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Unread 2 May 2012, 19:10   #1
Tiamat101
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Beta r47

Hey Beta stats are up. Nothing is close to final not even entire sure they are going to be the stats yet opinions thoughts. No Flaming actual changes to be made to the stats themselves.
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Unread 2 May 2012, 19:28   #2
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Re: Beta r47

This is just a superficial and I assume your referring to the following beta stats

http://beta.planetarion.com/manual.p...n=654238863455

Could we have a bit of consistency in the naming? What I mean is this round the rogue is a FR class ships, according to the stats its now a BS class ship. I dont know about others but at the beginning of every round I feel like I am back at university and I have to study the stats to make sure I know what class each ship is. The targeting change I can accept but could we have some consistencies in ship classes such as the rogue, bomber, etc...

Notice I didnt mention the pegasus because terrans do not have a DE class ship so moving it to FR makes sense.

The weaver (cath) appears to be marked down as being a resource stealer. Is that correct or a mistake? Also the tarantualla is marked as being a steal ship for cath.

What kind of stats are you aiming for, ST or MT?
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Unread 2 May 2012, 19:52   #3
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Re: Beta r47

Ok things that are NOT in fact errors:

Tara:steal
Xan: Not all cloaked
Weaver: res Stealer


These are a ST set designed to promote lots of roid loss.
Please give me calcs so that I can see things that need tweaking or even changing.
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Unread 2 May 2012, 20:15   #4
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Re: Beta r47

Tia are you making these stats????
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Unread 2 May 2012, 20:35   #5
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Re: Beta r47

Are we* actually happy to see the continued existence of cargo ships? We've had them for a full round now. Has it improved the game?



* By 'we', I actually mean 'you', but oblige me, for the sake of rhetorics.
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Unread 2 May 2012, 21:01   #6
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Re: Beta r47

I dont think they have added anything to the game as such... expect to show up a coding flaw..

Maybe its because Zik Fi wasnt a brilliant fleet tho this round...

I cant understand Cat getting them tho for r47.. they have enough advantages already...

But hopefully their will be enough public opinion in the next few days that these stats will be scrapped
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Unread 3 May 2012, 03:52   #7
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Re: Beta r47

On a glance I have some comments:

Each ship having 1 target class is kinda nice imo.

Xans attack fleets seem very weak; the CO fleet has some potential but is easily stopped ingal by Fr/De class defense, the DE fleet gets butchered by viper + brokers. There is no teamup available to xan that will plug the holes in their attack fleets.

Cr class attack fleets are very strong, most anti Cr is Bs class, meaning that it wont be available for a while. Even after it becomes available scorpion + tycoon are very good at dealing with it. Drake is an ok anti Cr ship (actually the only thing that fires before Tarantula) but it still loses against Etd Cr.

It would be good to have a version of bcalc available with the stats to test some more.

Edit: If resource stealing ships will be available I think they should be available to each race, Im not a big fan of the shiptype but also dont feel strong enough to ask for their removal.
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Unread 3 May 2012, 06:10   #8
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Re: Beta r47

Well Kiaba and Benneh unless JBG wants to come back to make stats who else will make them? Plaguu who made these stats? These stats are TOTAL garbage you can do shit this round even in huge team ups.

As for Resource ships I personally would like them removed. As I said these stats are beta so changes to come. The Bcalc is Available in the beta.planetarion.com game.

Xan Co teams with Cat Fi but still loses to De ingal. If people want ill add 3 more ships to each race to make fi/co/fr/de/cr/bs playable as roiding fleets for everyone, But its been my understanding that people want fewer ships as opposed to 10-12 ships per race(not including pods/sk)
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Unread 7 May 2012, 00:31   #9
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Re: Beta r47

Tia, I don't mind you being the stat maker, but why do you always have to rearrange the race classes?

Cath is renowned for being CO class, not FI and the same concept with Xan being FI, not CO.
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Unread 7 May 2012, 03:47   #10
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Re: Beta r47

Because Clouds sometimes its better to mix things up a bit.
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Unread 7 May 2012, 11:38   #11
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Re: Beta r47

I really dislike xan having normal ships. As i feel it will make xan a lot harder to play for the less gifted players among us, as now fakes will be easier to spot(not just on i scans, but on (a)u scans too), and podfakes become less attractive to use. Granted this applies more to Spirits as to Banshee, as Spirits are needed in every DE attack while Banshee are only useful against xan filled galaxies (with Ghosts being the only DE class anti CO). In general i fear it will only benefit the more advanced xan players.

As for the Cathaar stealer, i think this can be a fun addition for a round. What i dislike about it is that it targets a zik roiding fleet, and as such allows for double steals considering it fires before buccaneers too. Add to that buccaneers effectiveness and thus ability to valuesteal up to 30%, i wouldn't be surprised if we end up with a number of big cath shipfarmers.
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Unread 7 May 2012, 12:58   #12
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Re: Beta r47

From the sound of things these stats are ignoring what little remains of the characteristics of each race.

Why?
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Unread 7 May 2012, 13:02   #13
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Re: Beta r47

A Cat steal ship? Really?
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Unread 7 May 2012, 13:11   #14
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Re: Beta r47

I think one should look backwards when we are making new stats.
I belive that the ships class/type should be more close to how it once was.
IE, Pegasus continues being a FI/CO shooting DE instead of an frigate, or Pegasus being developed into some sort of CR/BS shooting DE if you intend to go for FR pods for Terran.

As to the idea of making a normal Xan ship, forget about it, that would remove the whole point of Xan IMHO.

Id like a single target round, as long as the stats are balanced.
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Unread 9 May 2012, 06:46   #15
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Re: Beta r47

I gave a lot of holes into the strats except for fr/De, but ill never worry again about Fr/De because i could make them auto win and people would still not play them.

All the fleets have good attack options i except roid swapping to be a big thing especially on retals.

Some actual stats feedback would be nice not "tia sucks" or "why is cat fi" but some actuall "pegasus damage is too high" etc
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Unread 9 May 2012, 07:45   #16
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Re: Beta r47

One note is that at the moment Terran has no anti Fi ship, I guess thats a typo on the manual stats page that has to be fixed.

For the feedback youre asking for it would really help to play a beta. For now I can only comment on targetting,shipclasses and initiative. I feel that xan is stopped too easily when soloing, except when picking tgts in weak gals with CO (because of the Banshee and Bomber weak init). The DE fleet gets shot at for free by two eta -1 ships, so its practically worthless solo.

Other races have ok solo options (Ter/Zik) or strong solo options (Cath/Etd) so I think those are fine.
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Unread 9 May 2012, 08:41   #17
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Re: Beta r47

Well MiX thats why it has to team up vs good players xan + etd does just fine vs those fi/co fleets. Ok Cool Vipers shoot before you. But thats the nature of Single target there will Always be a free fire ship on your class. Except for cr/bs in these stats. Which im thinking of changing
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Unread 9 May 2012, 12:14   #18
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Re: Beta r47

There's no fi/co ship that targets fi for Zik and Etd. Pillager is 0 loss against 1 fi fleet, so Etd should be fine, but that's not the case for Zik.

Also, it's should be "Revenant", "Wyvern", "Aberration" and "Vsharrak".
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Unread 9 May 2012, 16:02   #19
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Re: Beta r47

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
Some actual stats feedback would be nice not "tia sucks" or "why is cat fi" but some actuall "pegasus damage is too high" etc
Trying to get to the fine-tuning before addressing the fundamental flaws is somewhat pointless. The phrase "trying to polish a turd" springs to mind.
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Unread 9 May 2012, 16:19   #20
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Re: Beta r47

Its a st round which means stats is automaticly offensive. And the fact that the attack ships outinits every def ship, will make it super offensive(something tells me this is what you are aiming for) With current stats a teamup of 3-4 allies on 1 shuold easily cap 25%-40% of their roids even if they ground. Imo way to offensive. Also every race is weak against themselves(but most of the races are weak against anyone so..)
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Unread 9 May 2012, 17:29   #21
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Re: Beta r47

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plaguuu View Post
Its a st round which means stats is automaticly offensive. And the fact that the attack ships outinits every def ship, will make it super offensive(something tells me this is what you are aiming for) With current stats a teamup of 3-4 allies on 1 shuold easily cap 25%-40% of their roids even if they ground.
Remember, the size of teamups is at least partly related to how hard it is to land. With more offensive stats, alliances will not need to bring 200 friends to be able to make a dent.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 9 May 2012, 18:22   #22
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Re: Beta r47

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Remember, the size of teamups is at least partly related to how hard it is to land. With more offensive stats, alliances will not need to bring 200 friends to be able to make a dent.
Ultores didnt need to bring all its mates to rape CT this round as their defence is weak at best... but they still did!

Alliances oversestimate how much force it will take all the time and thats why bashing happens.

Imo these stats look poor. The cat stealer really really bugs me especially when compounded to the fact that cat has been given the res ship too!!

I think a more fundemental issue is why are we having a ST round (due to fleet holes it pushes for higher activity) when were going into the summer (a time of year when activity drops off). ST should be for winter only.

I would say if ST goes ahead then you might aswell all miss the round and give it to Ultores, save us all the effort of signing up!!!
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Unread 9 May 2012, 18:30   #23
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Re: Beta r47

[18:27] <Kai> Appocomaster
[18:27] <Kai> can i ask a question?
[18:27] <Appocomaster> sure
[18:27] <Kai> is Tia offically making the stats or is he just making some stats and you'll decide if you use them
[18:28] <Appocomaster> I don't think we're using Tia's stats



SWEET

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Unread 9 May 2012, 18:36   #24
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Re: Beta r47

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcChas View Post
Trying to get to the fine-tuning before addressing the fundamental flaws is somewhat pointless. The phrase "trying to polish a turd" springs to mind.
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Unread 9 May 2012, 18:56   #25
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Re: Beta r47

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Ultores didnt need to bring all its mates to rape CT this round as their defence is weak at best... but they still did!

Alliances oversestimate how much force it will take all the time and thats why bashing happens.
CT losses in decreasing order: 11.4%, 8.6%, 7.0%, 6.7%. While those first two days show serious losses, overall they don't strike me as the kind of roid loss that indicates Ultores could've done it with, say, 2 fewer alliances. Also keep in mind that once you've saturated the defense, every additional fleet you send gets through, and you'll understand why alliances err on the side of caution.

I don't consider this proof that we'll see the same 4+ alliance pile-ons we see in MT rounds.
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Unread 9 May 2012, 19:01   #26
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Re: Beta r47

We will have to beg to differ about that one then. I think its very much the 'in' thing to do in PA now regardless of the whining and so on.

'Why take 1 friend into the battle when you can take 5!!'
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Unread 9 May 2012, 19:02   #27
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Re: Beta r47

also Kia Appoco said ST so i made ST. Would I rather see MT?, Yes I would. I personally hate ST its too easy to roid people and you cant play the value game.
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Unread 9 May 2012, 19:09   #28
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Re: Beta r47

Who cares Tia, you aint making them. I imagine the entire active playerbase of PA just went 'YAY!'
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Unread 9 May 2012, 21:14   #29
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Re: Beta r47

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We will have to beg to differ about that one then. I think its very much the 'in' thing to do in PA now regardless of the whining and so on.

'Why take 1 friend into the battle when you can take 5!!'
Because not all 5 friends are automatically all equally good friends, and it might be beneficial to limit the gains some of those friends have by not inviting them into a gangbanging. If the target of the gangbanging is roided dry by 5 alliances in 2 days, it might take 3 alliances 4 days, but overall the gain of your alliance might be higher. Especially if the 2 alliances not involved aren't 100% friendly, and might turn on you later.
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Unread 9 May 2012, 21:26   #30
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Re: Beta r47

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Who cares Tia, you aint making them. I imagine the entire active playerbase of pa just went 'Yay!'
Yay!

(Sorry, I just couldn't resist).
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Unread 9 May 2012, 21:43   #31
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Re: Beta r47

I dont care who makes em, i just point out what i think is universal flaws with going so far away from the general ideas about how the races should be.
IMHO it should be like
Terran big heavy armored ships with the best armor and EMP resitance.
Xan small effective ships with very low EMP resitance and low armor.
Cath effective roiders as their EMP freezes more than the ships costs.
Zik stealers who should be able to make a good mixed fleet with any luck stealing ships.
Though this is just my views, being loyal cath player find it a bit sad that the effective is so low these days, but i guess they gotta be weaker how the game is played these days.
Xans are way to much armored, and i think they are way to little effective, for me it looks like all races are more or less alike these days.
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Unread 9 May 2012, 21:48   #32
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Re: Beta r47

The stats are not overly bad, perhaps a bit too open ended.

the cath stealer is wrong and should be unmade

the res stealer is a nice addition, but again I find it wrong at cath on a general race look.

would make sense in my book to give zik/etd the res steal ship. (if anyone at all)

FR/DE seems to be a bad choice with these stats as the usual reason for going medium class is the possible flak opportunity to cover all classes with 2/3 races.

I would opt for atleast one multi target ship for each medium class (fr/de) - if indeed MT stats are the prefered choice for round 47.

I like the mix on CR/BS and FI/CO with the targeters and init.

I hope calcs will show that tycoons are valued significantly lower than it's BS counterparts, as a uber low init cloak ship is quite OP in itself.

I see no reason for the FI/CO change on xan/cath, reverse please, as it adds nothing to the game but a placebo change.

I like the fact that you need to mix CR and BS ships in ally strats to do decent coverage on def, it encourages alliances to go more than two races (even tho two prolly could work, atleast in one option)

looking forward to calcing a bit to see the eff of tycoon, Scorpion, pegasus and shadow.

Ofc. if these aint the stats being used at all, I guess it's irrelevant
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Unread 9 May 2012, 22:28   #33
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Re: Beta r47

I can confirm a new set of stats that is a mix of MT and ST but should be somewhat more attack oriented than the current stats will be up for view in the next day or so. The new set of stats are also flawed and still need work, and have a couple of interesting initiative changes that have not been tried in many rounds, but should be decent when finished. More soon.
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Unread 13 May 2012, 05:17   #34
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Re: Beta r47

Ok, new stats are up and have been tweaked to the point where they are worth criticizing so have at them! All feedback is welcome, as long as it doesn't involve flaming.

For the record these are Zaejii's stats which I have tweaked. The goal is to try and mix the best of ST with the best of MT (we'll see how we manage). We want offense oriented stats where team ups are not always necessary, but of course at times are beneficial.
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Unread 13 May 2012, 07:22   #35
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Re: Beta r47

On a first note I feel that D/C is a bit low in general, especially standing out was that D/C is lower than A/C on most xand ships as well. The only exception to the rule here are zik steal ships and the Vshraak for Etd.

For other races this may be appropriate but I feel that xand should have higher D/C.

Targeting and initiative seem to make Fi attack fleets very strong as well.
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Unread 13 May 2012, 08:34   #36
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Re: Beta r47

I'm seeing many more MT ships than I'd like, especially on Zik and Etd.
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Unread 13 May 2012, 09:10   #37
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Re: Beta r47

Silly question but what is MT/ST?
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Unread 13 May 2012, 09:20   #38
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Re: Beta r47

single target

and

multi target
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Unread 13 May 2012, 09:32   #39
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Re: Beta r47

ok so yes, it was a silly question.

Thank You

I feel the round needs to be set up so that it takes 1 or 2 fleets to hit a target, three at most. These attacks of 6+ fleets just to be able to land are rubbish :/
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Unread 13 May 2012, 12:25   #40
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Re: Beta r47

btw, Tycoon steals with 300 D/C and it does that AFTER pods take roids?? Isnt that weak to the point where the ship may as well not exist?
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Unread 13 May 2012, 12:27   #41
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Re: Beta r47

I generally like the stats, they're open to most races and classes for solo attks.

I'm not sure if I dig the FI pod at ter instead of the DE, they don't really bring anything to the table teamupwise with xan, and ETD DE seems quite left out to dry as a solo class with many targeters.

A few calcs will decide wether the etd DE can work as solo pod class.

otherwise I'm quite happy,
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Unread 13 May 2012, 13:00   #42
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Re: Beta r47

After a quick glance at stats and effectivities, I feel that overall armour is a bit high, while overall EMP resistence is a bit low. (mind you it might also be that overall damage is a bit low, while EMP ships have a bit high number of guns.

when it comes to targetting setup, I don't like the mix of single targetting/multi targetting as it is now. In order to make FR/DE a playable strategy, anti FR/DE ships should always be ST imho. This would at least get rid of overtargetting of these classes. What I do like is the fact that zik relies on fairly heavy stealing to get a decent FI/CO fleet, while for ETD achieving such is nearly impossible.

I do share killeah's concern over (ETD) DE, topped off with their inability to steal a fi/co fleet, it might make ETD obsolete all together. An option might be to switch zik FR to DE and etd DE to FR. But calcs will have to decide on that.
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Unread 13 May 2012, 14:36   #43
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Re: Beta r47

ATM, playing Beta I cannot find any reason why DE should be in the game. It needs to be modified so it is useful, or it may as well not be used
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Unread 13 May 2012, 15:50   #44
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Re: Beta r47

Ziks originally had DE pods which could have teamed with them, unfortunately zik wasn't viable so I made their DE attack class a CR attack class making them much more viable. The unfortunately side effect was it made etd DE rather weak. Thanks for pointing this out, I'll think about how to tweak things to make etd DE viable, probably removing some DE targeting is the right way to go.

I'll also take a look at the AC/DC ratios, they could be a bit off, I just left those alone for now as targeting and initiative were more important on the first pass.
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Unread 13 May 2012, 18:38   #45
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Re: Beta r47

Well usually just init's and targeting is enough to start analysing stats. But these stats are so out of whack that we NEED those A/C and D/C's to be at lease close to what they should be.

Ter: Why do they all have a D/C of 250 that means they are almost going to be 2:1 needed to kill ships that they t1. Which by definition means they are unplayable.

Xan: Have more armor than damage?!?! What kind of drugs are you on. Xan are suppose to be paper thin with great init and the ships that dont have good init have really high a/c and d/c.

Cath: Needs mote ST and less t2/t3. Cath are always strong espeically in ST rounds. As far as there Eff goes it should be atleast 150% at t1. If its anything less that ship has no use being built.

Zik: Init 31 stealers with 300 D/C come on man. Zik can barly function with out a D/c of atleast 450. If Ter/Xan/Etd ships are dealing more damage than zik stealers then why is Zik still in this game. I mean come on, Zik isn't strong because of stats or steal, Its strong because people cheat with it and farm ships.

Etd: Actually looks the closest to good. Need to bump up there D/c's just a tad maybe 30-60 points each. But otherwise looks solid, still don't like the init 31 stealer but what ever.


Overall we cant even test these stats because the D/C's are too out of whack. We need a set of Hyper Offensive , Solo based stats, and if the D/C's stay that low we cant even come close to that. I hope over the next week you'll get these stats to a "testable" stage.
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Unread 13 May 2012, 18:56   #46
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Re: Beta r47

No, we don't need a set of "hyper offensive" stats. We need a set of stats that is reasonably offensive.

As for A/C and D/C, you never "need" them to be anything in order to analyze the targeting and inits. You should have ignored them completely (as Monroe clearly did).
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Unread 13 May 2012, 23:23   #47
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Re: Beta r47

I dont analyse the init/targeting because it could mean nothing as the ac/dc actually determins how good a ship is not always but most of the time.
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Unread 14 May 2012, 04:09   #48
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Re: Beta r47

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Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
I dont analyse the init/targeting because it could mean nothing as the ac/dc actually determins how good a ship is not always but most of the time.
I strongly disagree, targeting and init is what matters, he who fires first wins, unless the A/C, D/C, or EMP is way out of whack. I've been analyzing stats in this game for 46 rounds, and targeting and init are the primaries, the others are secondaries (though can be important).

Once targeting/init is reasonable I will look at the secondary effects, and can use them to help balance out problems in targeting/init.
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Unread 14 May 2012, 04:22   #49
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Re: Beta r47

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
I dont analyse the init/targeting because it could mean nothing as the ac/dc actually determins how good a ship is not always but most of the time.
You shouldn't even be looking at them at this point, because of one simple fact: neither has Monroe.
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Unread 14 May 2012, 04:30   #50
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Re: Beta r47

A few changes:
Phoenix init to 5
Reverent init to 6
This change allows ter FI to hit xan, but xan FI to no longer hit xan... if xans are willing to spend resources on DE.

Widow now only targets CR
Viper T2 moved to Co and no T3.
cath had too much anti DE

Vshraak T2 and T3 swapped to make it more viable against CR
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