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Unread 15 May 2011, 18:07   #1
Caj
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Bring back single targetting

Why bring back single targetting?

Easier to play
Easier to land
Less reliance on teamups

With the game at its state today, it should be made easier and more accessible to more people. Basically the game is too complicated, the best players love complication as it gives them more options to stay ahead, but the weaker ones just crash and quit. And as a result PA is dieing, single targetting could be a possibility to improve it, as long as XP is kept under wraps and the value play option is still THE BEST way to win.

Yes with single targetting there will be more holes but there should be more zero loss defence ships to compensate for this.
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Unread 16 May 2011, 06:32   #2
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Re: Bring back single targetting

I suggest you take a look at beta stats, then.

Although I personally find MT in itself to be way more interesting, I do think with the current number of planets playing it's much better for the game to be ST.
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Unread 16 May 2011, 07:27   #3
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Re: Bring back single targetting

beta stats just say another cath co overOPed round - same old story = if were gonna change the targetting atleast change the effectiveness of races too. Cath has been strong for too many rounds now
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Unread 16 May 2011, 08:56   #4
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Re: Bring back single targetting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
beta stats just say another cath co overOPed round - same old story = if were gonna change the targetting atleast change the effectiveness of races too. Cath has been strong for too many rounds now
Thanks for the arguments, you have some really good and helpful points! That last nonfact especially.
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Unread 16 May 2011, 10:38   #5
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Re: Bring back single targetting

Note to statmaker : not every ship HAS to have a t2 (~or even a t3)
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Unread 16 May 2011, 12:24   #6
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Re: Bring back single targetting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
Thanks for the arguments, you have some really good and helpful points! That last nonfact especially.
There is some truth in it tho, no need for cath to have 4 fi/co EMP ships... At least one of em should be a normal ship. And don't change the spider to normal ship but let them have a normal ship in their roidingfleet for a change.

At a first glance i'd make a normal ship out of the viper, improving the viability of etd FR. And make the scarab init 2.
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Last edited by Influence; 16 May 2011 at 12:38. Reason: added suggestions
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Unread 16 May 2011, 19:50   #7
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Re: Bring back single targetting

Ok ill try and be more specific - there is 4 viable de/fr fleets - 2 of them dont target co - fair enough - but the viper and scarab are highly effective against de/fr according to the bcalc.

Im not saying the stats are bad Patrikc - i personally prefer fleets that have holes and ST round in general - im just bored of the same old EVERYONE GO CATH FI/CO every round - its boring.

There is a lot of fi targetting ships it seems yet only 1 viable fi roiding fleet and even that gets pwned to buggery by the caths.

It just seems we rehash the same old thoughts on races and apply the same arguements... 'cath must be strong because it cant kill you and is easy roids' yet we invariably still have mountains of cath fi/co fleets littering the top 100 cos its so oped


You could argue there is masses of Terran BS in top 100 this round instead but yet again because it was monstrously oped. JUst make fleets even powered and then see what happens - hopefully ppl will then start choosing races on what 'special abiliy' they have rather than just cos they smash everything in sight
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Unread 17 May 2011, 01:29   #8
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Re: Bring back single targetting

This is the part I have a problem with though - you claim that Cath Co has been so overpowered these last few rounds.

Code:
        caths @
        top 100 
r41  -  15 (3 top 50)
r40  -  20
r39  -  2
r38  -  11
r37  -  14 (ST)
r35  -  11 (ST)
There's only been one round recently where Cath was represented by 20%+ in the top 100. And I'm pretty sure their efficiencies were close to if not better than the current ones in Beta. Cath is and always will be popular due to EMP, but at the same time it is its own downfall.

I like the idea of a normal Viper, thanks, though I'll think about it some more before I change it. Fr/De is already quite good, really, and I think Etd would actually be off worse if Viper became normal. It would mean they'd have to invest more in Brokers, rather than just enough to deter Caths (since they'd have to deal substantial damage to Cat Co to actually kill a decent amount of Viper).

And thanks for the feedback Kaiba. Even if I don't fully agree with you, it still gives me a different perspective to consider.

Suggestions for an extra Xan ship are very welcome (or if you think they're fine as is, speak up).

Keep it coming!

Last edited by Patrikc; 17 May 2011 at 02:04. Reason: now=r41, not r42 ^^
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Unread 17 May 2011, 01:46   #9
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Re: Bring back single targetting

how many etd (with a full emp co roiding fleet) were there in r39 top 100 tho?
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Unread 17 May 2011, 01:58   #10
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Re: Bring back single targetting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Influence View Post
how many etd (with a full emp co roiding fleet) were there in r39 top 100 tho?
That had nothing to do with the Dealer, right?
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Unread 17 May 2011, 02:32   #11
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Re: Bring back single targetting

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Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
That had nothing to do with the Dealer, right?
nah it had to do with the voyager and the vendor both being CO EMP ships.

on top of that they could even steal some other CO too with their dealer idd.
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Unread 17 May 2011, 09:33   #12
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Re: Bring back single targetting

Yes and no. It had to do with a good Co EMP fleet, sure, but mostly with there only being two races with good fi/co fleets while being (near) immune to these themselves. EMP should never be accompanied with free-firing ships like Dealer, let alone a steal ship.
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Unread 17 May 2011, 10:14   #13
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Re: Bring back single targetting

i disagree with cat co beeing overpowered here

tbh i think the stats look pretty good on first sight.

also i doubt we see a fi/co dominated round again, wish is a good think since i wub my sleep

not sure if xan is maybe a bit weak, they look a bit like that,
but i need to run some more calcs before

will do so when i get home
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Unread 17 May 2011, 10:36   #14
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Re: Bring back single targetting

can we have 5 races 3 pods per race 2 fi/co ships 3 fr/de ships 2 cr/bs ships and an off class sk ship to what ever pod is chosen. so we wont have such a big cluster of 1 race 1 class.
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Unread 18 May 2011, 11:15   #15
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Re: Bring back single targetting

Can I ask who is doing this stats for the next round and ask for their thinking behind each attacking fleet?
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Unread 18 May 2011, 21:00   #16
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Re: Bring back single targetting

i would assume from his responses that Patrikc is doing them


BUT....


As PA rules state - he must tinker and then Appocomaster will dip his hand in and ruin and then they will be FINALISED - AND CRAP!!!
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Unread 19 May 2011, 00:00   #17
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Re: Bring back single targetting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caj View Post
Why bring back single targetting?

Easier to play
Easier to land
Less reliance on teamups
As the fleet setup now need more attention ST in no way is easier to play then MT.
It's easier to land indeed. And it's also easier to land on YOU, which doesnt make the game easier for you.
ST rounds are always known to be teamup rounds. Stats for each race always have a hole in it which you need to compensate with a teamup. ST has always been like this.

[Edit] Sorry for gay colors.
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Unread 19 May 2011, 00:53   #18
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Re: Bring back single targetting

you're both wrong its more of a inbetween
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Unread 19 May 2011, 06:35   #19
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Re: Bring back single targetting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
i would assume from his responses that Patrikc is doing them.
I guess I await Pat's responce then.
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Unread 19 May 2011, 08:31   #20
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Re: Bring back single targetting

But it would still be nice to know if Patrikc is doing the stats or just making stats. Appoco?
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Unread 19 May 2011, 16:39   #21
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Re: Bring back single targetting

I'm making next round's stats, yes. I was hoping to get some more initial feedback on the ones in Beta before I commented on it, considering these are only around a week old.

Basically, I want every attackfleet to have at least one option to solo, preferably two, with the possibility of 0-loss defense against it, and a teamup fleet to cover against this 'hole'. At the same time, I don't want these two races to complement eachother fully. For example, Ter and Etd Bs are pretty awesome together, however they can't cover eachother against fi/co incs effectively.

It feels counterintuitive to me, because I tend to look for these 2-race combinations myself to determine the best strategy for alliance/galaxy, but this should never be allowed (see:current round Etd/Ter)
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Unread 19 May 2011, 17:39   #22
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Re: Bring back single targetting

just keep em like they are
all those last minute tweaks never helped anything really...

they may have flaws
some ships my be overpowered
so what!?

no set ever didnt
last minute changes are just a alibi anyhow, so someone can say in the end "we tried to balance it..."

and it would be nice for a change to have final stats early.

ofc if everyone would pick cathaar now, it could be a bit boring...but i dont see this happening
overall the best race will anyhow be decided, by the racial distribution in universe, in the top alliances and specially by the (top) alliances strategies.
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Unread 19 May 2011, 17:52   #23
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Re: Bring back single targetting

its a bad idea to assume that everyone can find the stats in beta

kinda helps if you let people know what the hell your talking about

or maybe its just me
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Unread 19 May 2011, 18:23   #24
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Re: Bring back single targetting

quick question: i assume the number of guns on the guardian is just a mistake?
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Unread 19 May 2011, 19:30   #25
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Re: Bring back single targetting

Quote:
Originally Posted by gzambo View Post
its a bad idea to assume that everyone can find the stats in beta
Like I said, I didn't feel I've had enough feedback to 'publish' them (also see:Guardian guns ). I'll make a thread on the Strategy forums with link and all.
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Unread 19 May 2011, 19:33   #26
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Re: Bring back single targetting

i agree with a lot of what has been said here.

cath co is a bit strong, changing 1 to norm should fix that.

xan is way too hitable.

ter is not hitable enough.

zik looks reasonable, always hard to play.

etd looks ok.

will go into more detail if people care.
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Unread 19 May 2011, 19:53   #27
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Re: Bring back single targetting

oh also, on guardian guns. shouldnt they have more than cat cr as its bs?
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Unread 19 May 2011, 20:57   #28
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Re: Bring back single targetting

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Originally Posted by Reincarnate View Post
oh also, on guardian guns. shouldnt they have more than cat cr as its bs?
They do. You must have refreshed in the 20 second window they went from 1 to 10 to 12. :/

Edit: made new thread on Strategy forums

Last edited by Patrikc; 19 May 2011 at 22:28.
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Unread 21 May 2011, 12:16   #29
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Re: Bring back single targetting

http://beta.planetarion.com/manual.p...n=211919514144

only suggestion I would make would is....

Phoenix Corvette Fr to Phoenix Corvette Fi
Pegasus Destroyer Fi to Pegasus Destroyer Fr

Spectre Cruiser Bs Cloak 5
to Spectre Cruiser Bs Cloak 8

As there is no Fi class anti de kinda makes the pegs a redundant attack ship. Also Means that ter now have ally eta anti fi being a down side if that is a concern then...

Phoenix Corvette Fr to Phoenix Frigate Fi
(tweak the cost/armour/damage and emp res accordingly)

to make xan fi more roidable on terrans (without having to do a fi/co combo and leaving the revs being open to harpy/cutlass def) and ter bs more roidable on xans (after early - mid round).
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Unread 23 May 2011, 14:53   #30
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Re: Bring back single targetting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
as been so overpowered these last few rounds.

Code:
caths @  top 100 
r41  -  15 (3 top 50)
r40  -  20
r39  -  2
r38  -  11
r37  -  14 (ST)
r35  -  11 (ST)
Ok, everyone is always throwing around stats to prove that races were overpowered in a certain round. However, i have never seen a table where ppl take into account how many planets of each race were present.

So, here is my (more realistic) view on how powerfull races were in the last few rounds

Code:
 
Percentage of planets of each race ENDING in the top 100
 
   R41   R40   R39   R38   R37   R36   R35   R34
Ter  16,3%  4,7%  7,6% 12,3% 24,6%  6,1%  7,4%  2,3%
Cat   5,0%  7,3%  0,4%  4,8%  4,3%  9,1%  3,4%  8,7%
Xan   0,7% 15,5%  5,4%  2,5%  7,5% 10,3%  4,3%  4,6%
Zik   2,8% 11,9% 13,8%  5,5%  5,6%  5,8% 21,5% 14,8%
Etd  11,1%  1,4% 13,9% 15,1%  9,2%  4,8%  4,9%  9,1%
So what does this mean?

Example:

Of all the cathaar that were present at the last tick of Round 41, 5,0% ended in top 100
Of all the eitraides that were present at the last tick of Round 41, 11,1% ended in top 100

Since (not presented in this post) 14 cathaar ended in top 100, and 15 eitraides, it would seem they were (almost) equally strong. However, relative to the amount of eitraides/cathaar in the entire universe, eitraides performed much better then cathaar (C=5%, E=11,1%), since there were many more cathaar planets, and 1 less of them ended in top 100 then eitraides planets.

Taking this a step further, we could make ratios; Define a ratio of 1.00 if a race has exactly the same % of planets in top 100 as it has % of planets in the entire universe. If the ratio is <1, the race underperformed, if the ratio >1, the race overperformed. This gives the following table

Code:
 
Performace ratio
 
     R41  R40  R39  R38  R37  R36  R35  R34  Average Average2*
Ter 1,80 0,50 0,88 1,44 2,90 0,80 0,93 0,29     1,19     1,06
Cat 0,55 0,77 0,05 0,56 0,50 1,18 0,43 1,14     0,65     0,77
Xan 0,08 1,63 0,63 0,29 0,88 1,34 0,54 0,60     0,75     0,82
Zik 0,30 1,26 1,61 0,64 0,65 0,75 2,69 1,93     1,23     1,14
Etd 1,23 0,15 1,62 1,77 1,08 0,62 0,61 1,19     1,03     1,06
 
*) Average leaving out worst and best performance
Conclusion:
- Etd overperforms most often with 4/8 rounds
- Zik is second best with overperformance of 3/8
- Then Ter, Xan and Cat with 2/8
- If you purely look at the average performance, cathaar score worst, and zikonian scores best
- Even if you leave out best and worst rounds for each race, cathaar remains the worst race
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Unread 23 May 2011, 18:23   #31
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Re: Bring back single targetting

But does that also take into account allaince based plans??

Im sure in this round Ter would have an even higher percentage if for example CT had decided to go BS based aswell.

For example an Apprime planet of any race should outperform most others of a powerful race just because of the allainces def culture. It doesnt mean that the race was brilliant it just means his/her allaince saved them alot.

The reason for saving Cat was op in rd 42 and were bored of it is simple... Beetles were OP against all fi/co , vipers hit almost 1/1 with all fr/de ships and Recluse had massive OP against Cr fleets and held up well with a kill buddy against Terr BS.

I know Cat cant kill anything and this is supposed to be teh arguement for overpowering it - but it just makes it damn hard to land on without large teamups.

If we want to pull PA away from the lolwave culture that is emerging and bring back the element of attacking with skill then Cath should be nerfed to an extent and used more as the 'support' planet its 'ability' denotes it to be.
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Unread 23 May 2011, 18:34   #32
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Re: Bring back single targetting

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But does that also take into account allaince based plans?
No but we could maybe use an instrumental variable for it. You know, we know alliance decisions affect race distributions, but it's a two-way causality, and ultimately race strengths define race success, so.

SERIOUSLY.
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Unread 23 May 2011, 21:42   #33
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Re: Bring back single targetting

I only built pegs/wyvern/dragon last round... 3 ships... and i was attacked maybe once and it was an epic fail. this kinda crap needs to stop. ST will fix that.... i think...
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Unread 24 May 2011, 09:53   #34
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Re: Bring back single targetting

Yes. Single targeting in general will force people to build more different ships. It's not exactly news that on more or less every multi-targetting round since round 1 or so it's been worth it to stack certain ships ad infinum.

This effect isn't least reduced by the fact that the stat makers constantly seem to allow people to get off with mostly their attack fleet on multi-target rounds.

I'd say if your attack fleets on a multi-target round would only target 2-3 types of ships each you might have something intresting going on.
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Unread 24 May 2011, 11:42   #35
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Re: Bring back single targetting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abort View Post
I only built pegs/wyvern/dragon last round... 3 ships... and i was attacked maybe once and it was an epic fail. this kinda crap needs to stop. ST will fix that.... i think...
Having no inc was probably more to do with you being in a dlr gal than just building 3 ships so the point is redundant
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Unread 25 May 2011, 04:35   #36
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Re: Bring back single targetting

Ter DE sucks tbh, biggest hole ive ever seen. Ter DE doesnt attk CO, and xan has Co anti DE thats. Ter DE couldnt even land a DE attk vs any xan or xan fake/real def.
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Unread 25 May 2011, 06:09   #37
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Re: Bring back single targetting

Thats why you need teamup partners. Zik DE has int 4 anti co kill ships so that negates the xan def.

The whole point of ST as i see it is you have stuff you cant hit and it about having friends to attack with and defend you that cover where you lack
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Unread 25 May 2011, 16:01   #38
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Re: Bring back single targetting

Doesnt that make it harder for newer people to play the game as they have no one to attk with.
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Unread 25 May 2011, 17:32   #39
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Re: Bring back single targetting

Regardless of what ppl want to say PA is a game that to play effectively you need to be in an alliance. Therefore there will be people to team up with.

If your new then join an alliance - simple
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Unread 25 May 2011, 18:07   #40
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Re: Bring back single targetting

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Regardless of what ppl want to say PA is a game that to play effectively you need to be in an alliance. Therefore there will be people to team up with.

If your new then join an alliance - simple
Precisely. And with alliances like Ngo around it's not like there's somewhere that wont accept newbies. They seem to be fairly open-armed.
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Unread 25 May 2011, 19:28   #41
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Re: Bring back single targetting

I have actually offered to help NGO a bit with there alliance. Write some nub guides and give basic tactics. Teamups on attacks is like top of the list of stuff you must do.
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Unread 25 May 2011, 19:46   #42
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Re: Bring back single targetting

kaiba, if you wanna write nub guides why not just put them here? if they are decent you can ask apocco to send a mail ingame to alert people at the start of the round...he might even do it!
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Unread 25 May 2011, 20:44   #43
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Re: Bring back single targetting

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kaiba, if you wanna write nub guides why not just put them here?
Fear of public disgrace through horribad guides?
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Unread 26 May 2011, 00:44   #44
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Re: Bring back single targetting

good idea rein


ill do it


No fear Tie = they were just for ngo - but they can be more broad if wanted
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Unread 26 May 2011, 04:35   #45
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Re: Bring back single targetting

"Tie" is a good abbreviation.
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Unread 26 May 2011, 08:28   #46
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Re: Bring back single targetting

French or Columbian?
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