Etd pick their own ships

[Gerbie2]

When I look at the Eitraides race I recognize a way to allow people more choice in the ships they would want to use and in designing their own fleet.

Most of the Eitraides ships are just weaker clones of ships from other races:
Merchant – Phantom
Voyager – Beetle
Vendor – Bomber (without cloak)
Ranger – Unique!
Dealer – Chimera
Investor – Syren
Tycoon – Unique!
Broker – Wyvern (but Emp)
Rambler – Mosquito (improved!)
Baliff – Leviathan
Liquidator – Behemoth

What if we gave the Eitraides race the possibility to make a selection of all ships that exist? Ofc. there would have to be a price for the ability to pick the best ships of every race: all ships should cost ~20% extra to build. (Not like the Rambler which is actually much better than the Mosquito for some dark reason.)
There would have to be some rules for this though:
1. no more than 2 ships in each class
2. 2 podtypes of different class
3. 1 structure killer in another class than the pods
4. at least 1 emp, 1 cloak, 1 steal and 2 normal ships (of which 1 Terran ship)
5. all classes have to be targetted at least once

This won’t be a race for the new players to choose. But I’d love to see what this could bring in the game. We could see some surprising fleet combinations show up.

[Tietäjä]

Well.

A zero losser against all pod types (6 ships).
Two good ships for an attack fleet, and one pod.

Voila.

[Mzyxptlk]

Yeah. Keiz hit the nail on the head. Shit idea.

[Talin]

Yeah, it's a pretty bad idea indeed.

But I would so like to be able to do that!

[Gerbie2]

If you look at the current stat, then that would be:
Thief - Fi
Phoenix - Co
? - Fr (Harpy vs. Xan, Roach vs. Zik, or will you pick both?)
Rogue - De
? - Cr (Scarabs I guess is most efficient)
Scorpion - Bs

There's always a way to punch through anything. Don't forget you need over 20% more roids before you can afford the same amount of ships as others. People would be willing to think creative to get through:
Xan fi/co combo might be able to punch through. Or Co/Fr. Terran Fr/De or Cr/Bs. Cath Co/Fr or a large Cr fleet. Zik: large Fr fleet or something nice you stole.

Which 2 good ships for attack? Would you use any of the ships you also use for defence for attack?
If you pick one class of attack ship, you make it easier to defend than if you have a choice between two types (for instance fi/co or fr/de; perhaps even making a combo with two classes, targetting every possible type of defence ship).
Personally I like low eta fleets. That could be a beetle/phoenix/mosquito fleet, to which I'd like to add a fi fleet (but harpies don't seem very usefull for attacks). Frigs could be nice too (Thief/Black widow/Vampire). On the other hand an attack fleet you could steal with would also be nice (should I use the Rogue/Roach combo for that?).
O, the possibilities.

[Tietäjä]

Let's see. I will assume this will effectively abolish eitrades ships as they currently stand.

For a frigate fleet, a combination of nightmares and thieves is a solid one. This lets us pummel through pretty much everything (with no tycoon around). We need a frigate pod. The choice between the privateer and the vampyre is a trivial one - pods can hit cheap roids by damage, so we'll go with the armor one. We've dealt with fighters (zero-loss) and corvettes (nightmares fire before bombers so there's no ability to gnaw down us on that side, either).

Our next fleet piece will be a defensive one. We'll pick Dragon (for anticruiser) and Scorpion (to shut out battleship incomings). Both have highish EMP resistance (just 105% and 111% stuns from tarants), and they'll shut down a lot of incomings, given that cathaars are forced to choose between scorpion and tarantula anyways, which weighs down the tarant. Now we have anti-cruisers and anti-battleships sorted.

With the optimal flak theory, there are two solutions to this. One will rely on initiative and zero-loss (roach and rogue), the other will be more flexible (banshee and harpy). I'll opt banshee and harpy, for it provides a zero-loss against the pesky xandathrii frigates, and the banshee fires before both anti-fighter destroyers, anyways.

Let's see.
Banshee - Fighter > Destroyer
Harpy - Fighter > Frigate
Thief - Frigate > Fighter
Nightmare - Frigate > Corvette
Dragon - Battleship > Cruiser
Scorpion - Battleship > Battleship

We have a brilliant alliance defence fleet (banshee and harpy), a solid attack fleets that pretty much hits it (the frigates), and a loose fleet for missing parts of the self-defence (battleships). We still have a pod and a pair of ships to pick. Do I have to?

Well. The complementary corsair-viper fleet for the best ability to collect ships for our primary attack fleet. For trivial purposes, let's pick the corvette pod to accompany the fleetcatch fleet.

Revised:

Banshee - Fighter > Destroyer (fires before either DE fleet)
Harpy - Fighter > Frigate (zero-loss against xandathrii FR)
Corsair - Corvette > Frigate (to steal FR, shadows maybe)
Viper - Corvette > Frigate (to accompany the FR stealers)
Thief - Frigate > Fighter (zero-loss against xandathrii FI)
Nightmare - Frigate > Corvette (superior attack ship)
Dragon - Battleship > Cruiser (high-resistance defence ship)
Scorpion - Battleship > Battleship (zero-loss against terran BS)

This gives us with broad options. First, we're completely immune to the most annoying of the incomings - the xandathrii. It doesn't take a huge investment to the harpies to prevent, so we're off light there. A cut of banshees will be enough to see all destroyer incomings off too. To prevent zikonian frigates, we have the viper (to stun 139%-156%), and the corsair to pair it with (to steal frigates for our attack fleet). We're very hard for corvettes too - the our only real attack fleet fields an anti-corvette. Talking of which, we can practically attack any race with the attack fleet - with cathaars, we just need to plunge through flak (maybe we can steal some shadows). Then we have dragons and scorpions to reduce cruiser incomings and to completely stop battleship incomings.

Whoa. I'll take the -20% penalty, thank you.

edit. I seriously hope I bashed it hard enough to elaborate why -not-. Let me do it a bit more.

Xan fi/co combo might be able to punch through. Or Co/Fr. Terran Fr/De or Cr/Bs. Cath Co/Fr or a large Cr fleet. Zik: large Fr fleet or something nice you stole.

Xan fighter/corvette combination? Hardly. They will have to crunch through my nightmares first, and after that, their bombers get their guns at my powerful thieves. I probably don't need to comment on the terran frigate/destroyer combination. My dragons will give their share any syrens that attempt to to destroy my scorpions. You'll be looking at handsome losses before you get to take any shots. Large cathaar cruiser fleet - yes. That's a definate issue. But a neglible one, really. Tiny stuff. Because of the fact that the cathaar CR targets everything that targets it, and has initiative 2, it will be able to get through anything with no losses granted it's large enough. A large zikonian frigate fleet can do it, too - the vipers are there to hedge those off a little. If you're feeling particularily unsecure, you could just swap in bombers for either corvette. That'll deal with zikonian frigates. The same principle of paranoia also applies to swapping the remaining corvette for phoenixes to stop cathaar corvettes.

4. at least 1 emp, 1 cloak, 1 steal and 2 normal ships (of which 1 Terran ship)

Granted, this will limit swapping out the corvettes. Leaves you with being able to trade dragon for marauder (hence freeing the corsair for bomber or phoenix). Alternatively, nightmare for black widow (freeing the viper for bomber or phoenix). (de facto, nightmare and viper swapping for black widow and bomber for superior anti-corvette and anti-(zikonian)frigate).

[BADA]

Adapt the idea.

Let everyone choose their own
ships.

Put all the ships into classes (Attk/Def etc) with a value point against them.

You are given so many points to spend and you can spend so many points in each class. You have to have a minimum of one or two out of each class.

Think this is a good idea in pricipal

[Tietäjä]

Yeah. Adapt the idea to where everyone chooses their own ships, in which case it really becomes an idea already represented, just in a different aspect. The return of the technology tree in a way that it creates a choice between different ships is around.

[furball]

Originally Posted by BADA

Adapt the idea.

Let everyone choose their own
ships.

Put all the ships into classes (Attk/Def etc) with a value point against them.

You are given so many points to spend and you can spend so many points in each class. You have to have a minimum of one or two out of each class.

Think this is a good idea in pricipal

We played around a bit with the thread's initial concept (in jest) in Round 9.5ish on the Strategy forum - and making up 'the perfect fleet' was fun if nothing else.


I'll simply say that it's a bad idea to allow any race to pick and choose its ships, since you'll just end up with super-fleets as envisaged by Keizari. BA's suggestion of value points, as inspired by RPG games, is insufficient to solve this since there will still remain 'super-fleets' created by particular combinations of ships that everyone will go for. It is impossible to avoid this if you allow people to choose their ships.


To be honest I think we have a fairly happy medium at the moment - players can choose a race along with the characteristics/attributes of that race, but they can't control the negative factors of that race.

[Tomkat]

A Fantasy Football style version of this might be interesting/fun, where people can decide which ships they have but obviously some are much better than others, so you can only have a few "superships" at the expense of having some crappy ones.

[Gerbie2]

Originally Posted by Tietäjä

For a frigate fleet, a combination of nightmares and thieves is a solid one. This lets us pummel through pretty much everything (with no tycoon around). We need a frigate pod. The choice between the privateer and the vampyre is a trivial one - pods can hit cheap roids by damage, so we'll go with the armor one. We've dealt with fighters (zero-loss) and corvettes (nightmares fire before bombers so there's no ability to gnaw down us on that side, either).

Our next fleet piece will be a defensive one. We'll pick Dragon (for anticruiser) and Scorpion (to shut out battleship incomings). Both have highish EMP resistance (just 105% and 111% stuns from tarants), and they'll shut down a lot of incomings, given that cathaars are forced to choose between scorpion and tarantula anyways, which weighs down the tarant. Now we have anti-cruisers and anti-battleships sorted.
...
Banshee - Fighter > Destroyer (fires before either DE fleet)
Harpy - Fighter > Frigate (zero-loss against xandathrii FR)
Corsair - Corvette > Frigate (to steal FR, shadows maybe)
Viper - Corvette > Frigate (to accompany the FR stealers)
Thief - Frigate > Fighter (zero-loss against xandathrii FI)
Nightmare - Frigate > Corvette (superior attack ship)
Dragon - Battleship > Cruiser (high-resistance defence ship)
Scorpion - Battleship > Battleship (zero-loss against terran BS)

I do like your fleet, but it just shows there's great freedom in what you can pick.
I think you've got yourself well covered against most races and ship classes. I do think the anti-co is your weak side. The Thief is worse emp flak for the Nightmare than the Shadow. And the Nightmare's emp resistance is far from great.

Other shipclasses appear to be sufficiently covered, but could get a weak spot if you decide to put a heavy focus on your Fr fleet.

Deviding your anti-fr over three shiptypes might not be the smartest thing to do against a zik. A big zik (bigger than you) with a lot of frigates might get through. Not sure how many Vipers you plan to build, but I doubt you'll have enough to make all that much difference. Thiefs and Cutters will eat away much of your other defences before they get a chance to do anything. If you defend you die and he still gets roids.
A Terran might also just hope to scare you with his De (cheap armor). If you defend, you die and he still gets roids (I think it's worth the gamble unless you focus on the banshee heavily). You'll need to sink a significant amount of your scarce resources in those banshees. (Same with anti-Cr and Bs: you need to sink a significant amount of your scarce resources if you want to protect yourself against everything.)

[Tietäjä]

Originally Posted by Gerbie2

I do like your fleet, but it just shows there's great freedom in what you can pick.
I think you've got yourself well covered against most races and ship classes. I do think the anti-co is your weak side. The Thief is worse emp flak for the Nightmare than the Shadow. And the Nightmare's emp resistance is far from great.

Change it to black widow and you have a very brilliant anti-corvette.

Deviding your anti-fr over three shiptypes might not be the smartest thing to do against a zik. A big zik (bigger than you) with a lot of frigates might get through.

No matter how you design your fleet, a bigger planet with a very focused fleet will get through. (this applies to terran destroyers, cathaar cruisers, and your neighbour's dog). Arguing that "LOL HAHA IF HE HAS SHITLOAD OF DIS AND DAT HE GETZ THRU" is such an idiotic argument I just can't bear to elaborate you why the given fleet composition is even with a 20% penalty to
production costs by far superior to any race's default fleet. You failing to notice things like the three anti-frigates being trivial (obviously, the defensively optimal form is reached with black widow-bomber instead of nightmare-viper, and at that point zikonian frigates are in for inevitable losses too), ah well.

Oh, please.

If you defend you die and he still gets roids

This just elaborates your cunning. You're saying "You die", and ignoring the fact that the terran is going in for a beating for those roids too. And if you take a look at the charts, you'll realize that cathaar corvette and terran destroyer fleets aren't the first fleets you should cry your eyes out being concerned about. (the fleets you should be concenred about in these setups are likes of nightmare/black widow & thief, which are just plain devastating).

[bwtmc]

Unless the game's changed dramatically.. then these players would derive another benefit from picking their ships. If one attacked me and I couldn't scan him, I'd have almost no idea what was coming at me. For the other races I'd have a very good idea.

Without extensive (and by this I mean different) testing, there's no way the above could be slotted in to the current game. That's not to say you couldn't bring an element of choice into etd. Maybe give them two different fleet options and start from there.

[SpookyVince]

With a bit of luck and talent, an Eitrades can have ALL ships, just as a zik, except it takes more stealing...

Their Rangers steal BS. That's one.
With Marauders (BS) you can steal CR. That's 2.
With Rogues (CR), you can steal DE. That's 3.
With Buccaneers (DE), you can steal FI. That's 4.
With Cutlasses (FI), you can steal CO. That's 5.
With Corsairs (CO), you can steal FR. And that's 6.

All classes, just like a zik.

Well, I reckon it would need quite some luck and talent, and even probably some help... But it IS possible!

[Gerbie2]

Originally Posted by SpookyVince

With a bit of luck and talent, an Eitrades can have ALL ships, just as a zik, except it takes more stealing...

Their Rangers steal BS. That's one.
With Marauders (BS) you can steal CR. That's 2.
With Rogues (CR), you can steal DE. That's 3.
With Buccaneers (DE), you can steal FI. That's 4.
With Cutlasses (FI), you can steal CO. That's 5.
With Corsairs (CO), you can steal FR. And that's 6.

All classes, just like a zik.

Well, I reckon it would need quite some luck and talent, and even probably some help... But it IS possible!

I heared Quickstrike was trying that. I think he was already at Cutlasses a few days ago.

[General Martok]

Originally Posted by Gerbie2

I heared Quickstrike was trying that. I think he was already at Cutlasses a few days ago.

Not just yet. He has 19 different shiptypes atm, including 50k corsairs though.