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16 Nov 2005, 20:02
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#1
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Vermin Supreme
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,280
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I Question Your Patriotism
So I'm not going to name any names or anything. It gets old. But after this past Veteran's Day, when it was rediscovered that everyone who doesn't approve of 'X' is clearly unpatriotic, and likely hates his or her own country, I'm curious.
Have 'good guys' ever used the "you are unpatriotic" routine? All the classic examples I can think of are either like Joe McCarthy or the axis during world war II or many people during the vietnam war. In world war II, we certainly were all patriotism crazy, but in terms of saying 'quit being unpatriotic' the only examples i can think might be are people telling that to people complaining about internment camps. Which goes back to my original point.
Could the phrase 'you are being unpatriotic' be universally translated as 'I am fighting to make the world a worse place'?
I'm trying to find a coutnerexample. To my knowledge, when the south said 'we don't want to be part of the USA anymore,' Lincoln never said that was unpatriotic.
But I could be wrong. Hence the question.
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16 Nov 2005, 20:10
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#2
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First Disciple of Aldur
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: The Vale of Aldur
Posts: 1,470
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Re: I Question Your Patriotism
Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
Could the phrase 'you are being unpatriotic' be universally translated as 'I am fighting to make the world a worse place'?
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No, it's too broad a definition. I could be unpatriotic by saying I hate Bulldogs and Cricket (I don't).
Quote:
I'm trying to find a coutnerexample. To my knowledge, when the south said 'we don't want to be part of the USA anymore,' Lincoln never said that was unpatriotic.
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No, he said, "Civil War it is then lads"
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Yeah.
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16 Nov 2005, 20:12
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#3
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 8,476
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Re: I Question Your Patriotism
Quote:
Have 'good guys' ever used the "you are unpatriotic" routine?
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Yahwe seems to use it fairly often, although I dont think he would be classified as a 'good guy'.
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16 Nov 2005, 20:34
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#4
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Historian
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 960
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Re: I Question Your Patriotism
All the time.
Whenever a national mood sweeps the country, it is not all that uncommon for the minority to be called anti-(insert country). During the First World war, not volunteering was considered wildly unpatriotic in almost every allied nation.
Wonderfully, when people in Britain questioned allying themselves with Stalin during WWII due to his evil nature, they were called unpatriotic, yet 10 years later those who questioned the tart of the cold war were considered unpatriotic.
In 1964, not supporting the Vietnam conflict was considered unpatrotic. in 1972, opposing the withdrawl from Vietnam was considered unpatriotic.
It happens all the time, I really don't think it is fair to label any side or group as doing it exclusively.
__________________
"This is Rumour control, here are the facts..."
"Et nunc, reges, intelligite, er udimini, qui judicati terram"
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16 Nov 2005, 20:37
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#5
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I am.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
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Re: I Question Your Patriotism
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Yahwe seems to use it fairly often, although I dont think he would be classified as a 'good guy'.
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do i indeed?
well then you'll have do trouble quoting me.
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hi
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16 Nov 2005, 20:46
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#6
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Lord Denning
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: City of London
Posts: 2,548
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Re: I Question Your Patriotism
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vermillion
the tart of the cold war
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That's no way to speak about Maggie.
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Please bear in mind when reading the above post that I am always right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
He was crowned in York Cathedral as 'Expert in the West' by Pope Urban III in 1186.
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16 Nov 2005, 20:49
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#7
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Banned
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Further to the right
Posts: 19,441
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Re: I Question Your Patriotism
If silly appeals to nationalism are your only means of rational argument it becomes a pretty poor argument. I'm sure it has been used, the patriotism argument that is, in circumstances throughout history when there were other more sensible arguments. However for fairly obvious reasons we remember those arguments and only especially recall accusations of being unpatriotic when they're not supported by anything better.
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Some might ask what good is life without purpose but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
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16 Nov 2005, 21:10
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#8
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Vermin Supreme
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,280
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Re: I Question Your Patriotism
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vermillion
All the time.
Whenever a national mood sweeps the country, it is not all that uncommon for the minority to be called anti-(insert country). During the First World war, not volunteering was considered wildly unpatriotic in almost every allied nation.
Wonderfully, when people in Britain questioned allying themselves with Stalin during WWII due to his evil nature, they were called unpatriotic, yet 10 years later those who questioned the tart of the cold war were considered unpatriotic.
In 1964, not supporting the Vietnam conflict was considered unpatrotic. in 1972, opposing the withdrawl from Vietnam was considered unpatriotic.
It happens all the time, I really don't think it is fair to label any side or group as doing it exclusively.
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during the first world war, it seems to me the people who didn't want to show up were the smart ones. what a stupid war.
and the people who questioned allying with stalin had a good point too.
Your search - "tart of the cold war" - did not match any documents. but i'm guessing i agree with those who questioned it.
i also agree with with the people who were called unpatriotic in your 1964 example.
And could you provide some sort of link to the 'People Opposed To Running Away Clearly Are Unpatriotic' articles?
But in general, I wasn't saying that it was one of the 'traditional sides' or the other that did it, just whichever side happened to be wrong at a given time.
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16 Nov 2005, 21:41
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#9
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deserves a medal
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,211
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Re: I Question Your Patriotism
Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
Could the phrase 'you are being unpatriotic' be universally translated as 'I am fighting to make the world a worse place'?
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It could be translated as:
"Shut up and sit on my finger.."
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"I have with me two gods, Persuasion and Compulsion."
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16 Nov 2005, 22:10
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#10
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Ball
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,410
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Re: I Question Your Patriotism
Ayn Rand was good and she called people unamerican.
Also, James I to Guy Fawkes: "I queftion thy patriotifm".
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16 Nov 2005, 22:15
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#11
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Clerk
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 13,940
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Re: I Question Your Patriotism
I'm not sure of the wording they would have used but I suspect anyone who didn't help fight in wars of national liberation (Vietnam, China, etc) probably wouldn't have been termed unpatriotic. The Russians term WW2 the great patriotic war don't they?
Quote:
Originally Posted by queball
Ayn Rand was good
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No.
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16 Nov 2005, 22:16
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#12
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NEWSBOT
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: The enby cave!
Posts: 4,872
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Re: I Question Your Patriotism
I question Dante's patriotism!
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Pretty parks and funky scrap metal things here
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16 Nov 2005, 22:49
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#13
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BlueTuba
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 6,339
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Re: I Question Your Patriotism
The problem here is defining what is patriotic, and what is not.
Being anti or pro a war doesn't change your level of patriotism at all, as your opinion is what you think would be best overall, and therefore for your country.
However, being anti a war and wishing death on your own soldiers would be an example of being unpatriotic, as they are people fighting (rightly or wrongly) for your nation's cause.
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"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life."
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17 Nov 2005, 00:32
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#14
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so f*cking zen
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Hitting Bottom
Posts: 8,499
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Re: I Question Your Patriotism
Quote:
Originally Posted by queball
Ayn Rand was good
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bump into things / form incoherent sentences / get lost / drool much?!
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On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
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17 Nov 2005, 15:19
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#15
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Tiny Dancer
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Yellow Brick Road
Posts: 355
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Re: I Question Your Patriotism
In my opinion theres nothing to be gained from patriotism in any form. As someone said earlier, its just a silly appeal to nationalist sentiment.
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[16:09] <eJohn> im still standing
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18 Nov 2005, 01:16
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#16
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USS Oklahoma
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,500
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Re: I Question Your Patriotism
Patriotism is a why and not a what. You can have patriots on both sides of an issue and you can have unpatriotic individuals on both sides of a national issue.
If you are doing what you think is in the best interests of your country on a national issue, you are patriotic.
If you do what is in your personal best interest without regard for the best interests of your country, on a national issue, then you are unpatriotic.
Those in the US who wish to get out of Iraq because they feel that the US is in a morally indefensable position and should get out because they truely believe that the loss of additional lives in this venture are just as patriotic as anyone.
Those in the US who wish to get out of Iraq only because they feel that they will gain political power within the US by embarrassing the US government without regard to what this might or might not do to America are unpatriotic.
Similarly, those who feel that the best interests of the American people are best served by being in Iraq are patriots.
Those who wish to be in Iraq because it benefits them personally without any thought to what it is or might be doing to the American people are unpatriotic.
__________________
Ignorance is curable, stupidity is not.
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18 Nov 2005, 03:19
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#17
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I am.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
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Re: I Question Your Patriotism
Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
Similarly, those who feel that the best interests of the American people are best served by getting out of Iraq are patriots.
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__________________
hi
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