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Unread 25 Jul 2004, 23:32   #1
Kal
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possible pre-launch alterations

many have said that prelaunch ruins the game, but many other s have said it helps new players and thoose less active. So I have a kind of compromise. What if we only allow one fleet top be prelaunched at a time. This would effectivly mean anyone wanting to do really well would have to stay up really later, but that the rest of us could still do moderatly well.

Opinions are as allways welcomed.
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Unread 25 Jul 2004, 23:36   #2
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Re: possible pre-launch alterations

I like the idea...happy medium
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Unread 25 Jul 2004, 23:38   #3
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Re: possible pre-launch alterations

i think pre launch is nice

because i can launch and go to sleep otherwise i have to stay up all night
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Unread 25 Jul 2004, 23:39   #4
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Re: possible pre-launch alterations

i dont see why pre-launched would be hated..it can be used by both new players, and as tactic for advanced players - fake attacks (JGP) etc..
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Unread 25 Jul 2004, 23:41   #5
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Re: possible pre-launch alterations

since prelaunch was introduced alliances have found it harder to defend as well, this would at least make some people stay up.

Take round 10 and 10.5 for example i rarely stayed up late and yet ended up as a top planet becuase i was either the bc organising the attacks or becuase i knew them. This would level the playing field a little, make the so called top players put a bit of effort in.
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Unread 25 Jul 2004, 23:41   #6
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Re: possible pre-launch alterations

I think prelaunched is good, makes it a lot easier for those less dedicated and those on a tight schedule to actually be able to play without having to wake up at strange times and so on.
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Unread 25 Jul 2004, 23:42   #7
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Re: possible pre-launch alterations

ye but iam online whole day i have to sleep to and work is at night most of the time
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Unread 25 Jul 2004, 23:42   #8
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Re: possible pre-launch alterations

I kinda like it as it is.. makes it much easier for new players to get into the whole PA system without having to sacrifice most of their social life..
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Unread 25 Jul 2004, 23:42   #9
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Re: possible pre-launch alterations

Preferrably I want it removed.
IF it was to stay, make a max 2 or 3 tick prelaunch possible. or make it only possible on def. Not attack.

oh, and maybe have a preset notice or scan. 1 hour in front of actual launch or something...I know jgp shows preset fleet, make it show exactly eta too plz? like 7+3 instead of 7...

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Unread 25 Jul 2004, 23:43   #10
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Re: possible pre-launch alterations

i agree i dont really see the problem with pre-launch

maybe if the amount of ticks before launch could be reduced, say a limit of +6 ticks

^^ beat me to it =(
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Unread 25 Jul 2004, 23:43   #11
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Re: possible pre-launch alterations

That can be problematic with the variable ETA's where defence is concerned (e.g. some def is ETA 8 with the attacker at 9) since most people tend to prelaunch with +1 out of convienience, and esp on the longball ETA's it means you don't have to sit round the computer waiting to launch the def fleets (would you want to sit there and wait 5 hours to launch an ETA 7 def fleet on an ETA 12 attacker?).

What I would be more keen on seeing is prelaunch removed for attack orders if that is possible, and have prelaunch defence ETA shortened to a maximum of 5 ticks.

Either that or have prelaunch reduced to 3 ticks max across the board.

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Unread 25 Jul 2004, 23:44   #12
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Thumbs up Re: possible pre-launch alterations

onley on defence is a nice ideeer
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Unread 25 Jul 2004, 23:44   #13
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Re: possible pre-launch alterations

how about any number of defensive fleets can be prelaunched at any given time, but only a single attacking fleet.

note I like prelaunch as well, and my system does allow people to sleep, just not if they want to be top 50 or so.
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Unread 25 Jul 2004, 23:46   #14
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Re: possible pre-launch alterations

hmmm... could be an idear
but i think it should always be possible to preset defence
if i get online in the mornin i check before work and if i see gal incommin at eta 9 i cant defend cause i cant get on when at work
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Unread 25 Jul 2004, 23:56   #15
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Re: possible pre-launch alterations

to launch an attack fleet you need to be online for what? 1 minute? I dont see the problem. Remove pre-launch on attack, add pre-recall for recalls eta 2 and over (ie. no pre-recall for eta 1) and keep pre-launch for anything under 5 ticks on defence.
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Unread 25 Jul 2004, 23:57   #16
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Re: possible pre-launch alterations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
how about any number of defensive fleets can be prelaunched at any given time, but only a single attacking fleet.
Alot of people only attack with one fleet anyway, even the "elite" people.
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Unread 26 Jul 2004, 00:06   #17
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Thumbs up Re: possible pre-launch alterations

keep it for defence
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Unread 26 Jul 2004, 00:19   #18
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Re: possible pre-launch alterations

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Originally Posted by Fyodor
I like the idea...happy medium
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Unread 26 Jul 2004, 00:23   #19
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Re: possible pre-launch alterations

Yea, s'pose I could do with that.

However, I do like teh idea of prelaunch as a way to get newer players into teh game. I get up about 3.30am my time most mornings now, and watch over the 4am tick (I go to bed just after midnight usually)... So if needed I could still be online to launch, I'm not just bitching about possibly having the easy way taken away!
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Unread 26 Jul 2004, 01:04   #20
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Re: possible pre-launch alterations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
how about any number of defensive fleets can be prelaunched at any given time, but only a single attacking fleet.

note I like prelaunch as well, and my system does allow people to sleep, just not if they want to be top 50 or so.
That works, if it's technically feasible that would be a pretty ideal option. Personally I think prelaunch still needs to be limited to +5 maximum anyways, but this would be a good step in the right direction.

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Unread 26 Jul 2004, 11:24   #21
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Re: possible pre-launch alterations

imo if they guy who's defending for a couple of hours has to get up nights, i don't think it's any less then fair for the attacker to wake up for a minute and actually send the attack.

personally i think launching at nights is one of the advantages of being an active player. is it really needed to make sure all those sorts of extra efforts high ranked players put in to be made useless?

top players just work harder for their account... imo they deserve some bonusses.. if you don't wanna be active at night.. then attack at daytime. but it's not fair at all to roid people blind while you don't have to do anything for it.
personally i say just people should be able to set 1 or 2 ticks prelaunch on def only.
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Unread 26 Jul 2004, 12:02   #22
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Re: possible pre-launch alterations

great plan guys...

everyone says that pa needs more players. so why don't we suggest things that make it even harder for 'normal' people to play. pure genius!

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Unread 26 Jul 2004, 12:41   #23
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Re: possible pre-launch alterations

I agree with mist, pre launch is something that has made the game easier for those who cant play the game in a hardcore fashion. Its also a great feature for smaller alliances as it brings them up a level, they can arrange attacks full in the knowledge that they dont have to launch at the peak times just to ensure enough people take part to cover. They can now pull off successful attacks and this makes them more competative thus gives lesser players a better enviorment to play in thus more likly to keep playing and to pay.

Removal of the pre launch or a major reduction in is just going to make it even harder for those at the lower end will no doubt see many of the newly aquired players drift away as the game starts moving back towards the "you can only have fun if your in a top alliance" situation which is something that we have been moving away from.

Also what exactly is the problem with big alliances (after all its not small alliances whom this is a problem for because the small alliance players are the ones whom take advantage of the system the most which indicates they wouldnt be around to defend anyway) struggling to get defence, shouldnt we be wanting to make winning harder while surviving easier. It simply means that the big alliances have that extra chink in their armour which makes them that little bit more beatable which reduces the domination they can show
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Unread 26 Jul 2004, 17:55   #24
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Re: possible pre-launch alterations

tbh wakey and mist, although i have been agreeing with u more and more recently i think though your points are valid, you are wrong. My compromise suggestions still allows 1 single attack on prelaunch per day - i'm sure u would be quite happy wakey if your members actually attacked daily on prelaunch - as someone saud earlier a lot of people only use 1 attack fleet anyway. What this realy does is limit advanced tactics that top players might use and thus indirectly does level the playing field. Yes this solution also makes it harder for thoose really active during the day and inacitve at night, but they can allways have one middle of night attack on prelaunch and one earlier attack not on prelaunch.
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Unread 26 Jul 2004, 18:50   #25
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Re: possible pre-launch alterations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
My compromise suggestions still allows 1 single attack on prelaunch per day - i'm sure u would be quite happy wakey if your members actually attacked daily on prelaunch - as someone saud earlier a lot of people only use 1 attack fleet anyway. What this realy does is limit advanced tactics that top players might use and thus indirectly does level the playing field.
Your solution means less active players cant launch a scouter fleet ahead of their main fleet, or a 2 fleet combination with 1 fleet for destroying ships and the other a roiding fleet. Basically you reduce the chances of pre-launchers having a decent round, thus putting the big alliances back in the driving seat.
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Unread 26 Jul 2004, 19:46   #26
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Re: possible pre-launch alterations

why not make a screen for alliance HC/BC to just control all ships in an alliance?

it you're gonna make it easy as fk for everyone, just do it properly atleast. saves us all alot of effort and seeing as you are suggesting things that remove HUGE parts of pa's gameplay (which has been withOUT prelaunch for YEARS and YEARS) prelaunch is the most crap 'invention' ever to be made to this game imo.

if you can't do well without it, you should get more active or don't expect to be a top planet.
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Unread 26 Jul 2004, 20:11   #27
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Re: possible pre-launch alterations

The lesser active players arent on the whole expecting to be a top planet, you may get a few disalussioned fools who expect to win while being inactive BUT they are few and far between. When people talk about lesser active people having good rounds they arent talking about top 100 or even top 500 but a round where they can have fun by allowing them to regain their roids by being able to take part in attacks that dont get called off due to having to launch at the worst possible times. Those players and alliances whom are active will always come out on top but pre launch helps narrow the gap slightly making the game more comepetavive.

Pre-launch DOES NOT allow poor inactive players to 'win' plain and simple. The one thing that allows this to be the case is your alliance.
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Unread 26 Jul 2004, 20:26   #28
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Re: possible pre-launch alterations

Make pre-launched attack fleets visible one tick before they actually launch?

I'm not sure I agree with removing it altogether - it does give less active players a chance to compete more effectively.
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Unread 26 Jul 2004, 23:57   #29
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Re: possible pre-launch alterations

Quote:
Originally Posted by JC
Your solution means less active players cant launch a scouter fleet ahead of their main fleet, or a 2 fleet combination with 1 fleet for destroying ships and the other a roiding fleet. Basically you reduce the chances of pre-launchers having a decent round, thus putting the big alliances back in the driving seat.
Tbh prelaunchers or people who use it near exclusively should not BE having a decent round. If you can't be bothered to invest any significant time or effort then you should be penalised for that fact.

Rob came up with the right idea imo... Attack prelaunches should be visible one tick ahead of their ACTUAL launch (so e.g. right now if you launch ETA 10, then it's visible on the overview at ETA9, with prelaunch it would be visible from ETA 10). Either that or go back to the old system whereby a fleet was visible on gal overview the moment the order is put through, however, if that was applied then prelaunch delay should not be visible, the fact that it's there is warning enough.

That and limiting prelaunch down to +5 at the absolute most (ETA researches +1 hour lag time on top) would be an acceptable compromise to the problem.

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Unread 27 Jul 2004, 01:25   #30
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Re: possible pre-launch alterations

prelaunch is the best thing that happend to PA!!!

gives normal players some more sleep and pro-players dont use it cuz their targets use jumpgateprobes on their own anyway.....


leave it as it is!!
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Unread 27 Jul 2004, 02:10   #31
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Re: possible pre-launch alterations

Pro-players do use it. It puts significant advantage in the hands of the attacker - you can pre-launch your fleet, go to bed, and wake up hours after launch. The defenders, on the other hand, need to be online and awake at 3am in the morning to get defence.
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Unread 27 Jul 2004, 03:00   #32
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Re: possible pre-launch alterations

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
Pro-players do use it. It puts significant advantage in the hands of the attacker - you can pre-launch your fleet, go to bed, and wake up hours after launch. The defenders, on the other hand, need to be online and awake at 3am in the morning to get defence.
And therein lies the problem.

Defenders cannot prelaunch defence, and attackers can schedule mass attacks based on prelaunches, knowing full well that the targets are going to have difficulties defending. Even if attacks come in later the target ally or planet is going to be operating under pressure.

So something needs to be done to redress the balance. No prelaunch for various reasons is almost as bad as the current situation, it shifts the balance too far the other way.

I would say limiting prelaunch for attacks to ONE fleetslot, with a maximum limit on any prelaunch of +5 would be the best way to go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by genosse27
prelaunch is the best thing that happend to PA!!!

gives normal players some more sleep and pro-players dont use it cuz their targets use jumpgateprobes on their own anyway.....
It gives attackers far too potent a tool. This needs to be redressed. This isn't purely about activity, although that is an element of the equation.

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Unread 27 Jul 2004, 09:32   #33
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Re: possible pre-launch alterations

tbh ilove prelaunch it makes it possible for less actiove players to attack aswel, it also has a bad side, noone comes online in the4 night to chekc for incomings this makes thos eplanets more vunarable. People who do not prelaucnh stil have the advantage to see if they have incomings in the night. The prelaunch people do not and have a bigger change on being roided. i think the system is fair enough u cnat win a round when u only prelaunch, u can play when u prelaunch and have fun and taht last thing is what pa is about
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Unread 27 Jul 2004, 11:04   #34
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Re: possible pre-launch alterations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
tbh wakey and mist, although i have been agreeing with u more and more recently i think though your points are valid, you are wrong. My compromise suggestions still allows 1 single attack on prelaunch per day - i'm sure u would be quite happy wakey if your members actually attacked daily on prelaunch - as someone saud earlier a lot of people only use 1 attack fleet anyway. What this realy does is limit advanced tactics that top players might use and thus indirectly does level the playing field. Yes this solution also makes it harder for thoose really active during the day and inacitve at night, but they can allways have one middle of night attack on prelaunch and one earlier attack not on prelaunch.
if they're only going to use it once, regardless of whether it's limited or not, why limit it?

c+, could do better

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Unread 27 Jul 2004, 12:15   #35
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Re: possible pre-launch alterations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeltje
tbh ilove prelaunch it makes it possible for less actiove players to attack aswel, it also has a bad side, noone comes online in the4 night to chekc for incomings this makes thos eplanets more vunarable. People who do not prelaucnh stil have the advantage to see if they have incomings in the night. The prelaunch people do not and have a bigger change on being roided. i think the system is fair enough u cnat win a round when u only prelaunch, u can play when u prelaunch and have fun and taht last thing is what pa is about
You miss the point...

You can do a significant level of damage to an alliance if you can get the majority of your members to set their prelaunches up in a specific manner. This means that activity becomes utterly seperated from the attack side, and means the defence can be stretched by a bunch of near inactive players unless you killfleet the planets in question (not likely). Since defenders MUST be up to counter the incommings or to try and slow them down, it tips the balance in the attackers favour by allowing them to maintain pressure at a much lower "human" cost than the defenders.

Certain tactics aren't available to prelaunchers, but in the numbers that people could prelaunch in it would be irrelevant. Hence limiters are needed on the prelaunch system.

Nova
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Unread 27 Jul 2004, 18:35   #36
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Re: possible pre-launch alterations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacknova
You miss the point...

You can do a significant level of damage to an alliance if you can get the majority of your members to set their prelaunches up in a specific manner. This means that activity becomes utterly seperated from the attack side, and means the defence can be stretched by a bunch of near inactive players unless you killfleet the planets in question (not likely). Since defenders MUST be up to counter the incommings or to try and slow them down, it tips the balance in the attackers favour by allowing them to maintain pressure at a much lower "human" cost than the defenders.

Certain tactics aren't available to prelaunchers, but in the numbers that people could prelaunch in it would be irrelevant. Hence limiters are needed on the prelaunch system.

Nova
Right, so it tips the balance in the favour of the attackers. This has lead to an offensive game without too much stagnation. Why is that bad?
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Unread 27 Jul 2004, 19:44   #37
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Re: possible pre-launch alterations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacknova
You miss the point...

You can do a significant level of damage to an alliance if you can get the majority of your members to set their prelaunches up in a specific manner. This means that activity becomes utterly seperated from the attack side, and means the defence can be stretched by a bunch of near inactive players unless you killfleet the planets in question (not likely). Since defenders MUST be up to counter the incommings or to try and slow them down, it tips the balance in the attackers favour by allowing them to maintain pressure at a much lower "human" cost than the defenders.

Certain tactics aren't available to prelaunchers, but in the numbers that people could prelaunch in it would be irrelevant. Hence limiters are needed on the prelaunch system.

Nova
I'm with Gerbie here. I like a fluid roidstream.

What I think is worth considering is making prelaunches appear on jp scans more clear. So not

Jumpgate scan on 1:1:1
some fleet 2:2:2 9

but

Jumpgate scan on 1:1:1
some fleet 2:2:2 9+3

so then you know when he comes, and you can prelaunch defence if you want. weakens the effect of prelaunch, but keeps it relatively effective for attacking mediocre planets who don't jp themselves all the time. Anything limiting prelaunch further is not in the best interest of the majority of the players, the "I want to have fun and a life" players, even if the die-harders don't like that.
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Unread 27 Jul 2004, 19:47   #38
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Re: possible pre-launch alterations

The game set at the moment is a bit pro-attacking at the moment, it`s easy to grab roids. But, one def fleet can easily turn those roids very expensive. Not unattainable but expensive. That is a very big difference from older stats of PA. PA is a game with fluid attacking and lots of roids changing owners, it`s nothing but damn fun. (and frustration when you have to recall your attacks day after day because of ****ing clippers )
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Unread 27 Jul 2004, 19:58   #39
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Re: possible pre-launch alterations

Quote:
Originally Posted by _ryzekiel_
The game set at the moment is a bit pro-attacking at the moment, it`s easy to grab roids. But, one def fleet can easily turn those roids very expensive. Not unattainable but expensive. That is a very big difference from older stats of PA. PA is a game with fluid attacking and lots of roids changing owners, it`s nothing but damn fun. (and frustration when you have to recall your attacks day after day because of ****ing clippers )
Indeed. The gameplay this round is thoroughly enjoyable, even if a little pro-attacking. Prelaunch is part of the fun, means all the small players and small alliances can also roid the big players/alliances.
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Unread 27 Jul 2004, 21:08   #40
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Re: possible pre-launch alterations

*Sigh* Jerome... if you get enough idiots launching pegs / lancers en masse then it doesn't matter what happens, you have a "sinkhole" defence whereby the defenders pay just as heavily because of the attackers laziness and lack of tactical skill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerbie
Right, so it tips the balance in the favour of the attackers. This has lead to an offensive game without too much stagnation. Why is that bad?
It seperates Attacks from activity, but fails to seperate Defence from activity...

The attacker doesn't need to stay up till whatever time to launch their attack, the defenders however are forced into a situation whereby they MUST stay up because the prelaunch system too heavily tips favour to the attackers. Even then if used correctly prelaunch can set up offensive strikes which are impossible or near impossible to defend.

Some steps need to be implemented, or is the idea of a hard coded autolaunching of the appropriate defense when your prelaunched attack starts moving alright with you?

Hell, let's go all the way and have the planets fully automated, why even involve the players

I am not UTTERLY against prelaunch, I would however make steps to redress the balance so it's use in an offensive capacity is a little less extreme. Single fleet prelaunching either way would be perfect (so less actives still have that option but can't abuse it), or failing that single offensive fleet prelaunching would be a good compromise and certainly a better situation than what we have atm.

Nova
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Unread 27 Jul 2004, 21:14   #41
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Re: possible pre-launch alterations

hey BN
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Unread 27 Jul 2004, 23:54   #42
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Re: possible pre-launch alterations

TSM, long time no see

Drop by the NG irc server... haven't seen you around in a while

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Unread 28 Jul 2004, 00:56   #43
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Re: possible pre-launch alterations

BN - All that does is, the best will be those who a] get jgp`s on themselves at 1:00 or whatever game time and b] those who are active enough to defend each other to keep their roids in addition to continue the fluid attacking motion of the game.


[edit] restrictions of pre-launching would be fine imo, as long as they are such that a] you can`t pre0launch for than 6hrs or b] you can`t pre-launch at a target which already has x amount of pre-launched hostile and friendly fleets at it c] you can`t pre-launch more than 1 fleet of your own.

Last edited by _ryzekiel_; 28 Jul 2004 at 01:02.
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Unread 28 Jul 2004, 01:07   #44
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Re: possible pre-launch alterations

Quote:
Originally Posted by _ryzekiel_
BN - All that does is, the best will be those who a] get jgp`s on themselves at 1:00 or whatever game time and b] those who are active enough to defend each other to keep their roids in addition to continue the fluid attacking motion of the game.


[edit] restrictions of pre-launching would be fine imo, as long as they are such that a] you can`t pre0launch for than 6hrs or b] you can`t pre-launch at a target which already has x amount of pre-launched hostile and friendly fleets at it c] you can`t pre-launch more than 1 fleet of your own.
Prelaunching if used correctly can make it impossible for the alliance to defend, all you need is a couple of midsized xans and terrans to PL for the same tick on a target and the odds of them being able to raise a valid form of defence is minimal to none.

This bit I think we can agree on.

a] Well, I would want it down to +5 or +4 at the most, that way people can't stagger their attacks too far ahead, and set up multiwave attacks with ease.

b] Nice idea, probably too complex, and then tilts the favour towards the "big fleet bash" strategy, which doesn't help.

c] Probably the best solution overall, single fleet HAS the prelaunch ability, the other 2 don't.

Nova
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Unread 29 Jul 2004, 15:23   #45
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Re: possible pre-launch alterations

Oh no... the small alliances have a chance to roid bigger ones, letīs change this feature at once!
Inactive alliances will hardly ever have the organisation to do this, and ofc they wont be able to hold on to the roids for sure. Ofc itīs annoying to be #1 alliance and still lose roids, because this was not possible in old pa (mostly). Fact is, it makes the game more exciting, and then you get complaints? I think some people should stop looking at roid losses as the end of the world and just go out and take them back
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Unread 29 Jul 2004, 16:18   #46
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Re: possible pre-launch alterations

tbh i agree with blacknova and martok kinda.

if you keep prelaunch.. make sure it says WHEN it'll be launched for real. else it'll only get harder.. and that goes twice as bad for newbs then for 'pro' players.

secondly if you do make sure it's launched 1 tick earlier... make sure the overview or whatever says it's prelaunched aswell... else it'll just work as a perfect BS fake or something... which is kinda lame again.

if you give all the newbs the prelaunch option, they'll just get roided harder as they won't be up AT ALL at nights anymore, making it harder for the somewhat smaller alliances alltogether.

people say stuff about that the current round is enjoyable in terms of gameplay, that however has nothing to do with prelaunching... but with the fact there's only 1 block(attackpact) really and not just 2 or 3 sides who just keep bashing and bashing.

loads of reasons really why it's a bad feature. and if it's not a bad feature, the way it is implemented ATM sure as hell is VERY bad.
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