Yes, the core-first route started being popular after it got a major buff, first in r40, and then again in r44. Before that, basically only scanners and idlers built them. People who already had inc scans who didn't need to spend time on HCT, in other words. Maybe XP whores too, in the few rounds that was viable? I don't think we should go back to the bad old days of literally everyone going FCs and HCT, but the current situation is not ideal either. As said, a small nerf seems reasonable to me. 10%? 20%? Something along those lines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Maybe splitting HCT up into smaller parts, ie each part 1200RP for 100 more mineable roids could be a good idea.
I have no real objection, but what are you trying to achieve with this change?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
To be able to "run away with the round" early on you need to have sufficient HCT to make constant attacking plausible. Often you have to idle your fleet simply because you are too far behind on HCT.
If you hit your HCT limit, you're punished for making a bad decision (ie, researching TT or Siege instead). It happens more often to planets with lots of roids, of course, because they run into those HCT limits more often, but that just means people who perform well need to plan better. Not only do I not have a problem with this, I think it's a great effect of the current HCT system, perhaps the great effect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Ive suggested earlier that the war bonus should be based on how much roid the tag got compared to the universe average.
If tag A got 2x the amount of roids of everyone else having the war bonus decaying could lead to an earlier stagnation.
I don't think this solves the problem we started with (the first 300 ticks of the round are boring), and has very negative other effects (gangbangs will become even more common because everyone just wants to war the tag with the most roids).
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 28 Feb 2018, 05:38   #11
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Re: Fixes

I think butcher is behind an idea that the first hct's could be lighter researches, so u wont max out right in the beginning, if u go to the roid all route.

It is not about planning flaws, the game does not support active roiding in the beginning.
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Unread 28 Feb 2018, 05:43   #12
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Re: Fixes

would changing it to a percentage of roids mined be a better solution? as you would still be able to keep roiding like a bawwwss and mine the roids you're caputring
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Unread 28 Feb 2018, 11:08   #13
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Re: Fixes

I'm not sure I understand what you're suggesting, Blue_esper.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 28 Feb 2018, 12:01   #14
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Re: Fixes

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
I'm not sure I understand what you're suggesting, Blue_esper.
well, instead of being capped at certain points ie 300/500/750/1000

the research starts off as being able to mine 20% so if you have 500 roids you'd mine 100. then each research would allow a higher percentage to be mined.
Could even have final research that allowed over 100% (Double Dipping)
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Unread 28 Feb 2018, 14:18   #15
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Re: Fixes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
I have no real objection, but what are you trying to achieve with this change?

If you hit your HCT limit, you're punished for making a bad decision (ie, researching TT or Siege instead). It happens more often to planets with lots of roids, of course, because they run into those HCT limits more often, but that just means people who perform well need to plan better. Not only do I not have a problem with this, I think it's a great effect of the current HCT system, perhaps the great effect.
I think it would be more viable to do some "hybrid" strats if the investment was less costly in term of research time with the HCT.
If you can make ready the next HCT in a short time after landing roids, you wouldnt have to invest as much as if you had to do 48 hours of research to get to the next roidcount stage.

Personaly in the alliances ive been running part of the reason behind doing the slowest-route-possibole was because we simply did not have time running a alliance for 50 days.
Planetarion is more of a "sprint" these days rather than a "marathon", as ive pointed out in earlier threads the total incomming tags recieve might be as high as earlier rounds, but the peaks are higher and rarer.
Either you get 200 incs, or you get 10 incs, wich means no tag can hold onto roids anymore.
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Unread 28 Feb 2018, 16:15   #16
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Re: Fixes

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
I think it would be more viable to do some "hybrid" strats if the investment was less costly in term of research time with the HCT.
If you can make ready the next HCT in a short time after landing roids, you wouldnt have to invest as much as if you had to do 48 hours of research to get to the next roidcount stage.
I rather like it that people have to look a bit further into the future than the 6-8 ticks it'd take to do a 1200 RP research. Your suggestion changes the whole system from something that requires actual thought and planning to "do HCT for a few ticks whenever you're ETA 4 on more roids than you can mine".


Honestly, I don't think there much reason to change the HCT system. It's interesting, rewards foresight, provides an organic way for players to do better, makes the game more complex for high ranked planets, and even offers a chance of a laugh when someone in your galaxy or alliance ****s up. None of the suggestions I've seen so far even come close.
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Unread 28 Feb 2018, 16:54   #17
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Re: Fixes

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
I rather like it that people have to look a bit further into the future than the 6-8 ticks it'd take to do a 1200 RP research. Your suggestion changes the whole system from something that requires actual thought and planning to "do HCT for a few ticks whenever you're ETA 4 on more roids than you can mine".


Honestly, I don't think there much reason to change the HCT system. It's interesting, rewards foresight, provides an organic way for players to do better, makes the game more complex for high ranked planets, and even offers a chance of a laugh when someone in your galaxy or alliance ****s up. None of the suggestions I've seen so far even come close.
Well the argument is initialy that the changes that has been made the last few years has moved the game towards a less complex or flexible meta.

The changes to goverments/anarchy mightve pushed the meta even further to the core rush strategy being the only viable one.
Earlier you would see a lot of xan corp planets actualy popping bonuses early for RP bonus to keep up with the slow research time to get HCT/Timetravel research done.
If you were to core rush back then it would take like 500 ticks before you had TT4 and hull2 done, so it kinda made the core rush strategy less viable.


If it was less research time needed to mine 400 roids, with the new changes to initiating cost, it could force alliances to go out attacking earlier to keep up with the hull/TT rushers
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Unread 28 Feb 2018, 17:10   #18
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Re: Fixes

Personally the only thing i would say that could make hct more fluid would be to remove the 200 roids research, so 100 > 300 and increase cost of hct "2" to around 2k (ish) rp to compensate.
Or scrape 300 and go 100 > 250 > 500 > 750 increase 200 to 1.6k rp cost
just seems a bit redundant to go 100 > 200 > 300 > 500
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Unread 28 Feb 2018, 17:50   #19
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Re: Fixes

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Meta: putting a bunch of ideas in a single thread is a bad idea. People will converge on the most controversial one and the resulting cripple fig--uh, rational discussion will drown out the consensus that may exist on another. Threads are free. Make a separate one for each.
I think this bears repeating at this point
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Unread 28 Feb 2018, 20:38   #20
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Re: Fixes

You beat me to it, I was going to post something along those same lines before I opened the thread. It's actually even worse than I originally predicted: not only have we converged on the most controversial idea of the thread, that idea wasn't even in the original post.
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Unread 12 Mar 2018, 22:35   #21
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Re: Fixes

xx: I think outside alliance def should be weakened
Avenger: u just made a brilliant idea
:smiley:
xx: 80% strength if def fleet isn't in same alliance
xx: You can wave it away saying they're not as coordinated with you as it's another alliance
Avenger: there will be counter complaints from ingal supporters
xx: The -1 ETA only helps kill outgal def, and is circumnavigated by scans
I counter with in gal def already gets a huge tick reduction.
The game is alliance vs alliance not gal vs gal
Avenger: true
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Last edited by Ave; 12 Mar 2018 at 22:41.
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