User Name
Password

Go Back   Planetarion Forums > Non Planetarion Discussions > General Discussions

Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
Unread 5 Jun 2007, 13:31   #51
Cooling
Tilting at windmills
 
Cooling's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 579
Cooling is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himCooling is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himCooling is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himCooling is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himCooling is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himCooling is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himCooling is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himCooling is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himCooling is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himCooling is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himCooling is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like him
Re: Who Wants to Be Second Best?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pablissimo
I was under the impression that most foodstuffs were VAT-exempt, at least in the UK.
Weirdly enough this just makes VAT more regressive.

The bottom 20% of households would probably receive around 15% of the aggregate benefit. The other 80% of households, because of their greater spending power, would receive 85% of the relief. Hardly social equity.

If you start introducing tax exemptions on 'basic foodstuffs' like they do in Australia, or 'unprocessed foods' like they did in Canada, you get some very weird flow on effects. Loaf of bread? tax exempt, Imported Spanish courgettes? tax exempt, Rotisserie chicken? not tax exempt etc.

I'd prefer a VAT system that had minimal exemptions; that cast a very wide net, with a very thin mesh over the economy. It saves all this faffing about.
__________________
[Fury] [1up] [Ascendancy]
Cooling is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 5 Jun 2007, 13:44   #52
Tietäjä
Good Son
 
Tietäjä's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Finland
Posts: 3,991
Tietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better place
Re: Who Wants to Be Second Best?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooling
Weirdly enough this just makes VAT more regressive.
I guess that depends on consumption habits. People who spend larger share of their income (ie. low income classes) will benefit more, as a larger share of their income now gets reduced taxes (in opposed to a given figure of VAT). Obviously, if we assume people with more income spend more money (a larger share of their income) in groceries, this isn't the case (then removing VAT would make the tax "progressive"). Of course, in real terms, the people who buy more (on average, those with more money) "save" more money. The only way to introduce a "non-regressive" tax (in terms of share of total income) would probably be to make a consumption tax of some sort, but it'd probably lead to strong parity effects after people would start selling their "allowances".

I guess it comes down to whether you define the whole tax issue as in how large a proportion of your income you spend paying taxes, or as in how much in real terms you pay in taxes. In real terms, introducing any non-progressive tax will probably hit the rich harder than the poor, but in proportional terms the tax probably needs to be somewhat progressive to cause an "equal" impact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooling
The bottom 20% of households would probably receive around 15% of the aggregate benefit. The other 80% of households, because of their greater spending power, would receive 85% of the relief. Hardly social equity.
So, yes, lowering the VAT will effectively grant those who have more money more purchase power in compared to those who have less money. With lower VATs an euro will definately buy more than with higher VATs, and the more euros you have the more you can buy.
Tietäjä is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 5 Jun 2007, 13:55   #53
Hebdomad
I ♡ ☠
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 834
Hebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus would
Re: Who Wants to Be Second Best?

I would support labour for the minimum wage, freedom of information act, european social chapter and the gay rights. However the civil liberties stuff and Iraq pretty much efface all that. But again, I really don't think the conservatives would have enacted the things on my aforementioned list and I think they would have gone to war and eroded civil liberties in the same way.

I do, however, believe that a change of government is necessary to punish labour for iraq and the eroding of civil liberties. I don't see it as voting for the lesser of two evils - I believe labour and conversative are as evil as each other - but more as teaching labour a listening lesson. Anything less is vindication of all labour's wrongs.

Because of this I'm tempted to vote conservative. But it's slightly more likely that I'll vote Lib Dem, not because I agree with them on much, but because it may force a coalition, and thus less of a disregard.

This brings me onto something that really annoys me. People always say "I want my vote to matter so I won't vote for X." When you look at your vote as one in an ocean then indeed it means hardly anything. But this is why you need to engage in civil society, to argue, to debate, so, with everyone else's arguments competing for prominence, you become part of a group, and idea, which can force change; as opposed to broadly aligning with one party and swallowing all the faeces they present.

Back to punishing labour, I don't believe that this tactical voting, which seems to me as trying plead a party into being less awful, will work in the long term. Both parties know they can get back into government eventually and therefore only have to listen a little more than the other party, which is to say not much.

So most people realise there's precious little difference between the parties and do not change their vote because they assume (or know if they also choose not to engage in any kind of political activity, which most people don't) it won't matter.

Just bring in the proportional voting system. Or enact some kind of political renaissance. Sorry, I meant: Just bring in the proportional voting system.
Hebdomad is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 5 Jun 2007, 15:00   #54
furball
Registered Awesome Person
 
furball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,676
furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Who Wants to Be Second Best?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hebdomad
I would support labour for the minimum wage, freedom of information act....

Haha have you seen what they're doing with the Freedom of Information Act now that they're actually having to live with it? Amendment time!
__________________
Finally free!
furball is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 5 Jun 2007, 15:07   #55
Phang
Aardvark is a funny word
 
Phang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: I'm No Nino Rota
Posts: 5,923
Phang has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Phang has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Phang has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Phang has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Phang has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Phang has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Phang has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Phang has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Phang has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Phang has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Phang has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Who Wants to Be Second Best?

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Haha have you seen what they're doing with the Freedom of Information Act now that they're actually having to live with it? Amendment time!
wasn't the expenses PMB put forward by a Tory?
__________________
Efficiency, efficiency they say
Get to know the date and tell the time of day
As the crowds begin complaining
How the Beaujolais is raining
Down on darkened meetings on the Champs Élysées
Phang is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 5 Jun 2007, 15:14   #56
furball
Registered Awesome Person
 
furball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,676
furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Who Wants to Be Second Best?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
wasn't the expenses PMB put forward by a Tory?
Yeah, David Maclean did it as a Private Members Bill. But it wouldn't have got anywhere without indirect Government support (giving it plenty of time, etc). About 70 Labour MPs voted for it, 19 Conservatives if I remember right, and about 25 against. The problem is that all MPs are hardly ever in Parliament except for PMQs so there were only about 120 votes total. Tossers, the lot of them.
__________________
Finally free!
furball is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 5 Jun 2007, 15:27   #57
Phang
Aardvark is a funny word
 
Phang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: I'm No Nino Rota
Posts: 5,923
Phang has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Phang has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Phang has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Phang has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Phang has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Phang has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Phang has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Phang has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Phang has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Phang has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Phang has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Who Wants to Be Second Best?

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Yeah, David Maclean did it as a Private Members Bill. But it wouldn't have got anywhere without indirect Government support (giving it plenty of time, etc). About 70 Labour MPs voted for it, 19 Conservatives if I remember right, and about 25 against. The problem is that all MPs are hardly ever in Parliament except for PMQs so there were only about 120 votes total. Tossers, the lot of them.
I'm not disagreeing with any point here - just pointing out that to shunt responsibility onto the government for a procedural/arse-covering amendment proposed by the opposition and supported by the majority of turnout for both parties (78+1/9 and 18+1/5) is a little unreasonable.
__________________
Efficiency, efficiency they say
Get to know the date and tell the time of day
As the crowds begin complaining
How the Beaujolais is raining
Down on darkened meetings on the Champs Élysées
Phang is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 5 Jun 2007, 16:28   #58
furball
Registered Awesome Person
 
furball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,676
furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Who Wants to Be Second Best?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
I'm not disagreeing with any point here - just pointing out that to shunt responsibility onto the government for a procedural/arse-covering amendment proposed by the opposition and supported by the majority of turnout for both parties (78+1/9 and 18+1/5) is a little unreasonable.
The thing is that the Government controls what gets through Parliament and what doesn't. Almost all Private Members Bills fail. Exceptions have been legislation such as the Abortion Act and the Hunting Act (or at least one of its predecessors that got blocked by the Lords). Parliamentary time has to be assigned to a Bill for it to be debated and pass - Gordon Brown's support didn't hurt either.
__________________
Finally free!
furball is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 5 Jun 2007, 19:51   #59
pig
1up on you
 
pig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Birmingham, UK
Posts: 4,007
pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Who Wants to Be Second Best?

I believe when Gordon Brown comes in he will bring back two PMQs. That will be the first big thing he does.
__________________
pig
[1up]
pig is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 5 Jun 2007, 20:30   #60
furball
Registered Awesome Person
 
furball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,676
furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Who Wants to Be Second Best?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
I believe when Gordon Brown comes in he will bring back two PMQs. That will be the first big thing he does.
The main benefit (to him) of that would be that it's harder for Cameron to really nail him on an issue, since he'd only have 2 questions rather than the present 3.




Sounds like a plan!
__________________
Finally free!
furball is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 5 Jun 2007, 20:37   #61
pig
1up on you
 
pig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Birmingham, UK
Posts: 4,007
pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Who Wants to Be Second Best?

Not sure how it would work really, two fifteen minute slots rather than one 30 minute slots.

I think it will make parliament and some of Labours backbenchers feel more involved in politics. Blair had/has a repuatation for running things like a president and really only listening to certain members of the cabinet and his advisors.

If Brown can somehow engage the MPs again this would probably work in his favour, by going to the Commons twice a week they will feel more involved in the decision making process.

Also as far as value for money goes, id rather see as many people in the commons as possible instead of some MPs treating it like a brothel and coming and going when they can be arsed.
__________________
pig
[1up]
pig is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 6 Jun 2007, 17:07   #62
Hebdomad
I ♡ ☠
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 834
Hebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus would
Re: Who Wants to Be Second Best?

Proportional voting would enable more parties to emerge and thus more of a choice and thus coalitions (which would in itself change the political direction due to the resultant lack of single party hegemony). As the voting system dictates to a large degree how we choose to vote (there's no point voting for the lib dems because they'll never get in, for example) and whom we vote for (the increase in parties) it is not a side issue.
Hebdomad is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 6 Jun 2007, 18:27   #63
JonnyBGood
Banned
 
JonnyBGood's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Further to the right
Posts: 19,441
JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Who Wants to Be Second Best?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hebdomad
Proportional voting would enable more parties to emerge and thus more of a choice and thus coalitions (which would in itself change the political direction due to the resultant lack of single party hegemony). As the voting system dictates to a large degree how we choose to vote (there's no point voting for the lib dems because they'll never get in, for example) and whom we vote for (the increase in parties) it is not a side issue.
Realistically there's not much of a point in you (general individual you) voting for anyone.
__________________
Some might ask what good is life without purpose but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
JonnyBGood is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 6 Jun 2007, 18:47   #64
Dante Hicks
Clerk
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 13,940
Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Who Wants to Be Second Best?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hebdomad
As the voting system dictates to a large degree how we choose to vote (there's no point voting for the lib dems because they'll never get in, for example) and whom we vote for (the increase in parties) it is not a side issue.
Given a referendum I would probably vote for proportional representation. This is because it might lead to a very slight destabalisation in British politics. I wouldn't get overly excited about the issue though because
1) It's very unlikely anything good would result from this, most of the problems with the UK political culture are caused by issues other than the electoral system. You'd just have our god-awful media pining for the old electoral system for the next millennia.
2) empirically, none of the countries which have better electoral systems fill me with any great hope. They might have it slightly better than us in terms of their parties, but is this translated into more social justice / better social policy / more freedom / higher standard of living?

A much more profound and important change would be for people to fully grasp that they, and not their governments, actually ultimately hold political power.
Dante Hicks is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 6 Jun 2007, 19:21   #65
Tietäjä
Good Son
 
Tietäjä's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Finland
Posts: 3,991
Tietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better place
Re: Who Wants to Be Second Best?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
1) It's very unlikely anything good would result from this, most of the problems with the UK political culture are caused by issues other than the electoral system.
Sounds too good to be true. Usually electoral systems involve the "standard" issues regarding incentive to cheat on the economy, and to pull adverse stunts in order to gain popularity. And that's just the scratch.
Tietäjä is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 6 Jun 2007, 19:35   #66
Hebdomad
I ♡ ☠
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 834
Hebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus would
Re: Who Wants to Be Second Best?

I would agree that political culture is at the root of all political problems. As I mentioned previously, ideally I'd prefer what I'd call a political renaissance among the electorate, for the want of a better term, or the realisation you spoke about. But I'm pessimistic about that.

So I'd opt for a structural change to alter the political agreement, or to destabilise it if you wish to term it like that, to abate the political hegemony of the main two parties. Perhaps after a while what I'd call the negative political culture of this country would also encompass the PR system, but I'd need to study the political culture of parties in PR systems to fully understand. But, even if it is so, I'm happy to take that "while".

The reason I hanker for a PR system is relatively simple: The barriers to entry are lowered. In a plurality system, if you want to engage in national politics you virtually have to join either the labour party or the conservatives. There, you are only likely to be taken on board and taken seriously if you either a) conform to their individual political culture, or b) acquiesce to it. In a PR system, there will obviously be individual political cultures for all the new parties, but the increased number is important, and ergo is more representative.

With this plethora of parties coalitions will form. This, for me, is hugely important. If you study the parliamentary discussions before the Iraqi invasion you notice that the executive manage to tell their back-benchers to shut-up whenever they raise a question like "so won't this provoke a civil war?" If these back-benchers, for example, were instead the members of a coalition this could not happen.
Hebdomad is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 6 Jun 2007, 21:24   #67
Yahwe
I am.
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Who Wants to Be Second Best?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
A much more profound and important change would be for people to fully grasp that they, and not their governments, actually ultimately hold political power.
other than being a handy quote for a tyrant's manifesto what exactly is the point of this sentence?

(I am very serious about wanting an answer because as things stand you have typed a non offensive truism and wrapped it in disturbing rhetoric and I would like to know why you typed it.)
__________________
hi
Yahwe is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 7 Jun 2007, 00:01   #68
Dante Hicks
Clerk
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 13,940
Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Who Wants to Be Second Best?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hebdomad
There, you are only likely to be taken on board and taken seriously if you either a) conform to their individual political culture, or b) acquiesce to it. In a PR system, there will obviously be individual political cultures for all the new parties, but the increased number is important, and ergo is more representative.
I guess. I used to be quite interested in electoral reform back in the day, for the reasons you mention. I have dim memories of attending a Charter 88 meeting with T&F and being mildly interested in the mathematics of how things might look under the STV or List system or whatever flavour you're interested in. And the parties of the extreme left (even the anti-parliamentary ones) are keen for PR as it might mean one day they get their deposits back (which are a pain for their tiny memberships to raise). But I just don't have much hope in parliamentary politics to the point where I'd prefer for political activity outside of it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
I am very serious about wanting an answer because as things stand you have typed a non offensive truism and wrapped it in disturbing rhetoric
I do not really see why you think it disturbing, but I shall try to explain what I meant. I attribute many of the problems with our political culture to a misunderstanding of where power (or even agency) lies. At an extreme level, some people seem to have forgotten that they have the ability to affect societal (or even personal) change without having to involve government. This breeds a particular kind of depressing cynicism and disengagement. To rediscover this power (or agency) would be to take the first step to improving our political culture. All of this is fairly banal and I make no claims at orignality.
Dante Hicks is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 7 Jun 2007, 19:17   #69
Hebdomad
I ♡ ☠
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 834
Hebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus would
Re: Who Wants to Be Second Best?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
But I just don't have much hope in parliamentary politics to the point where I'd prefer for political activity outside of it.
question mark.
Hebdomad is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 7 Jun 2007, 20:02   #70
pig
1up on you
 
pig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Birmingham, UK
Posts: 4,007
pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Who Wants to Be Second Best?

I might have missed Dantes point, but I view things in the sense that power should be given back to regions. Engage the public, allow them to shape the policies and politics.

I don't know how sucessful the GLA has been but from an outsiders point of view it seems to work. One identiy, one goal and the people know who is accountable and they understand that they have a say in what happens.

Politics on a local level works for so many reasons.
__________________
pig
[1up]
pig is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 7 Jun 2007, 23:13   #71
Dante Hicks
Clerk
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 13,940
Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Who Wants to Be Second Best?

The above two posts make me mildly sad.

I started drafting a long, boring reply which tailed into drivel. It doesn't work as a forum post though, so I've posted on my lj, but it's not really necessary to read it.

I'll just say this : Politics is about power, not just government.

(Pig happens to be right on some level, I do agree with more decentralisation, but that's missing a much larger part of the argument.)
Dante Hicks is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 8 Jun 2007, 08:04   #72
Tietäjä
Good Son
 
Tietäjä's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Finland
Posts: 3,991
Tietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better place
Re: Who Wants to Be Second Best?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I'll just say this : Politics is about power, not just government.
I'm still tempted to blame the fundamentals of the political system being used in the majority of the "civilized countries". The whole nationwide (and probably any) election-parliament-democracy scheme is a waste of time, money, and perhaps oxygen too.
Tietäjä is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 9 Jun 2007, 11:26   #73
Cooling
Tilting at windmills
 
Cooling's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 579
Cooling is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himCooling is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himCooling is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himCooling is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himCooling is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himCooling is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himCooling is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himCooling is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himCooling is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himCooling is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himCooling is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like him
Re: Who Wants to Be Second Best?

I live in a very small democracy.

I'm just starting to realise this.

Because whatever you think of the political system, whatever you feel about the foolishness of the political elite, your jaundiced perceptions probably stem ultimately from the fact that you, as an individual are disenfranchised. Marginalised to the point of irrelevance. And you will never have a voice, because the society you live in is too large, to fractured, and too captured by interest groups, power-brokers and the media for you to ever have any real influence.

Proposing an alternative system, of any kind, no matter how radical, does not fill me with any great hope however. Proportional Representation will give you nothing more than (at best) a few minor third parties, who will be completely marginalised by the larger entrenched parties.

Reform will probably come in the form of a few meager scraps, thrown into legislation to provide them with a moment to grandstand in front of the camera's. To my mind, this is the antithesis of useful reform, and it is very far removed from a more direct degree of political engagement that the proponents of proportional representation seem to advertise. Nothing will change, and nothing will move you towards more active political participation (if that is your desire).

There are too many of you. And too few of them.
__________________
[Fury] [1up] [Ascendancy]
Cooling is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 9 Jun 2007, 13:22   #74
Tietäjä
Good Son
 
Tietäjä's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Finland
Posts: 3,991
Tietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better place
Re: Who Wants to Be Second Best?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooling
I
Because whatever you think of the political system, whatever you feel about the foolishness of the political elite
The political elite isn't foolish. In fact, they're doing rather good at large, they've got loads of money, large wages, secretaries, chauffeurs, and so on.
Tietäjä is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 9 Jun 2007, 14:48   #75
Tietäjä
Good Son
 
Tietäjä's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Finland
Posts: 3,991
Tietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better place
Re: Who Wants to Be Second Best?

Go ask.
Tietäjä is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 9 Jun 2007, 17:35   #76
Hebdomad
I ♡ ☠
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 834
Hebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus would
Re: Who Wants to Be Second Best?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooling
I live in a very small democracy.

I'm just starting to realise this.

Because whatever you think of the political system, whatever you feel about the foolishness of the political elite, your jaundiced perceptions probably stem ultimately from the fact that you, as an individual are disenfranchised. Marginalised to the point of irrelevance. And you will never have a voice, because the society you live in is too large, to fractured, and too captured by interest groups, power-brokers and the media for you to ever have any real influence.

Proposing an alternative system, of any kind, no matter how radical, does not fill me with any great hope however. Proportional Representation will give you nothing more than (at best) a few minor third parties, who will be completely marginalised by the larger entrenched parties.

Reform will probably come in the form of a few meager scraps, thrown into legislation to provide them with a moment to grandstand in front of the camera's. To my mind, this is the antithesis of useful reform, and it is very far removed from a more direct degree of political engagement that the proponents of proportional representation seem to advertise. Nothing will change, and nothing will move you towards more active political participation (if that is your desire).

There are too many of you. And too few of them.
Shit you're right. Let's not even try!
Hebdomad is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 24 Jun 2007, 16:48   #77
All Systems Go
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: London
Posts: 3,347
All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Who Wants to Be Second Best?

Well the result is in and we have a shock winner in the form of Harriet Harman.

Who'd 've thunk it?
__________________
The 20th century has been characterised by three developments of great political importance. The growth of democracy; the growth of corporate power; and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy.
All Systems Go is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 24 Jun 2007, 18:52   #78
pig
1up on you
 
pig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Birmingham, UK
Posts: 4,007
pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Who Wants to Be Second Best?

A bit puzzling to be honest. I think Alan Johnstone would have complimented Brown and the two would work quite well together.
__________________
pig
[1up]
pig is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 24 Jun 2007, 23:50   #79
SYMM
Love's Sweet Exile
 
SYMM's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Living on a Stair (Now Sword-less)
Posts: 2,371
SYMM single handedly makes these forums a better placeSYMM single handedly makes these forums a better placeSYMM single handedly makes these forums a better placeSYMM single handedly makes these forums a better placeSYMM single handedly makes these forums a better placeSYMM single handedly makes these forums a better placeSYMM single handedly makes these forums a better placeSYMM single handedly makes these forums a better placeSYMM single handedly makes these forums a better placeSYMM single handedly makes these forums a better placeSYMM single handedly makes these forums a better place
Re: Who Wants to Be Second Best?

After the 4th round of voting, Johnson was ahead but without a majority. Once Cruddas' votes were redistrubuted though, Harman came out on top
__________________
--SYMM--
Ba Ba Ti Ki Di Do
SYMM is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 00:51.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2002 - 2018