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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 17:07   #1
MAsta_MArk
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Lowering the alliance limits?

At the moment its the top 50 in score that actually count towards the alliance score with the limit being 80 total in tag.
What i would liek to see implemented would be a tag limit of 60, with the top 50 counting towards the score limit.
Now from playing the past few rounds it's easy to see that same alliances fighting each other, the same ones napping each other and its pretty easy to predict what is going to happen in the round. With extra players this would change but obviously these extra players dont just magic out of thin air.
It would seem to me, that a lower alliance limit could/should create more interesting politics in the game. Even if this is only experimented with during one round, and found to be detrimental.

I also think that 60/50 limit would also be more manageable for alliances to reach. Most allainces out of the top4/5 only have cores of about 20-25 players with more joining for that round. I think these limits would help to some degree to enhance these cores as the communities are slightly smaller. It can be quite intimidating for some people to join a chan with 40-50 people in and knowing none of them.

Other than that, I would personally really like to see lower alliance limits as it would heat up the rank race's. With lower limits the big get bigger slower, allowing the small to stay closer and maybe even influence things more.

Please, constructive criticism and serious questions for replys, or of course of replys of support.
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 17:17   #2
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Re: Lowering the alliance limits?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MAsta_MArk View Post
and its pretty easy to predict what is going to happen in the round.
You could not be more wrong.

Not going to bother with this discussion again, with the same arguments, the same data, the same people. See here. Oh, and don' t read beyond the third page if you value your own sanity. Let me know if anyone comes up with a new argument (though no one will).
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 17:22   #3
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Re: Lowering the alliance limits?

Im not talking about accurately prediciting what will happen and how the round will end.
Im saying that certain things can be seen to happen pre-round because of relationships made or destroyed in previous rounds etc.

Also, good job on ignoring everything else in the post.
If you are going to reply lets not waste my time yeah?

**edit**
more to the post than when I started to reply.
Yeah maybe there is already a similar thread that has devolved into nonsense and trolling, but really it doesnt matter as this is my suggestion and its what the forums are here for.
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 17:26   #4
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Re: Lowering the alliance limits?

This is as much an original suggestion as the idea to breathe air is my intellectual property. I'm all for discussing new and interesting ideas, but the issue of lowering or raising alliance limits is neither new nor interesting nor particularly important. That's why I think making a new thread about it every round is rather pointless.

While I agree that the original thread contains some rather abysmal posts (especially once the QM debate starts), I have recently reread my share of the posts and most of them are fairly reasonable, while all of them are rational.

And yeah, sorry about the massive edit. I usually edit my posts about 5 times before I'm happy with them.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.

Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 27 Jul 2010 at 17:33.
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 17:32   #5
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Re: Lowering the alliance limits?

Ive set my idea out coherently and clearly. I ask for peoples views on this. The other thread that is half nonsense.

Im seeking a discussion on lowering the limits to 60/50 and nothing else and I had already had a quick look and I couldnt see one recently.
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 17:36   #6
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Re: Lowering the alliance limits?

It is not your coherence or clarity that I question, it's whether repeating the same arguments all over again is worth the effort or not. I think not. So unless anyone comes up with a new argument, I'm not going to waste any more time here.

[edit]I'm not sure why this was moved. MM is clearly making a suggestion, so PS would be a logical place to put it.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.

Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 27 Jul 2010 at 17:49.
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 18:30   #7
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Re: Lowering the alliance limits?

Personally I am happy with the 50 score counting / 80 max tag count.

What I am hoping for from the new "management" is developing the game so that numbers increase making any requirement to lower the tag limit not needed.

I would also Like to Raise the point that there are too many HCs who aren't prepared to merge because it might mean giving up/sharing power. Whilst having alot of different alliances playing is a good thing I prefer more "contender" alliances playing. R37 having 5-6 contender alliances last round as an example which in my opinion made a really interesting round. Is there anything taboo about ODDR/SUBH/P3NG/ASS/HeX considering mergers?

might be going off topic a bit but...
I would highly recommend any HC/officers leading a group of people to read and understand the art of war by Sun tzu (see www.sonshi.com for a free copy) as an entry level requirement so to speak.

Any other strategy guides worth reading? please reply
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 18:54   #8
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Re: Lowering the alliance limits?

Here is the most recent thread. I'd like to take this opportunity to invite people to read that thread and consider the various predictions, and how they matched up to what actually happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley
I would highly recommend any HC/officers leading a group of people to read and understand the art of war by Sun tzu (see www.sonshi.com for a free copy) as an entry level requirement so to speak.
I'd recommend this ahead of a bunch of, by now, commonplace banalities. Let's be honest for the game to actually survive you need a friendly and welcoming community much more than you need a bunch of internet nerds with military hard-ons and just enough knowledge to appear like pretentious dicks.
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 19:49   #9
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Re: Lowering the alliance limits?

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
I'd recommend this .
Thanks for the suggestion i'll have a read at some point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
Let's be honest for the game to actually survive you need a friendly and welcoming community much more than you need a bunch of internet nerds with military hard-ons and just enough knowledge to appear like pretentious dicks.

Where you getting this from in the art of war?

If anything It is important to have the way (The Way is what causes the people to have the same thinking as their superiors ie both members and command are in unison in obtaining their goal/victory) in an alliance and having command acting like "dicks" does not achieve this. You can still wage war effectively and have fun without having to act like a drill sgt to the peons so to speak.

I do Find it amusing that one of the troll squad preaching on the merits of being friendly and welcoming.
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 20:05   #10
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Re: Lowering the alliance limits?

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Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
Where you getting this from in the art of war?

If anything It is important to have the way (The Way is what causes the people to have the same thinking as their superiors ie both members and command are in unison in obtaining their goal/victory) in an alliance and having command acting like "dicks" does not achieve this. You can still wage war effectively and have fun without having to act like a drill sgt to the peons so to speak.

I do Find it amusing that one of the troll squad preaching on the merits of being friendly and welcoming.
I think he's implying that by reading or suggesting the art of war you are a pretentious dick.
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 20:08   #11
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Re: Lowering the alliance limits?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
Where you getting this from in the art of war?
I'm saying it about people who talk about the art of war like it's anything more than it is.

Quote:
If anything It is important to have the way (The Way is what causes the people to have the same thinking as their superiors ie both members and command are in unison in obtaining their goal/victory) in an alliance and having command acting like "dicks" does not achieve this. You can still wage war effectively and have fun without having to act like a drill sgt to the peons so to speak.
Do you seriously think everyone out there doesn't realise that working together as a team is beneficial? I mean really.

Quote:
I do Find it amusing that one of the troll squad preaching on the merits of being friendly and welcoming.
I find your alliance history amusing. To each his own I guess!
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 20:51   #12
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Re: Lowering the alliance limits?

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
I'm saying it about people who talk about the art of war like it's anything more than it is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned View Post
I think he's implying that by reading or suggesting the art of war you are a pretentious dick.
Its a self help guide, nothing more and is entirely optional if one chooses to read it or not. (nothing new as it as been around for hundreds of years)
I'm in no way saying "you're XXXX read this" If that is what you are thinking
Its a recommendation that can be either followed up on or ignored.
Similar idea to the link to the previous threads... handy to bring it to the attention as there might not be folk aware of it.
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 21:34   #13
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Re: Lowering the alliance limits?

is it by Sun Tzu the Chinese military guy or Sun Tzu the PA crash specialist? cos if its by the latter id rather not read it, it would be like reading ' How to land without losses' by LordN


On the point of the smaller allies not teaming up as HeX HC i can say from a personal point of veiw were not out to win anything just to play together as a group of casual to semi players and friends and we feel by having a bigger ally which has these type of players en masse it leads to a lack big lack of enjoyment of the game and arguement over active. Personally i think its the reason why my ally broke away from ASS so we could have a smaller group who defended each other knowing we were all atleast reasonably active unlike in ASS where u wasted defence on people who didnt play the game enough to warrant defence (the log in twice a week players)
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 21:54   #14
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Re: Lowering the alliance limits?

We've tried lowering the alliance limit, it doesnt do anything extra.. We dont automatically get new alliances popping up as the playerbase only has so many people willing to take the time to be a HC (or capable of doing it), then you've got to find people willing to DC, just having a smaller alliance doesnt mean you need less DC coverage.

The alliance limit is fine as it is, its not too big that no-one can reach it and its not too small that every top alliance is handicapped badly by it.

As you said, most alliances only have 20-25 core.. These are the active members who participate to keep the alliance running, either through DC'ing, BC'ing, HC'ing or high scoring. The rest are casual or alittle bit more inactive than the alliance would like, if you lower the tag? what exactly do you think will happen? the core will remain the same but the more inactive or casual players will be booted out (hint: they're more inactive or casual and so wont just go and create a new alliance, as theyre not active enough).

It also doesnt make the alliance ranks more competitive, as you've still got the same Cores vs each other.
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Unread 28 Jul 2010, 09:34   #15
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Re: Lowering the alliance limits?

Either really force the alliances to small pieces:
Any new group forming could join more ease having no need to make miracles in finding people and recruits. Basicly anyone could go and start a small alliance based on friends or so. Basicly you could try to reach new alliances and groups moving in from other games like this.

Or let them recruit and balance as they wish and as they can handle. Pretty much as it is now.

Any option in between only harms the game and lowers the amount of players participating: As Light mentioned the kicked persons would perhaps find a new home from smaller alliances, but as well they can be skipping the round as whole. Also its usually the same few people with most contacts to recruit people to the game... dont think such persons would recruit if the recruits would have to be dumped to other alliances.

Also gotta agree to mz post about this case. There are so many other ways how u can support battle and politic play.
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Unread 28 Jul 2010, 12:46   #16
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Re: Lowering the alliance limits?

I wish there would be an active moderator who would just close this thread referring to the other threads that already exist.
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Unread 28 Jul 2010, 12:59   #17
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Re: Lowering the alliance limits?

At least the forum mods aren't as abysmal as the MH's, but alas.

For the mod:

MAKE POST WITH REFERENCES. CLOSE THREAD.

->

MAKE ONE OF THE THREADS STICKY OR ADD TO THE RULES THAT DISCUSSING THE TAG LIMIT HAS ALREADY BEEN DONE AND SHOULD NOT BE DONE UNLESS NEW AND COMPELLING ARGUMENTS ARE PUT FORWARD
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Unread 28 Jul 2010, 13:12   #18
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Re: Lowering the alliance limits?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
might be going off topic a bit but...
I would highly recommend any HC/officers leading a group of people to read and understand the art of war by Sun tzu (see www.sonshi.com for a free copy) as an entry level requirement so to speak.

Any other strategy guides worth reading? please reply


I vote for Machiavelli's Il Principe and L'arte della guerra as an entry level requirement to speak and I plan to enforce it by haha. Just so that we won't have more than two or three people posting here.

This made my day. Yawn.
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Unread 28 Jul 2010, 15:43   #19
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Re: Lowering the alliance limits?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
While I agree that the original thread contains some rather abysmal posts (especially once the QM debate starts), I have recently reread my share of the posts and most of them are fairly reasonable, while all of them are rational.
That debate was one of the rare moments in that thread when I actually felt intellectually stimulated as the arguments back and forth were well thought out and both parties were genuinely interested in the question at hand.

Most of the on-topic discussion in any thread dealing with alliance limits is just ignorance, anti-intellectualism and general disinterest and disregard for the game; instead falling into arguing that an opinion should be equally valued whether it's backed up by anything or not.

ps. To the OP: You're logically and statistically incorrect in your assumptions, you've brought forth no new arguments, and you've not even attempted to counteract any previous arguments against alliance limits. You have, however, managed to write a few full posts without any egregious grammatical errors, which is more than most on these forums. Cudos to that.
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Unread 29 Jul 2010, 07:19   #20
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Thumbs up Re: Lowering the alliance limits?

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Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
I vote for Machiavelli's Il Principe and L'arte della guerra as an entry level requirement to speak and I plan to enforce it by haha. Just so that we won't have more than two or three people posting here.

This made my day. Yawn.
I'll have a wee read on Machiavelli's work.
(http://www.constitution.org/mac/artofwar_.htm)

Edit - 2nd theams idea to be made a sticky
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Unread 29 Jul 2010, 18:39   #21
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Re: Lowering the alliance limits?

This is PA not a lecture on famous people throughout hystory. Making Alliances formed from Galaxeys and not Induviduals stops Galaxey members telling there Alliance everything thats going on in there Galaxey and systemactially destroying Galaxeys on mass. As it stands the Galaxey forum, Galaxey IRC channels, Galaxey in game mails etc are a joke ... you may well be giving someones alliance all the details they need to undo any attempt to make a strong unified Galaxey.
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Unread 29 Jul 2010, 19:35   #22
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Re: Lowering the alliance limits?

I don't think you know what you're talking about. It's been a long, long time since PA was open to "destroying" enemies, be they alliances or galaxies or planets.

As for in-galaxy betrayal, this really does not happen as much as you might perhaps fear.

Firstly, in the end, playing with your galaxy is a better choice than playing against it, even for top players in mediocre galaxies. Keep in mind, your galaxy is a potential defence pool. Cutting yourself off from that by backstabbing people makes it very hard to cover proper incomings.

Secondly, galaxy members don't have access to that much more information than a scanner with JGP scans does. This can be further reduced by not setting people to trusted, but I refer to my first point for why I wouldn't do that.
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Unread 29 Jul 2010, 20:58   #23
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Re: Lowering the alliance limits?

Also, we have potential new players from Jagex advertising this round. If anything, we should be increasing alliance limits, not reducing them.
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Unread 29 Jul 2010, 20:59   #24
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Re: Lowering the alliance limits?

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Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
I would also Like to Raise the point that there are too many HCs who aren't prepared to merge because it might mean giving up/sharing power. Whilst having alot of different alliances playing is a good thing I prefer more "contender" alliances playing. R37 having 5-6 contender alliances last round as an example which in my opinion made a really interesting round. Is there anything taboo about ODDR/SUBH/P3NG/ASS/HeX considering mergers?
Mergers aren't as easy as you might think, ODDR merged two times in the past.
First round with rock, but most of rock didn't feel at home with us, and started rock up again a round later.

second time we merged with enigma, which has been an excellent fit.
but that took several rounds as well.

Giving up or sharing power never really is the issue with a merger, People need to feel to be part of a core, and you don't get that by doing a merge.
A merge would only be a quick fix for those alliances, to get people to feel like they are part of something takes multiple rounds.
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Unread 29 Jul 2010, 21:51   #25
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Re: Lowering the alliance limits?

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Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
Also, we have potential new players from Jagex advertising this round. If anything, we should be increasing alliance limits, not reducing them.
Why were they reduced then?
Yet to see any argument or explanation put forward to justify this!
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Unread 29 Jul 2010, 21:55   #26
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Re: Lowering the alliance limits?

Nobody knows, and finding a justification for it is hard as there is at least no statistical evidence for the alliance limits having any impact on the formation / disbanding of alliances competing for top score.
Also hard to justify with a vision, given that none of the responsible people ever stated a vision at all.
Presumably just because it looks good to have an extra item in the change log that will cause a 2-week long discussion on the forums to make them look less dead.
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Unread 29 Jul 2010, 23:14   #27
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Re: Lowering the alliance limits?

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
is it by Sun Tzu the Chinese military guy or Sun Tzu the PA crash specialist? cos if its by the latter id rather not read it, it would be like reading ' How to land without losses' by LordN
Hehe the chinese one.
Full marks for raising a few chuckles though.

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Originally Posted by xploder View Post
This is PA not a lecture on famous people throughout hystory.
I confess that asking for additional reading is going Off topic and should either been discussed on Strategic Discussions maybe General Discussions. Fair Dues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeimdallR View Post
Mergers aren't as easy as you might think, ODDR merged two times in the past.
First round with rock, but most of rock didn't feel at home with us, and started rock up again a round later.

second time we merged with enigma, which has been an excellent fit.
but that took several rounds as well.

Giving up or sharing power never really is the issue with a merger, People need to feel to be part of a core, and you don't get that by doing a merge.
A merge would only be a quick fix for those alliances, to get people to feel like they are part of something takes multiple rounds.
I appreiate that Mergers aren't easy... in r32 ToF and VGN seen it as a nessesity to merge as they werent able to recruit suffient numbers individually. Hopefully an increase in the player base as a result from the jagex takeover may help allies to recruit suffiently.
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