Planetarion Forums - Question for all those native English speakers out there

Xearz · 23 Feb 2003, 14:49

Which one is correct?:

One, Two and Three

or

One, Two, and Three

Pyr0 MK III · 23 Feb 2003, 14:53

Quote:

Originally posted by Xearz
One, Two and Three

Sub · 23 Feb 2003, 14:54

I think it depends on the context. Can't remember.

Neferti · 23 Feb 2003, 14:54

as i already said on IRC
one, two and three
don't you trust me

Xearz · 23 Feb 2003, 14:56

Quote:

Originally posted by Neferti
as i already said on IRC
one, two and three
don't you trust me

Would you trust you?

Gayle29uk · 23 Feb 2003, 15:00

Quote:

Originally posted by Iniluki
One, Two and Three!

You don't put a comma after the word and generally.

It's called a serial comma (or Oxford comma) and it's use is technically correct. While not compulsory it is seen as desirable

Tobe · 23 Feb 2003, 15:00

Quote:

Originally posted by Xearz
Would you trust you?

i would since he's right

Xearz · 23 Feb 2003, 15:01

Quote:

Originally posted by Iniluki
One, Two and Three!

You don't put a comma after the word and generally.

Yeah but what about the comma before the and?

Gayle29uk · 23 Feb 2003, 15:01

Quote:

Originally posted by Tobe
i would since he's right

Guess again

Gayle29uk · 23 Feb 2003, 15:02

Quote:

Originally posted by Xearz
Yeah but what about the comma before the and?

Oops, that's what I meant. I misread Ini's misunderstanding of the question

Gayle29uk · 23 Feb 2003, 15:04

Quote:

Originally posted by Iniluki
You don't put a comma before the and!

I actually thought that was what you were talking about (after all that was the original question) so see my reply to your reply to someone elses reply up the thread

Tobe · 23 Feb 2003, 15:04

Quote:

Originally posted by Gayle29uk
Guess again

??

one, two and three is the right answer out of the two options so he is correct

Gayle29uk · 23 Feb 2003, 15:06

Quote:

Originally posted by Tobe
??

one, two and three is the right answer out of the two options so he is correct

No, that's the wrong answer. Grammatically 'One, two, and three' is considered the 'proper' usage.

Xearz · 23 Feb 2003, 15:06

Oh this is all so very confusing, cause according to my English teacher we should use the extra comma

Gayle29uk · 23 Feb 2003, 15:10

Quote:

Originally posted by Xearz
Oh this is all so very confusing, cause according to my English teacher we should use the extra comma

He's right

The comma-less version is not wrong per-se, it's just that the 'Oxford comma' is preferred grammatically for clarity.

Tobe · 23 Feb 2003, 15:10

Quote:

Originally posted by Gayle29uk
No, that's the wrong answer. Grammatically 'One, two, and three' is considered the 'proper' usage.

no you re wrong

when finishing a list you end w, x , y and z

w x y z being things in the list

Gayle29uk · 23 Feb 2003, 15:11

Quote:

Originally posted by Iniluki
You have successfully confused me!

You started it, you confused me!

You were talking about putting a comma after the 'and'. The thread was discussing putting it before the 'and'. I read your post and assumed you were talking about the same as everyone else. It's my fault for not reading your post properly

Gayle29uk · 23 Feb 2003, 15:30

Quote:

Originally posted by Tobe
no you re wrong

when finishing a list you end w, x , y and z

w x y z being things in the list

Quote:

This is known as the "serial comma" dispute. Both styles are
common. The second style was recommended by Fowler, and is Oxford
University Press house style (hence it is also called "the Oxford
comma"; it is also known as "the Harvard comma"); it is more common
in the U.S. than elsewhere. Although either style may cause
ambiguity (in "We considered Miss Roberts for the roles of Marjorie,
David's mother, and Louise", are there two roles or three?), the
style that omits the comma is more likely to do so: "Tom, Peter, and
I went swimming." (Without the comma, one might think that the
sentence was addressed to Tom.) "I ordered sandwiches today. I
ordered turkey, salami, peanut butter and jelly, and roast beef."
Without that last comma, one would have a MIGHTY weird sandwich!

Note that the Fowler mentioned is H W Fowler, author of 'The King's English' which is still considered by most to be the canonical reference for English usage.

Why anyone would want to argue with a grammar nazi on this subject I have no idea

Xearz · 23 Feb 2003, 15:34

Quote:

Originally posted by Gayle29uk
Note that the Fowler mentioned is H W Fowler, author of 'The King's English' which is still considered by most to be the canonical reference for English usage.

Why anyone would want to argue with a grammar nazi on this subject I have no idea

Oh thanks for that, certainly makes it a lot clearer.

inf · 23 Feb 2003, 16:42

Quote:

Originally posted by Xearz
Which one is correct?:

One, Two and Three

or

One, Two, and Three

Both are correct.

wu_trax · 23 Feb 2003, 16:46

i always thought it doesnt matter if you put a comma somewhere or not, because there are no real rules about that in english. (at least thats what my english teacher told me )

Gayle29uk · 23 Feb 2003, 16:46

Quote:

Originally posted by wu_trax
i always thought it doesnt matter if you put a comma somewhere or not, because there are no real rules about that in english. (at least thats what my english teacher told me )

There are guidelines though

MrL_JaKiri · 23 Feb 2003, 17:03

Bloody oxford

Scoot951 · 23 Feb 2003, 17:27

My English teacher taught us no , before and.

But I suppose I speak American.

Gayle29uk · 23 Feb 2003, 17:33

Quote:

Originally posted by Scoot951
My English teacher taught us no , before and.

But I suppose I speak American.

Ask him who Fowler is, if (I should really say when) he says, "Who?" he'll simply be confirming the fact that 90% of people teaching English are not in any way qualified to do so.

queball · 23 Feb 2003, 18:11

Quote:

Originally posted by inf
Both are correct.

Smokeh · 23 Feb 2003, 18:29

Quote:

Originally posted by Iniluki
You don't put a comma before the and!

WST · 23 Feb 2003, 18:31

does it not depend on the context?

vampy · 23 Feb 2003, 19:06

Quote:

Originally posted by WST
does it not depend on the context?

no it doesn't really

though in the passage in Gayle's post, the final comma in the list is essential to make it make sense....so if that's what you mean by context then i guess it does

the_dastardley_chihuahua · 23 Feb 2003, 19:54

xearz ive told yuo before if you need anyone tohlep with you're english you oyl need to ask!

Gayle29uk · 23 Feb 2003, 19:56

Quote:

Originally posted by queball
Both are correct.

But one is 'more correct'.

Mirai · 23 Feb 2003, 20:43

commas represent 'and' symbols, seperators, or pauses in conversation, thus:

"One, two, and three" is said like "One and two and and 3" - A classic grammar error.

Gayle29uk · 23 Feb 2003, 21:31

Quote:

Originally posted by Mirai
"One, two, and three" is said like "One and two and and 3" - A classic grammar error.

And the source of this inspiration (for inspiration read crap) is...?

[edit]I also have to ask why we should accept statements on proper usage from someone who uses 'grammar' in place of 'grammatical'.[/edit]

Xearz · 23 Feb 2003, 21:34

Quote:

Originally posted by the_dastardley_chihuahua
xearz ive told yuo before if you need anyone tohlep with you're english you oyl need to ask!

pfff, you're never around anymore, Domo-Kun missed you!

Xearz · 23 Feb 2003, 21:36

Quote:

Originally posted by Mirai
commas represent 'and' symbols, seperators, or pauses in conversation, thus:

"One, two, and three" is said like "One and two and and 3" - A classic grammar error.

But how about the 'Tom, Peter and I' example if you interperet the , as an and every time woudn't it be impossible to get a context where the 'I' person is talking to Tom?

Eidron · 23 Feb 2003, 21:47

Well, I don't know if the world has changed since I did my GCSEs, (It weren't that long ago!) but you dont put a comma before "and" in that context. "One, Two and Three" is basically a list, and a list is always finished with an "and" and not a comma. Btw the comma that I just used was to indicate a pause in the sentence etc and was not indicating a list

.

Note that I may not have picked my words as well as i could have done.

Deathjam · 23 Feb 2003, 22:09

oi its teh interweb

its

123

ffs

Gayle29uk · 23 Feb 2003, 22:09

Quote:

Originally posted by Eidron
Well, I don't know if the world has changed since I did my GCSEs, (It weren't that long ago!) but you dont put a comma before "and" in that context. "One, Two and Three" is basically a list, and a list is always finished with an "and" and not a comma. Btw the comma that I just used was to indicate a pause in the sentence etc and was not indicating a list .

Note that I may not have picked my words as well as i could have done.

Your last sentence won't save you from the grammar nazis :P

Do some research on the subject, try a search on Google for <"oxford comma" submission> (obviously without the <> but with the quotation marks) and you'll find that almost every publisher specifies the use of the Oxford comma in their guidelines. Any book outlining proper English usage will tell you the Oxford comma is good practice. Failing to use it is not wrong per-se, it is simply not 'best practice'.

Moving back to English teachers, see my earlier comments on the subject. I wouldn't (technical grammatical error there but hey, what the Hell) allow most of them to teach if I were the education secretary.

MrL_JaKiri · 23 Feb 2003, 22:14

Quote:

Originally posted by Gayle29uk
Moving back to English teachers, see my earlier comments on the subject. I wouldn't (technical grammatical error there but hey, what the Hell) allow most of them to teach if I were the education secretary.

Oh please, I was taken for A-level chemistry by someone who knew nothing about chemistry. English is harmless.

queball · 23 Feb 2003, 23:06

Quote:

Originally posted by Gayle29uk
...

the
style that omits the comma is more likely to do so: "Tom, Peter, and
I went swimming." (Without the comma, one might think that the
sentence was addressed to Tom.) "I ordered sandwiches today. I
ordered turkey, salami, peanut butter and jelly, and roast beef."
Without that last comma, one would have a MIGHTY weird sandwich!

This is possibly the stupidest quote ever. The Oxford comma distinguishes between a pair and a list, which if everything were as neat this quote suggests, would INCREASE ambiguity. The Oxford comma is preferable because it looks proper, not because it has technical merit.

I detest use of ambiguous sentences to "prove" which use of commas is correct. We require context, as always. I can't think of a single situation where you could get any of these sentence and not know which meaning is meant except an ivory tower English classroom.

Counterexamples:
"Tom, Peter, Craig, and I went swimming"
Now there's no way of telling whether this is addressed to Tom or includes him in the list. Using an Oxford comma makes no difference either way.

"I ordered sandwiches today. I
ordered peanut butter and roast beef"
This sentence could have come straight from the King of Oxford but it's still confusing omg omg. Trying to prove things this way is dumb, particularly when you are as clueless as whoever Gayle quoted.

Gayle29uk · 23 Feb 2003, 23:48

Quote:

Originally posted by queball
Counterexamples:
"Tom, Peter, Craig, and I went swimming"
Now there's no way of telling whether this is addressed to Tom or includes him in the list. Using an Oxford comma makes no difference either way.

I'd argue for the use of a semicolon after 'Tom'

Gayle29uk · 24 Feb 2003, 00:17

Quote:

Originally posted by Iniluki
That depends on what context the sentence is being used!

Of course, I should have made it clear that I would use a semicolon if Tom were the one being addressed

Mong · 24 Feb 2003, 00:59

The english language is terribly robust, and thus by its nature may be distorted to the very bounds of its integrity. This strength allows for very delicate distortions and breaking of rules - to great effect.

However it can often mean Jonny Foreigner has trouble :P

One, Two, and Three.

Consider that Jonny and Jenny are married and are said to be inseperable.

Tom, Dave, Jonny, and Jenny... IS WRONG!*
Tom, Dave, and Jonny and Jenny... IS CORRECT**

But to avoid these confusions I tend to be sneaky and write thusly: Tom, Dave, and Jonny & Jenny.

It's a dirty, nasty trick. But it works in situations where that errant comma is causing you pain!

M.

* Well, not totally, but doesn't convey the exact meaning we wish to impart.
** Well, not totally correct in terms of grammatical "law", but semantically it is more accurate.