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Unread 27 May 2011, 22:31   #51
nolezy
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Re: Cheaters?

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Originally Posted by zFerg View Post
I have a suggestion for r42 round name.

Planetarion, round 42: And he who findeth the best crashers, may win
Too wordy. How about R42: Left For Dead.
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Unread 27 May 2011, 22:47   #52
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Re: Cheaters?

Lol that a good one Nolez.

Round 42:who jagex?
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Unread 27 May 2011, 23:10   #53
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Re: Cheaters?

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Originally Posted by Influence View Post
TGV had 3 'pairs' of ppl on the exception system last round. None of em got closed. This means you clearly CAN play together when on exceptions. You just have to be a little more sensible about it.
I didn't say you couldn't did I? I said the restrictions were unnecessary and unneeded and put people off playing the game. If you get 1 person who finds PA plays likes it, and invites his friends they will all get closed and quit. The rest of us have no knowledge of that ever happening.

Likewise they could do the same, realise they need exceptions and get exceptions then play with the silly restrictions, if they accidentally break them potentially get closed. Either way it's not fun, you want unrestricted access with your friends.

So why can't PA by like every other game where you can play with friends without any restrictions? VNC provides a way for people to cheat if they wanted to anyway, why make it easy for cheaters and harder for legitimate players?
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Unread 27 May 2011, 23:25   #54
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Re: Cheaters?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeyi View Post
As an example, I have at least 2 friends who'd play PA if I wasn't already using at least 2 IPs the same as them. Making it impossible for us to work together (the restrictions on exceptions are stupid for an online game). The only way for us to do this would be for us all to setup external SSH tunnels at different IPs just to be able to play PA together (Then probably get banned for multi-ing knowing MH).
In todays world of WMMOs, several people sharing an IP is a very common thing.
Look east, towards Asia. In ManagerLeague today, we have about several thousand users from countries like Vietnam, Indonesia and Malaysia. These are countries where IP-addresses (IP4 mind you) are scarce. You won't find a home-connection with it's own IP. The culture there is to meet up at gaming-cafes to hang out and play games. The cafe is lucky if it has it's own IP at all, a single one! And as they "play together", suddenly you have 25 accounts logging in from the same IP during say 15 minutes.
Many of them use their [email protected] as email, so they sure look alike. All the computers at the cafe has the same software installed too, so even their useragents are the same. But this is the reality.
An anti-cheat-solution must never be based on IP as evidence. It is worthless.
And if you want to get around it, use TOR, VNC or whatever. With a TOR-plugin in FireFox, I can click one button to change to a different node. Bang, new IP.

But why is it any better to let 50 people work closely together in an alliance, talking together in their own private chat, launching together, defending together, than to have 5 guys in a dorm do the same?
If 1 person playing 2 planets can cause such a big impact, it is the game mechanics that are wrong. You can throw 100 multihunters at the problem, but it will not solve the real issue.

Original PA was even more vulnerable than it is today, due to it's "naive and unrestricted nature". But you can not make games like that anymore. You need to "pick a side". You either make a one on one game, or you make a true MMO. In a true MMO, cooperation is key, cooperation is REQUIRED, and players should not be thrown out if the cooperation is not done under the "right circumstances".

Of course, I agree that one needs things like bot-protection, mostly to avoid technical issues and someone creating thousands of accounts to just hog down the system for fun. But my point remains, a person playing 3 accounts should have very little impact in the bigger picture, where the universe is dominated by huge alliances with 75 members.

Oh heck, whatever...
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Unread 27 May 2011, 23:34   #55
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Re: Cheaters?

this is why, for me, the alliance points system needs to be developed further. stop showing alliance score/size etc and just show members and alliance score. planets/gals still win in normal way but alliances win through the points system. sure it needs some work, as you seem to get too much for defending and not enough for attacking. however, stop alliance score having any relevance and make it all about alliance points.
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Unread 27 May 2011, 23:44   #56
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Re: Cheaters?

I wont quote your entire post Spinner for sake of space but thanks for a large scale example of what I was talking about

Pretty much hits the nail on head of the problem I was talking about because in PA people in those places if they tried to play without an exception would presumably get closed relatively fast - which is immensely upsetting with a diminishing player base.

Also a direct quote from the manual -
Quote:
If two or more people play from the same IP address, it is obligatory to apply for an exception.
- seems to show they do still use IP addresses
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Unread 28 May 2011, 00:08   #57
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Re: Cheaters?

The question is though, whether the game can be changed enough to cater for a modern internet and still be "Planetarion"....
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Unread 28 May 2011, 00:13   #58
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Re: Cheaters?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeyi View Post
I wont quote your entire post Spinner for sake of space but thanks for a large scale example of what I was talking about

Pretty much hits the nail on head of the problem I was talking about because in PA people in those places if they tried to play without an exception would presumably get closed relatively fast - which is immensely upsetting with a diminishing player base.

Also a direct quote from the manual - - seems to show they do still use IP addresses
it's not as if the manual is a solid resource for anything anymore tho...
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Unread 28 May 2011, 00:23   #59
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Re: Cheaters?

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Originally Posted by Influence View Post
it's not as if the manual is a solid resource for anything anymore tho...
Unless MH post here we have no better source of information. If you're suggesting the manual is outdated, then no doubt the way they track players is too.

Even government authorities have recognised IP address aren't a way to track an individual user. Which is why IP can't be used in court against File Sharers, as the culprit could be anyone from the bill payer to a family member, or visitor even a random passerby (if they have unsecured, or poorly secured wireless).

The problem is still there, genuine players should be restricted because of cheaters - I can't see this being viable in any successful online game.
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Unread 28 May 2011, 07:42   #60
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Re: Cheaters?

While capping salvage and all sounds good, wouldn't it be even better to just limit score to [tick-roids*250+xp*60], while value remains the same? Losing ships would still suck, while defending can still net you more ships to defend roids.

Pretty sure this has been suggested before, though.
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Unread 28 May 2011, 09:15   #61
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Re: Cheaters?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeyi View Post
Not possible. VNC (if done properly) is completely undetectable to a browser game like PA.
Yes. This is very much true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Keiz, remember, most of the people around nowadays weren't around in the 1up days (me included). Perhaps you could take the opportunity to tell that story. Again.
I see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoever
Planetarion, round 42: And he who findeth the best crashers, may win
The thing is, it has always (probably vast majority of rounds played, really) been about cheating and not getting caught or finding a method to exploit that the particular multihunter in charge will allow. It's highly beneficial if you promise the multihunter that when he quits MHing he'll become an officer in your top rank alliance or if he's been one before. These both count towards your 'positive MH vibes' agenda.

What this game needs is a complete rethink of what is allowed and whatnot and a ****ing goodbye to the MH system as it is now.
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Unread 28 May 2011, 11:09   #62
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Re: Cheaters?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reincarnate View Post
i agree pod farming is bad but i wouldnt consider it a major problem. i am against all cheating but value gaining crashes can have a significant effect on the round.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killeah View Post
Idd, Pod farming is minor compared to 20% of value leaps in the last week of the round.
Edit - added salvage incase anyone feels like being a fanny and points out that pod farming is the same as donating.
I totally agree with ya lads there. (salvage) Donations are a greater evil than pod farming.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
No, not really, as it was all under multihunter supervision and none of it was cheating. Miraculously enough, the biggest crashes weren't even on my planet.

I mean, you're being really, really naive aren't you.
If the playerbase had the same morality as rein, we wouldn't need a multihunter (MH) team You might call him naive keiz, I would call rein honest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
Good luck finding competent unbiased MH staff to work this out.
Not being unfair to Remy and fiery when they where the head MHs I don't think it is fair to comment on their performance when I have little or no recollection of their reign.

I do significantly remember Assassin's reign as Head MH
He simply didn't give a flying XXXX who (regardless of their standing) he closed if he thinks someone did wrong beyond reasonable doubt he closed them.... that in itself was a deterent / put the fear factor into cheating.
Which IMO is currently lacking.
Whilst cheating through the backdoor was still done (as I am not saying Assassin eliminated all cheating) Some may argue that the Support planet rule was a political gimmick, for myself being in subh which was a minor alliance at the time and didn't use vsh/other "support planets" it was a great way to ensure fairness was carried out.

I do recall on occasion receiving out of tag/gal/cluster defence (when this was implimented) on my attacks. The target then thinking his call was covered.
I wait until eta 4 then go to #multihunters and then *ahem* report the offending fleets got them removed and hey presto my attack was now landable as the round progressed this happened less and less because the folk who were using these "support planets" got wise to it I.E. That their incs aren't covered as it seems.
I enjoyed playing my part in helping out the Multihunters in this aspect.

From my point of view Assassin was a compentent and unbiased MH but I am not sure if Ex 1up/Exil players would say the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
You then probably also understand that this is already at least the past of the game.

And to achieve it permissions to 'use support planets that are not really support planets' and other such bollocks have been acquired from the MH staff.

I can't believe this shit debate still goes on, but I can believe the official answer is going to be the same as ever.
What I can say is where MHs / morality of not cheating fails....
Compensate via Ingame mechanics.

last major example I can think of is from r35

For this round we are also trialling the following changes:
A planet in an alliance can only be defended by other members of the alliance or his galaxy
Cluster ETA bonus for defence removed.
(reference http://www.clawofdarkness.com/pawiki/index.php/Round_35 )

Not only did it stop cheating via folk setting up "support planets" just for the sole purpose of building a certain ship type to defend certain planets.
It help reduce pollution of the quality of the playerbase, don't know about the rest of you but I got sick exiling these type of planets out of my gal just to get a legitimate PA player who come on to IRC, join the gal channel and actually be a contributing gal mate.
But It also enduced fi/co heavy rounds just to negate out of tag/gal/cluster defence. (Explanation available apon request)

As I seem to keep preaching ... take away the gain from it you take away the motive.
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Unread 28 May 2011, 13:32   #63
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Re: Cheaters?

a formula needs to be created so that salvage decreases the higher value you have as a planet, so at the end of the round the say top 30 value planets will gain marginally little from salvage gained from crashes but lower down, the planets where the battle is a little less 1 way, gain more from salvage to replace ship losses on own side like it is now, we help smaller value planets and also prehibit gains of a large magnitude on the big value planets.

there's always going to be crashes, people who calc wrong, people who are stuck outside and can't login, people oversleep, people do sometimes just wanna see some action, so you can't try and stop that.

But you can stop high value gains on high value planets by using a formula in relation to planet value compared with average planet value etc

You maths boys work something out. I'll prlly get ignored but it is solution
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Unread 28 May 2011, 14:52   #64
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Re: Cheaters?

Accountsharing / multies is NOT a problem. It doesnt really affect anything. The big problem is the possibility to get massive scoregains from defending vs crashes ( or to do like me, and do +value attacks ). Remove these, and the fight for #1 might - MIGHT, not be as much of a joke as it currently is.
Cheating is not a main reason why people stop playing planetarion though, so this entire discussion is a waste :/
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Unread 28 May 2011, 15:28   #65
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Re: Cheaters?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caj View Post
a formula needs to be created so that salvage decreases the higher value you have as a planet
Derp. There already is, though not as severe as yours would be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manual
Total Salvage = base_salvage * (1 + race_bonus/100)) * (1 + score_modifier/100)

Score Modifier = 50%*(1-your_planet_score/average_top20_planet_score)
So yea, if you haven't been adding a defending planet's score these past ~10 rounds, you probably ****ed up somewhere.
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Unread 28 May 2011, 15:38   #66
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Re: Cheaters?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
The thing is, it has always (probably vast majority of rounds played, really) been about cheating and not getting caught or finding a method to exploit that the particular multihunter in charge will allow. It's highly beneficial if you promise the multihunter that when he quits MHing he'll become an officer in your top rank alliance or if he's been one before. These both count towards your 'positive MH vibes' agenda.

What this game needs is a complete rethink of what is allowed and whatnot and a ****ing goodbye to the MH system as it is now.
Qft.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishmaster View Post
Cheating is not a main reason why people stop playing planetarion though, so this entire discussion is a waste :/
Guess that depends on your definition of 'main reason' but, we've had this discussion many times before. I would tend to disagree that it doesn't have a negative impact on the size of the player base and the overall quality of the game.
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Unread 29 May 2011, 00:50   #67
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Re: Cheaters?

At this point I do not think that the PA team can make the changes proposed for this round
We have to appeal to the conscience and the moral of the players
Everyone knows if you did or did not cheat and have in your consciousness that your victory is false or true

I hope that the PA team read this Thread and implement the necessary changes
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Unread 1 Jun 2011, 16:27   #68
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Re: Cheaters?

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Originally Posted by Kolla View Post
.....
We have to appeal to the conscience and the moral of the players ....

Haha, like that's gonna happen, this lot have the Morals of an alley cat.
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