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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 13:35   #501
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjeldoran
On a sidenote, Cruijff just said in the Spanish paper (El Periodico) that he believes Spain to be the favourite for this final because they've been the best team this WC with the most appealing style.

So aside from myself, there is atleast 1 other person who likes their style.
Johan Cruijff's opinion is not relevant. He is not posting on this thread. Why do you insist on bringing such irrelevant opinions on the thread. Based on my professional experience as a SAP consultant, I have to listen to people's opinions a lot, so I know whose opinions are relevant. In this case, Cruijff will post on this thread himself which is when his opinion becomes relevant.
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 13:37   #502
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Originally Posted by Kjeldoran View Post
No, your assumption about you thinking I feel better then others. You said that's what you assumed. So yeah, you did assume and admitted that (by typing it) and I tell you it's wrong. Hence establishing that you are incorrect.

End of discussion really.
Strawman argument.

You're still to actually address in a coherent manner why Johan Cruijff's opinion is relevant on this thread but Zidenine Zidane's isn't. And I suspect, since this is the whole foundation of your current establishemt, that you won't even comment on it - hence the end of discussion really.

To further emphasize on your cherry picking of those opinions to be relevant that support your argument and neglecting of the others that don't. See Cruijff above and below:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjeldoran
I'm not Zidane, I don't care what his opinion on this is.

Zidane is not part of this discussion, nor did he express his opinion on this matter here. Hence I don't care about some imaginary opinion which doesn't even exist as he didn't participate here.
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 13:40   #503
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
Then, again, the relevancy of SAP consultancy or your personal life contributes very little to the discussion "football", and to be fair, there's little gains in claiming that "on your consultant's expertise this and that person's opinion aren't valid", because it doesn't actually revoke the argument that Zidane's opinion would be valid. You could revoke the argument by stating "Zidane doesn't even know what a football is, since he's a 3-year-old Kongolese child, how on earth could his opinion on football rules be relevant".
It is not relevant, I used it as an example, nothing more. It's you who started to look for things I didn't say or claim. Does my job revoke the arguement that Zindane's opinion is irelevant? Nope.

What it does show is that I do care about other pple's opinion, something I stated and something you claimed I don't. For that and only that was the example used, nothing else.
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 13:41   #504
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Originally Posted by Kjeldoran View Post
Look, if you want to discuss or argue with me, then don't pretend you know what I'd answer. By doing so, you immediatly make whatever I want to reply as pointless. And why expect a reply is your questions are rethorical?

What is relevant to the subject is something everyone decides for themselves. Perhaps the opinion of Zidane is relevant in this conversation to you. For others it might not. I'm also not enforcing you classify it as irrlevant.

I'm not fighting any battles, I'm merely defending myself from the constant personal "attacks", something really relevant in a discussion so it appears.
I answered the (rhetorical for me!) questions because you did not grasp anything of what I posted. Therefore I felt the need to clarify it for you. So you could reread and maybe understand better what I wrote. But you felt attacked and started to smash around accordingly. Just what I expected.

What is relevant to a discussion is decided by all participants. If you have good arguments for rejecting a point then this point will be accepted by all participants. Yet so far all your arguments have been ad hominem (as pointed out by Tietaja).

The problem is you cannot seem to take a more holistic view, nor are you able to discuss in a decent manner. The fact that people take an interest in showing you just that (in order to make you a better participant in discussions) should actually be appreciated by you. But you continue to not grasp the guidelines offered to you.

The fact that you feel that you have to defend yourself illustrates this. It shows that you don't see the point people are trying to make here. And it also makes it a bad vantage point for any further discussion.
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 13:41   #505
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjeldoran View Post
It is not relevant, I used it as an example, nothing more. It's you who started to look for things I didn't say or claim. Does my job revoke the arguement that Zindane's opinion is irelevant? Nope.

What it does show is that I do care about other pple's opinion, something I stated and something you claimed I don't. For that and only that was the example used, nothing else.

You have, however, claimed that Zidane's opinion is not relevant first because you are not Zidane, and later you specified further and added that it's because he's not posting here. Yet, you've earlier come to the conclusion that Cruijff's opinion is relevant, even though he's not posting on this thread (as far as I know). There is a conflict here.
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 13:42   #506
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
Strawman argument.

You're still to actually address in a coherent manner why Johan Cruijff's opinion is relevant on this thread but Zidenine Zidane's isn't. And I suspect, since this is the whole foundation of your current establishemt, that you won't even comment on it - hence the end of discussion really.

To further emphasize on your cherry picking of those opinions to be relevant that support your argument and neglecting of the others that don't. See Cruijff above and below:
Lol, so you want me to respond or comment on something but all you reply is "strawman argument" on something you're clearly wrong.

Nway, it seems you don't expect nor want an explanation from me. So who am I to change that?
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 13:45   #507
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Originally Posted by Membrivio View Post
The fact that people take an interest in showing you just that (in order to make you a better participant in discussions) should actually be appreciated by you. But you continue to not grasp the guidelines offered to you.
So I should now appreciate the manner in which Tietäjä constantly belittles, provokes, mocks and insults me? Yeah, he's showing a great deal of interest in making me a better participant in discussions ...
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 13:48   #508
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Originally Posted by Kjeldoran View Post
Nway, it seems you don't expect nor want an explanation from me. So who am I to change that?

Dude I have asked for an explanation multiple times, I can't repeat myself to infinity. My argument still is that Zidane's opinion is valuable in the case of discussing footballing rules because he's a former well appreciated professional footballer - especially in that sense that, given his cultural background, certain unsporting behaviour that does not necessarily cause him physical damage might bring him more grief than a headbutt in the chest would. I've been making this point simply to elaborate that arguing that Spain's breaking of the rules is less bad than the Dutch breaking the rules is an empty argument because the bottom line is that they're both equally breaking the rules: in the case of the finale, say Iniesta got off with play acting fairly easily (resulting in a yellow card for Van der Wiedl), while De Jong was punished for his kick (although arguably the punishment may not have been sufficient).

Your reaction was that Zidane's opinion is not relevant because a) you, "Kjeldoran", are not Zidane, or b) Zidane is not posting on this thread. I've been trying to elaborate why I think none of these two claims are really valid in argumentative terms, because one could say Zidane carries a certain expertise in the subject football, which does make a way to validating his opinion in the subject. Even you've implied earlier on this thread that former footballer's opinions carry weight by taking Johan Cruijff's opinion aboard. Hence I've been trying to ask why Zidane's opinion now suddenly isn't relevant, but so far you've refused to come up with any explanation on this (apart from sidetracking into strawmen).
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 13:49   #509
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Originally Posted by Membrivio View Post
I answered the (rhetorical for me!) questions because you did not grasp anything of what I posted. Therefore I felt the need to clarify it for you. So you could reread and maybe understand better what I wrote. But you felt attacked and started to smash around accordingly. Just what I expected.
If that's what you expected, then why post it in such fashion? If I'd expect you to insult me if I say this or that, and if I don't want to get insulted ... doesn't it make sence to approach "me" differently to prevent a certain behavior?

I didn't feel attacked by you. You're not the one constantly belittling, provoking mocking or insulting me. That was aimed towards Tietäjä, not you.

You made a reply in a fashion that deemed it pointless for me to reply on, that's all. If that wasn't your intention, so be it.
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 13:52   #510
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Originally Posted by Kjeldoran View Post
So I should now appreciate the manner in which Tietäjä constantly belittles, provokes, mocks and insults me? Yeah, he's showing a great deal of interest in making me a better participant in discussions ...
You are in a discussion with Tietaja (and Kila) since page 3. Reread your replies and it will show you are directly in defencemode when people point you at things.

Tietaja is trying to show you something since page 3. I call that persistence at the least! No shit, who would not be frustrated! Hah!
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 13:55   #511
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Originally Posted by Kjeldoran View Post
If that's what you expected, then why post it in such fashion? If I'd expect you to insult me if I say this or that, and if I don't want to get insulted ... doesn't it make sence to approach "me" differently to prevent a certain behavior?

I didn't feel attacked by you. You're not the one constantly belittling, provoking mocking or insulting me. That was aimed towards Tietäjä, not you.

You made a reply in a fashion that deemed it pointless for me to reply on, that's all. If that wasn't your intention, so be it.
I posted, because I am a very optimistic person and I hoped for a reply in this fashion:

'Membrivio: you are correct, I did not read your post carefully enough. I was blinded by my own beliefs. Although I differ in opinion with you about X or Y I agree with you on points A and B'

Would that not have been awesome?
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 13:58   #512
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Originally Posted by Membrivio View Post
You are in a discussion with Tietaja (and Kila) since page 3. Reread your replies and it will show you are directly in defencemode when people point you at things.

Tietaja is trying to show you something since page 3. I call that persistence at the least! No shit, who would not be frustrated! Hah!
Kila merely insulted me, nothing more. I don't think I'll ever care much about his input, as I know the purpose of it, regardless what the subject is.

Tietäjä is perhaps trying to show me something, but if that's his true intention then boy should he learn certain things. That belittling, insulting, mocking and provoking are probably the worst possible ways to try and persuade or convince someone.

Nway, none of that is related to the convo we had and the manner of "retorical" reply your post was written in.
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 14:03   #513
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Originally Posted by Membrivio View Post
I posted, because I am a very optimistic person and I hoped for a reply in this fashion:

'Membrivio: you are correct, I did not read your post carefully enough. I was blinded by my own beliefs. Although I differ in opinion with you about X or Y I agree with you on points A and B'

Would that not have been awesome?
This what you initially posted:

Kjeldoran: stop trying to annoy Dutch people. And you are biased as hell. Stop insulting Dutch people. And stop brabbling in a poor attempt to start a discussion.

So how am I insulting or annoying Dutch people? Sure I'm biassed as hell, hence why I do think Spain deserved the victory. Just because you, a Dutch person, completely disagree with my opinion, doesn't mean I'm insulting you mmm?

I mean, I merely commented on the behavior of several Dutch players and other the fact that I think Spain deserved it. And we both agreed the ref was horrible. I did at no point insult the Dutch population. Hell, I even told you you should be proud to be the 2nd best country in the world which it comes to football ...
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 14:03   #514
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Originally Posted by Kjeldoran View Post
Tietäjä is perhaps trying to show me something, but if that's his true intention then boy should he learn certain things. That belittling, insulting, mocking and provoking are probably the worst possible ways to try and persuade or convince someone.

You're still focused on ad hominem and strawmen instead of actually addressing the question I've asked you a multiple times over and over again. I'm eagerly waiting to hear an answer.
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 14:05   #515
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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You're still focused on ad hominem and strawmen instead of actually addressing the question I've asked you a multiple times over and over again. I'm eagerly waiting to hear an answer.
Lol, so the behavior of you towards me is irrelevant and only the topic is? Is that the discussion style you wish to apply?

You're not eagerly waiting to hear an answer. You're eagerly waiting for an opportunity to continue what you were doing, regardless of what my answer would be.
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 14:07   #516
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Originally Posted by Kjeldoran View Post
Btw, is it me or does entire Holland still blame the referee?

I mean, I understand the initial reaction (of frustration and dissapointment over losing the final).

But 2 days later and they still believe Webb ruined the game for them because of:

- Goal was scored after a corner was not awarded to Holland --> Correct
- Iniesta scored while he should have received red for pushing Van Bommel --> Correct

Now, I don't know if they invented television in The Netherlands yet, but anyone with eyes and a television would have seen the karate kick from De Jong, the disgusting tackles and kicks from Van Bommel and the 2nd yellow card for Robben which wasn't awarded (while Xavi received a yellow card for the same action).

Now, everyone agrees that the referee made alot of bad calls, but to STILL blame the referee for losing a final ...
Not insulting to the Dutch? Give me a break.
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 14:09   #517
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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You're not eagerly waiting to hear an answer. You're eagerly waiting for an opportunity to continue what you were doing, regardless of what my answer would be.
I can't understand why you're so heavily refusing to answer the question, really. I've seriously been waiting for a logic behind the mentioned case for a good page now. It's not that difficult a question. Obviously, if your answer is going to be on the lines of "Because I think, based on my personal experience, that Cruijff's opinion is relevant and valuable in football, but Zidane's isn't", then well.
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 14:27   #518
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Not insulting to the Dutch? Give me a break.
No it's not insulting.

Didn't Sneijder blame the ref and only the ref for their defeat? Even a day after the match, when things cooled down, he still claimed this.

On our news, they interviewed alot of Dutch citizens, most if not all of them did blame the ref for their defeat.

Those are the things I base myself on. If that's incorrect, then that's not my fault.
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 14:35   #519
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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I can't understand why you're so heavily refusing to answer the question, really. I've seriously been waiting for a logic behind the mentioned case for a good page now. It's not that difficult a question. Obviously, if your answer is going to be on the lines of "Because I think, based on my personal experience, that Cruijff's opinion is relevant and valuable in football, but Zidane's isn't", then well.
Both Cruijff and Zidane's opinion when it comes to footbal all relevant as I have heaps of respect for both ex-players.

I however don't see what Zidane's opinion regarding the fact that I rather be insulted then kicked in the stomach is anywhere relevant. I'm sure he thinks differently, I'm sure you think differently.

Because that's when you brought up the Zidane example, because I stated I feel verbal aggression is less "damaging" to me PERSONALLY then physical aggression.

That doesn't mean I don't think Zidane has a worthless opinion. You said "Zidane feels differently". Fair enough, that's his right. But I was talking about what I FEEL, not about what Zidane feels.

The Cruijff example is different, it's not even in the same context. I used Cruijff as an example to show that more pple do think Spain to be the favourite. So yes, ofcourse his opinion is relevant as I used that as an arguement. Because that was the context. I didn't use that to counter someone else's arguement. The "on a sidenote" should indicate that. Consider it "extra information".
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 14:41   #520
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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No it's not insulting.

Didn't Sneijder blame the ref and only the ref for their defeat? Even a day after the match, when things cooled down, he still claimed this.

On our news, they interviewed alot of Dutch citizens, most if not all of them did blame the ref for their defeat.

Those are the things I base myself on. If that's incorrect, then that's not my fault.
Oh wait. Now you decide what is insulting for an inhabitant of The Netherlands? Seriously?

And if you are not correct, then it is not your fault. Seriously?

Final post. My final verdict: you cannot be saved. Good luck in life.
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 14:46   #521
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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I however don't see what Zidane's opinion regarding the fact that I rather be insulted then kicked in the stomach is anywhere relevant. I'm sure he thinks differently, I'm sure you think differently.

Because that's when you brought up the Zidane example, because I stated I feel verbal aggression is less "damaging" to me PERSONALLY then physical aggression.
Simply to make a point that some people will feel different and thus making statements that this and that foul is worse than the other when they're both in the same category in the rulebook is quite silly. It is relevant, in terms of the discussion of "Spain's unsporting play being less bad than that of the Dutch", when they're both essentially just the same - intentional breaking of the rules. The obvious other side of the coin would be a person like Zidane saying he'd rather take a fist in his face than have someone insult his mother to him (if you know any moroccan-algerian type people fron Netherlands or France say, you'd probably know this. i've been involved with a few, and it's such a different culture by this, especially the mother subject).

This is why Zidane did what he did, and was punished for it - whatever Materazzi did should probably have been punished for too, since there's little doubt that it wasn't a very personal insult. The line of thought is, that, while physical violent conduct is very visible a way of breaking the rules, in that it's pretty hard for a ref not to spot a De Jong kick, the kind of intentional cheating players like Iniesta constantly do is really shitting on the game too.

Quote:
That doesn't mean I don't think Zidane has a worthless opinion. You said "Zidane feels differently". Fair enough, that's his right. But I was talking about what I FEEL, not about what Zidane feels.
However, it's not a discussion of what you feel, as in, a discussion where what you feel (eg. what you feel insults the Dutch or whatnot) is the ultimate premise or truth. This is why it's important for the sake of a discussion or argument to bring more than just the subjective views of the debate on to the table. Otherwise it would hardly be a discussion in the first place since. If you simply want to let the world know how you feel, you're probably better off writing a blog and closing down the comments. Then people can read how you feel. However, forums, by nature, are a medium of discussion, and while you can "exchange thoughts about the weather" for a limited amount of time, it's never going to be very carrying on the long run.


It's far more intelligent to try reasonably argue the case from multiple perspectives rather than just the subjective one. When discussing the case refereeing in terms of "who should have and what", it's pretty easy to say that say Iniesta should've received at least one yellow card for obvious play acting, but none of this is mentioned because it's "okay to cheat the rules by play acting or unsporting conduct that doesn't result in direct physical injury", because "certain people feel so"; while they're both rules infrigiments and there are people for whom, truly, words can be more damaging than a kick.

I pretty much agree with Membri here.

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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 14:49   #522
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Originally Posted by Membrivio View Post
Oh wait. Now you decide what is insulting for an inhabitant of The Netherlands? Seriously?

And if you are not correct, then it is not your fault. Seriously?

Final post. My final verdict: you cannot be saved. Good luck in life.
Lol, I'll have sleepless nights because of this, honnestly ...

Yes, I decide if what I meant is insulting to an inhabitant of The Netherlands. I base myself on what I've seen on our news and on what players such as Sneijder stated. Was I wrong in doing so? Should I ignore this information then?

Or is Sneijder not a "real" citizen of The Netherlands? Or only when it suits you? Are all the random supporters they interviewed Fake Dutchmen, pretending to be real ones to try and send a false image into the world?

Your own (ex?)coach stated that the ref changed the outcome of the game. During the press conference after the game, international media asked him why he thought the ref was "against" his team while he was infact rather mild in some situations.

I'm not making this up you know. Perhaps most think differently now, but when I made that post, most citizens of The Netherlands DID blame the ref for their defeat. Be it that they meant it or if it was the frustration talking, we'll never know.
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 14:53   #523
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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I pretty much agree with Membri here.
So I explained my reasoning, and this is your final reply. So why on earth would you bother asking for a reaction? You've made up your mind ages ago, the only reason you keep posting is for obvious before mentioned reasons.

Maybe your arguements are valid, maybe they aren't. But hey, guess I can't be saved since I don't see things the same way as you do (aka: the only correct way so it seems).
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 15:18   #524
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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So I explained my reasoning, and this is your final reply. So why on earth would you bother asking for a reaction? You've made up your mind ages ago, the only reason you keep posting is for obvious before mentioned reasons.

Because if it, every time, takes 10 posts to get a reasonable argument over shit like "I am not Zidane" or "Zidane is not posting on this thread" (which you can probably agree with me are complete garbage carrying little if any weight except for ridiculing their writer and have little to do with the "actual" logic behind your thoughts you just wrote down), it's just very tedious.
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 15:53   #525
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

This page is pretty epic.

edit: it is basically every single one of the last 10 pages being rewritten
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 17:32   #526
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

I'm sure we'll come up with more revisions.
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Unread 28 Jul 2010, 09:36   #527
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Because if it, every time, takes 10 posts to get a reasonable argument over shit like "I am not Zidane" or "Zidane is not posting on this thread" (which you can probably agree with me are complete garbage carrying little if any weight except for ridiculing their writer and have little to do with the "actual" logic behind your thoughts you just wrote down), it's just very tedious.
Lol, so now you assume we can both agree that my reasoning is garbage? What I wrote down is the actual logic behing my thoughts. If you disagree with it, no problem.

If that's not what you meant (mind you my English is not my mother tongue and I sometimes fail to see the subtle meaning) then ignore this.
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Unread 28 Jul 2010, 09:37   #528
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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This page is pretty epic.

edit: it is basically every single one of the last 10 pages being rewritten
Yes, though I do not dare taking credits for that alone :-)
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Unread 28 Jul 2010, 10:35   #529
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Lol, so now you assume we can both agree that my reasoning is garbage? What I wrote down is the actual logic behing my thoughts. If you disagree with it, no problem.
Jesus. English isn't my native either, in fact, it's my third or fourth language depending on your point of view (perhaps Swedish is my second, and German third). But it all really boils down to basic reading comperhension, instead of skimming comperhension, latter usually resulting in garbage. I think a part of it is played by the simple mental block refusing to actually read the words written and instead reading things you want to see written, as again here.

If you're claiming that the argument that someone's opinion is not relevant to a discussion because you are not that person is not complete garbage then what can I say, except that it's pointless to discuss anything with a person whose argumentative reasoning is on the level of a six year old.
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Unread 28 Jul 2010, 10:55   #530
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Jesus. English isn't my native either, in fact, it's my third or fourth language depending on your point of view (perhaps Swedish is my second, and German third). But it all really boils down to basic reading comperhension, instead of skimming comperhension, latter usually resulting in garbage. I think a part of it is played by the simple mental block refusing to actually read the words written and instead reading things you want to see written, as again here.

If you're claiming that the argument that someone's opinion is not relevant to a discussion because you are not that person is not complete garbage then what can I say, except that it's pointless to discuss anything with a person whose argumentative reasoning is on the level of a six year old.
Ahh, didn't take you long to resort to insults again. Seems it's a fitting style you apply.

There is nothing wrong with my reading comperhension, nor does my mind refuse to read the words written. If that was actually the case, I wouldn't be able to perform a job as that's kinda crucial in alot of jobs.

I don't claim that someone's opinion is not relevant to a discussion because you are not that person. I just said I'm not Zidane. What I do claim is that in a discussion about MY FEELING regarding verbal vs physical aggression, the opinion of Zidane is not relevant. Would I want to discuss the overal view on verbal vs physical aggression, then ofcourse his and your opinion is relevant.

Perhaps another example: If I want to paint a wall in my house, the opinion of others whether it's a nice color or not is not relevant. If I however wish to paint a wall at my office, then the opinion of others IS relevant. I know, a simplistic example.

Nway, I don't want to start this arguement again. This is what I'm trying to explain, nothing (read: NOTHING) else.
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Unread 28 Jul 2010, 13:00   #531
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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I just said I'm not Zidane. What I do claim is that in a discussion about MY FEELING regarding verbal vs physical aggression, the opinion of Zidane is not relevant. Would I want to discuss the overal view on verbal vs physical aggression, then ofcourse his and your opinion is relevant.
See this is where me and Membrivio take different paths with you (and thus conclude that you're a lost cause). Myself and Membrivio seem intrested in discussing things - taking different perspectives into account, and trying to find something new in it. You, on the other hande, simply seem to be intrested in bringing out your personal view on things, ie. "how can this insult a Dutch person", or "your and his opinion are not relevant". Which further establishes the point of it being completely useless to discuss with you, since there's nothing to discuss: because you're not intrested in discussing overall views on subjects, you're simply intrested in expressing your opinion. It'd be a really, really poor medium of discussion if all threads were simply lists of people expressing their own opinions without any effort in contributing to discussing them beyond that.

Let me make an example. Around here, consultants aren't around to simply express their own opinions to their clients. They cooperate, they discuss, they're intrested in different views on different subjects, and they're very rarely not intrested in hearing your view on things just because they don't find it relevant. It could be that consulting culture is very different in where you come from.

Again, I don't care how brilliant a consultant you are. It simply doesn't show on your reading comperhension here, and yet, I'm not the only person to feel this way.

The general academic culture is very similar: opinions are encouraged, and opinions are discussed (this also seems to be the agenda outside my country: say Project Syndicate is a good example of ideas, and on the earlier example you could consider Greg Mankiw and Gene Grossman discussing what is vastly opinions; while taking into account other experts' opinions too on the offshoring subject).

This is why it's intresting to discuss with people who are open to discussion. People like you, however, are dead end, since you'll simply slam out any attempts to make perspective to discussions with statements on the level of "I'm not him, so his opinion is not relevant", or "He's not posting on this thread, so his opinion is not relevant" (neither of which were your ultimate reasons for it, even though you initially posted so, which puzzles me to no end!), or the bit Membrivio called it out on. It becomes too much of an effort to get any reasonable discussion going on.

To add to that, you genuinely seem to only read half the texts posted to you. Or at best skim through them. If you think "I'm not him, so his opinion is not relevant" or "He's not posting on this thread, so his opinion is not relevant" are good arguments then it's not pretty hard to call your argumentation that of a six year old. Of course, in question of whose football is more enjoyable to watch, Cruijff's opinion is valuable (because it "supports" your opinion), but in question of what kind of fouls are worse and what not, Zidane's isn't (because it doesn't "support" your opinion); while both of these discussions are by heart discussions of preference (and since reasonably well behaving preferences aren't much to argue about themselves, they can bring intresting insight to discussions).

If none of this actually goes through, and you resort to your petty skimming of a post and replying about only being here to state your personal feelings instead of having an intrest in discussing subjects further I'll just laugh a little.
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Unread 28 Jul 2010, 13:08   #532
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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See this is where me and Membrivio take different paths with you (and thus conclude that you're a lost cause). Myself and Membrivio seem intrested in discussing things - taking different perspectives into account, and trying to find something new in it. You, on the other hande, simply seem to be intrested in bringing out your personal view on things, ie. "how can this insult a Dutch person", or "your and his opinion are not relevant". Which further establishes the point of it being completely useless to discuss with you, since there's nothing to discuss: because you're not intrested in discussing overall views on subjects, you're simply intrested in expressing your opinion. It'd be a really, really poor medium of discussion if all threads were simply lists of people expressing their own opinions without any effort in contributing to discussing them beyond that.
Correct. In this particular case, I just wrote down my opinion. I did not initiate a discussion nor was it a desire of me. I'm not the one who started arguing about the things I said.

You call me a lost cause because you, only now, understand the motivation of my post ... ok :-)

I know how to discuss or argue. Just because I don't apply it in this thread (deliberatly, as I just stated MY feelings about something, regardless if you find that interesting or not), doesn't mean I got no clue how to do it.

Everything you said here is correct. I didn't want to discuss it, I selfishly only posted my view on things. Sure, that's a poor way of discussing if that was infact my intention ... to start a discussion.

It took you alot of insults, belittling, provoking and assumptions to establish this.
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Unread 28 Jul 2010, 13:15   #533
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Let me make an example. Around here, consultants aren't around to simply express their own opinions to their clients. They cooperate, they discuss, they're intrested in different views on different subjects, and they're very rarely not intrested in hearing your view on things just because they don't find it relevant. It could be that consulting culture is very different in where you come from.

Again, I don't care how brilliant a consultant you are. It simply doesn't show on your reading comperhension here, and yet, I'm not the only person to feel this way.
Nope, we apply exactly the same culture here. You don't need to tell me how a consultant should work. I've been a consultant for nearly 6 years and I'm extremely good in my particular field of work (not my words, though I do agree).

Perception is everything when you're a consultant. It doesn't matter what you deliver. If the customer is satisfied with what you deliver, then you've done a good job. Regardless if the solution is the best available one.

Eventually, it's their decision and their solution. I just guide them, implement it and give my expertise on things to come to a solution, taking into account tons of factors. But I don't make "decisions" unless they give me carte blanche.

This is a forum. a Gaming forum to be exact. You can't compare this with real life. I mean, on a forum everyone lowers him/herself to an insult every now and then. If I'd insult my customer even once, I'd be fired and my reputation (perception is everything) would be ruined.
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Unread 28 Jul 2010, 13:20   #534
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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If none of this actually goes through, and you resort to your petty skimming of a post and replying about only being here to state your personal feelings instead of having an intrest in discussing subjects further I'll just laugh a little.
Lol, what do you expect from me? Before you expect/demand others to admit they were wrong, perhaps look into the mirror and apply that to yourself?

Now, you'll reply that's not needed. Which imo says enough given the numerous wrong assumptions you made.

I do agree that my approach is a poor way of engaging a discussion. But I just posted my feelings regarding a subject, without the intention to discuss it. Perhaps I shoudn't have.
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Unread 28 Jul 2010, 13:22   #535
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Everything you said here is correct. I didn't want to discuss it, I selfishly only posted my view on things. Sure, that's a poor way of discussing if that was infact my intention ... to start a discussion.

It is however baffling that when you've got opinions that "support" your view you're willing to bring them out as "relevant" but when they're "agaisnt" it you "don't wish to discuss it" or "they're not relevant". Of course, it just sums up to the amount of reasons why it's a grave mistake for anyone to even think of discussing with you, since, what comes to discussions, you're a black hole.

I genuinely did not expect anyone to be selfish, arrogant, and stupid enough to post on a discussions forum without any intent of actually discussing anything apart from simply expressing their subjective opinion (especially given your record on bringing outside opinions to the thread before). Of course, that was my mistake.

As a tip though, I urge you to write a blog on your opinions instead of using a discussions forum for it. You can shut out comments on blogs so you can just be there with your opinions.
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Unread 28 Jul 2010, 13:26   #536
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

For God's sake you'd expect the name of the forum to be a blunt giveaway on the forum's purpose.
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Unread 28 Jul 2010, 13:27   #537
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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It is however baffling that when you've got opinions that "support" your view you're willing to bring them out as "relevant" but when they're "agaisnt" it you "don't wish to discuss it" or "they're not relevant". Of course, it just sums up to the amount of reasons why it's a grave mistake for anyone to even think of discussing with you, since, what comes to discussions, you're a black hole.

I genuinely did not expect anyone to be selfish, arrogant, and stupid enough to post on a discussions forum without any intent of actually discussing anything apart from simply expressing their subjective opinion (especially given your record on bringing outside opinions to the thread before). Of course, that was my mistake.

As a tip though, I urge you to write a blog on your opinions instead of using a discussions forum for it. You can shut out comments on blogs so you can just be there with your opinions.
Stop repeating yourself. Call me arrogant and selfish, it's a description that often fits me. Stupid well ... I guess that's your perception.
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Unread 28 Jul 2010, 13:32   #538
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

Yes, I see the whole picture now. You're on a General Discussions forum, without the intent to discuss anything, that's fair game for you. I can understand why a person of your self-perception and pride over such attributes would do so. Enjoy your stay.
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Unread 28 Jul 2010, 13:42   #539
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Yes, I see the whole picture now. You're on a General Discussions forum, without the intent to discuss anything, that's fair game for you. I can understand why a person of your self-perception and pride over such attributes would do so. Enjoy your stay.
Haha, so you're claiming every single reply you've made so far has been of decent contribution, on this forum? Please say yes, then I know enough.

If the answer is no, then I'd say: look in the mirror.

Btw, I find it rather ironic that you accuse me of not reading the full reply while it's quite clear you simply skip several posts or ignore them whenever they don't suit your goal.

I like it how you seem to be able to judge someone solely based on 1 thread or several replies in it. I've made over 4k posts, so yes ... this particular thread is really significant of how I usually post.
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Unread 28 Jul 2010, 13:49   #540
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

I think you should just re-read the whole thread. It might prove quite enlightening. It was so to me. There's no point whatsoever pursuing any discussion if the co-discussor is like you. Ditto.
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Unread 28 Jul 2010, 13:55   #541
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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I think you should just re-read the whole thread. It might prove quite enlightening. It was so to me. There's no point whatsoever pursuing any discussion if the co-discussor is like you. Ditto.
Glad that you're so open minded yourself. You're doing exactly what you accuse me of doing. That, added in a nice wrapping of belittling, but i see that's your posting style.

Question is, why do you keep pursuing this discussion with me when you conclude that there is no point in doing so?
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Unread 28 Jul 2010, 13:57   #542
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Question is, why do you keep pursuing this discussion with me when you conclude that there is no point in doing so?
Because I know by now that I can pretty much type anything down and hit enter and get the more or less expected reaction from you, as I will to these two lines. It'll come.
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Unread 28 Jul 2010, 14:00   #543
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Because I know by now that I can pretty much type anything down and hit enter and get the more or less expected reaction from you, as I will to these two lines. It'll come.
Hey, seems we got something in common then. Your reaction is extremely predictable and similar aswell.

But you being so open minded yourself, I'm sure you've come to that conclusion aswell, no?
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Unread 28 Jul 2010, 14:45   #544
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

See, there, we have a reply.
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Unread 28 Jul 2010, 14:46   #545
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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See, there, we have a reply.
Idem.
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