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Unread 18 Apr 2009, 22:40   #401
Achilles
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Re: R31 shipstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
Looking at the stats, I honestly can't see how the balance is 'shit'.
I wouldn't say these stats are at all unbalanced but the way in which that balance was achieved was to systematically make every race and their fleets universally mediocre. I believe the appropriate phrase is "killed in committee." As a result, no race is actually especially good at anything and instead everyone has a couple of equally unattractive attack options with a few races getting a good old-fashioned glaring weakness or some bizarre efficiencies. Surely there are better ways to find an overall balance than this?

Just as one example, what's wrong with having certain races good at different things, like in your first set? In that iteration xan had a very good to excellent Fi/Co fleet but their Fr was hella gay and the cost to stop Cr/BS with Cr of your own was prohibitive and not really all the much better anyway. But NOOOOOOOOO, heaven forbid that it should be possible to solo attack a race loss free. That's just anti Planetarion is what that is. (As I recall Xan with Fi/Co, Ter with BS, Cat with any fleet, Zik with stealing and ETD had something too but I can't remember offhand and this post has already taken way too long as indeed has this section in brackets.)

To quickly summarise, the first iteration was interesting with some nice trade offs between real strengths and weaknesses. By the fourth iteration it's much more a case of closing your eyes, gritting your teeth, sticking your hand in the bucket and grabbing a turd.
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Unread 18 Apr 2009, 22:50   #402
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Re: R31 shipstats

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Originally Posted by burgess View Post
Only quoting this one, but there are so many...

What is wrong with the logic here that says, "Don't listen to the complaints/advice in this thread", then promptly follows up with, "Do this, and that, because I want it that way".

You're STILL being weird.
I'm pointing out that listening to idiots waffle on about their own personal views on stats is retarded. I'd say almost none of the people in this thread who responded to gate have ever designed, or even thought about designing a stats set. And, in all probability, have almost zero idea what it takes to make a set of stats. I actually have done and do. This makes my opinion a lot more worthwhile than yours (general you). You (specifically you), on the other other hand, didn't even bother to load the stats efficiencies for emp to see what they were like. FYI cath de's emp ships are currently stunned at over 300% efficiency by the beetle/recluse and in general a bunch of ships are stunned at 220% efficiencies and such. Assuming these are actually mistakes, because to be honest if they aren't I don't know where to begin, I'm pointing them out so gate can adjust them down to the efficiencies he actually wants (similarly to what I pointed out earlier).
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Unread 18 Apr 2009, 22:53   #403
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Re: R31 shipstats

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Originally Posted by Achilles View Post
Just as one example, what's wrong with having certain races good at different things, like in your first set? In that iteration xan had a very good to excellent Fi/Co fleet but their Fr was hella gay and the cost to stop Cr/BS with Cr of your own was prohibitive and not really all the much better anyway. But NOOOOOOOOO, heaven forbid that it should be possible to solo attack a race loss free. That's just anti Planetarion is what that is. (As I recall Xan with Fi/Co, Ter with BS, Cat with any fleet, Zik with stealing and ETD had something too but I can't remember offhand and this post has already taken way too long as indeed has this section in brackets.)
If that is the way to do it then in my view the number of pods classes should be reduced rather than leaving fleets in that add nothing but leaves a hole for people to fall into where there appears to be a viable option. If you are to have races with up to three types of attack fleet then they should all be playable or else there is no point in them being there... the only reason I could think of to have the xan fr in the 1st set would be for fakes or so that experienced players could laugh when a newbie concentrates his fleet on xan fr
I would be happy for there to be tradeoffs but they should not be an attempt to trip new players up at the same time... while we are at it a reduction in numbers of attack fleets would be a move towards simpler stats that may be beneficial in terms of attracting casual players and making balance easier (not that this appeared to be the case when we did have only 2 attack fleets per race).
I might be happier to have some attack fleets specifically weak options if this is pointed out in the manual and the stats set that these are meant to be a second option to provide more flexibility rather than a stand alone fleet.

none of this is much help with the current stats set though
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Unread 18 Apr 2009, 23:00   #404
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Re: R31 shipstats

Having xan Fi/Co good or even excellent and the FR "hella gay" is fine but if U R not even gonna try to make one of the fleets playable in itself then u might as well go back to the pre-r30 number of pod classes, otherwise its pointless (tho xan ofc has uses for an otherwise useless pod class so bad example)
Not that Im bothered about doing that but keeping loads of pod classes without all playable fleets seems to be a creation of false choices, ie holes into which those who dont look into the stats too deeply will fall into; while absurdly easily roidable nubs is good for those of us who spend hours looking at these things, its not really great for the game.
all Im saying is U cant have ur cake and eat it! (and what a very bizarre phrase that is btw)

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Unread 18 Apr 2009, 23:26   #405
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Re: R31 shipstats

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
I'm pointing out that listening to idiots waffle on about their own personal views on stats is retarded. I'd say almost none of the people in this thread who responded to gate have ever designed, or even thought about designing a stats set. And, in all probability, have almost zero idea what it takes to make a set of stats. I actually have done and do. This makes my opinion a lot more worthwhile than yours (general you).
well it seems there are two options 1, have a stats thread that you can then ignore but say you have been answering critisism (Gate's mistake was actually changing things based on the forum critisism rather than just changing things that are pointed out as mistakes) or 2, not have a thread and have an outcry when the stats are releaced.
I personally think the 1st option is more sensible, we are constantly complaining that we dont get enough input into the game and the stats thread is a place to show that the players do have some input (or somewhere to let off steam ).
Also we all play the game so our opinions are valid even if they may be biased... it is up to the stats maker to ignore those opinions and take on board that which is valid criticism. As I have not made a set of stats I possibly have a slightly narrower viewpoint than you (I admit that my views on ziks are practically worthless for example) however the point is that the stats maker does only have one viewpoint (his own) and there is a need for others as well or he will miss things. Similarly your viewpoint as a previous maker of stats is different but it is only one viewpoint that should not really be any more valid than anyone else's so long as other peoples views are backed up with good arguments and reasoning. The real problem is that we only have about 5 or 6 people contributing their ideas on this thread meaning we do not have a real diversity of views, if you have people representing all the viewpoints then it becomes easier to see where the best middle ground is, those with extreme views can be disregarded and you should be left with something that the majority will want to play with.
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Unread 18 Apr 2009, 23:50   #406
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Re: R31 shipstats

Let me remind those that are posting on this thread that the strategy forums are a happy place. Continued abusive language back and forth will lead me to close the thread. You are allowed to disagree with each other, but please keep your language civil. Thank you.
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Unread 19 Apr 2009, 00:10   #407
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Re: R31 shipstats

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Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
Zik are pretty bad imo... (not that Ive calced it much) cause reduced salvage ****s them over royally.

You decided to go Zik and not Xan anymore?

:kiddin:

I think Zik's steal options (the class to class interactions) are viable with this set - that's the compensation. As Gate said, Zik always ends up doing good in-game, bad on paper/beta.
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Unread 19 Apr 2009, 00:16   #408
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Re: R31 shipstats

Zik has always either had the current salvage rates or old value gain stealing though.
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Unread 19 Apr 2009, 00:17   #409
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Re: R31 shipstats

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
EMP stuff
Was sheer laziness, I couldn't be bothered to do it for beta. Recluse getting stunned at 300% efficiency has no effect on any outcome does it?

It's init 1, so it still gets to fire. And since EMP dmg doesn't get carried over to another ship, it won't affect anything.

I'll fix it tomorrow morning (technically later today heh) just to it looks better. I probably missed a few other things too which I will run over (eg zik AC/DC). Otherwise I'll probably just say they're finalised. Ofc, that assumes I get my access back (Hi appoco!)

EDIT: Achilles, xan needed changing if the opinions I got of them were representative. People IRCd me and waxed lyrical about xan CO. Even if it's not technically overpowered, a 30-40% xand uni would probably be a pretty shit round for all concerned, so I decided to take that into account.
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Unread 19 Apr 2009, 00:28   #410
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Re: R31 shipstats

If it's a lot easier to emp it means it takes less emp ships to emp it, and therefore any other ships in that class! There are other really high emp efficiencies as well as far as I remember.

Does that mean stats will be finished sometime Sunday/Monday?
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Unread 19 Apr 2009, 01:09   #411
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Re: R31 shipstats

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Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
Dear god i hate these kinds of arguments so bad.

Playabilty>Race characteristics simple as that.
Balanced stats will always be more important than 'xan having the lowest init bla bla ter shouldnt have such ships bla bla'
Unfortunately this set of stats dont have neither though

edit: Balance or 'oldschool race characteristics'
Its not a case of balance vs race characteristics. I'm pretty confident that balance can be reached without giving Terran/Cath/Xan a steal ship.

Its that the race characteristics are being constantly undermined by giving other races different types of ships they shouldnt have.

It just seems strange that people come out and argue that its ok for Terran/Cath to have a steal ship even though they shouldnt have it. In my opinion, its like giving Terran a Cloak ship.. It simply shouldnt happen and isnt necessary for balance to be reached.
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Unread 19 Apr 2009, 01:37   #412
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Re: R31 shipstats

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Originally Posted by Gate
EDIT: Achilles, xan needed changing if the opinions I got of them were representative. People IRCd me and waxed lyrical about xan CO. Even if it's not technically overpowered, a 30-40% xand uni would probably be a pretty shit round for all concerned, so I decided to take that into account.
I'm aware of the reasons man, I've bemoaned them at great length starting with my post immediately following the release of the second iteration. I think your line of reasoning here is extremely flawed for several reasons. Firstly, the 20? or so people who chose to pm you on irc are not representative of anything apart from themselves and I would seriously question their motives in any case. Also I would suggest that unless the individuals in question qualified their remarks with respect to xan's weaknesses and the relative strengths and weaknesses of the other races then their opinions are very likely without merit. My own impression of irc activity around this time lead me to believe that most people had "formed" said opinions by paying a little too much attention to the bleating of some of their fellow sheeple rather than something drastic like looking at the stats for themselves.

Secondly, if the current %'s are any indication xan may well exceed 30% anyway. As you said yourself, they aren't very good now so it would seem that perhaps the correlation you are drawing between the number of players and quality of the race is incorrect.

Lastly, if race number balance is as important a part of this process as you seem to suggest then perhaps you would have been better served making the relatively inferior races uniquely better rather than ploughing ahead with what I feel was an extremely misguided committee approach utilising people whose only qualification for said job is a willingness to voice an opinion. If that's all it took we could just let CBA do the stats man.


p.s. I have made a point of avoiding these stats threads for quite a number of rounds now and I only made an exception this round when I saw the second iteration move in a distinctly negative and, in my own opinion, much more boring direction. I was very enthused about the potential of the first set and felt you had a great opportunity to do something different whilst still maintaining a good balance.

p.p.s. Since the die is well and truly cast I sincerely hope I am wrong and that the statset proves out in the meta environment.
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Unread 19 Apr 2009, 03:57   #413
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Re: R31 shipstats

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Originally Posted by Gate View Post
and etd have two viable options in the FR/DE swarm and the lancer+BS.
Disagree strongly with this, etd fr/de is wide wide open to fr/de defence from every single race out there. It shoots last out of all of them, has no t1 against them (they all have t1 against you) and dont have the d/c to even make up for that.

For example, this is the typical fr def you would get in ally vs an etd with pure anti fr/de. It doesnt stand a chance: http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=t93phwmru1v7nnl

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Unread 19 Apr 2009, 04:28   #414
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Re: R31 shipstats

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Originally Posted by Achilles View Post
p.p.s. Since the die is well and truly cast I sincerely hope I am wrong and that the statset proves out in the meta environment.
looking back at a round and form a view on how balanced the stats were is tricky though. A races strength changes drastically during a round and is susceptive to external factors; round lenght and race choice (and not only what total universe chooses, also what a certain alliance picks which makes the outcome flawed; when that alliance dominates not due to the stats of their race choise but due to most skilled players) are most notable of those external factors

for round length: in my 10 rounds i played so far, EMP is roughly dominating the first 400 - 500 ticks but that goes undone in the rest of the round; and decreases every tick the round goes on; good example was last round where even though cath's dominance was able to hold out pretty long compared to earlier rounds, due to 10 week round still disappeared) Ziks on contrary always struggle the first 400-500 ticks but their strength increases thereafter, when their steals really start paying off. Similar comparisons can be made for xan and ter

for race choise: its hard to give hard evidence but in general when a race is significantly favoured or significantly disfavoured it has a big effect in the end. When >30% of universe goes xan, it means the weak races vs xan's attackfleets suffer and the strong races vs xans benefit due to more planets they can effectively hit or be hittable by.

and these are just 2 factors i take; there are numerous others which all have their influence and all combined make a simplistic conclusion about a set of stats impossible ; it simply cannot be done because of the nature of some of those external factors not being able to be narrowed down and compared to by figures and statistics.
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Unread 19 Apr 2009, 04:28   #415
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Re: R31 shipstats

Is it just me or has having the additonal pod classes really just made it a nightmare balancing the stats.

JBG had experience of creating stats sets over several rounds (afaik), Gate has presumably less experience so it's probably been a tough old job (to say the least). Maybe life would be easier if we took pre-round 30 stat setup, so 2 pod classes. There's no point in 3, with only 1 playable because the other 2 have to be shockingly awful in the grand balancing of things. Might as well have 2 decent fleet options per race.

Maybe it's too late, and maybe I'm just an idiot, but I think we're over complicating things.
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Unread 19 Apr 2009, 06:44   #416
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Re: R31 shipstats

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Originally Posted by Zeyi View Post
Is it just me or has having the additonal pod classes really just made it a nightmare balancing the stats.

JBG had experience of creating stats sets over several rounds (afaik), Gate has presumably less experience so it's probably been a tough old job (to say the least). Maybe life would be easier if we took pre-round 30 stat setup, so 2 pod classes. There's no point in 3, with only 1 playable because the other 2 have to be shockingly awful in the grand balancing of things. Might as well have 2 decent fleet options per race.

Maybe it's too late, and maybe I'm just an idiot, but I think we're over complicating things.
gate has made 2 previous sets iirc, at least since r22; JBG made 3 or 4 since then and i believe 2 of those were more as an advisory role where appoco made the actual stats but please correct me if im wrong or when theres pre-round 22 info . I think gate is pretty capable, maybe a bit too susceptive to other ppls opinion but at least it makes stat analasys and discussing about pre-finalised stats a lot more interesting than someone who makes a definite set of stats with no room for changes

as for the podclasses, i think 3 is better; sometimes a certain attackclass's strength wasnt foreseen pre-round but did prove to be the best choice when the round evolved (last rounds xan FR fleet stronger than the fi, fortress cloacked is best combo; add 1 stealship feeding its own class and you have an uberfleet) and same thing for apparant disability of cr/bs class to dominate due to longest eta but xan cr r28 or 29 proved otherwise among other examples
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Unread 19 Apr 2009, 07:26   #417
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Re: R31 shipstats

I enjoy and like the fact that each race has a certain characteristic. Now all of a sudden certain race traits get jumbled around. I think this somewhat undermines the idea of having different races.

I'd like to make a suggestion:
Give all races the ability to have normal ships, along with some ships that fit the race characteristics.

*maybe in next round stats, we get to see Xan have a Emp ship.
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Unread 19 Apr 2009, 09:46   #418
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Re: R31 shipstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Serial View Post

*maybe in next round stats, we get to see Xan have a Emp ship.
News flash: The insect have finally succeeded in infiltrating the Cath HQ. HQ has reported that the Xan agents have stolen the blueprints of the Cath beetle.
it would more a cath characteristic to try to outpower a race not by strength or numbers but by alternative , less bloody, means; which infiltrating xan hq by the ants to disable a certain ship in a way that it cannot shoot at caths anymore but would still be able to attack other races (which is not that hard to imagine, as ter/zik/etd are as much of a foe as xans for them)

Ofc, not being serious here, just trying to takle ur approach with ur own arguments of race characteristics.
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Unread 19 Apr 2009, 18:25   #419
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Re: R31 shipstats

If you ask me, what's characteristic for races should be of minor concern, and the types they use even less.

Stats can be 100% balanced but that doesn't necessarily mean they are good. If you have 15 fleets and they all cancel each other out, especially with all the defence around, its balanced, but it hardly makes for a fun game to play. Haven't looked at these stats properly enough, to be honest here, to really judge about these stats, but it seems like attacking solo is pretty much impossible.

We have 6 ship classes available, and 3 possible roiding fleets, no? I'd prefer a situation where every race is strong against 2 ship classes, weak against 2 others, and normal against the other 2. This achieved by using some of the various options available, whether they be firepower, armour, speed, initiative, whatever. How it does its damage should matter less, although cloaked ships might need downtuning and emp might need a few kill ships.

Removing multi-targeting might work well in conjunction with this, but that's just a gut feeling.

On a different note, maybe everything is too needlessly complex anyway. There's so many things to balance out every round, its just silly.
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Unread 20 Apr 2009, 00:20   #420
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Re: R31 shipstats

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Originally Posted by Machado View Post
We have 6 ship classes available, and 3 possible roiding fleets, no? I'd prefer a situation where every race is strong against 2 ship classes, weak against 2 others, and normal against the other 2. .

I think this is a start and people are beginning to see that. As Xan usually has very weak anti Cr on paper. But in reality they only had a weakness to TERRAN cr's Bombers and peacekeepers were fine against Cat and Zik.

But as i see it terran didnt really have a weakness, with a fleet that targeted everything, made it hard to emp all of it, and high armor meant that they couldnt be attacked unless you have a fleet value of 2x thier's.

If you want to move the Game towards more team ups and less Solo option then dont give each race more than 2 of each ship type. By giving them 3 ships it gives them the targeting options to make the fleet viable. Who cares about init if theres only 1 ship that is good against you in the universe and it can only Gal Defend you. That to me sounds like a really good fleet to attack with.

The new stats are doing exactally the opposite of what you are wanting them to do. Cat have a De fleet that init 1 targets everything. Last round they missed De's entirely which was good. Terran Co's have 3 very good ships and will be hard to emp or cause enough kill to care if they team with cath Fi or Xan Co's.

Which leaves Cr/BS to deal with. There will always be issues with them because of the abundance of time for defense. I dont think Fr/De should NOT have such high effectiveness vs BS/Cr because they get 2 ticks to get there. And Hardly anyone uses BS/CR for def because its a limited window for defense where as Fr's have 2 hours to get def there.

By making each Race Weak vs 1-2 Classes of Ships means that it will require making more friends or have a more diversified alliance defense Crew. Having been DC for 3 rounds now there defense will almost always be able to cover some incs regaurdless of type but if all you have are bombers vs Syrens Then atleast its gona be bloody and will cause the attacker to think about recalling.

How ever now by NERPing the Salvage rules you are making it easier for attackers to land because defenders stand to lose more now. I'd rather see a round of attack, defend, recall than attack, fake def, land.


And as to the Salvage rules just remove the bonus's from races. Or put a cap on it per attack based on values. The only reason this came up was because of stuff that happened end of Round 30. That is people manipulating the system in order to win. Which i thought wasnt allowed. But what ever. Because of that Zik are going to get royally screwed. If you going to reduce them for the universe atleast do something to Zik because they will lose every battle that they go to even if it comes out a win on the calc. because they are losing value and not getting any payment back.

http://pastebin.com/f47891ec8 These are something that i was working on since Gate 1st released the stats.

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Unread 20 Apr 2009, 10:00   #421
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Re: R31 shipstats

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Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
But as i see it terran didnt really have a weakness, with a fleet that targeted everything, made it hard to emp all of it, and high armor meant that they couldnt be attacked unless you have a fleet value of 2x thier's.
I assume U r talking about r30? as gate's Terr Fr has a zik Fr weakness built in; anyway while r30 terr fr was solid as a rock, they did have a weakness which was being totally rubbish in attacks which really adds up to the same thing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
The new stats are doing exactally the opposite of what you are wanting them to do. Cat have a De fleet that init 1 targets everything. Last round they missed De's entirely which was good.
Last round no DE killed DE, in Gates stats they do... cats dont need artificial holes, emp makes them all over the place.

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Which leaves Cr/BS to deal with. There will always be issues with them because of the abundance of time for defense. I dont think Fr/De should NOT have such high effectiveness vs BS/Cr because they get 2 ticks to get there. And Hardly anyone uses BS/CR for def because its a limited window for defense where as Fr's have 2 hours to get def there.
I think the limited use of CR/BS def vs CR/BS had alot to do with the Broadsword which appeared in so many teams, making CR useless in def while simultaneously FR more desirable, also the larger amount of CR/BS>CR/BS emp thanks to the scorp with no CR/BS>FR/DE equivalent making outflacking easier, there have been past rounds where def vs CR/BS has been almost exclusively CR/BS based, r28 for one. Also this 2 ticks gathering time also occurs for anti-FR/DE but I didnt see anyone stressing about that last round, principly that was because generally FR/DE were bad attack ships so very few ppl used them in attack thus there was more around at home to cause trouble for ur CR/BS therefore the improved FR/DE does not provide an increased problem for CR/BS because its more likely to be attacking.

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How ever now by NERPing the Salvage rules you are making it easier for attackers to land because defenders stand to lose more now. I'd rather see a round of attack, defend, recall than attack, fake def, land.
Its just that def will have to be properly covered by a defense force of equal value to the attack force now rather than half the value of the attack force as it was. The aim of def, before the ingame calc showed everyone they could make a profit, usually was to force a recall often at a potentially high cost, this round was the first one where in most of my defences I was hoping they land.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
And as to the Salvage rules just remove the bonus's from races.
Only Terr and Cat have bonuses - Cat because they dont kill so gain less on average; with terr I used to think that their bonus was because (r25-7 or so) they had few ships usable in defence because they had nearly no FI/CO and mostly had BS ships. It also probably related to firing last. This is no longer relevant and should go. However the ppl taking salvage donations en masse were neither cat nor terran so this is not a viable solution.
Better to add a bonus to Zik under the new salvage system.

not yet had time to consider Ur stats properly
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Unread 20 Apr 2009, 10:23   #422
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Re: R31 shipstats

That you for the Constructive criticism. I'm glad to see that some people can argue points across with valid answers and provide examples.

I just want to say that Gate, your 1st set of stats was the best that you have put out so far. Just adjust some of the init's a bit and and a zik fi or Co kill ship.
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Unread 20 Apr 2009, 10:28   #423
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Re: R31 shipstats

I think the general consensus is, that any stats, other than the current ones, are preferable?
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Unread 20 Apr 2009, 10:48   #424
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Re: R31 shipstats

I actually don't see much wrong with these stats. Would someone care to sum up the bad things about these apart from that they've changed from the first set?
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Unread 20 Apr 2009, 10:56   #425
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Re: R31 shipstats

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Originally Posted by [JungleMuffin] View Post
I think the general consensus is, that any stats, other than the current ones, are preferable?
The General consensus maybe; but I quite like these ones. I would like to see ppl explain why suddenly everyone likes gates first set (its a relative thing I kno); given they were harshly flamed not so many pages back. The first set was terrible for the Fr/De classes of all races, that has been solved, quite possibly with a swing too far against CR/BS.
Also all those that want r30 stats should remember that the salvage formula would require major changes - they are only ballanced as they were in r30 because the FR/DE types generally firing last relied upon salvage for their defensive integrity - and absurdly huge waves to get through anything.
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Unread 20 Apr 2009, 19:25   #426
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Re: R31 shipstats

i like the stats, good job gate
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Unread 20 Apr 2009, 20:52   #427
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Re: R31 shipstats

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i like the stats, good job gate
And now you can worry.


Also s'up gate appoco said hopefully we'd get a final set of stats today
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Unread 20 Apr 2009, 22:00   #428
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Re: R31 shipstats

Umm, I think they're done. A few hours ago I did:

Terran FR/DE have had a slight D/C A/C reduction. (of a few percentage points)
Wyvern slight armour boost
Zik FR/BS A/C D/C boost
Broker A/C D/C boost
EMP efficiencies changed

EMP efficiencies are a little higher than last round in general. Normally I'd be inclined to go higher but since so many caths survived such a long round last time, I've restrained myself.

That just leaves ship descriptions and ship order to be sorted out.
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Unread 20 Apr 2009, 22:20   #429
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Re: R31 shipstats

Okay, so final yes/no?

Edit: Wraith gets emped at 203% efficiency by the black widow, defender only emped at 111% by scarab.
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Unread 21 Apr 2009, 00:00   #430
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Re: R31 shipstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate View Post
EMP efficiencies are a little higher than last round in general. Normally I'd be inclined to go higher but since so many caths survived such a long round last time, I've restrained myself.
feel free to rest easy U can put it higher! (but then im someone who has played cat several times and like emp so biased) I imagine that the cats lasting a long time was simply another side effect of the round, neither omen or ascendancy had many cats compared to the uni numbers so cats had a free ride for a long time last round. Imo it basically took longer for the big teamups to begin hitting the big cat players last round due to the warring.
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Unread 21 Apr 2009, 03:57   #431
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Re: R31 shipstats

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Originally Posted by Gate View Post
EMP efficiencies are a little higher than last round in general. Normally I'd be inclined to go higher but since so many caths survived such a long round last time, I've restrained myself.
most of the ones that survived survived because of their steal ship and the targetting/value it afforded them.

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Unread 21 Apr 2009, 05:40   #432
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Re: R31 shipstats

God just killed a whole bunch of kittens.
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Unread 21 Apr 2009, 07:45   #433
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Re: R31 shipstats

gj Gate!
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Unread 21 Apr 2009, 10:07   #434
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Re: R31 shipstats

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
Okay, so final yes/no?

Edit: Wraith gets emped at 203% efficiency by the black widow, defender only emped at 111% by scarab.
Wraith fixed.

Defender E/R slightly cut, but meant to be high.


Call it final, but any mistyped stuff (like the wraith E/R or an init 6 steal ship ) will still be fixed. And ship descriptions will be put in before round starts.
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Unread 21 Apr 2009, 11:55   #435
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Re: R31 shipstats

If a ship like a marauder (attacker) steals init 20 at something like broker (defender), which is init 21, will the broker fire against the defender in that same battle tick?

Edit: If its a no, does it not make broker quite useless?
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Unread 21 Apr 2009, 12:25   #436
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Re: R31 shipstats

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If a ship like a marauder (attacker) steals init 20 at something like broker (defender), which is init 21, will the broker fire against the defender in that same battle tick?

Edit: If its a no, does it not make broker quite useless?
No, it won't. And that indeed means it's useless, vs the Marauder.
Same with Thief/Corsair, it was easy to roid Ziks as Zik last round, pre-Cr/Bs.
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Unread 21 Apr 2009, 15:22   #437
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Re: R31 shipstats

so whats the url of the "latest" version !?
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Unread 21 Apr 2009, 15:28   #438
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Re: R31 shipstats

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so whats the url of the "latest" version !?
http://beta.planetarion.com/manual.php?page=stats ? :/
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Unread 21 Apr 2009, 15:30   #439
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Re: R31 shipstats

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then i am "using" the latest version, i just wasnt sure

thx Patrikc
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Unread 21 Apr 2009, 21:09   #440
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Re: R31 shipstats

Gate -- can you please settle which stats are final?

Is it the URL that Patrikc referenced - beta.planetarion.com/manual.php?page=stats

Or the Rev 4 stats at the Geocities link? - geocities.com/nd_wtf/r31.04.txt

Kinda makes a big difference ....
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Unread 21 Apr 2009, 21:29   #441
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Re: R31 shipstats

The beta ones
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Unread 22 Apr 2009, 10:13   #442
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Re: R31 shipstats

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Originally Posted by cknight725 View Post
Gate -- can you please settle which stats are final?

Is it the URL that Patrikc referenced - beta.planetarion.com/manual.php?page=stats

Or the Rev 4 stats at the Geocities link? - geocities.com/nd_wtf/r31.04.txt

Kinda makes a big difference ....
It's the beta ones like Isil said.

I forgot that not everyone was paying attention, we switched over to ingame versions about a week ago!
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Unread 22 Apr 2009, 16:54   #443
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Re: R31 shipstats

You need to timestamp every stats page so you know which are the latest stats.
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Unread 23 Apr 2009, 12:42   #444
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Re: R31 shipstats

stats looks interesting, should be a fun round.
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Unread 23 Apr 2009, 13:51   #445
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Re: R31 shipstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrLobster View Post
You need to timestamp every stats page so you know which are the latest stats.
Lesson learned.
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Unread 23 Apr 2009, 15:43   #446
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Re: R31 shipstats

One more question/ concern:

Lancer shows 3 Guns and 5 Damage - which should be 15 Damage total yes?

Cuz its surprisingly weak in the analysis here: beta.planetarion.com/statsanalysis.pl
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Unread 23 Apr 2009, 15:53   #447
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Re: R31 shipstats

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Originally Posted by cknight725 View Post
One more question/ concern:

Lancer shows 3 Guns and 5 Damage - which should be 15 Damage total yes?

Cuz its surprisingly weak in the analysis here: beta.planetarion.com/statsanalysis.pl
Indeed it should be 1 gun, though it is nowhere near "weak". It has (below) average damage, but excellent armor.

1 gun with 5 damage, btw.

Last edited by Patrikc; 23 Apr 2009 at 16:00.
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Unread 23 Apr 2009, 16:18   #448
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Re: R31 shipstats

if there is one race this round which isnt weak, its etd man

( not a shocker in a set made by gate, no offence man but u seem to always make etd into wintrades <3 )
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Unread 23 Apr 2009, 16:37   #449
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Re: R31 shipstats

I don't really see that myself. Unless you start building every ship and end up with one of those piece of shit fleets. It's either vulnerable to fi/co/bs if you go co/bs or vulnerable to fr/de if you go fr/de.
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Unread 23 Apr 2009, 17:40   #450
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Re: R31 shipstats

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
I don't really see that myself. Unless you start building every ship and end up with one of those piece of shit fleets. It's either vulnerable to fi/co/bs if you go co/bs or vulnerable to fr/de if you go fr/de.
a weakness vs fr/de isnt that horrible though imo. So many good def ships for fr/de. Also, not THAT easy to get through, and u can make some sexy steals.
ETD looks like an obvious choice for value playing next round. lets see

oh, that being said fr/de is what I d pick as etd ofc.
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