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Unread 16 Aug 2011, 08:31   #1
Paisley
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World Enslavement - On the fly.

Its been a while since there has been a discussion

First of all lets go into some history about monetary theory... stuff you aren't taught in school.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dc3sKwwAaCU - Money as Debt.
This explains the history of banking on how the private banks print money out of nothing / using fractional reserves In layman's terms.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXt1cayx0hs - The money makers.
Goes through the history of banking... From the banking families and how events like war have been exploited for their own gains. Then focuses on America and in particular various note worthy events when their has been a struggle for supremacy for control of the money supply.

A quote That can be applied to the above.
Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it. - Edmund Burke

What is your thoughts / comments?

I'll wait a day or 2 to allow discussion before I proceed with the next part.
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Unread 17 Aug 2011, 20:35   #2
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Re: World Enslavement - On the fly.

I'm going to watch these and get back to you as this is an issue I have a lot of thought on, I have some questions/ideas but I think it's best to make sure I watch these before i accidentally repeat something or say something already answered.

Posted now so you wouldn't think this would get zero attention.
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Unread 17 Aug 2011, 22:13   #3
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Re: World Enslavement - On the fly.

In general I´m a big fan of what statecrafters would term realism - or well more neorealism these days, as the old-school realism is somewhat outdated in international politics.

So to answer your quote: I belive that despite the fact that we (ppl in power, or mankind) experience Wars, economic recess, various diseases, etc. we will continue to repeat the mistakes and mechanisms that spurred them earlier.

This is mainly due to the anarchic nature of the human being, and especially that of independent states.

Take a look at UN, in thought it was meant to be a place where everything could be settled, institutions like the world bank and other finacial - between states - elements were ment to have a likewise purpose.

The general idea was to make a big happy agreement on everything across the globe. What it turned out to be was just a figurehead - a toothless old lady incapable of getting anything done but diplomatic talks. All while States independently runs their own agenda.

I am for one not suprised at the current state of the world economy. But I´m also positive that after a downturn the tides will change for the better, history have shown that such events are part of a cycle that repeats itself.

Nice vids btw, they do a good job telling the story straight up.
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Unread 27 Aug 2011, 12:43   #4
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Re: World Enslavement - On the fly.

Next part is understanding our prison

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcBsg...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbp6u...el_video_title
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptHQu...eature=related

Is your birth certificate a legal fiction used as commodity?
How does your strawman tie you into contract on your behalf?
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Unread 28 Aug 2011, 11:00   #5
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Re: World Enslavement - On the fly.

Anyone with a degree in economics can't do much else but giggle and yawn when watching these zeitgeist -spirited clips of gloomy debt slavery.

Now now.
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Unread 28 Aug 2011, 12:59   #6
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Re: World Enslavement - On the fly.

I think you'll like this, Keiz: http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1445
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Unread 28 Aug 2011, 19:32   #7
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Re: World Enslavement - On the fly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
Anyone with a degree in economics can't do much else but giggle and yawn when watching these zeitgeist -spirited clips of gloomy debt slavery.

Now now.
The videos are suppose to explain it in layman's terms...
However are you saying that there are inaccuracies?

No flame/troll bait intended, just interested in your perspective.
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Unread 28 Aug 2011, 20:09   #8
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Re: World Enslavement - On the fly.

Get rid of the banks, get rid of Politicians and let Anarchy Reign Supreme
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Unread 29 Aug 2011, 14:59   #9
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Re: World Enslavement - On the fly.

Religion mentioned in an economic debate. Paging Jesus to thread #199501 to tell us about economics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
The videos are suppose to explain it in layman's terms...
However are you saying that there are inaccuracies?

No flame/troll bait intended, just interested in your perspective.
Honestly, I didn't watch them through. I looked for maybe ten minutes, and at that point it was more or less a copy of Zeitgeist. I watched both Zeitgeists.

While I fully acknowledge the weaknesses of a monetary economy (as opposed to a trade economy which was very widespread in 12,000 years before Christ), I keep coming down with the question of what's better. One bottom flaw in this line of thinking is that debt must somehow equate wealth, or that there needs to be a total amount of debt that must be capped by an arbitrary amount of 'existing wealth'. This is not so. Debt is not only against current wealth, and current productivity, but future wealth, and future productivity.

Debt enslavement is one of the things people fling around and it tends to have to do with the cycle where someone illustrates how picking up a mortgage and a bunch of consumer credit yields you a lifetime of slavery. It does not, however, spend a second of commenting just why this happens, on a macroeconomics or global level (see: Warren Buffet, Squanderville vs. Thriftville). For each Squander, there needs to be a Thrifter. On surface, yes, credit expansion is an evil monster after your mum. Claiming, however, that the amount of money created is only limited by an amount of debt is over simplifying a crucial statement: debt does not exist without a creditor. Squanderville can't squander without Thriftville thrifting.

An argument that strikes from the same credit expansion -critical side has to do with gold standard, and because gold has never crashed in value over the history of humanity it can never happen. In order for more gold or silver money, seriously? The fact that the whole argument, seems to rely on the constant yap on how gold this and gold that, is simply astounding. Gold is as worthless as your fiat money to an average consumer: in fact, it has less valuable practical applications aside from vanity goods than silver has.


It's becoming a bit messy by now, but I will summarize a little:

- Credit expansion: the argument that debt is only limited by the amount of debt issued, or some similar logical fallacy. Debt is limited by the amount of willing creditors. Creditors typically issue debt not only in 'collateral' for current wealth, but future wealth increases.

- Yes, Aristoteles said it. Money is dead, it can't have more than face value. However, Aristoteles may have ignored the temporal component of the function. Briefly: if you were a starting up farmer, it would be surely faster to lend money (with an interest) to buy 10 cows and 2 corn fields, than buy 1 corn field - maybe by retirement you'd have 5 cows and 1 and a half corn fields. Subsequently, you are borrowing towards expected future gains (you expect your gains from more cows and corn fields to be able to repay - I will return to this later). While certain aspects of the monetary system are flawed, there is a very simple rational explanation as to how higher savings sectors in the economy need to be able transfer resources to those (growing) sectors that need it. It's in the heart of our growth (along with imperialism and colonialism, which is effectively theft).

- Gold standard: everyone keeps arguing how 'back in the age of the Roman empire gold was valuable currency'. Reality check: how is gold (or insert 'arbitrarily valuable over-priced metal') any less fiat money than printed money? Because you can eat gold coins? (in fact, the cows and cornfields mentioned in the goods economy of the 12,000 BC would in fact be the only directly valuable resources. in a very gross simplification.)

- While there are liabilities in the monetary system which have to do with it's inherent tendency to overheat (a behavioral economist along the lines of Shiller and Akerlof might argue that, this is because people are on the habit of being overly optimistic about their future), this is endogenous. What is really in the argument that questions why the monetary system is built on an expectation of permanent growth is a question of human fundamentals. The expectation of permanent ("perpentual") growth is realistic if you believe this prediction to be 'most likely true'. Much of the current western societies are and have been built on vastly overshooting expectations of growth. Due to selfishness and human greed, this has resulted in perverse situations where for example in Finland pensions are not only tied to inflation but to wage indexes (what this says, is that: not only consumption level of the pension needs to remain stable, but also if the rest of the economy becomes more efficient, pensioners who are not in a position to produce any of this growth are to receive parts of it - Squanderville, anyone?).

- There seems to be little viable options. Whilst it is joyful to read and learn about the demons of the monetary system, Zeitgeist's solution to this was to proceed to introduce a resource economy. An economy where there... is no scarcity. While this obviously solves all problems and removes the need for any kind of economic activity (since there is no scarcity), it's somewhat difficult to see how this could happen. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dc3sKwwAaCU - 30 minutes onwards is just hilarious garbage).

Some retard friend of a retard ex-girlfriend once asked me what I think about capitalism. I countered it by asking what he thinks the alternatives are. He mentioned socialism. I said, that while (monetary) capitalism seems to have it's flaws, it isn't like socialism has had a great track record. We can spend our lives painting utopias on how this and that could be better on a different system, but I'm yet to see a video of someone realistically telling how that would happen in practise.

I have a really good suggestion on how to rehab western economies: cut wages by 30% - dig it off the currency. Reasonable (it has to do with "Baumol's disease")? Now, can you find me the nation that is willing to accept this. The argument about bla bla sustainability this that, does hilariously enough ignore the fact that we do not have such resources at our disposal, we have five billion people with a tenth or less of the resources an average western has; to reach a 'sustainable bla bla stable population' bit would require cutting income by a denizen.

Now you all are crying, that, because you can't steal it from the negroes anymore, you'd now actually have to earn it, and the evil bankers are doing you in the ass (not that I agree with a lot of the creative re-financing being done during in this crisis, but this is a different subject altogether). (edit. yes, this last bit is meant to acknowledge that there is a tint of 'colonization' or 'imperialism' (however, not through credit expansion, and the direction of this might be more surprising than you'd initially think - as per, Buffet's paper mentioned) in the financial system. however, it's not like this is fresh news: just that, the negroes are no longer slaves)

There is one more crucial question I'd like to present.

On the premises that an economy would be healthy if it only consumed what it produces: why are so many civilians in debt? Because someone forced the debt onto them? Or because they wanted to obtain something currently outside their means?

Last edited by Tietäjä; 29 Aug 2011 at 16:19.
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Unread 29 Aug 2011, 15:18   #10
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Re: World Enslavement - On the fly.


ps.

suggested reading if you're genuinely interested in the subject outside zeitgeist movement:

On the subject of expectations and their role in the monetary system:
Akerlof, Shiller: Animal Spirits
Shiller: Irrational Exuberance

On the subject of western wealth:
King (Stephen D.): The Emerging Threats to Western Prosperity.

Also, the Warren Buffet piece on debt (macro-level global involved)
http://www.berkshirehathaway.com/letters/growing.pdf


If these aren't in 'layman enough' terms for you then it's perhaps best if you do not even try participate in a discussion on the subject. I don't try build boats or nuclear reactors either.
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Unread 29 Aug 2011, 16:39   #11
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Re: World Enslavement - On the fly.

Case Finland.

Most of our domestic debt is household mortgages. Varying estimates go between 60 and 70% debt rations. In short, this means, that households have elected to live beyond their means (by taking a debt to purchase an asset they cannot afford at current time). They are expecting a) the value increase of the property to cut some slack, and b) they are expecting their income level to remain stable.

Current account deficits, however, imply that we're leaking money. This means, we're being Squanderville. We're lending money from abroad to cover our current living standards. We're neglecting the possibility not to purchase above our income, while the possibility is there. People are expecting their future to be brighter than it perhaps is. The banking system isn't systematically to blame of this - it's ultimately the people's fault for being overly optimistic. If, and a pessimist might say when, the inevitable convergence hits, things will go dire.

Here's how things will go dire: the presumption that property values never go down is a strange one. It hasn't got anything to do with anything but false expectations and herd psychology (Akerlof and Shiller discuss this to an extent in relation to bubbles). Property, house prices, have been on rise because people are willing to take more extensive debt to purchase a house where they want it - they're expecting to be able to pay it back. In this fashion, it's a systematic illness not only inherent to banking system but to the people in general.

If, suddenly, people's incomes fall, they will become increasingly unable to deal with their interest payments and debt repayments. Banks will start drawing back their property. House prices will probably bust, due to the fact that reduced incomes reduce the demand for excessively expensive houses bought with debt money on high expectations on future income.

This will leave people with debt - and debt 'slavery'. Why? Because they had unrealistic expectations of a) their future income, and b) the value of their assets.

If you're to blame this on the banking system you're barking on the wrong tree.

Accumulating national debt has more to do with factors like the pension scheme, poor productivity in terms of wages (cuts exports, cuts employment, latter of which causes public costs - again, an attempt to live above our means. baumol's disease is very closely related to this; the lack of means to converge through inflation, currency cuts, or wage cuts, is causing 'violent convergence' through other applicable methods: convergence is however somewhat inevitable - briefly stated in Buffett's paper, more broadly discussed in King's book).

Yes, the trigger would be the lending facility. But the underlying problem isn't the lending facility: it's people's expectations. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but I don't remember these anonymous authors presenting their videos before the internet age, e.g. say during the savings and loan crisis in US.

Different asset markets will function a lot like housing markets when they're debt leveraged: buying a house with a debt leverage isn't much different from buying a financial asset with a debt leverage. You're expecting your ability to pay the debt and the asset's value to work so that it's a good plan: if this is false, why are you blaming someone other than yourself over it?

Lending facility, credit expansion, do allow it: but, given that they also allow positive things to happen (like investments in actually profitable projects), why should the messenger be shot?


Here's ultimately what I think.

Last edited by Tietäjä; 29 Aug 2011 at 16:55.
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Unread 30 Aug 2011, 01:39   #12
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Re: World Enslavement - On the fly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post



On the subject of expectations and their role in the monetary system:
Akerlof, Shiller: Animal Spirits
Shiller: Irrational Exuberance

On the subject of western wealth:
King (Stephen D.): The Emerging Threats to Western Prosperity.

Also, the Warren Buffet piece on debt (macro-level global involved)
http://www.berkshirehathaway.com/letters/growing.pdf
I will take the time to read up on your suggestions ... however I would ask that you can watch the money makers video, especially on the history of the rothschilds and how they would loan at interest countries to fight wars and in some cases prolong them.... anything to make more profit.

to quote Sun Tzu
- If the army is exposed to a prolonged campaign, the nation's resources will not suffice.-

Also how the rothschilds we able to clean up on the London stock exchange with the outcome of the battle of waterloo ...
http://webskeptic.wikidot.com/money-...cripts-part-14

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
If you're to blame this on the banking system you're barking on the wrong tree.
reading through your posts I couldn't see anything with any mention of issuing any interest free currency.

I have to ask if you are aware of this concept?
examples of this the tally stick system in england from 1293 that lasted over 500 years.
Colonial scrip of america
The lincoln's greenbacks
whilst these were fiat currencies ... they were issued interest free.
Unlike the US$ of today.

The banksters don’t want you discovering historical examples of “fiat” currencies because they demonstrate that a middle-man who lends money out at interest is not only unnecessary, but a direct cause of booms and busts. Also, such examples impinge on their cyclical plan of presenting the gold standard as a false solution for a return to “stability” and “honest money,” after their debt-money system has inevitably reached its end in the current cycle.

So are you saying that it isn't possible to engineer an economic/stock market crash via boom and bust .... Jeso just look at the 1920' and early 1930's
All through the federal reserve.... which is about as federal as federal express.
Its a private corporation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
On the premises that an economy would be healthy if it only consumed what it produces: why are so many civilians in debt? Because someone forced the debt onto them? Or because they wanted to obtain something currently outside their means?[/i]
It has gotten to the stage where some countries have debt secured against direct taxation as a result of debt (from interest issusing the currency) from yesteryear that hasn't been paid off.

Your mum and dad sign your birth certificate ... creating your strawman for tax liability.
In some countries birth certificates are tradable commodities on the stock exchange.

With boom and bust, what might be affordable 5 years ago is no longer the case due to the circulation of money.
When the circulation of money was restricted eg. The credit crunch
There was going to colaterial damage to families and their incomes.
You can still say that there are certain folk who take out credit irresponsibility
however this would be vastly reduced if there wasn't this interest applicable debt money.
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Unread 30 Aug 2011, 01:50   #13
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Re: World Enslavement - On the fly.

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Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
Case Finland.
I would need to look into finland's history of money to comment.
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Unread 30 Aug 2011, 07:39   #14
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Re: World Enslavement - On the fly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
The banksters don’t want you discovering historical examples of “fiat” currencies because they demonstrate that a middle-man who lends money out at interest is not only unnecessary, but a direct cause of booms and busts. Also, such examples impinge on their cyclical plan of presenting the gold standard as a false solution for a return to “stability” and “honest money,” after their debt-money system has inevitably reached its end in the current cycle.
No, really. Stupidity, and herd behavior are probably the most 'direct causes' to boom and bust. It's not the car's fault if you drive it off the bridge.

Quote:
So are you saying that it isn't possible to engineer an economic/stock market crash via boom and bust .... Jeso just look at the 1920' and early 1930's
All through the federal reserve.... which is about as federal as federal express.
Its a private corporation.
I understand you're very US-focused because you lack the ability to think beyond to what the video feeds you. ECB isn't a private corporation. People's Bank of China most certainly is not.

Can you elaborate, how exactly 1930s 'Great Depression' was engineered?


Quote:
It has gotten to the stage where some countries have debt secured against direct taxation as a result of debt (from interest issusing the currency) from yesteryear that hasn't been paid off.
Yes? It's what we'd call income transfers across generations.

Quote:
Your mum and dad sign your birth certificate ... creating your strawman for tax liability.
In some countries birth certificates are tradable commodities on the stock exchange.
In my country, I can freely move abroad if the home tax system isn't satisfying. The same applies to the US. The last left onboard is the person to turn off the lights. If a birth certificate becomes a commodity, it's certainly about something else than the monetary system.

Quote:
With boom and bust, what might be affordable 5 years ago is no longer the case due to the circulation of money.
When the circulation of money was restricted eg. The credit crunch
There was going to colaterial damage to families and their incomes.
You can still say that there are certain folk who take out credit irresponsibility
however this would be vastly reduced if there wasn't this interest applicable debt money.
What was 20 years ago was affordable because colonization and imperialism were still more or less in impact, or at least the convergence methods were severely limited. Now, that convergence methods are less limited and we can't enslave negroes anymore, did you expect the west to be able to live above it's means without collecting massive debt?

Families were one of the key component of the 'folk' who took out credit irresponsibly in the US before the credit crunch. This is the same in Finland through history. Mortgage lifespans can be as long as 25 years. If this isn't mad I don't know what is.

Last edited by Tietäjä; 30 Aug 2011 at 07:45.
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Unread 30 Aug 2011, 07:42   #15
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Re: World Enslavement - On the fly.

Quote:
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I would need to look into finland's history of money to comment.
Are you in fact able to go into any other 'history of money' except for that presented to you in the youtube videos by an anonymous author who sells his conspiracy theory products anonymous on his website?
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Unread 30 Aug 2011, 14:53   #16
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Re: World Enslavement - On the fly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
No, really. Stupidity, and herd behavior are probably the most 'direct causes' to boom and bust. It's not the car's fault if you drive it off the bridge.
Unless the brakes were faulty by design and don't realise the brakes are faulty until it is too late. Its not the Car (as it is mechanical and not alive) but those who designed/Manufactured the Car. The vehicle to transfer wealth from the masses to the few. The manufactures "sell" the vehicle described as good working order when it is in fact faulty by design.

Congrats on buying in on the fraud.

If you are saying Well learn to drive before you buy the car...
How do you learn how to drive?
Study the history (trends of high and lows), Study the rules (and how these can be used to advantage over others who don't)
The banking elite are very clued up on braking distances.

Refer to the battle of waterloo and the london stock exchange of 1815.
Nathan Mayer Rothschild knew how to manipulate the herd mentality by knowing the outcome of the battle of waterloo before officals did.
Nathan then speculate that napoleon won the battle causing panic.
when the stock values nose dived he bought it up at a fraction of the cost.
Not bad day at the office. It was done by design.

If you are saying well don't buy the car
Refer to my answer to your question further down.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
Can you elaborate, how exactly 1930s 'Great Depression' was engineered?
There are folk who didn't buy the car but still had to pay via being a citizen of the USA
Sounds familar with the bank bailout of a few years ago?

The choice between buying and not buying the Car Is an illusion you still pick up the tab of the car crash via being a citizen to the national debt (owed to the private banks) and the interest of this debt of the country you are in.
But very little are aware of this.

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Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
I understand you're very US-focused because you lack the ability to think beyond to what the video feeds you. ECB isn't a private corporation. People's Bank of China most certainly is not.
I am getting to the Euro and how its is bankrupting EU countries by design and US trade deficit with China and why it is done by design. I am going over monetary history to establish trends.... Patience

I am focusing on the US dollar as it is currently the reserve currency and how it is going to go to shit fairly soon by design.
Reading your posted Url ... warren buffet knows the US $ is going to go to shit.
(the other stuff by king and shiller I will need more time to read up on)
NOT IF BUT WHEN and how this will have knock on effects. But first I am covering the history of the US dollar.
I'll then get into how... I ask that you take onboard the above before proceeding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
Can you elaborate, how exactly 1930s 'Great Depression' was engineered?
You can either watch the money makers or do you own research on the following topics. Why not do both?

Roaring (US) / Golden (europe) 20's
And how the money supply was increases through easy credit.
for example 24 hour broker call loans.
Wall street speculations prior to the 1929 wall street crash, pay close attention to folk like
-Paul Warburg- -John D. Rockefeller- -Bernard Baruch- -Joseph P. Kennedy-
The contraction of Circulation of the US $ between 1929 - 1933 by the federal reserve.
Commentaries by economist of the time like Milton Friedman.
The Emergency Banking Act of 1933 (US)
The Industrial Recovery Act of 1933 (US)
The Gold Confiscation Of April 5, 1933 / Presidential Executive Order 6102

Question FDR motives as president in the 30's and always ask Cui bono / who benefits?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
In my country, I can freely move abroad if the home tax system isn't satisfying. The same applies to the US.
http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/...=97245,00.html
http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/...=96454,00.html

# Things that make you go hmm #
If you are still a US citizen you still have to pay the IRS even whilst abroad.

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Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
The last left onboard is the person to turn off the lights. If a birth certificate becomes a commodity, it's certainly about something else than the monetary system.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R63AH...eature=related
As I am saying it started off with control of money but has become something more sinister.
How the USA basically bankrupted itself. From then its citizens are now used as collaterial.
Refer to USA 1933 and look at birth certificates historically before and after... Do your own research.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
What was 20 years ago was affordable because colonization and imperialism were still more or less in impact, or at least the convergence methods were severely limited. Now, that convergence methods are less limited and we can't enslave negroes anymore, did you expect the west to be able to live above it's means without collecting massive debt?
Certainly not with the wars that the USA government has a Hunger for.
Im going to cover wars once money side is covered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
Families were one of the key component of the 'folk' who took out credit irresponsibly in the US before the credit crunch.
I am not angry at the prey (as they are not aware of the trap and need to be made aware of it ... I'll bring up the topic of education when the time comes) I am angry at the hunters who set up the bait for the prey to take. Who want to skin the prey of their wealth.
Forclosures in the case of mortgages
This is why I want to say look its bait don't take it...you/me/others needs to make all people aware of the bait.

to quote Thomas Jefferson, 3rd US president.
"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs"

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Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
Are you in fact able to go into any other 'history of money' except for that presented to you in the youtube videos by an anonymous author who sells his conspiracy theory products anonymous on his website?
The videos are merely a starting point... you can go read books, webpages etc. to learn more but for the love of god don't get compartmentalised always be able to see the bigger picture... The agenda of those who control the money supply.

The money makers video also points out trends like for example assassinations and some attempts of US presidents
Those who oppose the banking elite's agenda.
You may call it a conspiracy I call it history repeating itself.
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Unread 30 Aug 2011, 22:24   #17
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Re: World Enslavement - On the fly.

Quote:
Refer to the battle of waterloo and the london stock exchange of 1815.
Nathan Mayer Rothschild knew how to manipulate the herd mentality by knowing the outcome of the battle of waterloo before officals did.
1815 mentioned.

Prior to any centralized banking system mentioned.

George Soros made billions manipulating herd mentality during the black Wednesday (surely it was Wednesday?) mentioned. Herd mentality mentioned.

Monetary system is evil forfeit.

Quote:
I am focusing on the US dollar as it is currently the reserve currency and how it is going to go to shit fairly soon by design.
Really, can you admit you're focusing on it because you've watched a pair of youtube clips on it?


Quote:
http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/...=97245,00.html
http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/...=96454,00.html

# Things that make you go hmm #
If you are still a US citizen you still have to pay the IRS even whilst abroad.

a long edit on taxing individuals

more:

http://www.irs.gov/faqs/faq/0,,id=199665,00.html
"May be able to elect to exclude some or all of their foreign earned income, if certain requirements are met, or to claim a foreign tax credit if Canadian income taxes are paid."


http://www.groco.com/readingroom/irs...ingabroad.aspx
"I am a U.S. citizen living and working overseas. Can I have a tax credit on my U.S. taxes for the taxes I pay to the foreign country?" ... "Income you exclude under the foreign earned income exclusion or the foreign housing exclusion. There is no double taxation in this situation because the income is not subject to U.S. tax. "

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/...=97130,00.html
"If you are a U.S. citizen or a resident alien of the United States and you live abroad, you are taxed on your worldwide income. However, you may qualify to exclude from income up to an amount of your foreign earnings that is now adjusted for inflation ($91,400 for 2009, $91,500 for 2010, $92,900 for 2011). In addition, you can exclude or deduct certain foreign housing amounts."

In brief, it states, that if you're paying taxes to a different country, you can apply for exclusion from domestic assuming you meet certain requirements (full year abroad, etc).

http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc856.html - in regards to excempting domestic tax for interest, dividents, and so so.



Again, this is all what concerns US alone, and the US tax/citizenship system isn't the only one in the world.
Say, for a Finnish citizen, you're under limited tax duty if your permanent residence is abroad (this is, under limited tax duty you only pay taxes for income earned domestically - ie. if you live in Spain, you pay taxes to Spain for the income you've earned in Spain, but if you say, drop by in Finland for a summer despite having a permanent residence abroad, your limited tax duty means you pay taxes to Finland for the income you earn in Finland while being here. I'd expect it to be really similar for all EU countries). If you earn income from your firm in Finland while living abroad, these are taxed as per Finnish taxes. However, there's essentially nothing stopping you from moving your company's home nation around (in fact many do).


"Individuals that renounced their US citizenship or terminated their long-term resident status" (and further)

I'm done.


I can't be bothered to read it further: in short, it most likely states that if your resident status is abroad, you pay taxes abroad (pretty much like any EU citizen, would pay taxes to the country of residence instead of the country of, cough, birth, this happens to also apply to Chinese people). Sadly, United States isn't the only country in the world, either.

Quote:
This is why I want to say look its bait don't take it...you/me/others needs to make all people aware of the bait.
I suggest you consider preaching about the dangers of alcohol and gambling too. Just a side note.


Quote:
The money makers video also points out trends like for example assassinations and some attempts of US presidents
Those who oppose the banking elite's agenda.
Great. Now that I've already stated I'm done with discussion, can we proceed with discussing the murder of JFK? I've heard a lot about it. (I watched a youtube clip. I'm reasonably convinced it was an evil conspiracy by bankers)

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Unread 30 Aug 2011, 22:36   #18
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Re: World Enslavement - On the fly.

Also, it's not exactly 'news' that boom-bust cycles typically favour smart people over stupid people. God alone can help this, maybe.

Blaming stupidity of the general public on the banking system is just hilarious.

You speak of history repeating itself: yes, dumb people are on the habit of being shit on by smarter people. The scale seems to vary, but the trend seems quite stationary.
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Unread 31 Aug 2011, 10:09   #19
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Re: World Enslavement - On the fly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
Really, can you admit you're focusing on it because you've watched a pair of youtube clips on it?
As I said It is a starting point to go and do further research...
See how far the rabbit hole goes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
"Individuals that renounced their US citizenship or terminated their long-term resident status" (and further)

I'm done.
http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/...=97245,00.html

Subject to your status ... the good old Expatriation Tax.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
I can't be bothered to read it further: in short, it most likely states that if your resident status is abroad, you pay taxes abroad (pretty much like any EU citizen, would pay taxes to the country of residence instead of the country of, cough, birth, this happens to also apply to Chinese people). Sadly, United States isn't the only country in the world, either.
That is exactly what The Banking elite is counting on folk not being bothered.

I will get to NAFTA/North American Union/Amero with Canada/America/Mexico.
Also China police state will be the base models for government.

One of the aims of the agenda is a 1 world government and a 1 world currency. When/If (depends on how many folk wake up in time) that happens then that choice will go bye bye.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
I suggest you consider preaching about the dangers of alcohol and gambling.
I will get into this in more detail how one of the aims of the banking elite is to keep the people stupid and playing the rigged game. First I am explaining how the game is rigged in the first place.

It is all Interconnected.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
Great. Now that I've already stated I'm done with discussion, can we proceed with discussing the murder of JFK? I've heard a lot about it. (I watched a youtube clip. I'm reasonably convinced it was an evil conspiracy by bankers)
Here is a Brief summary
Kennedy made various speeches speaking out against the elite
JFK signed presidental order 11110
5 months later he was killed
The Rest is all physics and how the media / official story defies the laws of physics.

If you like to start a new thread on the JFK assassination by all means.
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Unread 31 Aug 2011, 11:28   #20
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Re: World Enslavement - On the fly.

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Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
Blaming stupidity of the general public on the banking system is just hilarious.
I do not wish to attack you as it will make you more defensive and less open to explore new ways/ideas.

If you can't get past this you will continue to be dominated by the banking elite.
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Unread 31 Aug 2011, 12:16   #21
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Re: World Enslavement - On the fly.

What annoys me is this.

Partly, what you say is true. Yes, rich people want poor people to remain poor. Yes, globalization as it's currently being implemented is not actually good for most people. You hide it so deep in the anus of conspiracy theory, I'm shoulder deep and can barely get them out, but when you hint at that part, I agree with you.

But then you get to the crazy stuff. Shady backrooms where our corporate overlords plot our demise, ready to murder whoever stands in their way, keeping the sheeple down by poisoning their minds with commercials and war and sports and nationalism in a giant plan to take over the world. That's where you lose me. Because it just isn't true.

How do I know it isn't? Because there's no need for them to go underground and plot and scheme. The horrible things that are being done are out in the open and very well documented. The British East India Company, the Dutch one, United Fruit, the military-industrial complex in general; these things are not secrets, because they don't need to be.

So when you echo far out conspiracy theories about the assassination of JFK (which in any case was a fairly minor event), the only thing I can think of is this. When otherwise intelligent people go on and on about how 9/11 was an inside job, I can only roll my eyes and wish they'd spend their effort dealing with the real problems.

And in closing, just a bit of advice: when you act like everyone who disagrees with you is just a fool who's buying into the party line (as you're doing here), you're just going to end up looking like an elitist prick; if your goal is convincing people of the terrible danger, then that might not be the way to go. Do with that what you will.
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Unread 31 Aug 2011, 12:44   #22
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Re: World Enslavement - On the fly.

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Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
I think she would have better luck if she said...
Don't masturbate shag me instead xD

I see your dry sense of humour is still going strong Mz
-edit to the comic link you have posted.
I just noticed the above post youve done I'll take the time to read it.
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Unread 31 Aug 2011, 12:45   #23
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Re: World Enslavement - On the fly.

I don't want to create any _more_ hostility but retorts like this;

Quote:
If these aren't in 'layman enough' terms for you then it's perhaps best if you do not even try participate in a discussion on the subject. I don't try build boats or nuclear reactors either.
Come off as incredibly condescending, especially when it's laughable you preach economics with sources like it means anything compared to a sound scientific study. I'm immensely glad you'll never try to build nuclear reactors either.

Since you tried to fend off anyone who isn't well read up on the subject from discussing it I can see you are very much trapped by this whole idea. I reiterate a question mentioned in one of the videos "Why isn't monetary theory taught in schools or colleges?" Like them, you seem to be protecting it from anyone you can - despite the fact it's actually quite straightforward to understand. (..and since money effects all of us, it seems to me like a subject we should be well educated on..)


Mz, that comic would be appropriate if there wasn't the underlying irony of him praying to God

I mean really, I hate how "conspiracy" get's thrown around as a word and society has programmed us to assume people who speak of these things are crazy (whilst religion still reigns supreme.. what!?.. different debate I guess).

Quote:
you're just going to end up looking like an elitist prick
Funny because that's not true of this thread at all is it. Quite the opposite.

I also agree with what you say about most of it being in the open but believe that this is the case for everything is surely a naive approach? Have we already forgotten wikileaks?

EDIT: I'm not trying to defend belief in conspiracy theories, I dismiss the vast majority of them as any sane person would. It doesn't need to be organised by a bunch of shady bankers in a room somewhere, just requires greedy men to take advantage of uneducated people and a century or two later, here we are!

If I could pose a question with slightly more forward looking direction though - is this situation at all rectifiable? - by this I mean throughout history governments and civilizations have drastically changed. There is an overwhelming arrogance of democratic perfection these days, but democracy as it is really hasn't succeeded - mainly because of the underlying problems of greed and corruption. It would surely be wrong too assume more changes aren't to come. I just fear they would be for the worst.
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Unread 31 Aug 2011, 13:11   #24
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Re: World Enslavement - On the fly.

P.S. Sorry, making massive edits of my posts is one of my bad forum habits.
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Unread 31 Aug 2011, 13:21   #25
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Re: World Enslavement - On the fly.

I'm also terribly for making edits, so rather than add this to my previous post:

http://www.publiceye.org/conspire/fl...l_Reserve.html

I was doing some digging, but I'm now going to have to try and double check the validity of the above link as well.
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Unread 31 Aug 2011, 13:34   #26
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Re: World Enslavement - On the fly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
What annoys me is this.

Partly, what you say is true. Yes, rich people want poor people to remain poor. Yes, globalization as it's currently being implemented is not actually good for most people. You hide it so deep in the anus of conspiracy theory, I'm shoulder deep and can barely get them out, but when you hint at that part, I agree with you.

But then you get to the crazy stuff. Shady backrooms where our corporate overlords plot our demise, ready to murder whoever stands in their way, keeping the sheeple down by poisoning their minds with commercials and war and sports and nationalism in a giant plan to take over the world. That's where you lose me. Because it just isn't true.
I now see your point of view

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
How do I know it isn't? Because there's no need for them to go underground and plot and scheme. The horrible things that are being done are out in the open and very well documented. The British East India Company, the Dutch one, United Fruit, the military-industrial complex in general; these things are not secrets, because they don't need to be.
Aye, Some folk can see It (as you described above) and some can't ... currently there isn't enough folk who can see It for the staus quo to change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
So when you echo far out conspiracy theories about the assassination of JFK (which in any case was a fairly minor event), the only thing I can think of is this. When otherwise intelligent people go on and on about how 9/11 was an inside job, I can only roll my eyes and wish they'd spend their effort dealing with the real problems.
I agree ... I really don't want JFK and assassination in this thread in any major detail. I don't want to get compartmentalised.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
And in closing, just a bit of advice: when you act like everyone who disagrees with you is just a fool who's buying into the party line (as you're doing here), you're just going to end up looking like an elitist prick; if your goal is convincing people of the terrible danger, then that might not be the way to go. Do with that what you will.
Totally get what you are saying, What would be your suggestion to continue?
(open question to all and would like to hear your thoughts)
You are right Mz I don't want to look like an Elitist prick, I am hoping to learn from this myself as I don't have all the answers.

edit -

/me reads up on Zeyi's posts
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Unread 31 Aug 2011, 14:27   #27
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Re: World Enslavement - On the fly.

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Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
Subject to your status ... the good old Expatriation Tax.
I made a longish edit that pretty much explains why for an average person (the people you're concerned about here) the tax duty is insignificant: sure, yes, you're going to struggle to find a country where you don't have to pay any taxes, but you're somewhat free to 'choose' to which country you pay your taxes to, as of residence. I don't really personally see anything alarming here.

ps. how are the income tax progressions in US anyways?

"Your average annual net income tax for the 5 years ending before the date of expatriation or termination of residency is more than a specified amount that is adjusted for inflation ($139,000 for 2008; $145,000 for 2009 and 2010).
Your net worth is $2 million or more on the date of your expatriation or termination of residency."

For the expat linked to concern you you'd need to be filthy rich or on filthy high income to begin with.



People with above the threshold net income are really the 'rich elite' you're so heavily lined up against. Please read the edit on my prior post. I can understand discussing conspiracy theories but let's at least stick to a degree of facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley
Here is a Brief summary
Kennedy made various speeches speaking out against the elite
Yes this was discussed in Zeitgeist, probably.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Yes, rich people want poor people to remain poor. Yes, globalization as it's currently being implemented is not actually good for most people
Here's my five cents on globalization:
Colonization and imperialism were in effect a transfer from them (negroes) to us (whites). Globalization is a transfer from the average households to the "capitalist owners". If you want to be a realist, what ultimately allows globalization to do this is the unusual suspects: the general public. By holding on to silly nationalism and not being able to export trade unions in a similar fashion where corporations offshore outsource business functions, the general public is considering which shoes to wear when the corporate world is halfway through the marathon.

In essence, these are both the same thing, however, the people that are crying wolf now probably weren't the ones crying wolf when they were a part of the benefiting party.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley
One of the aims of the agenda is a 1 world government and a 1 world currency.
It's going to be curious to see whether the Chinese will give up on renminbi, or the Americans will give up on their dollar. I wouldn't bet on this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeyi
I reiterate a question mentioned in one of the videos "Why isn't monetary theory taught in schools or colleges?"
Why don't people simply settle it out before taking a massive loan for a house? You could try teach it in schools, but, probably, most people still wouldn't care.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeyi
http://www.publiceye.org/conspire/flaherty/Federal_Reserve.html
A PhD of economics probably has a better clue than an anonymous youtube poster yes. It's nice you've found someone who has a knowledge of the monetary history of the US in a political sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeyi
Come off as incredibly condescending, especially when it's laughable you preach economics with sources like it means anything compared to a sound scientific study
Here's the problem with 'layman youtube videos' - they neglect facts. A lot of layman statements neglect facts. Like, the expat tax - arguing that a person moving abroad from US and residing abroad permanently needs to pay a double tax is somewhat incoherent with the actual system. Yes, there is an expat tax in basically all tax systems: however, it isn't really interesting from the point of view of an average worker moving abroad. Yes, it can be interesting if you earn hundreds of thousands as yearly salary (which many do not). The people who do, most likely circumvent expat in some creative fashion.

Calling it world enslavement just sounds. Really, really out of touch.

ps. Honestly, what else are these youtube videos but preaching something that has nothing to do with 'a sound scientific study'? The first signal of it not really being sound scientific study is that the author's doing a lot to retain anonymity. Probably because the banking elite would assassinate him should they find it out.

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Unread 31 Aug 2011, 14:57   #28
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Re: World Enslavement - On the fly.

By the way, if you're interested in doing more research on the subject 'money as debt' and world enslavement, the author of the youtube films has a variety of products he's willing to sell you for the price of an average hollywood film DVD.


Which one's the author though, tsiporah or 'artist and videographer Paul Grignon'?

I had the time to actually watch the first video in full.

"The four big questions":

1. Why governments borrow money from banks instead of printing money?
Robert Mugabe alone knows.

2. Why create money as debt?
The temporal component.

3. About perpetual growth?
Yes, it's mad. I've probably spoken about over-optimistic expectations already.

4. Are we dependent on it?
No. However, if we've borrowed heavily - exchanged a lot of future income for current spending (this is the temporal component of debt), and assumed our future income will rise fast enough to cover this debt, then yes, we get reasonably assed by lack of growth.

The key problem here is: if lending was against reasonable expectations of future income, what would it mean in terms of this 'debt enslavement'? Surely it would become nigh impossible. The only way to 'debt enslave' yourself is to live heavily over your means through the temporal component of debt, or heavily misjudge your future ability to pay your debt. Even the second video (money as debt II) starts up with neglecting the temporal component. It does however ponder how people (who never had the "real coins" in the first place) who bought their houses err lost them!

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Unread 31 Aug 2011, 15:44   #29
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Re: World Enslavement - On the fly.

Quote:
Honestly, what else are these youtube videos but preaching something that has nothing to do with 'a sound scientific study'? The first signal of it not really being sound scientific study is that the author's doing a lot to retain anonymity. Probably because the banking elite would assassinate him should they find it out.
Well that's the point of discussing them is it not? It's economics, this isn't a science. No-one is right or wrong (presuming we don't make absurd claims ) Of course I don't need to tell you this, it seems as though you've spent considerable time studying it.

I didn't mean to say what you were saying was any less valid than these youtube videos, simply that I am very much a skeptic so I will take everything with a pinch of salt. To me an article claiming to be written by a PhD is no more valid than a youtube video. It depends on the content and sourcing. Not to mention the fact that I've never been impressed by people claims of higher education when books and daily study can easily achieve the same level of knowledge (but that's just me I guess).


Quote:
Why don't people simply settle it out before taking a massive loan for a house? You could try teach it in schools, but, probably, most people still wouldn't care.
Agreed but this is the problem. Why do people not care? If they were brought up to care they would - therefore teaching monetary theory in school could make people care. (As a child you are open to far more concepts, hence why most children are religious until they learn to think for themselves -some never do though heh). The way I see it we are alsmost taught not to care, it's never brought up in education, and when you leave school for university/college you're pretty much forced into student loans, continuing the debt trend into the next generation. Your thoughts on this?


In regards to the author selling his DVDs, it's debatable what view to take on that. He releases his videos free on the most popular network for getting videos out there so that's understandable, being on youtube doesn't make it any less valid. Neither does selling it, to make a living.
It does however raise some concern.

So from an economists point of view what are your thoughts on the alternative systems suggested?.. and do you know of any better ideas or concepts as I can't see how anyone would defend the current system as the best choice (other than maybe to say it's too late to change to anything else).
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Unread 31 Aug 2011, 15:54   #30
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Re: World Enslavement - On the fly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeyi View Post
Well that's the point of discussing them is it not? It's economics, this isn't a science. No-one is right or wrong (presuming we don't make absurd claims ) Of course I don't need to tell you this, it seems as though you've spent considerable time studying it.
It's a science in the fashion that it uses tools of such, and the vision of such, but ultimately, every economist will admit that they're not as good at predicting things as the media likes to believe.

Quote:
To me an article claiming to be written by a PhD is no more valid than a youtube video. It depends on the content and sourcing
It was actually pretty well cited (in terms of sources). Actually a decent read on the myths mentioned on it.

Quote:
Agreed but this is the problem. Why do people not care? If they were brought up to care they would - therefore teaching monetary theory in school could make people care. (As a child you are open to far more concepts, hence why most children are religious until they learn to think for themselves -some never do though heh) Your thoughts on this?
Why people don't care? In a modern western world, it probably has a lot to do with complacency. People get things so easily they don't really consider the effort, and they're really bad at perceiving the possible negative (personal) growth path. They simply don't think anything bad can happen to them, and they don't think of contingency plans.

Quote:
He releases his videos free on the most popular network for getting videos out there so that's understandable, being on youtube doesn't make it any less valid.
I'm reasonably convinced that music industry also releases a lot of videos on free on the most popular network for getting videos out there but it doesn't change the fact that their intention is to earn through this. Advertising?
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Unread 31 Aug 2011, 16:03   #31
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Re: World Enslavement - On the fly.

Sorry, I edited a couple of parts of my post while you replied - I should probably stop proof reading after hitting post. I just don't like reading it in these editable text boxes.. far more.. condensed >.<


Quote:
It was actually pretty well cited (in terms of sources). Actually a decent read on the myths mentioned on it.
Indeed it is! I just meant in general more than that article specifically. There's some others at the bottom that clear up some other "myths" regarding the federal reserve. Although I personally didn't really know anything about the federal reserve anyway.


Quote:
I'm reasonably convinced that music industry also releases a lot of videos on free on the most popular network for getting videos out there but it doesn't change the fact that their intention is to earn through this. Advertising?
I know, I know but that's my point, it doesn't make it invalid. It simply casts doubts on his motives (presuming he did this to educate people rather than for profit). Youtube vids don't actually generate profit for anyone but google unless you're part of the affiliate programme which I massively doubt the fellow who posted these is.

The important point here is we shouldn't condemn something simply due to the way it is presented to us. A factual youtube video with commentary by Carl Sagan or Stephen Hawking would be more informative for instance than a book published by a PhD in Physics that claims the Earth is still flat. Basically, we should concentrate on the credibility of the contents rather than credibility of the author or the means by which it is presented to us (otherwise we stray off topic which I have a feeling I may have done)
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Unread 31 Aug 2011, 16:22   #32
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Re: World Enslavement - On the fly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeyi View Post
So from an economists point of view what are your thoughts on the alternative systems suggested?.. and do you know of any better ideas or concepts as I can't see how anyone would defend the current system as the best choice (other than maybe to say it's too late to change to anything else).
Here's the thing: I don't see anything wrong in the current monetary system. It's not problematic to me. I don't understand the ultimate evil in it. In fact, I think it's a really good a system.

The system's vulnerabilities lie in the users, not the system. Why are people on a habit of living above their means? Because they think they're worth more than they are. More supervision might do good (and as a hindsight, this was probably the key problem with the 'shadow banking system' - lack of supervision). But that's communism.

A simple analogue can be derived from offshore outsourcing: functions are shored because the poor negro making Apple phones in the China factory does it for a fraction of the American worker, hasn't got laws to settle with the work environment, and will happily breathe lead gas. Production costs for especially labor-intensive products would soar if they'd have to be produced on white man's wage levels. This would put upwards pressure on price levels, and reduce spending power through it. I'd probably need to think this more to explain this in a more understandable fashion. This yields downwards rigid wages: which yields unemployment on short run. Companies adapt, local workers don't. The understanding that a lot of our past excesses have been built on slavery and theft through force of arms (explained extensively in Stephen D. King's book) that are no longer possible in the extent they were is key. If our excesses have come from there (and spread around the economy through Baumol's disease -like mechanisms), and the source of excesses dries out, and we've borrowed against our future income assuming we're really that good, or that the source of excesses will never dry out then...?

The short term unemployment causes systemic failure on debt payments (moreso than it's done so far)? Tosses half the system into poverty? Cutting the external value of the currency, or inflating it, all these are really artificial taxes that hit the poor and dumb. The rich and smart have means to avoid these. However, it's not going to shit on anyone who either a) has a realistic belief of his own worth, own capability on the labor market, and b) doesn't have moronic debts on future earnings.

You'd probably at some point argue why and how exactly are companies able to pull out significant profits while I'm here saying the workers in west are worth far less than they think they are? It's mentioned: the rat race between trade unions and companies. Companies are able to offshore things to China where there's no legis on it, where the workers are willingly treated like shit: as long as these opportunities are there, there will be abuse. But then again, why would a white american care what happens to a yellow chinese person.

Digital coin? Right. A very, very complicated system where you'd wind up with what accounts to millions and millions of different currencies (credit coin) the value of which is dependent on a bunch of factors (including something no less volatile and vulnerable to speculation than spot demand) and that have a limited life span? While these really complicated networks can be fascinating do you expect the general public to be able to behave any more rational than they do under the current - relatively simple in compared to the suggestion - system?

edit
Quote:
Basically, we should concentrate on the credibility of the contents rather than credibility of the author or the means by which it is presented to us (otherwise we stray off topic which I have a feeling I may have done)
But how can we even discuss them when what essentially is neglected is the fact that loans are not only about current wealth or current ability but also about future? It's an essential component. Debt yes is a promise, and it's made against not thin air, but expectations of future income.

edit2. in the video II, i'm wondering if they consider non-americans to be competing for the 'limited jobs' too, and how does this affect their one-closed-country -model?

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Unread 1 Sep 2011, 15:03   #33
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Re: World Enslavement - On the fly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
I made a longish edit that pretty much explains why for an average person (the people you're concerned about here) the tax duty is insignificant: sure, yes, you're going to struggle to find a country where you don't have to pay any taxes, but you're somewhat free to 'choose' to which country you pay your taxes to, as of residence. I don't really personally see anything alarming here.

ps. how are the income tax progressions in US anyways?

"Your average annual net income tax for the 5 years ending before the date of expatriation or termination of residency is more than a specified amount that is adjusted for inflation ($139,000 for 2008; $145,000 for 2009 and 2010).
Your net worth is $2 million or more on the date of your expatriation or termination of residency."

For the expat linked to concern you you'd need to be filthy rich or on filthy high income to begin with.


People with above the threshold net income are really the 'rich elite' you're so heavily lined up against. Please read the edit on my prior post. I can understand discussing conspiracy theories but let's at least stick to a degree of facts.
Now ask yourself what would happen if the dollar went to shit?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
Yes this was discussed in Zeitgeist, probably.
You could listen to his speeches
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy
Particularly the Address to ANPA / press
He wasn't talking about the commies

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
It's going to be curious to see whether the Chinese will give up on renminbi, or the Americans will give up on their dollar. I wouldn't bet on this.
My money is on (but not actually in reality) is on the dollar to go to shit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
A PhD of economics probably has a better clue than an anonymous youtube poster yes. It's nice you've found someone who has a knowledge of the monetary history of the US in a political sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeyi View Post
I didn't mean to say what you were saying was any less valid than these youtube videos, simply that I am very much a skeptic so I will take everything with a pinch of salt. To me an article claiming to be written by a PhD is no more valid than a youtube video. It depends on the content and sourcing. Not to mention the fact that I've never been impressed by people claims of higher education when books and daily study can easily achieve the same level of knowledge.
I difference I see between Zeyi and Keiz is I see Zeyi is keeping an open mind and is asking questions on all takes. I see Keiz as compartmentalised.

After reading, then looking at it from Edward Flaherty perspective and then asked further questions of my own. Then questioned his angle.
http://www.publiceye.org/conspire/fl...l_Reserve.html

The first thing that stood out for me without even having to do any research was his take on presidental order 11110.

Why did he not touch apon the concepts of ...
11110 would end the feds monopoly on the issuing of the usa currency?
Also the Fed would no longer have full control in setting the interest rates?
What would have happened if this money been in circulation for a long period of time? Could have this bankrupted the fed?

I then had to look into other ideas that I was aware of but lacked the vocabulary like Compound interest.

I had found other takes on his answers but the one that stood out was.
http://fskrealityguide.blogspot.com/...isited_14.html

The 2 conclusions I had come to on Edward Flaherty theis was he was either compartmentalised or his take was biased by design.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
Calling it world enslavement just sounds. Really, really out of touch.
What if there was a prison where the inmates were not aware that they are captive but also taking the role of Prison guard by conformity of the other inmates who have the desire to escape by questioning the status quo... without even realising it?

(open question / thoughts to all)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
. Honestly, what else are these youtube videos but preaching something that has nothing to do with 'a sound scientific study'? The first signal of it not really being sound scientific study is that the author's doing a lot to retain anonymity. Probably because the banking elite would assassinate him should they find it out.[/i]
All I am saying go back on history with an open mind and ask "who benefits?"
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Last edited by Paisley; 1 Sep 2011 at 15:15. Reason: tidy up - i'll respond to zeyi's posts in more detail when I have time again :)
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Unread 1 Sep 2011, 16:42   #34
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Re: World Enslavement - On the fly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
My money is on (but not actually in reality) is on the dollar to go to shit.
Why isn't your money actually in reality on it then if you're so certain?
Honestly - if you had made this prediction in the early 2000s, it'd carry some value. Post financial crisis, it's not all that impressive.


Quote:
What if there was a prison where the inmates were not aware that they are captive but also taking the role of Prison guard by conformity of the other inmates who have the desire to escape by questioning the status quo... without even realising it?
The problem really isn't the monetary system. I've tried to argue this, but obviously we're just running circles, because we're unable to discuss anything else but the monetary system - and even it, we're discussing in an extremely limited scope.

Quote:
All I am saying go back on history with an open mind and ask "who benefits?"
I'll answer you: the rich and the powerful.
The rich and the powerful have benefited from the poor and the weak throughout the history of humanity, and a brief 40 year spell of 'modern monetary system' post Bretton Woods doesn't make an exception. In fact, the era of the modern monetary system is one of the first incidents of when things have actually been, for a brief while, less dramatic - during the mid 20th century or so. Correlation, causality? Probably first, unlikely second - in either of the cases. After having a cigarette, I'll take that back. In fact, during that era, it was the rich and powerful benefiting from poor and weak as it's always been.

Let me rephrase: was the 'prison' slaves were in during the mid 1000s made by the monetary system? Or the prison non-native Athens were in the 'golden era of Greece'?
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Unread 2 Sep 2011, 16:05   #35
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Re: World Enslavement - On the fly.

Without reading or watching all of it:

I find it funny that the Federal Reserve is neither Federal nor is it a reserve. It just prints money and gives it to the USA which spread this worthless paper around the world. The illusion that this paper is worth anything is kept alive by common media and all country chiefs involved.
The only winner is the FED who gives money and gets interests for it. In fact the FED controls the global monetary sector. The USA and other politicians are muppets/actors who have to credibly act like they are told. Anyone who thinks that Obama doesn't follow the same lords as Bush should compare promisses/real politics. You'll see that they both follow the same agenda.
Now there are a lot of conspiracy theories around, from which most I think aren't theories any more. Our free media has become a whore propaganda organ of the criminals which lead countries. Our leaders do everything to make us dependant on help and less self sustaining.

At the end we will be a huge manpower pool who are grateful for any work.

you see i brought this quick to an end as I don't have more time now but I'll follow this
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Unread 5 Sep 2011, 18:41   #36
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Re: World Enslavement - On the fly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
I had found other takes on his answers but the one that stood out was.
http://fskrealityguide.blogspot.com/...isited_14.html

I'm not sure if this person you're quoting should be considered compartmentalized or biased but.

"The legitimacy of the Federal Reserve is the same as all other aspects of the government: ZERO."

"Has that happened also? Is Blackwater effectively the US military now?"

"Government has no legitimacy, so arguing the legitimacy of the Federal Reserve is pointless in comparison."

" Just because the Supreme Court or a Federal appeals court says something is acceptable, doesn't automatically mean it's true. Just like Congress and the President were subverted, the court system was also subverted."


How can you fight this with reasonable arguments?
If we simply decide to back our arguments with the "fact" that the entire nation is essentially "subverted" then any serious person will simply have to lift their hands up in the air and yield. There's no point. To his credit, he does state it himself - but this kind of arguing is the mother of all strawmen.

"The Federal Reserve's open market operations have never been audited. The full details are carefully kept secret."

This has to do with the theory of central banking (I'm not going to go into details - say, L.E.O Svensson has written a lot on the subject of inflation targeting, and it has to do with this). Government audits also do not necessarily have to be public. All of this is moot, however, since after the article was written, Fed has had quite a bit of a change in their policy on open market operations.

Additionally, any such charge on Fed would simply be about Fed - anyone following the field could for example point out the transparency principles of the European Central Bank to explain that this isn't what everyone in the monetary system do. In fact, ECB do what they do for a purpose - and Fed seems to have started to somewhat follow suit.

"This is entirely the whole point of the Compound Interest Paradox. Every dollar in circulation only exists due to a loan. The principal is created but not the interest.

In January 2008, the Federal Reserve announced a surprise 0.75% decrease in the Fed Funds Rate. People who knew in advance profited immensely.
"

We've heard this a few times now. Still, it persists on ignoring the temporal component of the a) loan and the b) economy.

The second paragraph is simply quoted to again emphasize difference on different central banking systems. There were reasons why central banks used to apply 'shocks' to economies. There's debate on which is the correct way to function - either way, European Central Bank is extremely predictable (and it's a part of their strategy).

"Whenever Congress wants to, it could pass a law allowing it to directly print and spend money to pay down the national debt."

However, if they really wanted, they could also just devalue the dollar. There's really nothing that'd prevent them from doing it - they wouldn't even have to go as far as to print money. All in all, it's obviously a tax to those people who hold dollar currency. Namely, households (internally). None of this is 'shocking' or 'new' - say, Finland used to devalue frequently, even though it wasn't 'really allowed'. It was done to kick gear into exports, and it was more or less a direct transaction from households to export companies.

"Money directly printed and spent by the government prevents the Compound Interest Paradox from enslaving everyone."

Really. Robert Mugabe tried this in Zimbabwe. He was somewhat limited in his success.

"This is a legal technicality. I don't recognize the US Constitution as having legitimacy, so why should I care if it allows unbacked fiat money or not."

Again. How do you argue with this? Please?
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Unread 10 Sep 2011, 16:44   #37
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Re: World Enslavement - On the fly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
Why isn't your money actually in reality on it then if you're so certain?
Honestly - if you had made this prediction in the early 2000s, it'd carry some value. Post financial crisis, it's not all that impressive.
Because I was still asleep in the early 2000's going out to piss my wages up against the wall (drinking at bars etc) and I have only waken up in the last several years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
The problem really isn't the monetary system. I've tried to argue this, but obviously we're just running circles, because we're unable to discuss anything else but the monetary system - and even it, we're discussing in an extremely limited scope.
Acknowledging the concept of The Issue of money at interest (loaned out) and the only means to pay it off is more money with the same debt issued money at interest ofcourse from the only means to pay the debt off (also known as a monopoly) and its snowballing effect.

Until you do then you can't move on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
I'll answer you: the rich and the powerful.
The rich and the powerful have benefited from the poor and the weak throughout the history of humanity, and a brief 40 year spell of 'modern monetary system' post Bretton Woods doesn't make an exception. In fact, the era of the modern monetary system is one of the first incidents of when things have actually been, for a brief while, less dramatic - during the mid 20th century or so. Correlation, causality? Probably first, unlikely second - in either of the cases. After having a cigarette, I'll take that back. In fact, during that era, it was the rich and powerful benefiting from poor and weak as it's always been.
Refering to the above answer... Until folk can see that they are being taxed (partially or directly depending on the taxation means) as a result of the above that trend will continue.

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Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
Let me rephrase: was the 'prison' slaves were in during the mid 1000s made by the monetary system? Or the prison non-native Athens were in the 'golden era of Greece'?
Usuary (lending money out at interest in ancient times) was banned in most places... Some folk of that time might have seen it as evil?
Now ask yourself what happens when you can't see the forest for the trees.

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"Has that happened also? Is Blackwater effectively the US military now?"
They do have alot work from the US government in Iraq, afghanistan and in america aswell.
Now what was blackwater doing in the USA?

http://www.ustraining.com/new/index.asp
have a look on their website and then do some research in their role of hurricane katrina

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Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
"Government has no legitimacy, so arguing the legitimacy of the Federal Reserve is pointless in comparison."

"Just because the Supreme Court or a Federal appeals court says something is acceptable, doesn't automatically mean it's true. Just like Congress and the President were subverted, the court system was also subverted."
[/i]
I am Glad you are now starting to ask questions... now to get you started on finding the answers for yourself.

Constitution

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-taU9d26wT4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsLjN...eature=related
http://www.infowars.com/new-orleans-...-confiscation/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_...s_Constitution

Government

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Congress
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_914538.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91QEIenOeY0

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Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
How can you fight this with reasonable arguments?
If we simply decide to back our arguments with the "fact" that the entire nation is essentially "subverted" then any serious person will simply have to lift their hands up in the air and yield. There's no point. To his credit, he does state it himself - but this kind of arguing is the mother of all strawmen.
I would like everyone to look into the above URLs

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Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
"The Federal Reserve's open market operations have never been audited. The full details are carefully kept secret."

This has to do with the theory of central banking (I'm not going to go into details - say, L.E.O Svensson has written a lot on the subject of inflation targeting, and it has to do with this). Government audits also do not necessarily have to be public. All of this is moot, however, since after the article was written, Fed has had quite a bit of a change in their policy on open market operations.

"This is entirely the whole point of the Compound Interest Paradox. Every dollar in circulation only exists due to a loan. The principal is created but not the interest.

In January 2008, the Federal Reserve announced a surprise 0.75% decrease in the Fed Funds Rate. People who knew in advance profited immensely.
"
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Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
We've heard this a few times now. Still, it persists on ignoring the temporal component of the a) loan and the b) economy.
Good old boom and bust and how it is used to consolidate wealth from the rich/in the club from the others.
Question keiz... Did you take the time to look into USA from the 1920's to the early 1930's ?

The second paragraph is simply quoted to again emphasize difference on different central banking systems. There were reasons why central banks used to apply 'shocks' to economies. There's debate on which is the correct way to function - either way, European Central Bank is extremely predictable (and it's a part of their strategy).

"Whenever Congress wants to, it could pass a law allowing it to directly print and spend money to pay down the national debt."

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Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
However, if they really wanted, they could also just devalue the dollar. There's really nothing that'd prevent them from doing it - they wouldn't even have to go as far as to print money. All in all, it's obviously a tax to those people who hold dollar currency. Namely, households (internally). None of this is 'shocking' or 'new' - say, Finland used to devalue frequently, even though it wasn't 'really allowed'. It was done to kick gear into exports, and it was more or less a direct transaction from households to export companies.
I'll take the time to look into the history of finland's money.

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"Money directly printed and spent by the government prevents the Compound Interest Paradox from enslaving everyone."

Really. Robert Mugabe tried this in Zimbabwe. He was somewhat limited in his success.
Good question, I had to take the time to look into this to why the colonial scrip of a young USA seen unpresidented growth in its time and how zimbabwean fiat dollar failed...

So what happens when there is rampant corruption in a country
(What I would call corruption ...
Corruption is a general concept describing any organised, interdependent system in which part of the system is either not performing duties it was originally intended to, or performing them in an improper way, to the detriment of the system's original purpose. Political corruption, meanwhile, refers to dysfunctions of a political system or institution in which politically elected officials seek illegitimate personal gain through actions such as bribery, extortion, cronyism, nepotism, patronage, graft, and embezzlement.)

Also is dependent on international aid and when that aid stops through sanctions as a result through Mugabe's policies like land reform.
Then there is a lost of Confidence in the government issued currency when the people had no confidence in the Government itself?
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Unread 11 Sep 2011, 06:53   #38
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Re: World Enslavement - On the fly.

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Good old boom and bust and how it is used to consolidate wealth from the rich/in the club from the others.
Question keiz... Did you take the time to look into USA from the 1920's to the early 1930's ?
I am vaguely familiar with the 1930s depression, and the before-and-after.

However, what I'd consider more important, is taking the time to look into the current situation in places other than the US Fed - because, sadly, world enslavement isn't strictly bound to a single sovereign nation's central bank. Basing all and every argument about the subject on Fed is a bit of an offshoot.
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Unread 12 Sep 2011, 09:08   #39
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Re: World Enslavement - On the fly.

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I am vaguely familiar with the 1930s depression, and the before-and-after.

However, what I'd consider more important, is taking the time to look into the current situation in places other than the US Fed - because, sadly, world enslavement isn't strictly bound to a single sovereign nation's central bank. Basing all and every argument about the subject on Fed is a bit of an offshoot.
I'm going to get into how this is done via bankrupting a country.
However Im going to go back on Zeyi's points first.
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Unread 12 Sep 2011, 09:25   #40
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Re: World Enslavement - On the fly.

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I'm going to get into how this is done via bankrupting a country.
Case Greece? It's done via having the population spend vastly more resources than they have on a consistent basis, and winding up in a situation where nobody believes they'll be able to repay the resources they've spent (see: Squanderville and Thriftville). I don't really see the link to Fed here, but I do see a strong link to overshooting optimism on one's current and future status (a bit of a Nassim Taleb -way of thinking). Historically speaking, this has happened with and without the invention of central banking, even the Romans managed to debase their currency. Their problem was similar to US's in the esque that they could not effectively expand to profit anymore (see: Stephen King and the talk about the end of imperialism and colonialism).
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Unread 12 Sep 2011, 09:49   #41
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Re: World Enslavement - On the fly.

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Case Greece? It's done via having the population spend vastly more resources than they have on a consistent basis, and winding up in a situation where nobody believes they'll be able to repay the resources they've spent (see: Squanderville and Thriftville). I don't really see the link to Fed here, but I do see a strong link to overshooting optimism on one's current and future status (a bit of a Nassim Taleb -way of thinking). Historically speaking, this has happened with and without the invention of central banking, even the Romans managed to debase their currency. Their problem was similar to US's in the esque that they could not effectively expand to profit anymore (see: Stephen King and the talk about the end of imperialism and colonialism).
I can see France for example having their credit rating lowered very soon.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-0...y-moody-s.html
How other countries have interlocking interests and if one starts to go there is other knock on effects.

I'll take the time to read those 2 books you have suggested ...It just isn't a casual read
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Unread 12 Sep 2011, 14:04   #42
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Re: World Enslavement - On the fly.

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How other countries have interlocking interests and if one starts to go there is other knock on effects

Yes. As interesting as it gets, the history of human kind is full of prisons overseen by the strong in order to control the weak. It's almost Focault'esque.
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Unread 26 Sep 2011, 15:54   #43
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Re: World Enslavement - On the fly.

I haven't forgotten about this thread, as soon as I read up on keiz's suggested books I'll reply to the thread
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Unread 26 Sep 2011, 16:22   #44
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Re: World Enslavement - On the fly.

by then Greece will have been torn asunder and we'll have discovered a whole lot of new conspiracy theories on why this happened, none of them discussing just quite how dumb it is to lend over your capacity and have an atrociously corrupt a social welfare system combined with crappy labor market and shit worker effort.
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Unread 26 Sep 2011, 16:38   #45
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Re: World Enslavement - On the fly.

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by then Greece will have been torn asunder and we'll have discovered a whole lot of new conspiracy theories on why this happened, none of them discussing just quite how dumb it is to lend over your capacity and have an atrociously corrupt a social welfare system combined with crappy labor market and shit worker effort.
The estimates for greece to run out of money is mid to late October so I have a bit of time
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