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Unread 10 May 2010, 15:57   #1
Korsan
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Alternative approach on ship stats

Yeah right, I have too much time at the moment. so I thought about how PA could be made different and also more accessible for new players and give those long year players something different.
The idea is get rid of T1 T2 and T3 and set a base damage to every ship. Then add some bonus/malus against different types of ships, like Harpy gets 100% on base damage against FI class. Shipstats would look like this then:

Harpy - Base damage: 4

FI = +100% (=8)
CO = +50% (=6)

FR = +10%
DE = x (means base damage)

CR = -25%
BS = -50%

(Note this is only an example)

This basically is a free fire shipstats but ppl wouldn't build Harpy against BS class ships because of the low damage (-50% = 2 ).
You'd have no ships not firing but you'd still have ships specialized to take out certain classes. Adding special bonus against a certain shiptype would also be plausible like XAN Peacekeeper (BS Class) gets an additional bonus against XAN CR because the unit description says this ship is used to fight mainly other XAN CRs.

I think this way the game would become much more interesting. Of course this whole thing needs more than just a little brainstorming like i did now but I'm sure those stats experts - once they like this idea - could make a really nice stats setup.

Please discuss here and tell me if you like it.
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Unread 10 May 2010, 16:11   #2
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Re: Alternative approach on ship stats

I like it, though I'd probably go for a different implementation.
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Unread 10 May 2010, 16:44   #3
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Re: Alternative approach on ship stats

I also like it. Could be a pretty interesting path to follow in the future and at worst it would be a round of something different, which isn't bad at all at this point.
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Unread 10 May 2010, 17:20   #4
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Re: Alternative approach on ship stats

Well, this isn't the first time this has been discussed, I even worked on an implementation of it for Kombat for a while, although with a bit more "logical" scaling system.

At the end of the day, while I'd probably enjoy the beauty of such a system and how it's logical and realistic, it would change the nature of the game in a direction which I'm not sure most people would enjoy. I'm not saying it would be bad, but it's going further towards simplifying choices and emphasizing defensive play.

Personally I'm a big fan of a balance between defense and offense, and to that effect I believe a well balanced multitargeting set without the use of T3 = * is the best choice.
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Unread 10 May 2010, 17:28   #5
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Re: Alternative approach on ship stats

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Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu View Post
Well, this isn't the first time this has been discussed, I even worked on an implementation of it for Kombat for a while, although with a bit more "logical" scaling system.

At the end of the day, while I'd probably enjoy the beauty of such a system and how it's logical and realistic, it would change the nature of the game in a direction which I'm not sure most people would enjoy. I'm not saying it would be bad, but it's going further towards simplifying choices and emphasizing defensive play.

Personally I'm a big fan of a balance between defense and offense, and to that effect I believe a well balanced multitargeting set without the use of T3 = * is the best choice.
hmm.. Changing defense/offense values by a multiplier would also be an option to encourage offensive play.

For example harpy could get an additional +10% on offense or something like that. I think multipliers are much more versatile than fix values. Modifying them for different situations would be possible.
Also this change doesnt have to be final. Like now every round system changes from MT to ST PA could change from fix shipstats to multiplier shipstats
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Unread 10 May 2010, 18:31   #6
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Re: Alternative approach on ship stats

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Originally Posted by Korsan View Post
hmm.. Changing defense/offense values by a multiplier would also be an option to encourage offensive play.

For example harpy could get an additional +10% on offense or something like that. I think multipliers are much more versatile than fix values. Modifying them for different situations would be possible.
Also this change doesnt have to be final. Like now every round system changes from MT to ST PA could change from fix shipstats to multiplier shipstats
The key difference is that this system requires a re-write of the battlecode, and while you could have a single system that allowed for turning this feature on or off, it's still a rather huge commitment to undertake if indeed it weren't permanent.

As for multipliers, or indeed sliding scales as is the next logical progression (calculating additional stopping power and "overkill" based on armour-value relations), while it does allow for greater fine-tuning it does detract from the acsessability of the stats. This is a bad thing because then the morons that make up 99% of the playerbase would be further disadvantaged as their tiny brains wouldn't be capable of making a judgement about targets as quickly as those of us who do not suffer from fetal alcohol syndrome.

/Bitter tirade.
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Unread 10 May 2010, 19:02   #7
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Re: Alternative approach on ship stats

I still like the system mosc once proposed over on the PIA forums, in which two properties get added to ships: the good old weapon speed and agility, while targetting is removed completely. Ships with high WpSp are good against ships with high Agil, but bad against ships with low Agil. Ships with low WpSp are good against ships with low Agil, but bad against ships with high Agil. Note that size doesn't come into this, in theory you could have a highly agile battleship, as well as a slug-like fighter.

While getting a complete understanding of the stats would indeed, as Tzu said, be harder, it would be easier to get a rudimentary understanding, because mistakes aren't punished as harshly as they are now.
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Unread 10 May 2010, 19:28   #8
Sun_Tzu
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Re: Alternative approach on ship stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
I still like the system mosc once proposed over on the PIA forums, in which two properties get added to ships: the good old weapon speed and agility, while targetting is removed completely. Ships with high WpSp are good against ships with high Agil, but bad against ships with low Agil. Ships with low WpSp are good against ships with low Agil, but bad against ships with high Agil. Note that size doesn't come into this, in theory you could have a highly agile battleship, as well as a slug-like fighter.

While getting a complete understanding of the stats would indeed, as Tzu said, be harder, it would be easier to get a rudimentary understanding, because mistakes aren't punished as harshly as they are now.
There have been a number of suggested implementations for this, but I fear the time for this idea may have passed. At the very least, I cba to get people up to speed in order to allow the conversation to properly continue on the level that it did back in those days.

Thanks for prompting a nostalgia-trip though, went back to PIA forums and bumped into this golden nugget:

Quote:
Originally Posted by mosc
Sun_Tzu, you may be smarter than me, a better player than me, and more experienced than me, but ur still an ass.
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Unread 10 May 2010, 21:32   #9
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Re: Alternative approach on ship stats

He's right, you are an ass.

He still had a couple of golden nuggets when it came to ideas, despite having to dig through a mountain of mud to find them <3
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Unread 10 May 2010, 21:53   #10
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Re: Alternative approach on ship stats

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Originally Posted by Kenny View Post
He's right, you are an ass.

He still had a couple of golden nuggets when it came to ideas, despite having to dig through a mountain of mud to find them <3
I've never claimed to be anything but! And those who endured enough abuse and tried to slug it out and actually learn usually did, over time, improve and become better. Ah fs, now I'm starting to miss Mammoth
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Unread 10 May 2010, 22:08   #11
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Re: Alternative approach on ship stats

I made his forum sig!
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Unread 10 May 2010, 22:58   #12
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Re: Alternative approach on ship stats

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Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu View Post
Thanks for prompting a nostalgia-trip though
I was tempted to go there myself but then I didn't.
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Unread 14 May 2010, 00:00   #13
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Re: Alternative approach on ship stats

wow this thread got off topic really quick :O
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Unread 14 May 2010, 19:31   #14
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Re: Alternative approach on ship stats

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wow this thread got off topic really quick :O
No worries, I already declared the actual topic dealt with, so there wasn't anything to discuss any longer.
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Unread 7 Aug 2010, 16:59   #15
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Re: Alternative approach on ship stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Korsan View Post
Yeah right, I have too much time at the moment. so I thought about how PA could be made different and also more accessible for new players and give those long year players something different.
The idea is get rid of T1 T2 and T3 and set a base damage to every ship. Then add some bonus/malus against different types of ships, like Harpy gets 100% on base damage against FI class. Shipstats would look like this then:

Harpy - Base damage: 4

FI = +100% (=8)
CO = +50% (=6)

FR = +10%
DE = x (means base damage)

CR = -25%
BS = -50%

(Note this is only an example)

This basically is a free fire shipstats but ppl wouldn't build Harpy against BS class ships because of the low damage (-50% = 2 ).
You'd have no ships not firing but you'd still have ships specialized to take out certain classes. Adding special bonus against a certain shiptype would also be plausible like XAN Peacekeeper (BS Class) gets an additional bonus against XAN CR because the unit description says this ship is used to fight mainly other XAN CRs.

I think this way the game would become much more interesting. Of course this whole thing needs more than just a little brainstorming like i did now but I'm sure those stats experts - once they like this idea - could make a really nice stats setup.

Please discuss here and tell me if you like it.
Yes Necro!

hmmm I'm against this because the best ships to use would be FR/DE.

FI = -25%
CO = -10%

FR = 0
DE = 0

CR = -10%
BS = -25%

This is the current problem that I see we have with PA...

Meta 1 (FI/CO) - Targets FI/CO/FR/DE
Meta 2 (FR/DE) - Targets FI/CO/FR/DE/CR/BS
Meta 3 (CR/BS) - Targets FR/DE/CR/BS

Meta 2 gets all the glory, and as such are the most built "defence" ships.
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Unread 7 Aug 2010, 17:29   #16
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Re: Alternative approach on ship stats

I would go for a master of orion type of an implementation where everyone designs their own ships according to their base hulls. For certain races, certain attributes are cheaper. All attributes are however calculated by a dimunishing returns to price.

So a terran would get cheaper armor on their ships. This would mean that for the same marginal increase in price they would get the same marginal increase in armor on higher level (say, 10 cost, 10=> 11 armor, against xandathrii's 15 cost for 10=>11 armor or 10 cost for 6-7 armor). You'd have a certain amount of allocated budget per hull type (much like world of thatcraft functions with gear's item budgets; an item level, here, hull size, limits the amount of total budget a gear piece can have, and all stats that can be allocated in a gear are subject to dimunishing returns et cetera, however here with the race twist).

Boom boom boom boom.
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Unread 9 Aug 2010, 08:57   #17
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Re: Alternative approach on ship stats

Do not forget about targeting priority
and init.
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