|
|
10 Mar 2015, 15:34
|
#51
|
Propaganda Chief
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Under the Rainbow
Posts: 4,740
|
Re: Round 61 BB stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by [B5]Londo
Broads were not zero loss at all, they fired first then they died and their owner took a hit, sometimes a big one.
Zero loss is when a ship shoots but doesnt get hit in return.
Im sure I do not need to remind people that the existence of the broad did nothing to stop FR totally dominating last round.
A simple suggestion to reduce FR would be to simply remove the Astropod. FR would need to steal their FR pods (and with both Mara and Smuggler providing opportunities this would not be to difficult if players were determined). The result would however, be a reduction of the number of Ghosts available for teamups, making FR overall somewhat more vulnerable to capital ships without actually nerfing anything.
|
Perhaps zero loss is the wrong word to use, indeed.
But with the defensive salvage, it was realy gonna make a lot to actualy be landable with any broads in def
http://game.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=pjox8by33pmoryv
This is a calc, 650k broads vs 2200k FR
__________________
RainbowS
RB Ely MISTU Angel Fusi0n 1up ToF VisioN CT FAnG ROCK
|
|
|
10 Mar 2015, 15:56
|
#52
|
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 957
|
Re: Round 61 BB stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher
The Tzens are insane, one fleet could force a recall of 4 Fi attackers.
Zero loss ships, even if not cloacked, its realy screwing things over if they are allready in a "popular" race
|
Fixed for your stats, then.
|
|
|
10 Mar 2015, 16:00
|
#53
|
Propaganda Chief
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Under the Rainbow
Posts: 4,740
|
Re: Round 61 BB stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrikc
Fixed for your stats, then.
|
How is this even remotely compareable?
If 75% of the top100 is xan at the end of this round, playing mainly FI, you should be put in charge of every important decision in the future concerning stats.
Im sure i got comments from Kaiba and others saying FI is too strong with these stats.
__________________
RainbowS
RB Ely MISTU Angel Fusi0n 1up ToF VisioN CT FAnG ROCK
|
|
|
10 Mar 2015, 16:08
|
#54
|
Propaganda Chief
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Under the Rainbow
Posts: 4,740
|
Re: Round 61 BB stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by isildurx
I don't see any way there's not going to be a ton of cath co + tara with these stats. People love going cath co, and when you only have to build four ships it's a pretty easy way to play. Have your active players go cath co + de and your "support"-planets go zik co + de.
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba
You need to not allow Xan fi to free roid 4 races.
The Good stats where stuff is quite balanced have Terran or ETD with a same init fi/co or a fr/de stopper that kills it dead (see Pegasus normally).
I know you want quirky stats with holes and nuances and cat ships that steal (horrible btw) but there is certain fundamentals you need to abide by to ensure that attacking options are 'fair'. This is one of them.
Let Xan Fi pwn Zik, let it be able to solo on ETD or TER. Everyone should be able to roid Cat and never let Xan roid itself (which you have done)
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by booji
Cat effs are high but I guess that will be brought down.
My main concern would be my usual hobby horse of xan; xan fi only out inited by xan tzen or by emp. xan fr only out inited by emp and cr/bs. Since the ships are hardly paper ships either...
|
__________________
RainbowS
RB Ely MISTU Angel Fusi0n 1up ToF VisioN CT FAnG ROCK
|
|
|
10 Mar 2015, 16:13
|
#55
|
Paso Leaute
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 919
|
Re: Round 61 BB stats
I agree with having the tzen (or a similar ship) as an inhibiter on xan fi which would indeed otherwise be OP.
However, how you cannot see that they are comparable to the Broadsword question baffles me. They perform the same function: A heavier ship that shoots before the attacking fleet forcing a recall solo. Indeed the tzen with a D/C of 464 is rather better at this than the r60 Broadsword's 409.
__________________
An optimist may see a light where there is none, but why must the pessimist always run to blow it out?
|
|
|
10 Mar 2015, 16:24
|
#56
|
Propaganda Chief
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Under the Rainbow
Posts: 4,740
|
Re: Round 61 BB stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by [B5]Londo
I agree with having the tzen (or a similar ship) as an inhibiter on xan fi which would indeed otherwise be OP.
However, how you cannot see that they are comparable to the Broadsword question baffles me. They perform the same function: A heavier ship that shoots before the attacking fleet forcing a recall solo. Indeed the tzen with a D/C of 464 is rather better at this than the r60 Broadsword's 409.
|
No.
Its not compareable.
It was said pre-round that FR would be the only doable strat to go, and i think it was pretty much proven to be the truth as Ult/BF/Bows/CT were mainly focusing on FR.
Having one ship within that race strat that totaly annihilates everything else is making it a completely diffrent scenario.
__________________
RainbowS
RB Ely MISTU Angel Fusi0n 1up ToF VisioN CT FAnG ROCK
|
|
|
10 Mar 2015, 16:52
|
#57
|
Paso Leaute
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 919
|
Re: Round 61 BB stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher
No.
Its not compareable.
It was said pre-round that FR would be the only doable strat to go, and i think it was pretty much proven to be the truth as Ult/BF/Bows/CT were mainly focusing on FR.
Having one ship within that race strat that totaly annihilates everything else is making it a completely diffrent scenario.
|
You have utterly lost me now.
So because everyone was going FR the FR massacre machine was a bad thing?
I said earlier that the problem with the Broadsword was that it was a xan ship and so the FR allies happened to be the ones with the FR stoppers resulting in a serious political effect.
You rejected this point earlier.
Either your objection is against a def ship prefiring the attack (with good D/C so it get decent salvage) and thus allowing solo covering of multiple attackers in which case the Tzen is exactly the same.
OR
Your objection is strategic/political that having the FR stopper availible to the FR allies is the problem, in which case an FR stopper belonging to a non FR race should be acceptable.
NB I do not actually want a Broadsword added to these stats I am simply perplexed by your inconsistency.
I re-iterate that I think removing the astropod alters the balance against FR enough for me to be happy. It makes the War Cruiser a pseudo broadsword, but one for which there is the obvious counter of capping FR pods for your etds, thus bringing the Ghost back into play. You simply ignored this earlier.
__________________
An optimist may see a light where there is none, but why must the pessimist always run to blow it out?
|
|
|
10 Mar 2015, 17:05
|
#58
|
Propaganda Chief
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Under the Rainbow
Posts: 4,740
|
Re: Round 61 BB stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by [B5]Londo
You have utterly lost me now.
So because everyone was going FR the FR massacre machine was a bad thing?
I said earlier that the problem with the Broadsword was that it was a xan ship and so the FR allies happened to be the ones with the FR stoppers resulting in a serious political effect.
You rejected this point earlier.
Either your objection is against a def ship prefiring the attack (with good D/C so it get decent salvage) and thus allowing solo covering of multiple attackers in which case the Tzen is exactly the same.
OR
Your objection is strategic/political that having the FR stopper availible to the FR allies is the problem, in which case an FR stopper belonging to a non FR race should be acceptable.
NB I do not actually want a Broadsword added to these stats I am simply perplexed by your inconsistency.
I re-iterate that I think removing the astropod alters the balance against FR enough for me to be happy. It makes the War Cruiser a pseudo broadsword, but one for which there is the obvious counter of capping FR pods for your etds, thus bringing the Ghost back into play. You simply ignored this earlier.
|
Did i reject that point earlier?
Yes it was a problem the only anti FR was in a FR race yes.
And the fact that there were so few decent options for ship strats in the last rounds stat, it made it worse.
I belive my stats have multiple options for ships strats, therefor a single ship wont have the same impact as it did last round.
We can always argue for the next few days about last rounds stats, its not gonna get us anywhere closer to a solution if we are miles apart in opinion on how they played out, and was set up to play out.
__________________
RainbowS
RB Ely MISTU Angel Fusi0n 1up ToF VisioN CT FAnG ROCK
|
|
|
10 Mar 2015, 18:23
|
#59
|
Mordar, Keel, Reip
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Finland
Posts: 333
|
Re: Round 61 BB stats
honestly, after looking deeper in to the stats and running some calcs, FR isn't all that, there's 13 or 14 ships that shoot FR T1, quite a few of them are high eff emp, 50% of value in DE pretty much forces a pull on a 3 man FR teamup, that being about half/half of roach/mara. Same goes with war cruisers or pirates and mantis, a tad more, 55% of value or so with dragons and avengers, and around 55% for co fleets too... and you can even mix the def a lot.
So after testing, FR ain't all that in attacks, even if you pretty much optimize the ships in the teamup.
__________________
Wolf in a pirates clothing to the highest degree, standing behind the curtains.
All the war propaganda, all the screaming and lies and hatred, comes invariably from people who are not fighting. - George Orwell
|
|
|
10 Mar 2015, 19:23
|
#60
|
Propaganda Chief
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Under the Rainbow
Posts: 4,740
|
Re: Round 61 BB stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoXiouS
honestly, after looking deeper in to the stats and running some calcs, FR isn't all that, there's 13 or 14 ships that shoot FR T1, quite a few of them are high eff emp, 50% of value in DE pretty much forces a pull on a 3 man FR teamup, that being about half/half of roach/mara. Same goes with war cruisers or pirates and mantis, a tad more, 55% of value or so with dragons and avengers, and around 55% for co fleets too... and you can even mix the def a lot.
So after testing, FR ain't all that in attacks, even if you pretty much optimize the ships in the teamup.
|
Well Tiamata has allready decided it is the SHIT in these stats
__________________
RainbowS
RB Ely MISTU Angel Fusi0n 1up ToF VisioN CT FAnG ROCK
|
|
|
10 Mar 2015, 20:18
|
#61
|
Mordar, Keel, Reip
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Finland
Posts: 333
|
Re: Round 61 BB stats
I did like the FR on the first look too, but tbh, now I just think the whole set is a lot broken now and went from the more offensive to too easily defended. Every ship and pretty much every combination has too easy counter from easily available ships. But... I will have another look another day and may think differently then.
__________________
Wolf in a pirates clothing to the highest degree, standing behind the curtains.
All the war propaganda, all the screaming and lies and hatred, comes invariably from people who are not fighting. - George Orwell
|
|
|
10 Mar 2015, 22:26
|
#62
|
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 957
|
Re: Round 61 BB stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher
How is this even remotely compareable?
If 75% of the top100 is xan at the end of this round, playing mainly FI, you should be put in charge of every important decision in the future concerning stats.
Im sure i got comments from Kaiba and others saying FI is too strong with these stats.
|
I never said Xan Fi was too strong or too weak. I just pointed out your absolute of 'zero loss ships' (referring to ships firing first without Emp helping out) really screw things over, when in your own stats there is an exact example of that in them.
Not that I'm surprised that you're saying one thing one day and saying the opposite the next, I've come to expect it in fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher
Yes it was a problem the only anti FR was in a FR race yes.
|
You're like a fountain of irony...
|
|
|
10 Mar 2015, 23:23
|
#63
|
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 846
|
Re: Round 61 BB stats
One of the ways that you can Limit the Fr popular train is leave enough Holes in the individual races. So that people will be easier to roid, as they will have out of class defense ships vs 2-3 meta classes meaning less flack to go around. It would also require a bigger set of team ups which also would limit the attractiveness to it because it would require more players to make an effective team.
The way i would go about this is the following:
Ter Fr would still be able to target all 5 other classes but at no significant Init adv but with solid A/C and middling D/C. This will still give ter the "fortable" option as they can put 90% value into one class and likely still be really hard to roid.
Xan Fr would be 3 ships that only targets 4 of the 5 classes. One at significant Init adv(tzen) one at an okay advantage as well but out of eta Def( likly vs Co) and finally having a poor init advantage ship with a goodish effeciency vs 2 other classes. This would allow Xan's to still be able to attack quite well with it while still being open to 2-4 metaclasses on defense.
Zik Fr should have 3 ships: 1 good kill ship vs upper class(cr or bs) and 2 solidly a/c d/c steal ships vs fi/co and De or Cr or Bs. This would again allow for attacks vs the emp races and also give Zik a good option for steals. While still being able to prove some help to the team.
Etd Fr is basiclly fine the way it is. It only target 4 classes but maybe remove either Cr or Bs and put De since it would double up with zik being able to init adv over the other Hull3 ship. Thus making the team up need both a zik and Etd to stop ingal def.
Over all you would be left with: Terran that fires at everything at no particular init adv but with enough eff to be meaningful and would also be a great concentration of value. Xan would be in charge of Fi and to some extent of Co, while still lending strength vs Cr/bs and be 0 help vs De. Zik would be able to provide a strong damage output vs fi and Co and able to help with De, while their main strength would be there high init vs either cr or bs. Finally Etd would still have the "cloaked" presence and able to shoot well into de/bs but not be that effective vs Fi/co or Cr.
I think this is a change that could replace the need for a "broadsword" type ship vs Fr due to the amount of player it would take to build this team up. While still not making 4 races able to concetrate value into one class and become "fort" that easily. We haven't seen a round where 4 races have attack fleets in the same class. The most i can remember is 3 races having shared Attack fleets and i remember it being quite a pain in the ASS.
__________________
R50-55 Faceless
|
|
|
11 Mar 2015, 00:17
|
#64
|
Propaganda Chief
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Under the Rainbow
Posts: 4,740
|
Re: Round 61 BB stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrikc
I never said Xan Fi was too strong or too weak. I just pointed out your absolute of 'zero loss ships' (referring to ships firing first without Emp helping out) really screw things over, when in your own stats there is an exact example of that in them.
Not that I'm surprised that you're saying one thing one day and saying the opposite the next, I've come to expect it in fact.
You're like a fountain of irony...
|
You clearly got no clue what you are talking about, and what im talking about.
R60 stats and R55 stats is perfect example of what im aiming at with the Broadsword.
Yes Tzen is prefireing FI, and yes its in the same race, but FI will most likely NOT be the ship strat of choice for top alliances, therefor the effect of this "free fire" ship will not even be remotely close to broadsword this round, or clipper/marauder R55
__________________
RainbowS
RB Ely MISTU Angel Fusi0n 1up ToF VisioN CT FAnG ROCK
|
|
|
11 Mar 2015, 06:11
|
#65
|
Error
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 359
|
Re: Round 61 BB stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher
You clearly got no clue what you are talking about, and what im talking about.
R60 stats and R55 stats is perfect example of what im aiming at with the Broadsword.
Yes Tzen is prefireing FI, and yes its in the same race, but FI will most likely NOT be the ship strat of choice for top alliances, therefor the effect of this "free fire" ship will not even be remotely close to broadsword this round, or clipper/marauder R55
|
u cant say that BB. imho u cant see the future to point out what will happen or not. maybe is better keep to the facts, that u have a exaclty same ship that u pointed out as horrible for the game strat. hope u understand im not trying to promote something bad about u.
about the stats, i like the idea of multiple strats, but i dont know if add pods will archive it. again, imho, u can try different things, something i like from last rounds was covop some key pods to use with ace ships.
__________________
#braSilFTW
|
|
|
11 Mar 2015, 07:45
|
#66
|
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 297
|
Re: Round 61 BB stats
Just a tip, Butcher if you reply a bit less in this topic ( or just post the link and dont post anything else), you might get more useful feedback and less reactions to all your crazy ideas and posts you've made.
I'm sure you love the forum warring, but going on like this your shipstats wont get chosen again for sure ( shipstats might be ok, but if this crazy guy made them, something must be wrong with them, better go with the safe option) and you're just gonna bitch even more about R61 shipstats.
|
|
|
11 Mar 2015, 08:04
|
#67
|
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 957
|
Re: Round 61 BB stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher
You clearly got no clue what you are talking about, and what im talking about.
|
Well, you're right about the second half. I'll try to explain my issue in a way that even you can understand.
Having a ship that stops an attack class in all cases, without possibility of teamups to help counter it (like EMP), is usually bad. I say usually, because personally I think a Fr/De could be allowed to stop a Fi/Co - the same for a Cr/Bs against a Fr/De. Where it is definitely NOT okay though is when the ship and the fleet it counters are of the same race (r60 Broadsword = no no, War Frigate = yes yes!), because then the value of that race is incredibly hard/impossible to balance. Let's take the current Xan Fi fleet and Tzens for example.
- If Xan Fi is strong/used a lot, the Tzen is also very useful, and Xan becomes a great race.
- If Xan Fi is weak/not used a lot, the Tzen is not very valuable, and Xan now has two weak attack fleets. [three really, as Xan Bs brings nothing unique to the teamup - change them into Cr?]
We saw this issue last round with the Broadsword, where Frigates were a decent/good attack class and good/great defense class. This in turn made Xan one of the best races to have in your alliance/galaxy if for no other reason but their ability to stop this fleet.
As you said earlier, a ship that always stops an attack is deadly even if it weren't cloaked and the Tzen is both. If you swapped Ter's init advantage over Co with Xan's init advantage over Fi, Xan would be a lot healthier.
|
|
|
11 Mar 2015, 08:07
|
#68
|
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 846
|
Re: Round 61 BB stats
Also on a side note you really should balance Blackwidows Emp eff. 300% vs illusions and 200%+ vs xan Fi where 85% Dagger.
Even beetle vs Illusion is stupid 270%. In fact looking it over the Emp is Totally messed up across the stats ships hit at 200% are just stupid. I hope this was an oversight or just lack of time to sit down and actually balance them out.
__________________
R50-55 Faceless
|
|
|
11 Mar 2015, 08:10
|
#69
|
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 957
|
Re: Round 61 BB stats
I believe the Dagger's is intentional, to make them flak better for Zik Co (until you steal some Xan Fi).
|
|
|
11 Mar 2015, 15:16
|
#70
|
Addicted since R17
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Ireland
Posts: 141
|
Re: Round 61 BB stats
Are these the stats or does morph stats have a chance?it would be so nice seeing anything different like his set for last round that got passed over. Ter and zik just two pods and all else 3 is just crap same old bollox yeh sure zik can steal pods but you cant make a plan around 'hopfully' stealing pods, or we can just cheat coz who cares anymore, ill give out free co pods for ziks feel free to pm for free pods
__________________
h-a = CT = h-a = Vision = ODDR = Apprime = ODDR = xVx = h-a = xVx = ODDR -Ult -Rock--Fang-HODORS-ODDR-ND-Kittenz-Carisian-Vgn-Tal Shiar-CaRn-ODDR
Best finish's 15, 17, 18, 25, 27, 27, 29, 38, 38
Co founder ODDR/Tal Shiar
Regular member of fleet crashing club
“A man's errors are his portals of discovery.”
James Joyce
|
|
|
11 Mar 2015, 16:02
|
#71
|
mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
|
Re: Round 61 BB stats
There are no "the" stats, yet. Either could be picked.
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
|
|
|
11 Mar 2015, 16:04
|
#72
|
Propaganda Chief
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Under the Rainbow
Posts: 4,740
|
Re: Round 61 BB stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat101
Also on a side note you really should balance Blackwidows Emp eff. 300% vs illusions and 200%+ vs xan Fi where 85% Dagger.
Even beetle vs Illusion is stupid 270%. In fact looking it over the Emp is Totally messed up across the stats ships hit at 200% are just stupid. I hope this was an oversight or just lack of time to sit down and actually balance them out.
|
The illusions are just simply messed up due to the fact i kept raising up the cost of them, it will be fixed.
I did not count the pods in the eff average calculation
__________________
RainbowS
RB Ely MISTU Angel Fusi0n 1up ToF VisioN CT FAnG ROCK
|
|
|
11 Mar 2015, 16:05
|
#73
|
Propaganda Chief
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Under the Rainbow
Posts: 4,740
|
Re: Round 61 BB stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
There are no "the" stats, yet. Either could be picked.
|
You know as well as me this is not true
__________________
RainbowS
RB Ely MISTU Angel Fusi0n 1up ToF VisioN CT FAnG ROCK
|
|
|
11 Mar 2015, 18:54
|
#74
|
Propaganda Chief
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Under the Rainbow
Posts: 4,740
|
Re: Round 61 BB stats
Okey.
Some changes: To make FR a bit stronger even though peopel claim its too strong:
Mantis from 203% to 183% T1.
Interceptor reduced armor by 1.
__________________
RainbowS
RB Ely MISTU Angel Fusi0n 1up ToF VisioN CT FAnG ROCK
|
|
|
11 Mar 2015, 19:00
|
#75
|
Propaganda Chief
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Under the Rainbow
Posts: 4,740
|
Re: Round 61 BB stats
Pods EMP res has been fixed.
Black Widows been made more expensive with a following armor/ER upgrade.
__________________
RainbowS
RB Ely MISTU Angel Fusi0n 1up ToF VisioN CT FAnG ROCK
|
|
|
12 Mar 2015, 04:15
|
#76
|
Propaganda Chief
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Under the Rainbow
Posts: 4,740
|
Re: Round 61 BB stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat101
Fi:5
Co:6
Fr:11
De:8
Cr:5
Bs:7
That is a HUGE disparity of ship in the universe. This is not counting Pods or sk's. If you don't think everyone is going to use Fr you are out of your mind, and as it was pointed out the Fr teamup is just about unstoppable so why wouldnt everyone just use Fr?
Unless you actually take some of the fr out, or put in other ships from other classes that provide other options for dealing with Fr its going to be a Fr round.
|
R30/R51(where these stats are taken from)
FI: 5
CO: 6
FR: 10
DE: 6
CR: 7
BS: 9
Im not sure if you commented on this in those stats threads aswell?
Obviously this has NOTHING to do with how the stats play out.
Im sure your stats of R48/R55/R59 had all their meta-classes more or less perfectly matched up, and im pretty sure nobody wants to rerun those, or even rework them for a future round.
__________________
RainbowS
RB Ely MISTU Angel Fusi0n 1up ToF VisioN CT FAnG ROCK
Last edited by BloodyButcher; 12 Mar 2015 at 06:16.
|
|
|
12 Mar 2015, 06:10
|
#77
|
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 957
|
Re: Round 61 BB stats
To say that Frigates will be used by everyone simply because they're the most prevalent class is almost as silly as saying the number of ships in classes have NOTHING to do with how they play out. As an extreme example, stats with 1 Fi/Co/De/Cr/Bs and 20 Fr would obviously be mostly played by Fr and anti-Fr.
It's not that having 4 races with a Frigate attack fleet means the stats are unbalanced, but it's harder to keep everything equal than if there was a better distribution of attack fleets.
PS. Tia didn't make r60 stats, and they'd be fine with some tweaks. r55 would be alright as well if you'd manage to fix Etd.
|
|
|
12 Mar 2015, 06:27
|
#78
|
Propaganda Chief
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Under the Rainbow
Posts: 4,740
|
Re: Round 61 BB stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrikc
To say that Frigates will be used by everyone simply because they're the most prevalent class is almost as silly as saying the number of ships in classes have NOTHING to do with how they play out. As an extreme example, stats with 1 Fi/Co/De/Cr/Bs and 20 Fr would obviously be mostly played by Fr and anti-Fr.
It's not that having 4 races with a Frigate attack fleet means the stats are unbalanced, but it's harder to keep everything equal than if there was a better distribution of attack fleets.
PS. Tia didn't make r60 stats, and they'd be fine with some tweaks. r55 would be alright as well if you'd manage to fix Etd.
|
Certainly, stats become "boring" or "defensive" when you can cover all your bases with two races that beats every other solution of metaclasses.
If we can have all the alliances going FR spreading their race distrobution over all the 4 races, surely there will be more suitable targets for the diffrent races out there?
__________________
RainbowS
RB Ely MISTU Angel Fusi0n 1up ToF VisioN CT FAnG ROCK
Last edited by BloodyButcher; 12 Mar 2015 at 06:39.
|
|
|
12 Mar 2015, 11:48
|
#79
|
Error
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 359
|
Re: Round 61 BB stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher
You know as well as me this is not true
|
Enlight US please
__________________
#braSilFTW
|
|
|
12 Mar 2015, 12:22
|
#80
|
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 846
|
Re: Round 61 BB stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher
Certainly, stats become "boring" or "defensive" when you can cover all your bases with two races that beats every other solution of metaclasses.
If we can have all the alliances going FR spreading their race distrobution over all the 4 races, surely there will be more suitable targets for the diffrent races out there?
|
If 4 bloody races are going Fr then don't you think it will force everyone in the universe to counter Fr. Because of this focus, that YOU the stat maker are making happen, it will just cause the politics to be "the Fr side" and the "anti Fr side" Which will become stupid and pointless as the Fr side would CLEARLY have the adv since its a non-combatable teamup. There is no way to "stop" it w/o commiting huge amounts of value or taking huge losses.
__________________
R50-55 Faceless
|
|
|
12 Mar 2015, 12:28
|
#81
|
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 846
|
Re: Round 61 BB stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrikc
PS. Tia didn't make r60 stats, and they'd be fine with some tweaks. r55 would be alright as well if you'd manage to fix Etd.
|
I also didnt make R48 stats.
__________________
R50-55 Faceless
|
|
|
12 Mar 2015, 12:53
|
#82
|
Error
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 359
|
Re: Round 61 BB stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat101
If 4 bloody races are going Fr then don't you think it will force everyone in the universe to counter Fr. Because of this focus, that YOU the stat maker are making happen, it will just cause the politics to be "the Fr side" and the "anti Fr side" Which will become stupid and pointless as the Fr side would CLEARLY have the adv since its a non-combatable teamup. There is no way to "stop" it w/o commiting huge amounts of value or taking huge losses.
|
i agree
again, add a lot of pods in each race dont means ppl will play with more strats, thats for sure the problem with fr.
__________________
#braSilFTW
|
|
|
12 Mar 2015, 12:59
|
#83
|
mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
|
Re: Round 61 BB stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher
You know as well as me this is not true
|
I don't appreciate being called a liar.
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
|
|
|
12 Mar 2015, 13:45
|
#84
|
Mordar, Keel, Reip
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Finland
Posts: 333
|
Re: Round 61 BB stats
Eh, atm you can cover pretty much everything with 2 races, thx to that ridiculously efficient emp. and no, even if FR seems like the obvious choice, it's not actually the best choice there is. Do your own work goddamit and actually find out how the stats work in "real life" situations.
__________________
Wolf in a pirates clothing to the highest degree, standing behind the curtains.
All the war propaganda, all the screaming and lies and hatred, comes invariably from people who are not fighting. - George Orwell
|
|
|
12 Mar 2015, 14:05
|
#85
|
Propaganda Chief
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Under the Rainbow
Posts: 4,740
|
Re: Round 61 BB stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoXiouS
Eh, atm you can cover pretty much everything with 2 races, thx to that ridiculously efficient emp. and no, even if FR seems like the obvious choice, it's not actually the best choice there is. Do your own work goddamit and actually find out how the stats work in "real life" situations.
|
So who am i suppose to listen to? You or Tiamata?
Who should Appocomaster listen to when choosing stats, person A or person B, clearly one of them has to be wrong, or both could be wrong.
__________________
RainbowS
RB Ely MISTU Angel Fusi0n 1up ToF VisioN CT FAnG ROCK
|
|
|
12 Mar 2015, 14:07
|
#86
|
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 846
|
Re: Round 61 BB stats
Oh I am sure Fr actually isnt that good. I just don't want to see so many ****ing Fr built if these stats get chosen. Every attack and def fleet will revolve on anti fr.
__________________
R50-55 Faceless
|
|
|
12 Mar 2015, 14:21
|
#87
|
Mordar, Keel, Reip
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Finland
Posts: 333
|
Re: Round 61 BB stats
BB: You do your choice who you listen to, you in the end should know your set the best.
Tia: there's 4 actually decent FR ships, out of 11. 5 out of 7 BS are decent, 5 out of 7 CO, 3 out 5 FI (even counting Tzens as the #1 galdef ships), 5 out of 8 DE, 4 out of 6 CR.
With that balance, all this hype around FR is way overrated, even if there are more options, there's actually less or equal good options compared to every other class but FI.
__________________
Wolf in a pirates clothing to the highest degree, standing behind the curtains.
All the war propaganda, all the screaming and lies and hatred, comes invariably from people who are not fighting. - George Orwell
Last edited by NoXiouS; 12 Mar 2015 at 14:22.
Reason: fixed a typo
|
|
|
12 Mar 2015, 14:28
|
#88
|
Propaganda Chief
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Under the Rainbow
Posts: 4,740
|
Re: Round 61 BB stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoXiouS
BB: You do your choice who you listen to, you in the end should know your set the best.
Tia: there's 4 actually decent FR ships, out of 11. 5 out of 7 BS are decent, 5 out of 7 CO, 3 out 5 FI (even counting Tzens as the #1 galdef ships), 5 out of 8 DE, 4 out of 6 CR.
With that balance, all this hype around FR is way overrated, even if there are more options, there's actually less or equal good options compared to every other class but FI.
|
Well i belive the FR are good, but not OPed.
with 4 FR races you get the advantages of the ships that are good outside the FR class. On the other hand not all of the FR ships are "good ships", but if combined correctly, or against certain race strat they will be awesome.
The fact that the other classes have less races for their roiding class, there they need more "good ships" to make it viable as a allie strat option.
__________________
RainbowS
RB Ely MISTU Angel Fusi0n 1up ToF VisioN CT FAnG ROCK
|
|
|
12 Mar 2015, 14:31
|
#89
|
Sain†s
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 331
|
Re: Round 61 BB stats
That's as may be, but if you give 4 out of 5 races viable FR roiding fleets then that's what people are going to build, whether they're good or not, because you can always cover some of the holes with FR from other races. It's going to happen, with a kind of depressing predictability.
__________________
☠ | ROCK | BowS | Sain†s
|
|
|
12 Mar 2015, 15:13
|
#90
|
Propaganda Chief
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Under the Rainbow
Posts: 4,740
|
Re: Round 61 BB stats
R30 race ratio http://beta.planetarion.com/history/...?id=4&round=30
Code:
top | ter% | cat% | xan% | zik% | etd%
----+------+------+------+------+-----
200 | 19.5 | 17.5 | 14.5 | 16.5 | 32.0
100 | 11.0 | 23.0 | 14.0 | 20.0 | 32.0
50 | 12.0 | 22.0 | 10.0 | 18.0 | 38.0
R51 race ratio http://beta.planetarion.com/history/...?id=4&round=51
Code:
top | ter% | cat% | xan% | zik% | etd%
----+------+------+------+------+-----
200 | 23.5 | 33.5 | 8.0 | 9.5 | 25.5
100 | 27.0 | 38.0 | 8.0 | 8.0 | 19.0
50 | 32.0 | 38.0 | 10.0 | 8.0 | 12.0
Winning alliance R51
Code:
racespread
| ter% | cat% | xan% | zik% | etd%
+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+
| 27.87 | 21.31 | 18.03 | 11.48 | 21.31
68% of the top 100 was in a top 5 alliance. The top 5 alliance was 35% of the total planets.
32% of the top 100 was NOT in a top5 alliance this round.
------------
Comparing this to last rounds stats
Code:
top | ter% | cat% | xan% | zik% | etd%
----+------+------+------+------+-----
200 | 16.0 | 13.5 | 27.5 | 9.0 | 34.0
100 | 15.0 | 9.0 | 33.0 | 4.0 | 39.0
50 | 20.0 | 8.0 | 24.0 | 2.0 | 46.0
Winning alliance R60
Code:
racespread
| ter% | cat% | xan% | zik% | etd%
+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+
| 6.67 | 6.67 | 31.67 | 8.33 | 46.66
81% of the top 100 was in a top 5 alliance. The top 5 alliance was 41% of the total planets.
19% of the top 100 was NOT in a top5 alliance this round.
__________________
RainbowS
RB Ely MISTU Angel Fusi0n 1up ToF VisioN CT FAnG ROCK
Last edited by BloodyButcher; 12 Mar 2015 at 16:15.
|
|
|
12 Mar 2015, 15:47
|
#91
|
Mordar, Keel, Reip
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Finland
Posts: 333
|
Re: Round 61 BB stats
Tommy: There's no viable FR roiding fleets for 4 races, there's a 3(4) race requirement for the FR to work as attack fleets, at all. Where as there are other options that can more or less fly solo or max 2 man teams.
FR is way better used as defships than as attack ships and even then it's most of the time just flak for the DE. 3-4 man teams - even if not uncommon - as a requirement to land anything is just ridiculous.
__________________
Wolf in a pirates clothing to the highest degree, standing behind the curtains.
All the war propaganda, all the screaming and lies and hatred, comes invariably from people who are not fighting. - George Orwell
|
|
|
12 Mar 2015, 15:48
|
#92
|
Sain†s
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 331
|
Re: Round 61 BB stats
NoXiouS: I'm not arguing with you. I'm saying that if you give four races FR pods, then the universe is going to be full of FR, whether that's sane or not.
__________________
☠ | ROCK | BowS | Sain†s
|
|
|
12 Mar 2015, 16:10
|
#93
|
Mordar, Keel, Reip
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Finland
Posts: 333
|
Re: Round 61 BB stats
Oh, universe, pls do go FR and my life when DCing is a lot easier. 3-4 man teams = half the waves you'd normally get from 1-2 man teams and the teams are still covered relatively easy.
You'd need a pretty freaking organized alliance to go for FR as an attack option, even if you (are forced to) get 4 races to work with. One player from the teamup fails launch and it's covered with a single fleet. FR isn't even really fakeable, as the races don't support each other in any other way than FR, except with some really sneaky and most likely not legit fleet planning. Def-wise those 4 races can work to cover somewhat every other strat, but then it's mostly PL/ingal def and/or wasting a lot of value to cover an inc.
__________________
Wolf in a pirates clothing to the highest degree, standing behind the curtains.
All the war propaganda, all the screaming and lies and hatred, comes invariably from people who are not fighting. - George Orwell
|
|
|
12 Mar 2015, 16:21
|
#94
|
Sain†s
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 331
|
Re: Round 61 BB stats
I really kinda want that to be how the round goes now. You make it sound so appealing!
__________________
☠ | ROCK | BowS | Sain†s
|
|
|
12 Mar 2015, 16:55
|
#95
|
mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
|
Re: Round 61 BB stats
NoXiouS, you're underestimating the value you get out of having 60% of your alliance's value in Fr (or De, which is just as bad). All other things being equal, that means an attacking alliance needs 60% of its value firing at Fr.
And when that's really the case (of necessity, as Tommy said), the game becomes boring. If you have more anti-Fr than the opponent has Fr, you win. If not, they win. The only attacks will therefore be massive gang bangs, because there's no nuance, no clever strategies to take advantage of your opponent's weakness. It's just Fr and anti-Fr, allowing only 4 vs. 1 gang bangs, with 6+ fleets per wave, because that's the only thing that gets you (a handful of) roids. Similarly, as a solo planet, you can defend so easily with Fr or De, that only logical strategy is spacebricks and warring the mining page.
This is exactly what happened in r51, which is why I've already said that the r51 stats are a bad starting point for a new set. In fact, quite possibly, they're the worst, not because they're obviously terrible, because they're subtly terrible. If you really want to fix them, I think you'd need to remove another class interaction, from both Fr and De. I'd argue for removing Co/Fr and Fi/De, but it doesn't matter much which you pick. That leaves Fr and De with 4 target classes each. Hell, you could remove the interaction between Fr/Cr or Fr/Bs as well and still have a perfectly viable set.
In fact, the more I think about it, the more I feel for that approach. At that point, though, you might as well have started from scratch.
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
|
|
|
12 Mar 2015, 18:22
|
#96
|
Mordar, Keel, Reip
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Finland
Posts: 333
|
Re: Round 61 BB stats
Mzy: I've been running strats for quite a while now, I'm not underestimating the value an alliance would put to attackships. I just did enough research to stand behind what I said.
I do agree with Mzy that removing some interactions could improve the set and add variation, and I agree to that too that if that's done, it's same to start over from scratch.
There are a few doable options in this set, but a lot of flaws still (no heavy ship fires DE T1 when there are several DE that shoots heavy T1 for example).
__________________
Wolf in a pirates clothing to the highest degree, standing behind the curtains.
All the war propaganda, all the screaming and lies and hatred, comes invariably from people who are not fighting. - George Orwell
|
|
|
12 Mar 2015, 18:45
|
#97
|
Propaganda Chief
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Under the Rainbow
Posts: 4,740
|
Re: Round 61 BB stats
In wich ways are these stats less playable than R51?
__________________
RainbowS
RB Ely MISTU Angel Fusi0n 1up ToF VisioN CT FAnG ROCK
|
|
|
12 Mar 2015, 19:55
|
#98
|
Paso Leaute
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 919
|
Re: Round 61 BB stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher
In wich ways are these stats less playable than R51?
|
Mz didnt say that they were: he said if you want a good set dont start from R51.
Ofc I did not play R51 so cannot comment.
Your presumption that Mz said your stats were worse than R51 sums up your whole attitude to this thread. You seem to feel you are under siege, desperate to defend your stats against all possible criticism, real or imagined, and consequently are not taking on board helpful comments. (such as there are)
__________________
An optimist may see a light where there is none, but why must the pessimist always run to blow it out?
|
|
|
12 Mar 2015, 20:04
|
#99
|
Propaganda Chief
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Under the Rainbow
Posts: 4,740
|
Re: Round 61 BB stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by [B5]Londo
Mz didnt say that they were: he said if you want a good set dont start from R51.
Ofc I did not play R51 so cannot comment.
Your presumption that Mz said your stats were worse than R51 sums up your whole attitude to this thread. You seem to feel you are under siege, desperate to defend your stats against all possible criticism, real or imagined, and consequently are not taking on board helpful comments. (such as there are)
|
Well i started working on the R51 stats cus they were beautyful the round they were played.
You can read the stats above on the round i wrote up.
Thats the reason for me picking them, though i felt they was overly defensive to begin with, so i tried balance that out as good as i could to make them seem more dynamic
__________________
RainbowS
RB Ely MISTU Angel Fusi0n 1up ToF VisioN CT FAnG ROCK
|
|
|
12 Mar 2015, 21:03
|
#100
|
mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
|
Re: Round 61 BB stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by [B5]Londo
Ofc I did not play R51 so cannot comment.
|
To put my criticism of the r51 stats in perspective: I was the author that round (modified them from the r30 stats, made by JBG), so it's not like I'm carrying some kind of deep-seeded grudge.
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
|
|
|
|
All times are GMT +1. The time now is 00:48.
| |