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Unread 3 Jun 2004, 01:56   #1
Heartless
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[DISCUSS] "Inofficial rules for PA politics"

First of all I do hope nobody will want to flame this thread to hell but instead give it a serious thought and then a nice reply.

I think since we have seen most major alliances starting solo in order to increase the fun part of the game, we should also find ways to increase the fun during the round, so this thread has the intention to come up with some kind of "gentlemen's agreement" if you want to call it that way.

Everyone agrees that during the round it is ok to form cooperations in order to take down the leading alliance. This does, however, rise the question at which point an alliance will be considered as "down". I think as soon as one alliance is out of the top 3 or top 5 alliance ranking it should be considered as down and thus cooperations with the new #1, as far as they are/were included, have to end immediately.
There are several reasons for it:
1) Taking an alliance out of top 3/5 will mean that they will have to fight a bit more to get back into the race for the #1 spot, but won't take them out of game business completely.
2) Taking an alliance out of top 3/5 should also ensure that we won't have any long-term blocks and increase the chance to win for everyone as the new #1 cannot sit for a too long time on the place at the sun.
3) Excluding the new #1 from all cooperations would mean that there are indeed no long-term blocks to be formed, thus more action and in the end more fun for everyone as nobody will seriously get bashed to hell.

I would like to have everyone else giving this a thought and I do as well know that it would come down to irrelevant things like "honour" or "reputation" to stick to it. But if we are all more or less deciding to start solo for the fun then we should also come up with some inofficial agreements between the alliance HC's to ensure the fun during the round. After all, having fun doesn't exclude the chance to win.
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Unread 3 Jun 2004, 02:04   #2
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Re: [DISCUSS] "Inofficial rules for PA politics"

This just seems an excuse for the #2 ally to get a big block to **** up the #1 ally. i.e an excuse for you to form a block "legally", for want of a better word


eg. u(as Fang) are #2 so get 3-4 allies to join with you to screw over the #1 ally whoever it mayb
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Unread 3 Jun 2004, 02:10   #3
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Re: [DISCUSS] "Inofficial rules for PA politics"

A problem with that is when you have alliances not wanting to bring down the #1 alliance because of past/ current relations to the top ally. This would be an even greater problem, is if those friendly to #1 are top 5/10 alliances themselves, then old stagnation will return.

If such allies are unwilling to target the #1 ally (for whatever reason), its possible they will help that #1 ally by targetting any coopers against #1 spot.

While this is hypothetical, i think it does raise issues that relate to Sids universal declaration against blocks. Even if there are no "official" attack coops, friends will avoid friends and target those with whom they either have no friendly relationship or are of course hostile towards (through past or current events).

Would FaNG go at MISTu, WP against NoS or Valhalla vs ToF?
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Unread 3 Jun 2004, 02:11   #4
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Re: [DISCUSS] "Inofficial rules for PA politics"

Heartless thats a good proposal, infact flawless apart from the exact numbers of when what is the case.
The situation you describe is easily exploidable, the #2 would encourage ppl to gang up on the #1 and then after getting themself on the #1 spot go randomly for easy roids while its partners keep the former #1 busy. This would lead most likely to a prolonged phase of a block while the new #1 can work on its advantage for the time once the former #1 drops out of the top 5 .
On a 2nd thought the "first" #1 of the round would have a major disadvantage, aslong as they fight back the new #1 can gain on the rest without fearing a block, unless the first and former #1 drops out of the top5 which can actually take some time (seen in r10 fang).
Also there would be the need of a limitation of how big the block is allowed to be, the block would otherwise not disband but just kick the highest ranked member each time. This would be bad for the game mechanics, as it would not encourage the alliances to try hard because they only can exspect to be smacked to pieces by the rest of the now blocked universe. i.e. dedication to the game would be an unneccesary gift and winning only the random result of the last few ticks ( can #1 hold its position over the last hours or will it be replaced by the #2 which is in the block right before ticks stop, unfair imo)
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Unread 3 Jun 2004, 02:12   #5
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Re: [DISCUSS] "Inofficial rules for PA politics"

well if they follow the system they shouldnt be on #1 spot for long :-)

but i doubt that it works .... every alliance would just aim for #1 position as usual and try to abuse the so called "gentlemen agreement" ... if it's about roids or rankings i never met a gentleman in PA

but i think i have to agree heartless that it will be a problem to stop the #1 alliance if everyone is on their own ... there will be team ups anyway or blockings or whatever you want to call it ....
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Unread 3 Jun 2004, 02:15   #6
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Re: [DISCUSS] "Inofficial rules for PA politics"

as an addition this also would mean that every alliance playing must sign that they play to win and not just to achieve some shadow goal (beeing in the top10 or beeing better then xy alliance) otherwise the "block" could consist of ppl who have no real interest to stop the #1 or the #2 after that.
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Unread 3 Jun 2004, 02:17   #7
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Re: [DISCUSS] "Inofficial rules for PA politics"

and every alliance has to accept this agreement ofc - if only 1 disagrees it sucks
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Unread 3 Jun 2004, 02:33   #8
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Re: [DISCUSS] "Inofficial rules for PA politics"

It sounds like a castrated version of Sid's plan, but just to screw over any #1 alliance.
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Unread 3 Jun 2004, 02:43   #9
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Re: [DISCUSS] "Inofficial rules for PA politics"

'What does one do when one can't sleep'

... read AD it would seem :o


The proposal tbh sounds to me like a 'leave the door just slightly open just in case'.

By all means, organise a massive attack on the top gal of the winning alliance in the last week, the good old fashioned way. Just say 'at xx:xx everyone will launch everything x ETA at XX:XX before tick', and be done with it :)

But PA has become too high-tech to say you can cooperate just to bash one alliance out of T3.
In the good old days (R 2-3) you could still sit in an oh so NOT secret channel chatting about how we're gonna take down VtS or Fury (lo sqrleh dear :o)), all the goodwill in the world, but no clue about organisation in those days, no shared intel-dbases, no shared BC chans, no whatever, just goodwill :) Nowadays every selfrespecting alliance is more of an accountant-office than a community of ppl heh.
Group up just to take #1 down? No way, not after sharing intel and coords.
Kick the top alliance down just for the good of the game? No way, you only organise it if you want to be the next #1.

(btw how would you stop for example an alliance splitting up in lets say 2 for argument's sake to lower their score in the T10, and only when the last week comes merge it up so they rise above the rest? - provided nothing too drastically changed in the alliance in game system, some good mathemathicians could work around any risk of ending up in the dangerzone)


In a perfect world a gentleman's agreement would count for alot, but it's not going to work in PA, unless this one round i sat out changed so much that i can't even beging to phantom it anymore.

Not flaming the idea, just giving my 2cents. I don't believe in preaching to go solo and then open a backdoor. I'm a romantic that believes in valiant scenes of the white knight with just his bare hands against the fire-dragon heh.



If any alliance can guarantee me they can give me a round with no hassle of coord-checks, no 'secret lovers' that shouldn't be attacked for some dark reason, no half-way grouping up with other alliances 'for the good of the game' - you get what i mean - then drop me a line, i might invest my $'s into PA again heh.
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Unread 3 Jun 2004, 02:44   #10
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Re: [DISCUSS] "Inofficial rules for PA politics"

An alliance is down when their fleet is beyond being a possible threat. Roids can always be taken away. The hard part if having a disciplined alliance attack a planet simply to kill their return fleet.
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Unread 3 Jun 2004, 02:46   #11
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Re: [DISCUSS] "Inofficial rules for PA politics"

I remember in r2 signing up for a next day raid on the Legion site heh. Ahh the old secure days.
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Unread 3 Jun 2004, 02:51   #12
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Re: [DISCUSS] "Inofficial rules for PA politics"

I am very aware of the flaws of this proposal, but in the end those flaws come down to all alliance HC's and there willingness of making this an enjoyable game again. There is also the possibility of secret agendas at every alliance thus it does come down to everyones honesty. I mean face it: If we should have secret agreements again somewhere or having revenge thoughts dictating some alliances politics, then we are just on the way to have another block-dominated round in round 12, and have in no way a different round than before.

But I sense a "change" in the mentality of quite a few of the older and newer major alliances as they more and more notice as well that the joy of this game is fading more and more when the game mechanics will go on and on as before. Oh, and if the joy for everyone will rise again because there are no die-hard-cooperations any more, we might even face more players again, which would mean more roids, more competition and even more political options again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoredOfThis
"Unofficial"
Inofficial is also correct, troll
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Unread 3 Jun 2004, 03:14   #13
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Re: [DISCUSS] "Inofficial rules for PA politics"

I would like to see some blocks.
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Unread 3 Jun 2004, 05:46   #14
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Re: [DISCUSS] "Inofficial rules for PA politics"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Razorback
Also there would be the need of a limitation of how big the block is allowed to be, the block would otherwise not disband but just kick the highest ranked member each time. This would be bad for the game mechanics, as it would not encourage the alliances to try hard because they only can exspect to be smacked to pieces by the rest of the now blocked universe. i.e. dedication to the game would be an unneccesary gift and winning only the random result of the last few ticks ( can #1 hold its position over the last hours or will it be replaced by the #2 which is in the block right before ticks stop, unfair imo)
I have been thinking alot about this in the past. And I also had a short pm with Sid about it a few weeks ago. Personally I would favour if cooperation would be limited to the same amount of people as the in-game alliance limit, thus 100 people at the moment. Yes I know that would remove a huge part of the political game, but let's be honest: politics have mainly the use of becoming bigger than your enemy, so to unbalance the game in a way.
Maybe it would be worth to put that limit up to 150 people so we would have political options for top alliances as well, but those would mean that not 2 of the major alliances can cooperate and create some kind of stagnation and then battle it out between themselves only in the end.

Anyways, the game mechanics towards alliances would need to be modified in order to have this happening; and more important a lot of people would need to change their attitude. I am sure that you, Focht, like most others will agree with me that those limits are something which cannot be hardcoded into the game. That's why I call it "gentlemen's agreement".

PS: I do support that any cooperation which exceeds an agreed limit gets smashed by the whole universe, simply because nobody should accept such "lame" tactics any longer; people need to be encouraged to try harder by putting more effort into the game, not by ganging up with more friends.
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Unread 3 Jun 2004, 07:58   #15
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Re: [DISCUSS] "Inofficial rules for PA politics"

I have some doubts about this. Like wha would deem an alliance to be number 1 (roids/score/ships/growth).

Also what would stop this escalating. 1 is under attack from 2,3,4. whats to stop him getting support from 4,5,6,7,8 and 9?

Also unoffical is without authority. Inofficial in this sense while being old english is totally correct (Not official; not having official sanction or authority) and I would hazard a guess and say more grammatically correct than unofficial, butit is splitting hairs and dreadn00b has alread been owned by heartless so I will shut up now
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Unread 3 Jun 2004, 09:25   #16
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Re: [DISCUSS] "Inofficial rules for PA politics"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumad
I have some doubts about this. Like wha would deem an alliance to be number 1 (roids/score/ships/growth).
Number 1 in the rankings screen, I'd guess. As that's what the indicator is for the winning alliance at the end, also...
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Unread 3 Jun 2004, 10:27   #17
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Re: [DISCUSS] "Inofficial rules for PA politics"

ew...
so this means that you now can gang up officially on FAnG....?

nasty

sounds like fun....
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Unread 3 Jun 2004, 10:48   #18
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Re: [DISCUSS] "Inofficial rules for PA politics"

heh this just seems like an excuse to block after all.... you say you don't want to block whole round. yet you ask if you can???

chances are you won't be #1 alliance, so if you aint #1 alliance you can block and else you can't?
any idea how silly that sounds? hehe
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Unread 3 Jun 2004, 10:50   #19
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Re: [DISCUSS] "Inofficial rules for PA politics"

sounds good....
apart from the fact.. that what if FAnG = 1... then the other have the right to gang up against us...

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Unread 3 Jun 2004, 11:17   #20
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Re: [DISCUSS] "Inofficial rules for PA politics"

Why block at all? The alliance who has the #1 spot will have the most incoming anyways. Massive incoming from all the other alliances on top5. Every alliance wants to win the round, so naturally the alliance who's sitting on the #1 spot will get massive incoming from every alliance that wants to win, meaning all top5 alliances and quite a few top 10 alliances.

No need to make these rules about it. Personally I think it would be better not to have this gentlemen agreement and let PA go as PA goes. Would the 4/5 of the top 10 alliance attacking #1 be fair? Not at all, they wouldn't stand a chance, even if they are ten times as orgainsed, simple numbers. So I agree with some of the posts here that this is just an excuse to block up to make absolutly sure you can take down the alliance leading this game instead of making it a fair race.
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Unread 3 Jun 2004, 11:25   #21
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Re: [DISCUSS] "Inofficial rules for PA politics"

No sitting on your arse for the sake of security - if there's a rival, take him out. Far simpler in my opinion. It would avoid most of this moral high ground stuff that's been going on, and simply involve people manoevreing politically and militarily for the prize of #1.

I'd personally have the creators shut down the top 20 of alliances who simply stagnate and want to sit out the round on their arse - but that's a view people aren't going to agree with, nor do I expect them to.
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Unread 3 Jun 2004, 13:04   #22
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Re: [DISCUSS] "Inofficial rules for PA politics"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aviendha
The proposal tbh sounds to me like a 'leave the door just slightly open just in case'.

By all means, organise a massive attack on the top gal of the winning alliance in the last week, the good old fashioned way. Just say 'at xx:xx everyone will launch everything x ETA at XX:XX before tick', and be done with it

But PA has become too high-tech to say you can cooperate just to bash one alliance out of T3.
In the good old days (R 2-3) you could still sit in an oh so NOT secret channel chatting about how we're gonna take down VtS or Fury (lo sqrleh dear )), all the goodwill in the world, but no clue about organisation in those days, no shared intel-dbases, no shared BC chans, no whatever, just goodwill Nowadays every selfrespecting alliance is more of an accountant-office than a community of ppl heh.
Group up just to take #1 down? No way, not after sharing intel and coords.
Kick the top alliance down just for the good of the game? No way, you only organise it if you want to be the next #1.

(btw how would you stop for example an alliance splitting up in lets say 2 for argument's sake to lower their score in the T10, and only when the last week comes merge it up so they rise above the rest? - provided nothing too drastically changed in the alliance in game system, some good mathemathicians could work around any risk of ending up in the dangerzone)


In a perfect world a gentleman's agreement would count for alot, but it's not going to work in PA, unless this one round i sat out changed so much that i can't even beging to phantom it anymore.

Not flaming the idea, just giving my 2cents. I don't believe in preaching to go solo and then open a backdoor. I'm a romantic that believes in valiant scenes of the white knight with just his bare hands against the fire-dragon heh.



If any alliance can guarantee me they can give me a round with no hassle of coord-checks, no 'secret lovers' that shouldn't be attacked for some dark reason, no half-way grouping up with other alliances 'for the good of the game' - you get what i mean - then drop me a line, i might invest my $'s into PA again heh.
Hey Aviebabe, long time no peep.

I agree very much with this. Anyone who knows me knows I'm very cynical, I'm very much of the school of I'll believe it when I see it. That doesn't mean to say I'm not inclined to give it a go, I'd like to believe we'll see agreements only forming in response to an inbalance in the universe, and even then very much on the basis of readdressing the balance, but I fear some will use it as a thinly-veiled excuse to form or reveal cooperation.
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Unread 3 Jun 2004, 14:51   #23
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Re: [DISCUSS] "Inofficial rules for PA politics"

Ok, maybe to set something correct:

This thread does in no way want to justify blocking or find reasons around it, it has the intention to find a regulation we all agree on. I am looking for an upper border which we all can comfort with (I would define it as the alliance member limit) for example.
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Unread 3 Jun 2004, 14:56   #24
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Re: [DISCUSS] "Inofficial rules for PA politics"

There wont be a need for this and it IS blocking. Play pa without allying up with other alliances for one round. Heartless, don't you think the alliance holding the top spot will have massive incoming from the other alliances as there wont be any naps? I don't think they would hit each other and leave #1 alone, in fact I'm sure that wont happen.
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Unread 3 Jun 2004, 15:15   #25
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Re: [DISCUSS] "Inofficial rules for PA politics"

There wont be any naps?
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Unread 3 Jun 2004, 15:24   #26
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Re: [DISCUSS] "Inofficial rules for PA politics"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Outh
There wont be a need for this and it IS blocking. Play pa without allying up with other alliances for one round. Heartless, don't you think the alliance holding the top spot will have massive incoming from the other alliances as there wont be any naps? I don't think they would hit each other and leave #1 alone, in fact I'm sure that wont happen.
This would be the ideal vision of a round, but so far it has only been agreed on everyone starting solo. If we could find a consent on the basis that nobody will nap at any time, I'd appreciate it as well.
The backside of the medal would of course be that smaller alliances wouldn't necessarily have a chance to compete. Maybe they would be urged to rethink about themselves then, and instead of forming pacts they would be needed to merge or change their recruitment protocols. It would be worth a shot I think.
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Unread 3 Jun 2004, 15:30   #27
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Re: [DISCUSS] "Inofficial rules for PA politics"

Why can't #2 try to improve their own average by providing better attacks for their members and defend off attacks on their members? I don't think wars should start right after protection. Remember round 4 when there was kind of a cold war whole round until NoS/Cell went back to VeX. Before this everyone was mostly attacking the best targets they found. And I liked this, to not end the game 2-3 days after protection ends.

It is not okey to start blocking. It is an illusion that #1 ally gonna say, hey we where #1 it's okey u guys formed a 6 alliance block to bring us down.. We deserved it. Blocking leads to blocking. Some people need to get some balls and have the guts to live with the unsertainty of who will win the round for more then 1 week into the round. A random round is supposed to be fun, don't make it into a normal round ffs!
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Unread 3 Jun 2004, 15:40   #28
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Re: [DISCUSS] "Inofficial rules for PA politics"

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
I'd personally have the creators shut down the top 20 of alliances who simply stagnate and want to sit out the round on their arse - but that's a view people aren't going to agree with, nor do I expect them to.
While this idea is tempting i doubt it would be wise, considering there are only <20 alliances left in the game. So it would be easier to just pull the plug of the whole :P
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Unread 3 Jun 2004, 15:43   #29
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Re: [DISCUSS] "Inofficial rules for PA politics"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Storebo
Why can't #2 try to improve their own average by providing better attacks for their members and defend off attacks on their members? I don't think wars should start right after protection. Remember round 4 when there was kind of a cold war whole round until NoS/Cell went back to VeX. Before this everyone was mostly attacking the best targets they found. And I liked this, to not end the game 2-3 days after protection ends.

It is not okey to start blocking. It is an illusion that #1 ally gonna say, hey we where #1 it's okey u guys formed a 6 alliance block to bring us down.. We deserved it. Blocking leads to blocking. Some people need to get some balls and have the guts to live with the unsertainty of who will win the round for more then 1 week into the round. A random round is supposed to be fun, don't make it into a normal round ffs!
Agreed, #2 should be able to improve their own average. Personally I don't think that targetting special alliances in order to bring them down is correct either, it is just the way this game has developed for some strange reason... attacking the ones with most roids should lead to the universe regulating itself.

So, in order to find out who has the balls and who has not, why not get some kind of agreement all alliance HC's sign? I mean, every HC who has stated that his alliance will start solo and fight solo should agree on not napping or allying with others at any time during the round, thus no public and no private agreements. If alliance commands do not want to agree on this then I think we can definately say their intentions to go solo are not for real (one could say they are lieing) and they are just trying to trick everyone with their statements.
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Unread 3 Jun 2004, 15:48   #30
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Re: [DISCUSS] "Inofficial rules for PA politics"

I think a simple "no top 3 alliance is allowed to ally/nap anyone" would do wonders. To gang up on the leading alliance at any time, is meaningless imo as the alliance ending up on top at the final tick, will be there by pure luck and nothing else.
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Unread 3 Jun 2004, 15:53   #31
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Re: [DISCUSS] "Inofficial rules for PA politics"

I dont think the issue is the agreeing part here heartless. However the suspected breach of rules or the accusations without proof are.
Hypotetically alliance A claims soloplans, so does everyone else. How will we see that they actually break their word ?
I.e. alliance A attacks B while C decides to attack B aswell. now B would claim "damn they blocked". The proof would be the same without A/C coordinating with each other, apart from not hitting their respective members in each gal. So the question is how far do ppl trust each other and how quick will we see a witchhunt initiated by the "loser" against those who might successfully launch assaults against him. Excuses are usually cheaply made so what would be different in this case ?

I have a few ideas to this topic, but they would force ppl into alliances. I.e. you can only attack a galaxy if all targets are booked and launched upon and you an only hit single planets if your alliance declared war on the alliance "ingame". Each alliance would have only limited declarations and limited incoming declarations to prevent gangbangs. Also each alliance must follow those attacks or the wardeclaration will be removed ingame automatically (to prevent fake declarations to fill slots). Additionally an Admin would be needed to watch the statistics of such wars from the ingame tools, i.e. recall without defence etc to prevent "cheating". Those ideas are just randomly picked, clearly not the best but a good starting point to find a "hardcoded" solution.
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Unread 3 Jun 2004, 16:59   #32
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Re: [DISCUSS] "Inofficial rules for PA politics"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Outh
I don't think they would hit each other and leave #1 alone, in fact I'm sure that wont happen.
You didnt play last p|anetia round i see
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Unread 3 Jun 2004, 18:07   #33
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Re: [DISCUSS] "Inofficial rules for PA politics"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless
Agreed, #2 should be able to improve their own average. Personally I don't think that targetting special alliances in order to bring them down is correct either, it is just the way this game has developed for some strange reason... attacking the ones with most roids should lead to the universe regulating itself.

So, in order to find out who has the balls and who has not, why not get some kind of agreement all alliance HC's sign? I mean, every HC who has stated that his alliance will start solo and fight solo should agree on not napping or allying with others at any time during the round, thus no public and no private agreements. If alliance commands do not want to agree on this then I think we can definately say their intentions to go solo are not for real (one could say they are lieing) and they are just trying to trick everyone with their statements.
Funny how theese days the best alliances are the ones that manages to get more allies and wipe out the other. If we truly had a block free round. The winning alliance could actually say they where the best. I admitt I would want to twat the ones above me aswell, to place myself up there. But we should all try to stay away from this. Not saying 1vs1 alliance war is wrong to win. But to get everyone else to side with u to bring down your enemies would just take this game back to what it was. This probably will happen in the end. But if we all just try to avoid it for aslong as possible, then most alliances will enjoy this round.
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Unread 3 Jun 2004, 18:36   #34
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Re: [DISCUSS] "Inofficial rules for PA politics"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Razorback
I dont think the issue is the agreeing part here heartless. However the suspected breach of rules or the accusations without proof are.
Hypotetically alliance A claims soloplans, so does everyone else. How will we see that they actually break their word ?
I.e. alliance A attacks B while C decides to attack B aswell. now B would claim "damn they blocked". The proof would be the same without A/C coordinating with each other, apart from not hitting their respective members in each gal. So the question is how far do ppl trust each other and how quick will we see a witchhunt initiated by the "loser" against those who might successfully launch assaults against him. Excuses are usually cheaply made so what would be different in this case ?
As I mentioned earlier, it does in the end come down to everyones honesty, thus I can only agree with your post. In order to establish the trust that people are required to have, an agreement again would help. And even if some sore losers are going to try to start a witch hunt, we should have the conscience of the universe arguing against it, and maybe in the end even get some support from the PA Team with, for example, publishing which coords belonged to which alliance. A cooperation between alliances can be pretty easily estimated, you should know that. Coincidences have some limitations as in the amount of times they appear, thus if alliance A and B constantly keep on hitting the same gals something does smell indeed fishy, especially when they should start waving planets/galaxies together "by accident". It would need some general consent on this issue, though, as from where on we can call something a cooperation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Razorback
I have a few ideas to this topic, but they would force ppl into alliances. I.e. you can only attack a galaxy if all targets are booked and launched upon and you an only hit single planets if your alliance declared war on the alliance "ingame". Each alliance would have only limited declarations and limited incoming declarations to prevent gangbangs. Also each alliance must follow those attacks or the wardeclaration will be removed ingame automatically (to prevent fake declarations to fill slots). Additionally an Admin would be needed to watch the statistics of such wars from the ingame tools, i.e. recall without defence etc to prevent "cheating". Those ideas are just randomly picked, clearly not the best but a good starting point to find a "hardcoded" solution.
It is the question whether we will ever see hard-coded politics or not. There have been quite a few suggestions on this, tbh it is about time PA implements something there. If not, fine as well, moving on to the next game then as I am personally sick of this blocking - secret or public doesn't matter there. If people cannot win by their own dedication, or if they think it would be enough to be dedicated for say half a round, then they simply should piss off and not ask 100 other friends to team up with them.
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Unread 3 Jun 2004, 18:49   #35
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Re: [DISCUSS] "Inofficial rules for PA politics"

With this proposal, wouldn't it be a huge advantage to be #2 when protecion mode runs out?
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Unread 3 Jun 2004, 18:57   #36
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Re: [DISCUSS] "Inofficial rules for PA politics"

Yes. Then they would be at a huge disadvantage when they reach #1. If this was a perfect world.
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Unread 3 Jun 2004, 19:46   #37
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Re: [DISCUSS] "Inofficial rules for PA politics"

I think it will be a huge disadvantage when you have a lot of roids but no fleet to defend it
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Unread 3 Jun 2004, 19:56   #38
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Re: [DISCUSS] "Inofficial rules for PA politics"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless
I think it will be a huge disadvantage when you have a lot of roids but no fleet to defend it
That's true of any planet.
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Unread 3 Jun 2004, 20:22   #39
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Re: [DISCUSS] "Inofficial rules for PA politics"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth
That's true of any planet.
No, don't say so!

Seriously, I was more trying to point at the fact that no alliance should feel safe at any time.
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Unread 3 Jun 2004, 20:28   #40
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Re: [DISCUSS] "Inofficial rules for PA politics"

Whats with the pretty colours in your sig Nadar ?
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Unread 3 Jun 2004, 20:30   #41
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Re: [DISCUSS] "Inofficial rules for PA politics"

hmm, i can't see whoever the #1 ally is letting the proposal happen. I think ppl are naive if they believe the #1 ally will sit there and let a "block" attack them and push them down the rankings, it will more likely end up like a domino effect whereby that ally gets others to help them and therefore create a block war, which is something we are trying to prevent...
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Unread 3 Jun 2004, 20:35   #42
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Re: [DISCUSS] "Inofficial rules for PA politics"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless
I am very aware of the flaws of this proposal, but in the end those flaws come down to all alliance HC's and there willingness of making this an enjoyable game again. There is also the possibility of secret agendas at every alliance thus it does come down to everyones honesty. I mean face it: If we should have secret agreements again somewhere or having revenge thoughts dictating some alliances politics, then we are just on the way to have another block-dominated round in round 12, and have in no way a different round than before.

But I sense a "change" in the mentality of quite a few of the older and newer major alliances as they more and more notice as well that the joy of this game is fading more and more when the game mechanics will go on and on as before. Oh, and if the joy for everyone will rise again because there are no die-hard-cooperations any more, we might even face more players again, which would mean more roids, more competition and even more political options again.
Can i say from the bottom of my heart that this is the most hypocrite thread i have ever seen/read here. I am not saying i disagree with the intention of this thread.. as i does have some points... But this coming from a HC of the winning alliance, and one of the ppl who was responsible for the most boring round ever in my playing history is just a bit to much. I have a feeling the only reason for this is trying to prevent whatever alliance/group of alliances (if any exists already?) to gang up on you and "settle some old grudges".
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Unread 3 Jun 2004, 21:30   #43
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Re: [DISCUSS] "Inofficial rules for PA politics"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wandows
Can i say from the bottom of my heart that this is the most hypocrite thread i have ever seen/read here. I am not saying i disagree with the intention of this thread.. as i does have some points... But this coming from a HC of the winning alliance, and one of the ppl who was responsible for the most boring round ever in my playing history is just a bit to much. I have a feeling the only reason for this is trying to prevent whatever alliance/group of alliances (if any exists already?) to gang up on you and "settle some old grudges".
I was just waiting for such a post Wandows, thanks for being the first to make it.
Actually you guys think this is just proposed by FAnG people and 1up people in order to have a chance of survival and not seeing the universe gang up on them. There is definately a way to assume this, probably I would assume the same if I were you. But maybe you want to try and see that last round for example wasn't just boring for your side only. Actually it was most times just as boring for us, and only the private galaxies actually kept the block together for that long.
Also, it wasn't just FAnG ruining the round. You cannot blame the #1 alliance for wanting to stay #1. It was the job of every alliance which is not on the #1 spot to take down the #1, but there was most of the time absolutely no opposition, not even ELV tried to put up a fight (or to get another partner into the boat to match our numbers). If you might want to find a reason for the boring round then look at yourself as well, and if you want a reason for not splitting up the block from FAnG's part, as I said: private galaxies and no need to split up something which just ensures your #1 position.

Anyways, the problem we are now facing is: Do we stick to old stuff like taking revenge on alliance A for ruining one round for alliance X, Y or Z, or do we try to break up this never-ending circle?
I think there is a lot of willingness among the more educated and mature HC's of the universe to break up the circle, why else would so many people want to go solo? I haven't seen Spinner stating: "Blocks are inacceptable as of now and I will delete all alliances which cooperate."
If you want to gang up on someone, please, then do it. Make your block and announce it, it is your very own decision and I will be the last one to blame you for creating the block.
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Unread 3 Jun 2004, 21:57   #44
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Re: [DISCUSS] "Inofficial rules for PA politics"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless
I was just waiting for such a post Wandows, thanks for being the first to make it.
Actually you guys think this is just proposed by FAnG people and 1up people in order to have a chance of survival and not seeing the universe gang up on them. There is definately a way to assume this, probably I would assume the same if I were you. But maybe you want to try and see that last round for example wasn't just boring for your side only. Actually it was most times just as boring for us, and only the private galaxies actually kept the block together for that long.
Also, it wasn't just FAnG ruining the round. You cannot blame the #1 alliance for wanting to stay #1. It was the job of every alliance which is not on the #1 spot to take down the #1, but there was most of the time absolutely no opposition, not even ELV tried to put up a fight (or to get another partner into the boat to match our numbers). If you might want to find a reason for the boring round then look at yourself as well, and if you want a reason for not splitting up the block from FAnG's part, as I said: private galaxies and no need to split up something which just ensures your #1 position.
np for that post any time

as for this kind of thread posted by FAnG / 1up, things like this are being suggested every round for like the past 3(?) rounds, ppl say every "we won't block". Yet everyone round we have faced them. And tbh, in essention blocks ain't bad. They become bad when the balance of power is shifted to much in 1 direction.

Like what happened when WP "joined" FPM last round, EVL was fully hit, and some "leftover" alliances scattered throughout the uni (VGN/ND/etc/etc) hitting random targets. effectively spoken numbers were moving fast towards NARWEET/VVOMM days (which again everyone at that time said they didn't want to happen anymore.. but ow... look what happened \o/). In the past ppl have really showed to have learned from their "mistakes" they made to "win the round", by letting it happen all over again and again and again. So tbh what would you expect coming round?

And its easy to say "its up to the oposition to do something about it", but you know thats not gonna work. You can not get alot of alliances all with their noses in the same direction. There are always ppl that want different things and refuse to attack a certain target or participate in a certain area. This especially when you did not intend to work together at the start.

The ones that block that leads a stagnated game is the only one that can change the round. The only thing that the oposition can do is try not to lose to many members through constant bashing with huge overkills and throw some stones at them of which some will hit the target but most will miss.

My main concern is alliances like the ones that won last round (no offence here, as you in a way earned that spot) are to afraid for their precious ranking to think about the fun in the game. You yourself said it, it was was a boring round for you aswell....Well if that would have been my alliance.... i would have gone for fun above rankings. Maybe not smart in the eyes of all/most of the "leet-experienced-well-thought-through" command members around here, but i value fun above ranks.

And how much you would want to.. i have seen enough in my pa career to know that there won't be changing much in the end. This round might start blockless (one of the advantages of a random round), but i doubt it will end that way. And i think everyone knows that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless
Anyways, the problem we are now facing is: Do we stick to old stuff like taking revenge on alliance A for ruining one round for alliance X, Y or Z, or do we try to break up this never-ending circle?
I think there is a lot of willingness among the more educated and mature HC's of the universe to break up the circle, why else would so many people want to go solo? I haven't seen Spinner stating: "Blocks are inacceptable as of now and I will delete all alliances which cooperate."
If you want to gang up on someone, please, then do it. Make your block and announce it, it is your very own decision and I will be the last one to blame you for creating the block.
I am not sure if you were aiming this at me personal... but if you did its obvious you don't know me at all .

As far breaking the circle...... how much ppl would like that to happen... its not gonna. There will always be ppl who want to get even in a way, either with some persons or a alliance. Didn't FAnG/Phraktos block agianst Ely (Eclipse & ToT/Lch) to get even with them for losing r10 in the end?

Gang ups will keep happening, its the nature of the "beast". Ppl will always see the biggest/strongest as their "worst enemy/opponent". It depends on the character how they deal with it and peoples characters are impossible to change
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Unread 3 Jun 2004, 22:40   #45
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Re: [DISCUSS] "Inofficial rules for PA politics"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wandows
np for that post any time

as for this kind of thread posted by FAnG / 1up, things like this are being suggested every round for like the past 3(?) rounds, ppl say every "we won't block". Yet everyone round we have faced them. And tbh, in essention blocks ain't bad. They become bad when the balance of power is shifted to much in 1 direction.

Like what happened when WP "joined" FPM last round, EVL was fully hit, and some "leftover" alliances scattered throughout the uni (VGN/ND/etc/etc) hitting random targets. effectively spoken numbers were moving fast towards NARWEET/VVOMM days (which again everyone at that time said they didn't want to happen anymore.. but ow... look what happened \o/). In the past ppl have really showed to have learned from their "mistakes" they made to "win the round", by letting it happen all over again and again and again. So tbh what would you expect coming round?

And its easy to say "its up to the oposition to do something about it", but you know thats not gonna work. You can not get alot of alliances all with their noses in the same direction. There are always ppl that want different things and refuse to attack a certain target or participate in a certain area. This especially when you did not intend to work together at the start.

The ones that block that leads a stagnated game is the only one that can change the round. The only thing that the oposition can do is try not to lose to many members through constant bashing with huge overkills and throw some stones at them of which some will hit the target but most will miss.

My main concern is alliances like the ones that won last round (no offence here, as you in a way earned that spot) are to afraid for their precious ranking to think about the fun in the game. You yourself said it, it was was a boring round for you aswell....Well if that would have been my alliance.... i would have gone for fun above rankings. Maybe not smart in the eyes of all/most of the "leet-experienced-well-thought-through" command members around here, but i value fun above ranks.
It has indeed been stated almost every round since round 8 I think, but everytime either a new coming "top alliance" or an already existing major alliance had started forming a block.

This time it is somewhat different: 1up, which are expected to become a rock solid alliance and FAnG as the winning alliance of last round have independantly decided to take a step into the direction of breaking up the circle. While 1up as it seems has the aim of proving their strength in a free-for-all universe, FAnG intended to do this step because we have seen how boring last round was.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wandows
And how much you would want to.. i have seen enough in my pa career to know that there won't be changing much in the end. This round might start blockless (one of the advantages of a random round), but i doubt it will end that way. And i think everyone knows that.
I know this fact hence I am trying to encourage a discussion about limitations in order to not see something dominant like FPM last round being established mid-round now, especially when you do not have a jealous member inside such a block like Phraktos. I know that some alliances are perfectly comfortable with ending #2 or #3 in the rankings, it is up to the alliances like 1up or FAnG which aim for the #1 spot to cancel any deals made with such alliances during a round.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wandows
I am not sure if you were aiming this at me personal... but if you did its obvious you don't know me at all .

As far breaking the circle...... how much ppl would like that to happen... its not gonna. There will always be ppl who want to get even in a way, either with some persons or a alliance. Didn't FAnG/Phraktos block agianst Ely (Eclipse & ToT/Lch) to get even with them for losing r10 in the end?

Gang ups will keep happening, its the nature of the "beast". Ppl will always see the biggest/strongest as their "worst enemy/opponent". It depends on the character how they deal with it and peoples characters are impossible to change
Well I am usually a pessimist when it comes to certain things, but I think we have now reached a point where every alliance, if not even every dedicated player, should have realized that if they continue playing the game this way they will simply scare away people. You said yourself, most alliances have a hard time keeping their members together when they are on the losing side. Most of those people are the ones which will retire from the game because they know nothing will change. I would count myself as one of those. If it wouldn't have been for getting FAnG back into the PA business I wouldn't want to continue this game. Simply because trying hard is one thing, but being outblocked is something you cannot play against, no matter how hard you try (unless you are one of the few happy mercenaries which know a way to get you arbiter protection).
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Unread 3 Jun 2004, 22:43   #46
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Re: [DISCUSS] "Inofficial rules for PA politics"

It's a war game, just do what the hell you want to win but have the decency to try and make it interesting along the way! Don't take the easy and worthless victory, take on a challenge instead. Restrictions of any sort won't work because no alliance will stick to them.
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Unread 3 Jun 2004, 23:22   #47
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Re: [DISCUSS] "Inofficial rules for PA politics"

Quote:
Originally Posted by fbd
It's a war game, just do what the hell you want to win but have the decency to try and make it interesting along the way! Don't take the easy and worthless victory, take on a challenge instead. Restrictions of any sort won't work because no alliance will stick to them.
Deviating slightly from the topic of the thread, but even if your pessimistic outlook is correct, then what would be so boring about having restrictions which alliances then worked around or secretly evaded? Surely even that would be better than starting off with 2 sides - one of which will inevitably turn out to be substantially stronger than the other?

One of the problems with traditional blocks is the exchange of membership information which happens. That mutual possession of one another's members lists, on its own, is a strong disincentive to unblock swiftly. With next round only being semi-random, blocks formed before ticks start will also most likely share buddy groups - immediately leading to an additional problem with the dissolution of such blocks.

Surely you'd agree that even if the agreement/restrictions only worked until aftert icks started it'd be an improvement? As that at least would make dissolution of blocks much easier - and could be viewed as a prtial success. I'm still optimistic we can achieve rather more than that.
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Unread 4 Jun 2004, 02:33   #48
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Re: [DISCUSS] "Inofficial rules for PA politics"

here's a thought, let's let every alliance HC run their alliance the way they want. Why should anyone agree to anyone's proposal's or "gentlemens agreements"? Is that not someone dictating policy to your alliance?

If "alliance A" is cool with "alliance B", and they want to work together, that's up to them isn't it? And if both are cool with "alliance C", then why can't they work with them as well?

End of the day, all this crap on this board I've spent the last hour reading in meaningless. If "alliance A" starts getting their asses handed to them, they are gonna look for help, and I have a hard time believing that Sid's new alliance or anyone else is just gonna sit here and take their beating on their own without trying to reinforce their military machine.

PA has rules, and plenty of them. If the games creator's wanted more rules than what they have, they would add those rules to the existing list.

I makes me laugh to watch all the political BS on these boards. We have Politicians, Fortune Tellers, Crybabies, Whiners, Know It Alls, and Celebs, and other assorted attention sluts. And all of them sit here posting thread after thread about the same BS over and over again, and it's all a re-run of the same posts in previous rounds. It's like a soap opera, different cast, same BS. They try to control public opinion, and dictate a future that not one of them could possibly imagine (except the fortune tellers ofcoarse, spose they got a crystal ball or some shit)

I have an idea......How about we play Planetarion....
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Unread 4 Jun 2004, 06:28   #49
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Re: [DISCUSS] "Inofficial rules for PA politics"

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Unread 4 Jun 2004, 08:39   #50
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Re: [DISCUSS] "Inofficial rules for PA politics"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadar
With this proposal, wouldn't it be a huge advantage to be #2 when protecion mode runs out?
I assume that there would be some agreement about how far the #1 allaince has to be ahead before others gang up to attack them? If the top3 is very close, the alliances #4 - #10 shouldn't cooperate with #1, #2 or #3 at all, untill the #1 outgrows #2 and #3. Such a "limit" would probably have to be roidbased, since score/value can be manipulated too easy by stockpiling.
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