the Xand advantage...

[Rukhsta]

i've heard numerous people mentioning that there is some big stat imbalance in favour of the xandathrii. what are they referring to?

[Gerbie]

Xan have nice ships. They are the only one with fi pods and have very powerfull ships with good initiative. This resulted in a lot of Xans at the top.

[Rukhsta]

so it's simply a matter of overpowering your opponents...
thanks

[Snoopeh]

lies xan get shat on by Ter cos pegs piss all over Puls hence no decent anti DE against Ter

[The Real Arfy]

Another aspect of xans that confuses me as to why they are doing so well is that they have no de/cr/bs pods.

All the other races have a 'small' pod and a 'large' pod. The Xan pods can be targetted by 2 ships in each race yet the de/cr pods of the other races can be targetted by just one ship from each race

Yet Xans are doing well.

[mens]

alot of terrans in the universe. very few of them build hydras in addition to gryphons.
a xan with lancers can attack terrans with small losses.
in other words...many good targets for xans with the right fleets.

just my theory

[scotty1234]

would any experienced player care to share what the right xan fleet would be?

[General Martok]

There is no "right fleet". It depends on the target. If you want to attack terrans, build shitloads of lancers.

And mens, ofc. But even if they have hydras, you got those nifty frigates targetting CR

[Melesse]

Originally Posted by mens

alot of terrans in the universe. very few of them build hydras in addition to gryphons.
a xan with lancers can attack terrans with small losses.
in other words...many good targets for xans with the right fleets.

just my theory

On the other hand, lately I've been seeing alot more Hydras. And a Xan with a Bomber heavy fleet can roid those terrans for free too.

Melesse

[mens]

yea I know

[General Martok]

Originally Posted by Melesse

On the other hand, lately I've been seeing alot more Hydras. And a Xan with a Bomber heavy fleet can roid those terrans for free too.

Melesse

post mimicer

[Remy]

Hehe

1 - Syn_Sid made the ship stats
2 - Syn_Sid told his ppl to go all Xan

Coincidence?

[Makhil]

Xan can concentrate their attacks on Terrans. They send a combo of FR and DE (good eta) using their FR pods with FR Bomber and DE Lancer. This way Xan ships fire at terran ships targetting them and they fire first = minimal losses if you pick your target right.
Negative point : if the Terran can get a Cat or Zik def to neutralize the DE Lancer, the Xan Fr can be wiped out by terran Co.

[Linkie]

Xans have two huge advantages, one early-game and one late-game.
The reason for this is because the universe is very terr/xan heavy.

Early game xans easily roid other xans. This is because vsh fires before sentinels so untill xan gets fireblades they're sitting ducks for other xan fi fleets. (In 1up we ended up giving sentinels the nickname "senti-lemmings" as you need lots of them to stop a vsh/dagger attack. And they still die.

Now for the late game they can, as mentioned above, easily roid terrans with lancers/sabres or a lancers/bombers/sabre combo. Again, this is due to their low initiative.

Originally Posted by Remy

1 - Syn_Sid made the ship stats
2 - Syn_Sid told his ppl to go all Xan
Coincidence?

I'm afraid you are wrong, atleast I have never recieved such a message.
However, even if I had recieved such a message I would have to object. A alliance with too many xans are sitting ducks for fi fleets in the early game, and will have a hard time catching up after having huge problems growing before they get Fireblades.

Originally Posted by Snoopeh

lies xan get shat on by Ter cos pegs piss all over Puls hence no decent anti DE against Ter

I'm afraid that's not entirely true. Pegs vs Pulsars is a very messy battle. Usually getting enough pulsars is enough to scare the Terran attacker away, however if the terran decides to land there are heavy losses on both sides.

[waffle]

Originally Posted by Linkie

I'm afraid you are wrong, atleast I have never recieved such a message.
However, even if I had recieved such a message I would have to object. A alliance with too many xans are sitting ducks for fi fleets in the early game, and will have a hard time catching up after having huge problems growing before they get Fireblades.

Were you never in the private channel in the beginning of the round? 1up had many many problems covering fi calls. So stfu, you don't know what you're talking about. Wouldn't have mattered if 1up all went xan or not, you would have had trouble anyways covering fi calls.

What you should be saying is "If 1up all went xan, they would never be able to stop fi calls."

Just cuz you have fireblades doesn't mean any person/people with fi won't attack you.

[Linkie]

Originally Posted by waffle

Were you never in the private channel in the beginning of the round? 1up had many many problems covering fi calls. So stfu, you don't know what you're talking about. Wouldn't have mattered if 1up all went xan or not, you would have had trouble anyways covering fi calls.

What you should be saying is "If 1up all went xan, they would never be able to stop fi calls."

Just cuz you have fireblades doesn't mean any person/people with fi won't attack you.

Yes, I was around, and yes, I'm aware we had problems with covering fi calls. However this doesn't mean Sid told everyone to go xan, even if we do have more xans than any other race. And if we had less xans, believe me, it would have been less anti-fi calls. And if a xan maintains a decent fireblades/roids ratio it does stop fi incs.

[Synthetic_Sid]

Originally Posted by Remy

Hehe

1 - Syn_Sid made the ship stats
2 - Syn_Sid told his ppl to go all Xan

Coincidence?

1 - Not entirely true. I had a large input into the stats, but a lot of the basics (which pod classes each race had, what ships were what class etc) were set before I became involved. I also had no involvement at all after the start of the public beta - and no input into the final ship changes before the round started.

2. Not true. What you refer to is that I told members who wanted advice on which race to go that in a universe full of terrans, xans would do well mid - late round. If the universe had been full of a different race then my advice would have been different. Noone was told to do anything - as is reflected in 1up having a mix of all races.

Coincidence? No.
Fabrication? Yes.

The stats were public (and largely unchanged) for about a month before the round started - including a public beta where everyone could test things out. If people are unable to look at stats and work out what works well vs what (or are stupid enough to view a Beta as a competition to do well, rather than as an exercise in testing and experimenting) then yes, I guess I do have an advantage. But that advantage isn't due to designing the stats - it's due to not being an idiot.

Are xan the best race? Overall they're on a par with, or slightly worse than terrans in my view.
But in a universe with very few caths/ziks xan probably have the edge - due to the prevalence of their favourite racial target.
In a universe that was largely zik (for example) xans would really struggle to get roids.

If you were in the channels for the private betas while i was actively working on the stats, you'd have seen that I was constantly pressurised by xan players that xans were too weak - and needed massively strengthening. If they'd had their way then xans really WOULD be overpowered.

Lots of self-proclaimed experts went around trumpetting how terrans were the best race by a mile - and 40% of players bought into it.

Think of it as a slightly complicated version of paper/scissors/stone. Most of the universe pulically said they were going stone (as shown by race % before ticks started and by the posts on AD). I advised 1up members who asked that if there were a lot of players choosing stone, paper may not be a bad idea.

Anyone who'd looked carefully at the stats and used the public beta to try out things - rather than as an attempt to get an irrelevant rank - could have worked out precisely the same thing. Whether they were involved in designing the stats or not.

[Gerbie]

Originally Posted by Synthetic_Sid

1 - Not entirely true. I had a large input into the stats, but a lot of the basics (which pod classes each race had, what ships were what class etc) were set before I became involved. I also had no involvement at all after the start of the public beta - and no input into the final ship changes before the round started.

2. Not true. What you refer to is that I told members who wanted advice on which race to go that in a universe full of terrans, xans would do well mid - late round. If the universe had been full of a different race then my advice would have been different. Noone was told to do anything - as is reflected in 1up having a mix of all races.

Coincidence? No.
Fabrication? Yes.

The stats were public (and largely unchanged) for about a month before the round started - including a public beta where everyone could test things out. If people are unable to look at stats and work out what works well vs what (or are stupid enough to view a Beta as a competition to do well, rather than as an exercise in testing and experimenting) then yes, I guess I do have an advantage. But that advantage isn't due to designing the stats - it's due to not being an idiot.

The first where stats were made public was in the public beta. As I didn't know the stats well I picked Cathaar. I used the account to test things. Not what ships were good (as this was supposed to change any way), but how the formulae worked. And aparantly that had to be changed. When the game started I had only a vague notion of what ship would target what. I planned on going cathaar untill they tweaked down my favorite Cr pod.

Are xan the best race? Overall they're on a par with, or slightly worse than terrans in my view.
But in a universe with very few caths/ziks xan probably have the edge - due to the prevalence of their favourite racial target.
In a universe that was largely zik (for example) xans would really struggle to get roids.

If you were in the channels for the private betas while i was actively working on the stats, you'd have seen that I was constantly pressurised by xan players that xans were too weak - and needed massively strengthening. If they'd had their way then xans really WOULD be overpowered.

Lots of self-proclaimed experts went around trumpetting how terrans were the best race by a mile - and 40% of players bought into it.

Think of it as a slightly complicated version of paper/scissors/stone. Most of the universe pulically said they were going stone (as shown by race % before ticks started and by the posts on AD). I advised 1up members who asked that if there were a lot of players choosing stone, paper may not be a bad idea.

Anyone who'd looked carefully at the stats and used the public beta to try out things - rather than as an attempt to get an irrelevant rank - could have worked out precisely the same thing. Whether they were involved in designing the stats or not.

I know terran is very strong against cath and zik. I picked them because I experienced that in the beta. I did not know what xan would have to offer. I didn't know what a Lancer was untill they were at my door at low eta (in the real round) and didn't see what they could do after I counted my losses. Don't tell me I could have worked this out between the release of the stats (hours before signup) and the actual start of the game. I did look at the figures. I just didn't see this comming. Most players didn't.
The problem is the stats are imbalanced. I knew that before tickstart. I know you are not the one to blame for that, I just wonder who is.

[General Martok]

Gerbie, the immense advantages of the lancer were already in place in the earliest fase of the Beta. The stats were public in the beta, and barely changed after that (some armour/firepower thinies only afaik). So if you didn't know the stats, it's because you didn't pay enough attention.

quote of my race survey on the private rock forums (about xan):

+ Can roid Terran for free, large amouth of ppl will go terran.

That post was made on May 26th. The round started 4 weeks later.

[Melesse]

Originally Posted by General Martok

post mimicer

Sorry :-X

I just uh, wanted to look intelligent...that's right...intelligent.

I just got excited that I thought I knew something worthwhile, I didn't even scan the rest of the posts.

Melesse

[Sinn]

Originally Posted by Gerbie

Xan have nice ships. They are the only one with fi pods and have very powerfull ships with good initiative. This resulted in a lot of Xans at the top.

A lot of Xans or on top because they were rumored to be the best race, so many people in large alliances picked them, which is a more likely reason they're on top than a lack of balance in stats. If there is one, it's minor at best. The stats are far from perfect but do not give one race a clear benefit over all others (they do give some races an advantage versus one or two other races perhaps, but i dont see how that's a bad thing). Do some battle calcing, you're likely to come up with various fleets for various races that can hit fi xans or fr/de xans effectively.

Xans *are* usually quite effective against terrans and since most people are terran that gives them an advantage in terms of the amount of targets available to them. So, perhaps it's reasonable to conclude that xans are on top not because the shipstats are badly balanced, but because there are too many terrans

[Tactitus]

Originally Posted by Sinn

The stats are far from perfect but do not give one race a clear benefit over all others (they do give some races an advantage versus one or two other races perhaps, but i dont see how that's a bad thing).

Well, it's bad when a large majority of players pick one or two races.

Xans *are* usually quite effective against terrans and since most people are terran that gives them an advantage in terms of the amount of targets available to them. So, perhaps it's reasonable to conclude that xans are on top not because the shipstats are badly balanced, but because there are too many terrans

I'm sorry, but if the stats require or assume that all races will be more-or-less equally represented for there to be balance, then the stats aren't balanced. Period. There's always a herd mentality in play and in just about every round one race or sometimes two gets picked way more often than the rest.

[Gerbie]

Maybe they should close the signup for new terrans. The amount of terrans still seems to increase.

[Tactitus]

Originally Posted by Gerbie

Maybe they should close the signup for new terrans. The amount of terrans still seems to increase.

I see the race selection menu lists Terrans first. I guess that's slightly better than making them the default.

[Gerbie]

Cath and zik can roid each other for free. How can cath and zik do that to a xan (other than by freezing/subbing a xan's entire fleet?

[Linkie]

Cath can easily roid xan with vipers+fr pods.

[jerome]

Roaches+Mosquitoes+Vipers own all xans apart from ones with plety of Broads. Vipers+Cr own the ones with plenty of broads :}

[cypher]

rofl a cath with same size as a xan can prolly own his entire fleet, providing the cath has half a brain.

just there's this little thing called defence on eta 10/9 which is in general easier then eta 8/9

[mazzelaar]

http://parser.visionhq.org/index.php...96720010dcc6b1

http://parser.visionhq.org/index.php...96720010dcc6b1

Had many more but they aren't in my news any more.

[rshih]

mazz is my hero