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15 May 2003, 20:35
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#51
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,290
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Quote:
Originally posted by JonnyBGood
By the government and by the people if necessary. Of course I'm relying on people making relatively intelligent judgements rather than mindlessly pursuing short-term gain. If they don't want to work they don't have to though. If the government doesn't want to pay them they don't have to work. In the end the individual decides.
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if you skip the unions completly there will be noone to negotiate about wages based on created value, because single people can easiely be replaced in case they demand too much money.
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im not tolerant, i just dont care.
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15 May 2003, 20:39
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#52
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Banned
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Further to the right
Posts: 19,441
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Quote:
Originally posted by wu_trax
if you skip the unions completly there will be noone to negotiate about wages based on created value, because single people can easiely be replaced in case they demand too much money.
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There's a reason systems along those lines fail though. I don't trust people to be reasonable, I trust the universe to screw them over if they aren't.
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Some might ask what good is life without purpose but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
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15 May 2003, 20:40
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#54
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Ball
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,410
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Quote:
Originally posted by Marilyn Manson
What, a thrirty percent increase in one go isn't just a slight attempt to throw caution to the wind?
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It's the amount that's important.
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heh
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15 May 2003, 20:42
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#55
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,290
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the problem is neither the unions nor the employer (the goverment in this case) act reasonable.
the goverment wants to minimize its costs and the unions want to maximize there profits.
the best solution is to make sure both sides have equal power / influence (which is quite tricky) and let them fix the issue on their own.
everything else will end up in one side winning over the other.
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im not tolerant, i just dont care.
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15 May 2003, 20:43
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#56
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Clerk
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 13,940
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Quote:
Originally posted by JonnyBGood
If the government doesn't want to pay them they don't have to work. In the end the individual decides.
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I quite agree, which is why I support their right to withdraw their labour.
In terms of their demand, yes obviously the government and people decide. However, no government has ever campaigned (to my knowledge) on a specific pay agreement, so it's not like these decisions are amenable to market forces. If the staff in my local fish and chip shop all decide to demand 60% pay increases, I (the consumer) would indirectly decide their fate by changing my productive patterns.
Voting patterns are far more long-term, and are dependent on a hell of a lot more factors. Besides, if I don't pay my taxes I'm simply put in prison (eventually).
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15 May 2003, 20:45
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#57
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Governor General
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire
Posts: 739
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I said 'send in the clowns'
Andy Gilchrist was not what I had in mind.
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Va Va Voom
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15 May 2003, 20:49
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#58
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Clerk
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 13,940
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chrism
I said 'send in the clowns'
Andy Gilchrist was not what I had in mind.
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lol Andy Gilchrist is gay lol
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15 May 2003, 20:54
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#59
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Banned
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Further to the right
Posts: 19,441
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dante Hicks
In terms of their demand, yes obviously the government and people decide. However, no government has ever campaigned (to my knowledge) on a specific pay agreement
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Actually ours (Fianna Fail) has. It was called the bench-mark scheme and is already close to break down due to the teachers dispute over here. Heh.
__________________
Some might ask what good is life without purpose but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
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16 May 2003, 18:26
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#60
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Gone
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 14,656
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I can't actually see the bottom one, but I've never commented on appropriate levels of pay for councillors, I don't know what you're getting at.
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16 May 2003, 18:31
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#61
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Clerk
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 13,940
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Quote:
Originally posted by Marilyn Manson
I can't actually see the bottom one, but I've never commented on appropriate levels of pay for councillors, I don't know what you're getting at.
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My point was that the Firemen aren't alone in 30% - ish pay rises. You were implying it was utterly unheard of.
btw, the bottom link said :
"LONDON, England -- UK Prime Minister Tony Blair is being criticised for his decision to award himself a 40 percent pay rise."
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16 May 2003, 18:45
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#62
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Snake of the Sand
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Florida, USA
Posts: 1,500
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The nice thing about strikes is that instead of quitting and finding other jobs, you still have a firefighting force. They've already proven that they WILL work in an emergency, so it's not like they're saying "oh look! a kid trapped in the building! too bad for him we didn't get that raise..."
It isn't unskilled labor, otherwise your government would have hired a bunch of new ones by now. It's life-threatening work where said individuals have volunteered to go into potentially deadly situations for what is apparently less than the average McDonald's employee.
Don't call them evil for striking. Call yourself lucky they've decided it's worth fighting for. There are other jobs that are easier to get that pay more. Many are firefighters because that's what they want to be.
__________________
I poke badgers with spoons.
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16 May 2003, 18:46
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#63
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Gone
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 14,656
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dante Hicks
My point was that the Firemen aren't alone in 30% - ish pay rises. You were implying it was utterly unheard of.
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In the context of the dispute, it is almost certainly too high.
And I don't particularly agree with the other pay rises, if they haven't been put through an indepedant pay recomendation body, either.
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16 May 2003, 18:48
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#64
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J to the C to the A G E
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Scúnthorpe
Posts: 5,583
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dante Hicks
"LONDON, England -- UK Prime Minister Tony Blair is being criticised for his decision to award himself a 40 percent pay rise."
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I heard that he wasn't actually earning his full wage before, and to call it a 40 percent pay increase is unfair. I can't confirm this though.
I also doubt it, but if it's true fair play to him.
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16 May 2003, 18:57
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#65
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Clerk
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 13,940
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Quote:
Originally posted by Marilyn Manson
In the context of the dispute, it is almost certainly too high.
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Why?
I'm yet to hear why fire fighters asking for (according to you) £26,000 less than an MP is so intristically wrong.
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