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Unread 6 Nov 2008, 01:03   #1
MrLobster
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Devs Blogs?

Is any work being done on PA?

Anything like making anything streamlined, adding new features?
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Unread 6 Nov 2008, 12:34   #2
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Re: Devs Blogs?

Developer blogs would add some fresh content to the portal and give players something to discuss. The only problem is that it needs developers who are able to write the content on a regular basis to interact with the community - something which I can't see coming anytime soon.
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Unread 6 Nov 2008, 13:57   #3
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Re: Devs Blogs?

I agree. It would be nice if we got more information from PA Team about where they're planning to take the game. I'm not sure if the overhead of a developer blog is what we need, but the amount of communication between PA Team and the player base should definitely increase.

In my opinion, more regular responses on the PA Suggestions forum would be a step in the right direction. This can be as short as "yes, we're going to implement this" or "no, we're not going to implement this" or even "this sounds interesting, please discuss more". It gives the community and idea about what's happening to the game and gives them a chance to give feedback on the intentions of the developers.

This however requires some kind of game design vision, which I'm fairly confident does not exist at the moment. Because of this, there's no standard by which to measure the value of suggestions, increasing the risk of bits and pieces being added without a reasonable understanding of what they will do, resulting in a very fragmented sort of game.


As an example, let's look at FCs. In the good old days, the bonus gained from them leveled out at 60 FCs; that is, your 61st FC wouldn't do anything. You could never get more than a 30% bonus from FCs. People could choose between picking mass FCs and mass distorters.

Ascendancy played 2 rounds with the latter strategy (first just one gal, the next round most of the alliance) and it was demonstrated that distwhoring was indeed a viable strategy. It also resulted in an increase in strategic warface, because the number of SK based attacks increased (a trend we're still seeing today), enhancing the potential destructive force of alliance wars. In other words, it made the game more exciting.

This was fairly arbitrarily changed a few rounds ago, when PA Team suddenly removed the FC limit, effectively allowing a bonus from FCs of up to 75%. This caused the relative income difference between the two (more roids for disters, more income/roid for FCers) to increase by a factor 2.5, effectively killing off the effectiveness of massing distorters.

There isn't a doubt on my mind that someone in the community would have pointed this risk out beforehand, if only PA Team had informed us of their intentions. Instead, they implemented it without feedback and as a consequence, there is now only 1 half-decent strategy when it comes to constructions: mass FCs.
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Unread 6 Nov 2008, 14:32   #4
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Re: Devs Blogs?

mz for suggestions mod/dev blogger!
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Unread 6 Nov 2008, 15:37   #5
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Re: Devs Blogs?

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mz for suggestions mod/dev blogger!
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Unread 6 Nov 2008, 15:47   #6
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Re: Devs Blogs?

While I appreciate the sentiment, I'm not actually a developer and have no intention of becoming one. In any case, just inserting a translator of sorts (that's all it'd end up as) between developers and community is a bad idea because it'll reduce the interaction between the two, rather than increase it. It's really the developers themselves (I think that's Cin and Appoco?) who should do it.
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Unread 5 Dec 2008, 13:41   #7
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Re: Devs Blogs?

Whilst the idea is good in theory, my total time on Planetarion is pretty limited at the moment and most of it is spent fending off people on IRC who wish to complain about everything.

I'm actually therefore considering cutting my time in general contact with the Planetarion community, as so far this round I've made no progress on next round's stats [paging JBG...] and no significant coding changes.

Adding the overhead of writing a development blog will mean that unless I lose my job (or at the least am between projects on my job), I won't actually do any developing. This is before I have to field all the e-mails on my blog!

With respect to talking to the community, I find that extremely problematic as for any given suggestion it's either a trivial change or no one can agree on what the change should be (especially once you get beyond vague concepts to practical details, which no one is willing to provide. Also, by "community" you mean "the active people who talk on the forums and IRC"

It's extremely demotivating to have someone "come up with" a wonderful idea (basic broad outline if we're lucky) and expect us to spend hours working out all the fine details to make it work, only for it to be shot down by the other side of the active community. It's hard to fight the "I've spent ages on this thing and now no one wants it, but I'm going to add it anyway" impulse.

There is an inivite-only development group which provides some assistance, but it's as much a review board for ideas from myself and Cin, and a summary of ideas on the public forums. Not everyone agrees there either

I've also recently talked to alliance HCs as another representative group of the Planetarion community.


Finally, to respond to the "recruit more people", since I've joined (3 1/2 years) we've had Kloopy, Kal (briefly), myself, Cin, ph8, and 6 or so coders who were recruited to help in 2 separate periods. Most of them haven't had a huge impact and only Cin and myself are still present.

It definitely needs to be looked at, and as always I'm interested in people who are willing to help [and sign an NDA], but more importantly who are willing to take the initiative and go and do things themselves. I've not found many people who are so far
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Unread 5 Dec 2008, 15:39   #8
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Re: Devs Blogs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
With respect to talking to the community, I find that extremely problematic as for any given suggestion it's either a trivial change or no one can agree on what the change should be (especially once you get beyond vague concepts to practical details, which no one is willing to provide. Also, by "community" you mean "the active people who talk on the forums and IRC"

It's extremely demotivating to have someone "come up with" a wonderful idea (basic broad outline if we're lucky) and expect us to spend hours working out all the fine details to make it work, only for it to be shot down by the other side of the active community. It's hard to fight the "I've spent ages on this thing and now no one wants it, but I'm going to add it anyway" impulse.

There is an inivite-only development group which provides some assistance, but it's as much a review board for ideas from myself and Cin, and a summary of ideas on the public forums. Not everyone agrees there either
Game development is not a democratic process. You are in charge. People can make suggestions and propose changes, but ultimately you make the calls.

This is problematic because you don't have a long-term vision by which to judge the merit of certain suggestions. A lot of people on here have a lot of ideas, but many of them contradict ideas by other people. Person A's suggestions might be excellent when judged in the light of person A's vision (which is not usually explicitly defined, making it even harder to discuss it), but might suck in the light of person B's vision.

Furthermore, many people who play now first signed up for a completely different game many years ago. I have been playing these games for close to 5 years and I know there are others out there who have been around a lot longer than I have. Compare PA from 10 rounds ago to PA now. So many additions have been made over the years, the game as it is now is very different than it was back then. It's almost inevitable that people leave when they think the game is taking a turn for the worse; this is not something that should demotivate you, because there are also people out there who wouldn't have played 10 rounds ago, but would play now, thanks to the changes you've made. It's an implicit aspect of iterative game development that your target audience shifts as time passes. Of course, this does assume new people sign up and play, which does not happen nearly enough, mostly due to the rather steep learning curve.

A good example of what you should not be doing is the new private galaxies mechanism. Rob's idea was elegant in its simplicity. But in an attempt to appease alliance HCs, you have created a complicated and hopelessly counter-intuitive feature which neither private galaxy fans nor alliance fans like. The same goes for the landing scan, and several other changes over the last few rounds.



As for the vision itself, in my opinion the most important goal should be making the game more accessible for new players. This involves removing the alliance limits, making it easier for players to gain access to scans and creating a better introduction manual.
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Unread 5 Dec 2008, 16:40   #9
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Re: Devs Blogs?

Agreed on the certainly catastrophic priv gal system that's in the pipeline.

There are certain ideas that have caused a bit of community kerfuffle over the years, but this is the first one that genuinely threatens to kill the game.

Nobody wants it.

I said to you recently in pm, Appocomaster, that there is a whole world of difference between "Sounds like an interesting idea" and "I genuinely think people will enjoy this in the long run". A lot of the ideas that get implemented seem to be a direct result of the former, and that's why PA gets a lot of negative criticism.

That said, your decision to involve alliance representatives (unless the gesture was ultimately a hollow one) in your decision as to the direction in which R30 will be going was a good one. Granted, you got a lot of angry responses (sorry for my part in that), but I can guarantee you that if we took the time to think about it for just a short second, everyone appreciated the heads-up, and their chance to voice their concerns.

This was definitely a step in the right direction in terms of the developer-to-player relationship, and if you take the feedback onboard and cancel those ridiculous plans, it will most definitely be a positive sign of things to come.

Appocomaster you being here is incredibly good for the game, as it cuts the proportion of twats developing the game by 50%. Any time you put in to the game we are thankful for - because quite simply, PA with only Cin in charge would last just 5 minutes.... and even then that'll only be because somebody was afk for 4 of them.

Devs blog = good suggestion, but perhaps more of a long-term goal (i.e. direction) than something to be rushed in to straight away.
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Unread 5 Dec 2008, 16:47   #10
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Re: Devs Blogs?

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
As for the vision itself, in my opinion the most important goal should be making the game more accessible for new players. This involves removing the alliance limits, making it easier for players to gain access to scans and creating a better introduction manual.
My single only concern with removing alliance limits is the fact that Ascendancy would simply recruit all the good players. Because no matter how you look at it, the vast majority of players would like to be in Asc - you're the best group of players in terms of skill level by some considerable margin.

If it wasn't for Ascendancy I'd be completely behind the no limits idea, but it's just too much of a risk to the rest of the community for all the good players (or most of them) to flock to the one alliance.

You guys are already made up almost entirely of people who can run an alliance/dc, so to suggest that we make it possible for everyone else who're at that level of skill is too much of a risk to take.

And while I appreciate that it's other people's responsibility to provide an alternative - let's face it, the only people capable of providing an alternative are already in Asc.

But, I digress...

devblogs etc.
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Unread 5 Dec 2008, 16:59   #11
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Re: Devs Blogs?

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Originally Posted by Kenny View Post
My single only concern with removing alliance limits is the fact that Ascendancy would simply recruit all the good players. Because no matter how you look at it, the vast majority of players would like to be in Asc - you're the best group of players in terms of skill level by some considerable margin.

If it wasn't for Ascendancy I'd be completely behind the no limits idea, but it's just too much of a risk to the rest of the community for all the good players (or most of them) to flock to the one alliance.

You guys are already made up almost entirely of people who can run an alliance/dc, so to suggest that we make it possible for everyone else who're at that level of skill is too much of a risk to take.

And while I appreciate that it's other people's responsibility to provide an alternative - let's face it, the only people capable of providing an alternative are already in Asc.

But, I digress...

devblogs etc.
Yup, Alliance limits are a necessary evil. Without them, 1-2 alliances could recruit every decent player and the other alliances would no longer be valid in the round. Take this round for example, Rock/Aud/Vgn couldnt fight for #1 spot but we still have a huge part in how the round played out due to being on level footing members wise.
The alliance limit keeps lower alliances in the game and allows them to compete, making sure that even new players can find an alliance which is recruiting that will be making some dent in the round. Without the alliance limit, the top 2 alliances would take all the good players.. then where would the new players go?

As far as a Developers blog, i think it takes up way too much time. However, i would like to see a detailed End of Round post by the admins stating any changes coming up in the game with the reasons why they made the change (there thoughts on the change). As at the moment, all we really get at the moment is a list of changes with no real insight into why.
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Unread 5 Dec 2008, 19:29   #12
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Re: Devs Blogs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post

As far as a Developers blog, i think it takes up way too much time. However, i would like to see a detailed End of Round post by the admins stating any changes coming up in the game with the reasons why they made the change (there thoughts on the change). As at the moment, all we really get at the moment is a list of changes with no real insight into why.

I like this idea.
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Unread 5 Dec 2008, 19:40   #13
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Re: Devs Blogs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny View Post
Agreed on the certainly catastrophic priv gal system that's in the pipeline.
That is not what I said at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny View Post
Nobody wants it.
Wrong, but Appoco should largely be ignoring the masses anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny View Post
[Reply to mz' vision]
I did not mean to present that as the next topic of discussion, merely as an example of what PA is lacking at the moment.
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Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 5 Dec 2008 at 19:57.
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Unread 5 Dec 2008, 23:02   #14
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Re: Devs Blogs?

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Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
It definitely needs to be looked at, and as always I'm interested in people who are willing to help [and sign an NDA], but more importantly who are willing to take the initiative and go and do things themselves. I've not found many people who are so far
Translation:
OMAC wants people to sign up to work for free for a for profit company and lock them into an NDA. I can't imagine why more folks haven't signed up for this....
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Unread 5 Dec 2008, 23:05   #15
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Re: Devs Blogs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
Whilst the idea is good in theory, my total time on Planetarion is pretty limited at the moment and most of it is spent fending off people on IRC who wish to complain about everything.

I'm actually therefore considering cutting my time in general contact with the Planetarion community, as so far this round I've made no progress on next round's stats [paging JBG...] and no significant coding changes.

Adding the overhead of writing a development blog will mean that unless I lose my job (or at the least am between projects on my job), I won't actually do any developing. This is before I have to field all the e-mails on my blog!
If you haven't got the time then let someone else take the reign as main developer.

Your suggestion to solving the problem (spending less time with the community) is the entire opposite of what this game needs. Arguing with people on IRC isn't the most ideal use of time I agree, however the communication on upcoming game changes tends to be almost non-existent.
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Unread 5 Dec 2008, 23:41   #16
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Re: Devs Blogs?

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Originally Posted by GReaper View Post
If you haven't got the time then let someone else take the reign as main developer.

Your suggestion to solving the problem (spending less time with the community) is the entire opposite of what this game needs. Arguing with people on IRC isn't the most ideal use of time I agree, however the communication on upcoming game changes tends to be almost non-existent.
No one has shown the slightest hint of interest at resigning all alliance ties and taking on this rather critical community. I'd welcome someone else stepping up - that's what I looked for when I was asking for my deputy a year ago or so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monroe View Post
Translation:
OMAC wants people to sign up to work for free for a for profit company and lock them into an NDA. I can't imagine why more folks haven't signed up for this....
OMAC haven't mentioned this at all.
OMAC's NDA is very very different from Jolt's. I can't see it being a huge issue any more, tbh.
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Unread 6 Dec 2008, 00:45   #17
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Re: Devs Blogs?

Would it be possible for us to see this NDA? I would imagine it'd help.
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Unread 6 Dec 2008, 08:47   #18
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Re: Devs Blogs?

NDA

I, [INSERT NAME] of [INSERT ADDRESS] (the Moderator) agree the following
terms as part of the Moderator Agreement (the "Agreement") for Planetarion

* *
1. To keep and hold as confidential, and not use for any purpose
other than as expressly permitted herein, any and all information
described as confidential provided by OMAC Industries, its subsidiaries
or partners ("OMAC") regarding for Planetarion or any other title.


2. That the restrictions herein provided shall not apply with respect
to confidential information which is known by the Moderator at the time
of receipt and which the Moderator can demonstrate by documentary
evidence; or that becomes a part of the public domain without breach of
this Agreement by the Moderator


3. That any breach of this Agreement could result in serious damage
being sustained by the parties involved, and OMAC shall have a range of
non-monetary recourses including banning the Moderator from any OMAC
titles and Internet properties.
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Unread 6 Dec 2008, 12:31   #19
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Re: Devs Blogs?

That does look quite reasonable. Is that "Moderator" in the sense of the forums, or does it apply to all PA related titles?
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Unread 6 Dec 2008, 15:40   #20
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Re: Devs Blogs?

That's about the tamest NDA I've ever seen, heh.
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Unread 6 Dec 2008, 16:23   #21
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Re: Devs Blogs?

I would have to concur. I withdraw my previous statement, other then the not getting paid part.
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Unread 6 Dec 2008, 17:52   #22
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Re: Devs Blogs?

That NDA is the most reasonable I have ever seen.

Back to the thread though, most of the objections raised here are because this idea would reduce the power of alliances, which is a piss poor argument. In reality all this option does is give players a choice whether to prioritise their alliance or galaxy and more choice is generally a good thing.

Another rubbish argument raised is that this would somehow be exploited by Ascendancy to win. Firstly, even we are not so omniscient as to be able to predict the entirely new metagame this change would generate. Secondly we currently use the exile and late signup systems to generate as close to private gals as we can anyway, so we would presumably gain the least from alliances being able to stack galaxies as they wish.

I honestly feel Kenny's main argument stems from the fact that it interferes with his long term plans for CT because they fear they would lack the member control necessary to play for #1 alliance next round in this system. I suspect this may be true for most alliances whereas Ascendancy go into most rounds in this situation, the notable exception being last round. If anything this idea would be a massive leveller for the current Tier 1.5/2 alliances and give them a chance to use creative planning to challenge for a win.

Ultimately Appoco simply has to choose what he feels is best for the game in the long run and not necessarily what is agreeable to the current playerbase who, for all their bitching about wanting growth, are extremely resistant to change. If this game is to ever grow it needs development and for this to happen people need to accept someone else's vision and allow for new ideas implemented through a transitional phase. This shit doesn't happen overnight and it will never happen if the only people prepared to work on the game (for nothing) are hamstrung by the current community.

That said I would also like to see more accessibility as a priority with the scan situation being top of that list. But at least we're moving in the right direction there and I hope that continues. I also hope the MH's gain some sense but I fear that I don't have the same confidence in the leadership, or complete lack thereof, in that department.
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Unread 6 Dec 2008, 18:02   #23
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Re: Devs Blogs?

Achilles, the thread is on the dev blog
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Unread 6 Dec 2008, 18:21   #24
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Re: Devs Blogs?

I think my post speaks to development in general and I wanted to reply to Kenny's points, which I feel are prevalent amongst most alliances HC's right now and which are more likely to hold the game back than promote it. I guess if he'd posted somewhere else I would have but there isn't actually a thread specifically on your private gal idea for next round.

You bad communicator you.

edit: If a mod did want to split the threads off or whatever I would have no objection!
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Unread 8 Dec 2008, 23:36   #25
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Re: Devs Blogs?

IRC discussions with players are most effective and fastest way to gain developement ideas. You can straight away argue and give reasons and feedback to both direction.

I would rather see a dev. team working on wanted changes, to give them a final form and to fit the changes to future plans. Assuming one would have a larger vision made my coders or together with the dev team. Public masses debates dont get desisions done on important matters.

Alliance member limits does limit recruiting, as one wont ask his m8s to come play on opposing force for example. Just doesnt make sense. This will mean a lower sized universe in long and short term.

Also you cant balance out activity/skills lacks with pure member count for example.

I dont know a single good player from asc, so I dunno who would want to join them. Cardinal beeing the only nabb I know from there should say enough about the alliance.
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