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Unread 28 May 2006, 20:28   #1
JonnyBGood
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Generic BBC News Article Link

O look there it is.

A number of things annoyed me about this article.

Firstly
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pope Benedict XVI
"In a place like this, words fail. In the end, there can only be a dread silence - a silence which is itself a heartfelt cry to God: Why, Lord, did you remain silent? How could you tolerate all this?" he said in a speech in Italian.
Why did God remain silent? What about your jackass predecessor who remained silent? No comment there eh? Go back to Germania.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Some Jews
Before Pope Benedict's visit, some Jewish groups had said a German Pope speaking the language of the Nazis would insult the memory of the million Jews murdered there.
What? Because the only reason the Nazis killed people was because they spoke german? Yeah I can see how that works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pope Benedick again
He later told hundreds of thousands of young people who had gathered to see him in Krakow to remain true to the teachings of Jesus, and to avoid being influenced by modern secular values.
Modern secular values like not bothering to speak out when millions of people of another faith are being killed or joining the Hitler Youth am i rite?


Edit: So this thread has slightly more of a point I'm going to express total disgust towards both the catholic church and those appalling Jewish interest groups which accuse almost everything even vaguely diminuitive of the Holocaust or denigrating towards Israel of being anti-semitic. The church says it disagrees with modern secular values. What values does it mean? A modern secular value is being opposed to murder, is the church against that? I'd rather hope not. Does it mean only "values" which have emerged recently? Like contraception? Frankly the church's views on contraception are so appalling they should be kicked in the face every time someone expresses a belief in them. On specific Jewish interest groups (I dislike the way I'm phrasing this but i rather lack something a bit better) you have people abusing the memory of the deaths of millions through exploitative emotive gibberish and quite frequently using it to diminish opposition to the deaths of many more. It's disgusting at best.
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Last edited by JonnyBGood; 28 May 2006 at 20:40.
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Unread 28 May 2006, 20:51   #2
The_Tyrant
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Re: Generic BBC News Article Link

A fair bit of the quotes sounded like he was positioning himself (or his popelyness) as god, maybe I'm just reading too much/not enough into it.

To be honest I've never heard the guy speak in German or otherwise but maybe he's got a really loud voice and sounds a little like Hitler, you could see how some guy barking prayers in German might startle any Jew's present.
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Unread 28 May 2006, 22:01   #3
Nodrog
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Re: Generic BBC News Article Link

On somethingawful (and elsewhere I assume, but I'm running with this), there are often debates about various aspects of religion. Some of these debates are quite technical and focus on minute details that often require reference to primary sources ("does the Koran condemn slavery?"/"What is the catholic view on purgatory?" and so on). Now, several atheist posters have a very bad repuation and are widely disliked, because they have a habit of coming into these threads and essentially saying "Yes, but its all nonsense really isnt it? I mean the Bible just isnt true - these people are simply wrong". I've never understood why this provokes such negative reactions - even other atheists often condemn this as trolling. There seems to be a general feeling that we should suspend our attitude towards Christianity as a whole while discussing specific details of the religion - like we should treat questions concerning religious doctrines as being completely independent, rather than something which should be evaluated within the context of the religion as a whole. And I think this is a mistake.

Any debate about the actions or beliefs of religious people needs to take into account the fact that they are ultimately based on fairy stories rather than anything rational - that these people are quite happy to accept 'what was written in some book' as being the truth despite its contradiction with everything we know about the world, and that their epistemological outlooks are fundamentally bankrupt. With this in mind, it isnt particularly suprising that their thought processes on related subjects are going to be irrational - anything else would be astounding. The pope is going to say a lot of things which make no sense, because he essentially believes in elves and goblins, and that he is God's chosen representative on earth. If it werent for the historical precedent, he could easily be diagnosed as mentally ill. Simliarly, Orthodox jews are going to continue making ridiculous claims about things related to tbeir race, beacuse they truly believe in their heart of hearts that they are God's chosen people. And how can you argue with that? None of it makes any real sense, and nor should you expect it to. You cant just take what people say at face value, as if the speech of religious people were a serious and honest contribution to rational discourse, because this is ultimately doomed to failure and you'll just end up frustrated.

Last edited by Nodrog; 28 May 2006 at 22:11.
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Unread 28 May 2006, 22:03   #4
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Re: Generic BBC News Article Link

How many jews is Jesus worth?
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Unread 28 May 2006, 22:06   #5
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Re: Generic BBC News Article Link

Maybe rather than suspend your attitude project it onto the person in question, maybe the pope knows he's really spouting rubish but wants to keep things how he likes them.

Maybe he's a shapeshifting lizard.
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Unread 28 May 2006, 22:19   #6
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Re: Generic BBC News Article Link

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Christian values arent meant to be subject to rational debate or discussion.

If you're taking the rather narrow viewpoint of only discussing the legitimacy of religious doctorine as a narrative on creation i agree with you, but the point about debating religious observance is to get an insight into a particular group of people. In a diverse and rather interesting world its idiotic to say 'theres no point in discussing this, its all bollocks, why are you discussing this?'

Even taking your point of it being made up, we discuss and debate about other literary or philosophical ideas even if they're made up or bullshit. I might not believe in LOTR as 'truth' but i might like to discuss it without someone constantly saying 'but it isn't real' or talk about communism with dante and t&f without just saying 'its all bollocks why even bother'.

Theres a certain nihilism in saying something shouldn't be discussed particularly if that something plays a large part in the world around us, and going into a thread where people are discussing it and saying 'its all bullshit don't bother' is trolling.
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Unread 28 May 2006, 22:33   #7
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Re: Generic BBC News Article Link

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
If you're taking the rather narrow viewpoint of only discussing the legitimacy of religious doctorine as a narrative on creation i agree with you, but the point about debating religious observance is to get an insight into a particular group of people. In a diverse and rather interesting world its idiotic to say 'theres no point in discussing this, its all bollocks, why are you discussing this?'

Even taking your point of it being made up, we discuss and debate about other literary or philosophical ideas even if they're made up or bullshit. I might not believe in LOTR as 'truth' but i might like to discuss it without someone constantly saying 'but it isn't real' or talk about communism with dante and t&f without just saying 'its all bollocks why even bother'.

Theres a certain nihilism in saying something shouldn't be discussed particularly if that something plays a large part in the world around us, and going into a thread where people are discussing it and saying 'its all bullshit don't bother' is trolling.
I didnt say that they shouldnt be discussed - quite the opposite. I said that they shouldnt be treated as genuine questions capable of being answered in a rational manner. Religion itself can be treated as an object and studied from various perspectives (sociological, psychological etc), and there are many interesting theories about why people believe the things they do. But this is very different from treating the individual questions as something which can be answered seriously - "How can free-will be reconciled with God's omnipotence?" isnt a question like "How can quantum field theory be reconciled with general relativity?".

It's like if you were on the bus and met someone who had escaped from an asylum, and he started telling you that the driver was really an octapus who was cunningly disguising his tentacles so noone noticed. From a psychological point of view this may be fascinating - you might be tempted to probe in order to try and understand whats going on inside his head. But if you were to ask him "how can the octapus hide 6 tentacles inside such a tight shirt without creating any noticable bulges?", you wouldnt be asking this because you think its a serious question which deserves a rational answer - the driver obviously isnt an octopus, so the question is arbitrary and has no real meaning. Similarly there are situations in which you might want to ask a Catholic "how can that liquid be both blood and wine at the same time?", but the reasons for asking will ultimately be morbid curiosity (or pointscoring) rather than because its a genuine question.

Studying the religions of the past are another example - there are lots of fascinatng questions that can be asked about Greek religion from both socio-historical, and psychological perspectives. But you wouldnt ask a question like "but was mount Olympus really big enough for a whole tribe of gods to live on?" and expect a proper answer.

Its difficult to put the distinction into words, but theres a big difference between asking an 'internal' question where you accept the basic framework and are trying to find a proper answer ("why does God want people to wear condoms?"), and asking an 'external' question where you are treating the framework as an object and studying it from outside ("why do Christians believe that God wants people to wear condoms?"). In the specific case of the Pope above, asking "why does he believe God hates secular values?" is the wrong place to start - it would be more productive to ask "Why does this person believe he is God's chosen representative on earth?". Its not particularly surprising that someone who believes the latter can also believe the former.

Last edited by Nodrog; 28 May 2006 at 22:44.
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Unread 28 May 2006, 22:37   #8
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Re: Generic BBC News Article Link

Those aren't necessarily questions concerning reality more than psychological perspectives that I asked though nod. What facet of catholicism prevented the pope from speaking out would be an example. Demolishing the entire structure, as mentally stimulating as it is, will rarely apply properly to real world problems as people will just automatically assume "oh it's just another atheist".
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Unread 28 May 2006, 22:41   #9
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Re: Generic BBC News Article Link

apologies this

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
On somethingawful (and elsewhere I assume, but I'm running with this), there are often debates about various aspects of religion. Some of these debates are quite technical and focus on minute details that often require reference to primary sources ("does the Koran condemn slavery?"/"What is the catholic view on purgatory?" and so on). Now, several atheist posters have a very bad repuation and are widely disliked, because they have a habit of coming into these threads and essentially saying "Yes, but its all nonsense really isnt it? I mean the Bible just isnt true - these people are simply wrong"

made it sound like you were discussing what the practices of a particular religion were (for sociological purposes) and had athiest trolls rather than discussing the actual merits of those practices as a method of explaining the universe.

But yes transubstantiation is nuts, personally i find it pointless to try to get them to explain that on a scientific level, saying 'isn't eating the body of christ cannibalism?' offers more avenues of interesting discussion without having to resort to science.
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Unread 28 May 2006, 22:46   #10
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Re: Generic BBC News Article Link

incidently johnny is ireland any closer to allowing women to take a tablet to terminate a pinsized nonentity or do you still kick them in the stomach in a backalley? how do media act in these kinds of debates over there? are there any pro abortion commentators?
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Unread 28 May 2006, 22:52   #11
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Re: Generic BBC News Article Link

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Those aren't necessarily questions concerning reality more than psychological perspectives that I asked though nod. What facet of catholicism prevented the pope from speaking out would be an example. Demolishing the entire structure, as mentally stimulating as it is, will rarely apply properly to real world problems as people will just automatically assume "oh it's just another atheist".
But youre still basing your question on the assumption that the Pope is going to act rationally or have intelligent motivations for his actions, which is in stark contradiction to the whole "God's chosen puppet" thing. I suppose in a sense its like asking why Hitler hated Jews (no, I'm not comparing the Pope to Hitler). If you look hard enough then I'm sure you'll find some incidents in Hitler's childhood that affected him, and perhaps you can locate his views within a general tradition of German anti-semitism, and so on. But eventually youre going to reach a point where you have to stop and say "Well, he was just nuts". People dont always have sensible motivations for their beliefs and actions.
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Unread 29 May 2006, 00:03   #12
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Re: Generic BBC News Article Link

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
But youre still basing your question on the assumption that the Pope is going to act rationally or have intelligent motivations for his actions, which is in stark contradiction to the whole "God's chosen puppet" thing. I suppose in a sense its like asking why Hitler hated Jews (no, I'm not comparing the Pope to Hitler). If you look hard enough then I'm sure you'll find some incidents in Hitler's childhood that affected him, and perhaps you can locate his views within a general tradition of German anti-semitism, and so on. But eventually youre going to reach a point where you have to stop and say "Well, he was just nuts". People dont always have sensible motivations for their beliefs and actions.
my interpretation of jonny's post was that any conclusion of any debate which begins with atheistic assumptions will be ignored by everyone on the planet who matters.

which is in stark constrast to conclusions from debates on internet forums without such assumptions (which as everyone knows form the basis for the global policies of all industrialized nations).
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Unread 29 May 2006, 00:19   #13
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Re: Generic BBC News Article Link

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
But youre still basing your question on the assumption that the Pope is going to act rationally or have intelligent motivations for his actions, which is in stark contradiction to the whole "God's chosen puppet" thing. I suppose in a sense its like asking why Hitler hated Jews (no, I'm not comparing the Pope to Hitler). If you look hard enough then I'm sure you'll find some incidents in Hitler's childhood that affected him, and perhaps you can locate his views within a general tradition of German anti-semitism, and so on. But eventually youre going to reach a point where you have to stop and say "Well, he was just nuts". People dont always have sensible motivations for their beliefs and actions.
I'm not saying the Pope then, I forget which, had to have a sensible motivation. I'm saying he didn't. However we all know that what he did was wrong. So my question concerns how can someone who's the leader of the catholic world not speak out against something so wrong? And what meant that he didn't speak out? You're pointing out to catholics that here is something wrong with your system. Practical deconstruction happens in pieces dude!
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