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Unread 3 Nov 2009, 08:48   #1
budious
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UK Data Protection Act of 1998 and the PA EULA

I would like to advise all Planetarion users that usage of personally identifiable information pertaining to signup and EULA acceptance is potentially violating the UK Data Protection Act of 1998.

If you feel that your personal identification should not be in the possession of Planetarion administrators or desire anonymity, request an administrator to blank or insert a null character into the First Name, Last Name, City, State or Country fields.

Join #dpa98 to show your support and interest in anonymity and personal data protection rights.

Links excluded due to forum limitation. Content of this post can be found at pastebin.ca/1654415 including links to relevant UK government sources.

Take notice that only Fubra is registered in the data controller database with a partial listing of websites under their control listed. There is no record of Renegade or Planetarion as currently registered data controllers in the UK.

Sorry about the links, view pastebin.ca/1654415 for relevant links to UK government websites.

I could discuss each of these further but if you're genuinely interested then you should read each of the links posted at your own discretion.

-----
Nov. 4, 2009 10:31 GMT - Changed language from "currently being conducted illegally in accordance to" to "potentially violating" in first sentence of this statement to be fair to Renegade and Planetarion while they assess the situation and determine whether it is.
Nov. 6, 2009 08:27 GMT - Changed language from "collection of all" to "usage of" in the first sentence to more clearly indicate the nature of this complaint.

Last edited by budious; 6 Nov 2009 at 09:28. Reason: Change of language in first sentence.
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Unread 3 Nov 2009, 09:09   #2
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Re: UK Data Protection Act of 1998 and the PA EULA

You seem bored....
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Unread 3 Nov 2009, 09:17   #3
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Re: UK Data Protection Act of 1998 and the PA EULA

Quote:
The Data Protection Act gives individuals the right to know what information is held about them. It provides a framework to ensure that personal information is handled properly.
Quote:
How do I know if my problem is a data protection problem?
You might have a data protection problem if any of the following apply to you:

You have been denied any of your rights, including your right to see the personal information an organisation holds about you.
Personal information about you is used, held or disclosed:
unfairly
for a reason that is not the one it was collected for, or
without proper security.
Personal information about you is:
inadequate, irrelevant or excessive
inaccurate or out of date, or
kept for longer than is necessary.
Now, I may not be a legal expert, but from what I can find from this Act, it's got very little to do with all that stuff you just sprouted.

Basically it just says that those who collect and use personal information have to follow rules of good practice for handling information, in addition to giving anyone the right to know what data is stored by them (and frankly, there's no shockers there).

So, before we go any further, why don't you start by showing me a link where it does say that collection of all personally identifiable information pertaining to signup and EULA acceptance is currently being conducted illegally.

Aside from all that, what have you got to hide anyway? Privacy is a naive illusion that's only mildly pleasant.
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Unread 3 Nov 2009, 09:20   #4
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Re: UK Data Protection Act of 1998 and the PA EULA

This is in fact very interesting. While Remy might not care about his civil rights, I certainly do. I am very interested in Pete's response to this issue.

As for the actions we could take to rectify this situation, perhaps it would be more productive for the player base to collectively ask for a solution, to ensure the entire problem is resolved. This likely works better than doing so individually, which will probably leave some (a lot) of the illegal data right where it is, as well as remove one of our big advantages: numbers.
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Unread 3 Nov 2009, 09:21   #5
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Re: UK Data Protection Act of 1998 and the PA EULA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Machado View Post
Now, I may not be a legal expert, but from what I can find from this Act, it's got very little to do with all that stuff you just sprouted.
I only took a cursory glance at the links posted by Budious, but at the very least Renegade Games is not registered in the data protection public register, which according to this is a criminal offense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Machado View Post
Aside from all that, what have you got to hide anyway? Privacy is a naive illusion that's only mildly pleasant.
Personally, I have plenty to hide.
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Unread 3 Nov 2009, 11:05   #6
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Re: UK Data Protection Act of 1998 and the PA EULA

ah lads, ffs, get over it!
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Unread 3 Nov 2009, 11:27   #7
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Re: UK Data Protection Act of 1998 and the PA EULA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
I only took a cursory glance at the links posted by Budious, but at the very least Renegade Games is not registered in the data protection public register, which according to this is a criminal offense.
I'm not sure if this is inspired off my post on the multihunters discussion thread. It's correct though, most likely collecting the kind of a database that is being collected by the sign up information (and it is an accessible database with technically undescribed access, considering how the multihunters are elected into their position) and used by the multihunters is illegal.

I discussed this with Appocomaster at the time when a multihunter had implied to me that cross-refering my personal information with a federal US database and the Planetarion player database would be a possible way to approach this. The argument is that the database is solely used to double check credit card information, but there's no signaling of this argument on the EULA, so essentially users aren't even agreeing to it - and this forfeits the possibility of free players wanting to keep their identity out of it. Appoco obviously had nothing to do with it, and the person I contacted from the owner at that time, (s?)he was some community representative, had no interest in pursuing the subject, even if I recall asking the person where I'd have to direct a law suit to.

A reminder, though. There is nothing that obligates you into signing up your real personal information on the sign up screen - collecting them is as mentioned most likely illegal, and not discussing them in EULA doesn't really make sense. Now, you can write "Yogi Bear" on your name and a multihunter will eventually come and be an egocentric dick about it, have a power trip on you over NCIC access, and yell random shit, but you should just tell them that they can talk to the ass because the face doesn't give a ****. I never gave my personal details to them again after I found out this stuff, and they didn't delete me for it either.

ps. In case anyone's interested, I have mIRC logfiles of a discussion with a multihunter regarding the database collection and using it to cross-refer with outside sources (such as NCIC).
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Unread 3 Nov 2009, 12:46   #8
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Re: UK Data Protection Act of 1998 and the PA EULA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
I'm not sure if this is inspired off my post on the multihunters discussion thread.
It wasn't (though it was an interesting post nonetheless). My posts in this thread were not limited to the excesses of multihunter behaviour, but were concerned with privacy concerns in general.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
A reminder, though. There is nothing that obligates you into signing up your real personal information on the sign up screen - collecting them is as mentioned most likely illegal, and not discussing them in EULA doesn't really make sense. Now, you can write "Yogi Bear" on your name and a multihunter will eventually come and be an egocentric dick about it, have a power trip on you over NCIC access, and yell random shit, but you should just tell them that they can talk to the ass because the face doesn't give a ****. I never gave my personal details to them again after I found out this stuff, and they didn't delete me for it either.
Not entirely true. The multihunters are always able (and often willing) to close you for invalid account details. This round or last round (I forget), someone I know had a discussion with a MH precisely on this subject and in the end was faced with the choice between new account details or getting closed. Naturally, he decided to give a new set of account details (which of course were just as fake as the ones he'd initially supplied).
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Unread 3 Nov 2009, 14:21   #9
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Re: UK Data Protection Act of 1998 and the PA EULA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
It wasn't (though it was an interesting post nonetheless). My posts in this thread were not limited to the excesses of multihunter behaviour, but were concerned with privacy concerns in general.
Yeah, I was speaking of the original poster. Databasing personal information including explicit identities of people is a touchy subject.

Quote:
Not entirely true. The multihunters are always able (and often willing) to close you for invalid account details. This round or last round (I forget), someone I know had a discussion with a MH precisely on this subject and in the end was faced with the choice between new account details or getting closed. Naturally, he decided to give a new set of account details (which of course were just as fake as the ones he'd initially supplied).
Yeah, the crux is, they cannot verify these account details in any fashion: all they can actually do is compare them to details of credit card users paying for accounts (and refer to the case of holding an illegal population database in this situation). The multihunters closing you for invalid account details is a bullshit lottery: this is what I used as an argument on my case. And this is the point where I was lead to believe that the multihunting team would, if necessary, be able to verify my details' actuality through a United States federal database (obviously not intended or disclosed for cross-referencing with an illegal population database to begin with). Write Yogi Bear, and tell them it's your name. If they close you, write Yogi Bear again, and tell them it's your name.

Multihunters are generally eager to close people for miscellanelous reasons (someone's a "known scum", or a "lith bastard", or gives "apparently false account details", and so forth), but also equally inclined not to close different people for different reasons ("good bloke", "famous community figure", "influential and respected alliance leader"). It's the same line on the account detail ship, and the most atrocious part of submitting these personal details is that a random internet figure will have complete access to your privacy details and hell, you might even not know that.

But Ace knows where you live.

The only thing they gain from closing you is strokes in their personal egos, which is what the multihunting is a lot about - e-stroking e-peens. In my case, I told the multihunter in question that I would refuse to give my actual identity in to be submitted to an illegal population database. The multihunter in question actually came up with a makeshift name for me. These both incidents just elaborate the problems involved in collecting population databases in these situations.

The easiest way to solve the problem would be to just EULA it and obtain the necessary permissions to do so.
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Unread 3 Nov 2009, 17:58   #10
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Re: UK Data Protection Act of 1998 and the PA EULA

budious, unless you're willing to quote any of those websites and actually make a structured argument to support your case rather than just throw an accusation around, I'm not interested.

I could come on the forums and say that you're breaking the law by using too many vowels, and refer you to the UK Vowel and Consenant Act of 1972 and provide links to articles on literature, but that wouldn't be proving my point.

If you want to convince people, you need to do it yourself rather than just say "They're in the wrong, read that - the answer is bound to be in there somewhere".

I think you're also forgetting that Planetarion is a service provided to you by fubra. In order to use their services, you require a license. In order to obtain a liscence, you need to sign an agreement. In this agreement, you agree to give accurate information in return for the use of fubra's services. You 'signed' that agreement when you created your planet (remember the tickbox?).

If you'd given your real name, and they didn't believe you, then sure - I'd argue til I was blue in the face too. In fact, Spritfire almost didn't believe my name was Kenny Halfpenny, and I almost got closed a few rounds back. But you didn't use your real name, you thought you'd be funny and it backfired. And now because you're being called on it, you're creating a fuss.

Just because somebody can't prove you wrong, doesn't make you right. And arguing like this, and creating such a fiasco over, is not the way to go about making a point.

You're in the wrong, deal with it, and shut the hell up.
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Unread 3 Nov 2009, 18:35   #11
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Re: UK Data Protection Act of 1998 and the PA EULA

Until someone gets a lawyer involved (or you are a lawyer) this whole discussion is really meaningless.

If someone does get a lawyer involved and it leads to PA getting shut down.... I hate you.
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Unread 3 Nov 2009, 19:02   #12
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Re: UK Data Protection Act of 1998 and the PA EULA

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Originally Posted by Monroe View Post
Until someone gets a lawyer involved (or you are a lawyer) this whole discussion is really meaningless.

If someone does get a lawyer involved and it leads to PA getting shut down.... I hate you.
No, the actual purpose of the discussion probably is that someone should sort out these kinds of things. The unarguably blatant lapse in EULA/sign up information is that it doesn't really discuss the reason why the information is collected or request a permission from the user to database it. These are trivial things you don't want to get caught up with.
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Unread 3 Nov 2009, 19:40   #13
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Re: UK Data Protection Act of 1998 and the PA EULA

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Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
No, the actual purpose of the discussion probably is that someone should sort out these kinds of things. The unarguably blatant lapse in EULA/sign up information is that it doesn't really discuss the reason why the information is collected or request a permission from the user to database it. These are trivial things you don't want to get caught up with.
Well for one I doubt it is blatant (as in someone said, "hey don't put that info in there, someone might object"), but even if it is... if you don't like the rules don't play. Really I see this entire discussion as trivial, the PA Team can't force you to give correct information at the end of the day, all they can require you to do is provide information that appears creditable. Just provide information that isn't obviously a forgery and they will leave you alone, end of discussion.
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Unread 3 Nov 2009, 19:43   #14
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Re: UK Data Protection Act of 1998 and the PA EULA

I've always been curious why PA wants to know my name and the city I live in, I don't really want to be giving these details out, nor do I want PATeam being able to see my password (unhashed) which I hear is the case!

I'm not going to start threatening to sue PA or any such nonsense, though it is annoying and weird, and I do feel slightly robbed of my privacy.
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Unread 3 Nov 2009, 20:10   #15
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Re: UK Data Protection Act of 1998 and the PA EULA

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I've always been curious why PA wants to know my name and the city I live in, I don't really want to be giving these details out, nor do I want PATeam being able to see my password (unhashed) which I hear is the case!
Being able to see passwords in an non-crypted format sounds odd indeed.

The apparent reason I was giving for collecting information on player identities into a database was that they compare those to the credit card details of payers to verify such (in case you remember the good old lithuanian mess back in round 5, which may be the cause and origin of this). Whether this is the real reason or not, or whether this applies to free planets too or not, I can't really confirm.
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Unread 3 Nov 2009, 22:42   #16
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Re: UK Data Protection Act of 1998 and the PA EULA

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Originally Posted by ellonweb View Post
I've always been curious why PA wants to know my name and the city I live in, I don't really want to be giving these details out, nor do I want PATeam being able to see my password (unhashed) which I hear is the case!

I'm not going to start threatening to sue PA or any such nonsense, though it is annoying and weird, and I do feel slightly robbed of my privacy.
Afaik, unhashed passwords were the case before, but got changed quite alot rounds back. Still questionable that they used unhashed passwords first anyway.
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Unread 3 Nov 2009, 23:09   #17
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Re: UK Data Protection Act of 1998 and the PA EULA

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Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
The apparent reason I was giving for collecting information on player identities into a database was that they compare those to the credit card details of payers to verify such (in case you remember the good old lithuanian mess back in round 5, which may be the cause and origin of this). Whether this is the real reason or not, or whether this applies to free planets too or not, I can't really confirm.
I can totally understand wanting to have some kind of payer confirmation details, but surely when an external source like PayPal is being used (I believe this is the case, correct if wrong) PA shouldn't have to worry about it. I've never paid for a credit, why should PA need to know where I live and what my name is?

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Originally Posted by SteInMetz View Post
Afaik, unhashed passwords were the case before, but got changed quite alot rounds back. Still questionable that they used unhashed passwords first anyway.
To the best of my knowledge this was still the case in r32.
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Unread 3 Nov 2009, 23:34   #18
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Re: UK Data Protection Act of 1998 and the PA EULA

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Originally Posted by Monroe View Post
Well for one I doubt it is blatant (as in someone said, "hey don't put that info in there, someone might object"), but even if it is... if you don't like the rules don't play. Really I see this entire discussion as trivial, the PA Team can't force you to give correct information at the end of the day, all they can require you to do is provide information that appears creditable. Just provide information that isn't obviously a forgery and they will leave you alone, end of discussion.
I should not be forced to break the rules in order to maintain my privacy.
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Unread 4 Nov 2009, 01:24   #19
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Re: UK Data Protection Act of 1998 and the PA EULA

Well, I haven't bothered to read up on all this DPA and EULA stuff cause frankly I don't care enough. Fact is though, people are offering advice such as 'lie better' to avoid the scenario in the first place. As far as I'm concerned if you can avoid entering valid details by placing realistic - but equally false - information in the name/address fields there's really no point of requiring the data anyway.

Absolutely farcical to be quite honest.
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Unread 4 Nov 2009, 06:35   #20
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Re: UK Data Protection Act of 1998 and the PA EULA

The first paragraph of the letter I sent Pete.

Quote:
I would like to discuss my concerns with the Planetarion EULA as it pertains to requiring users to disclose personally identifiable information and how that information is stored, accessed, and utilized by your staff in addition to concerns of distribution to third parties. The EULA should include clear and definitive language regarding information to be disclosed; why this information is necessary requirement; how confidentiality will be maintained; who will be able to access it and what they can do with it, and finally an acknowledgment of your responsibility to adhere to the UK Data Protection Act of 1998. While these statements may be included exclusively in the EULA, it also recommended to adapt a Privacy Policy for your website to pertain to any optional information disclosed during account registration which may not required by the EULA. Any personal identification you are currently storing for Planetarion users is most likely illegal and all data stored in the personal identification table, or fields pertinent to First Name, Last Name, City, State or Country for all user records should be deleted until such time as your are able to fully comply with the Data Protection Act of 1998.
My concerns specifically regarding data handling by Planetarion and Renegade Games:

Confidentiality:
  • Is the database stored on an encrypted volume?
  • Why does the signup form asking for confidential information not use HTTP over SSL?
  • Who has access to my confidential information, are all persons accessing the information working from within the physical location of the authorized data controller, does this person access the information remotely, are any remote connections secured by VPN or HTTP over SSL or IRC over SSL?
  • When my information is supplied, what behavior by staff members to verify my true identity are undertaken, I did not give consent to have my name entered into a search engine and for you to view my myspace or facebook profiles.
  • Do you sell my information to third parties?
  • Netgamers does not support SSL connections so any conversations between #multihunters and consumers of this service are asked to transmit personal identification in clear text across the Internet, again.
  • Company policy for information classification and accessibility. Do volunteers or employees of Renegade Games/Planetarion sign any formal document that acknowledges a personal compliance to company policy?
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Unread 4 Nov 2009, 12:03   #21
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Re: UK Data Protection Act of 1998 and the PA EULA

The passwords in the user database are stored encrypted since quite a few rounds (i know, i was MH at the time).

I believe it has been like that for at least 6-8 rounds.

The reason why it was changed from clear text to encrypted was exactly the discussion that no-one would have any reason to see some-ones password, not even the staff of Planetarion.
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Unread 4 Nov 2009, 12:45   #22
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Re: UK Data Protection Act of 1998 and the PA EULA

FRED SMITH OF 33 SMITH STREET SMITHSHIRE, SMITHLAND

Who needs personal details, when you can just make your own up
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Unread 4 Nov 2009, 12:46   #23
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Re: UK Data Protection Act of 1998 and the PA EULA

Encrypted is not the same as hashed, encrypted passwords can be decrypted and viewed.
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Unread 4 Nov 2009, 14:40   #24
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Re: UK Data Protection Act of 1998 and the PA EULA

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Originally Posted by ellonweb View Post
Encrypted is not the same as hashed, encrypted passwords can be decrypted and viewed.
The passwords cannot be decrypted (afaik), and Cin's made them pretty securely encrypted with all sorts of complicated algorithms.

We have never sold ANY information on. I think that even those ticking the box allowing us to contact them have had 3 e-mails in about 4 years, about a new round signup.

All backend server access is done via ssh.

I don't know about the system architecture for Fubra (or, indeed, OMAC/Jolt, when we were kicked off their servers - we did request that they correctly erase all hard disks as we hadn't finished doing that).
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Unread 6 Nov 2009, 10:46   #25
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Re: UK Data Protection Act of 1998 and the PA EULA

I'd just like to clear a few things up and update people on what I think about this.

What everyone needs to realise is that neither Renegade Games, Fubra Limited, or Planetarion is doing ANYTHING illegal. I have checked with the Information Commissioners Office and we are doing absolutely nothing that would require us to register with them, and we are also not using data for any abusive purposes therefore there is nothing illegal about anything we do.

The only angle I see valid points in in the EULA, after consideration I think that it is not specific enough about what we use the data for, so I will update it soon so that it is much more specific.

What everyone should understand is that Renegade Games is providing a service to you, for which we specify conditions. Conditions that we think are reasonable, and ones which are completely legal. If you do not want to comply with them, or you do not want to disclose information, just don't play. It's that easy.

While I really want to have happy customers, we need that data as it increases the effectiveness of finding cheaters. It's that simple.

We ask for name and location. This is not exactly massively personal data. If you are not willing to pay the "price" of providing this data to play my game, well then I am not willing to let you play.

I would also like to warn anyone in the future about throwing laws at me and trying to blackmail me into doing things like reopening their account. I am not one to give into threats, I will fight you head on, and you should make damn sure you have a good case or I might ban you from Planetarion permanently.
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Unread 6 Nov 2009, 11:20   #26
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Re: UK Data Protection Act of 1998 and the PA EULA

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Originally Posted by zPeti View Post
I would also like to warn anyone in the future about throwing laws at me and trying to blackmail me into doing things like reopening their account. I am not one to give into threats, I will fight you head on, and you should make damn sure you have a good case or I might ban you from Planetarion permanently.
This was hardly blackmail, I think there was well documented transcripts of discussions that I shared with you via email correspondence regarding the behavior of multihunters staff. Now they may not know what they are doing is a misuse of the information but you should certainly take the implications of possible misuse seriously and advise a new policy which would handle the information more confidentially and with integrity.

Blackmail also suggest there was an ultimatum, I only notified you of the problem as a courtesy as it is the suggested course of action by the IOC, if you read their documents they clearly insist that I work with you before filing a complaint. If you want to ignore my concerns and I feel there is sufficient grounds for an IOC complaint then I will file one. The IOC can decide the matter and if they tell me there is nothing wrong here then I will gladly apologize and close the post.

I asked you to reopen my account because it was the right thing to do. I voiced my concerns about the why and how I thought the information was being misused and why if I had supplied my real information, that I would feel like my privacy had been breached. I provided you with transcripts of IRC communications to support my positions.

I certainly did not mean to anger you personally, I just expressed my dismay about the carelessness of your methods and/or lack thereof of any company policy or procedure that would actually warrant you having this information at your disposal in the first place.

I was very defiant about revealing my information to any of your staff because of 1) Lack of statement of use in the EULA 2) Lack of a Privacy Policy and 3) Access restrictions.

While you may be very much entitled to possess and view my signup information Pete, I am not so convinced that it is pertinent information to be shared with unpaid Internet support volunteers. If you were to adopt a Privacy Policy and EULA acceptance that ensured me you had a secure validation method (not web searches) to check every player's identity for consistency and limited access to this information on a need to know basis such as official employees of Renegade Games to enforce a one time identity check at signup in your offices then I would be happy to comply. Sharing this information with pseudo-anonymous volunteers to run web searches with is not acceptable in my opinion.
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Unread 6 Nov 2009, 11:28   #27
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Re: UK Data Protection Act of 1998 and the PA EULA

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Originally Posted by budious View Post
This was hardly blackmail, I think there was well documented transcripts of discussions that I shared with you via email correspondence regarding the behavior of multihunters staff. Now they may not know what they are doing is a misuse of the information but you should certainly take the implications of possible misuse seriously and advise a new policy which would handle the information more confidentially and with integrity.

Blackmail also suggest there was an ultimatum, I only notified you of the problem as a courtesy as it is the suggested course of action by the IOC, if you read their documents they clearly insist that I work with you before filing a complaint. If you want to ignore my concerns and I feel there is sufficient grounds for an IOC complaint then I will file one. The IOC can decide the matter and if they tell me there is nothing wrong here then I will gladly apologize and close the post.

I asked you to reopen my account because it was the right thing to do. I voiced my concerns about the why and how I thought the information was being misused and why if I had supplied my real information, that I would feel like my privacy had been breached. I provided you with transcripts of IRC communications to support my positions.

I certainly did not mean to anger you personally, I just expressed my dismay about the carelessness of your methods and/or lack thereof of any company policy or procedure that would actually warrant you having this information at your disposal in the first place.

I was very defiant about revealing my information to any of your staff because of 1) Lack of statement of use in the EULA 2) Lack of a Privacy Policy and 3) Access restrictions.

While you may be very much entitled to possess and view my signup information Pete, I am not so convinced that it is pertinent information to be shared with unpaid Internet support volunteers. If you were to adopt a Privacy Policy and EULA acceptance that ensured me you had a secure validation method (not web searches) to check every player's identity for consistency and limited access to this information on a need to know basis such as official employees of Renegade Games to enforce a one time identity check at signup in your offices then I would be happy to comply. Sharing this information with pseudo-anonymous volunteers to run web searches with is not acceptable in my opinion.
What exactly are these volunteers going to do with your private information (name and location) that makes you so concerned?
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Unread 6 Nov 2009, 12:00   #28
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Re: UK Data Protection Act of 1998 and the PA EULA

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T
I asked you to reopen my account
Ladies and Gentlemen the true motive
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Unread 6 Nov 2009, 12:06   #29
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Re: UK Data Protection Act of 1998 and the PA EULA

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Originally Posted by zPeti View Post
What exactly are these volunteers going to do with your private information (name and location) that makes you so concerned?
You are missing the whole point. Being responsible with other people's personal information, even if it is severely limited in scope such as Name and Location, still requires you to be proactive in protecting it and not reactive. Also there is no reason for them to be actively processing the information at random intervals, you should be verifying it as soon as it comes through or not at all.

If closing a planet on grounds of "false signup info" at a strategic time near the end of round could be considered favoritism then your also allowing another avenue of rigging the game. Not to say I know any actively dishonest staff with intentions but you are giving them the ability to rig the game on weak authority. Do remember all your volunteers did come from the playing community and by the nature of their interaction, conduct casual online conversations daily, and who really knows what kind of personal friendship networks exist that may lead to favoritism or bias? So why do you want to consider this extra fallacy in the mix. It's a strong second argument to doing signup verification at time of account creation only, and either accepting or rejecting it then.
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Unread 6 Nov 2009, 12:24   #30
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Re: UK Data Protection Act of 1998 and the PA EULA

This is just a glorified grudge post.
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Unread 6 Nov 2009, 13:42   #31
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Re: UK Data Protection Act of 1998 and the PA EULA

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Originally Posted by budious View Post
You are missing the whole point.

(...)

If closing a planet on grounds of "false signup info" at a strategic time near the end of round could be considered favoritism then your also allowing another avenue of rigging the game.

(...)

It's a strong second argument to doing signup verification at time of account creation only, and either accepting or rejecting it then.
If this is the point, why didn't you just say this right at the start? Because this has quite little to do with the original post, apart from being connected only via the whole person data collection yada yada stuff. I think the point that you're missing is that your first post was shot down and now you're going at it from another angle, and one that is slightly ridiculous at that.

I mean, sure, it sucks that you can be closed for something that happened at the start of the round at the end, but the whole compromised objectivity thing? Puh-lease. Its like that with everything, and sign up data is just a tiny fraction of that. Yet you're complaining about this and not the rest? If someone gets closed for any reason you can bring that up, but in the end, if you wanna play you should just follow the rules. Nobody's forcing you to play, so if you don't like your rights and duties then don't play.

If that means timing can be unfortunate then so be it, you are still the one who entered false data, and nobody else is at fault but you.
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Unread 6 Nov 2009, 14:45   #32
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Re: UK Data Protection Act of 1998 and the PA EULA

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Originally Posted by zPeti View Post
The only angle I see valid points in in the EULA, after consideration I think that it is not specific enough about what we use the data for, so I will update it soon so that it is much more specific.
Indeed. You'd probably get far simply by informing the user that you are collecting the data to build up a database from, and discussing the purpose of this database. This is all fairly trivial, and why it's not been done, is a good question. In fact, stating that the EULA isn't specific enough to describe what you use the data for is slightly underestimating, considering the only reference to data you collect is

"or if we are unable to verify or authenticate any information you provide to us, or violate this agreement."

further discussed in "(f) False signup information will result in immediate closure."

which in the end is a really, really vague statement considering the difficulties related in verifying data. If a multihunter "verifies" my personal information as false, under what judgement does it happen? I'll be happy to discuss this verification process with you in person on IRC, not because I'd be in a particular hunt to burn witches, but because there might be specifics about this process you're not aware of that you might not be comfortable with.

The next piece discussing personal information is

"13. We cannot ensure that your private communications and other personally identifiable information will not be disclosed to third parties."

Personally identifiable information?

Quote:
We ask for name and location. This is not exactly massively personal data. If you are not willing to pay the "price" of providing this data to play my game, well then I am not willing to let you play.
It used to prompt for address too (or is my memory failing on me?), but this is probably ancient history. Whether old information is still being stored in a database or not (seeing as at least some form of old information is stored in order to send emails mentioned earlier on this thread) I don't know.

Quote:
If closing a planet on grounds of "false signup info" at a strategic time near the end of round could be considered favoritism then your also allowing another avenue of rigging the game
The problem is that, whether you insert correct information or not, there is no way to verify this - as I've personally experienced. So at that point, it simply becomes a one-side descision of the service provider (here, the multihunting team in specifics) to judge whether someone's personal details are "correct" or not. The logic does apply to both directions though: you don't see any harm done by people writing down their real (questionable, since there's no legal way to verify this) names, people don't see any benefit done by doing so. Besides avoiding being closed by multihunters for alledgedly false sign up information. But then again, the EULA essentially ensures that the administrators are allowed to close planets on evidence no other than essentially subjective judgement, so that's something people do agree to.
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Unread 6 Nov 2009, 17:26   #33
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Re: UK Data Protection Act of 1998 and the PA EULA

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Originally Posted by [DW]Entropy View Post
This is just a glorified grudge post.
I couldn't agree any more strongly if I put effort in.
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Unread 6 Nov 2009, 18:38   #34
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Re: UK Data Protection Act of 1998 and the PA EULA

Closed planet in 'I'm being mistreated'-shocker.



(although zPeti, I'd really get a skilled lawyer to look at this and advise you. This stuff is like a stretch of land filled with landmines, and laws on this actually do exist and have to be abided - even though it will in reality only mean you'd have to change the EULA.)
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Unread 7 Nov 2009, 01:07   #35
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Re: UK Data Protection Act of 1998 and the PA EULA

The only thing that has been made clear from this thread is that the current PA owner could really use a class in public relations.

Agreeing with earlier posters that this is in reality; "give what info you want or **** off; we're not forcing you to play our game"

The EULA is not legally re-assuring, but oh well. I've never given info about myself that is not already avaliable online for those who know how to look.
Oh, and then there is the part that I've retired and wont sign up again unless I decide to **** over the little social life I have finally gained again
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Unread 7 Nov 2009, 09:01   #36
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Re: UK Data Protection Act of 1998 and the PA EULA

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This is just a glorified grudge post.
correct give that man a cookie !
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Unread 7 Nov 2009, 09:02   #37
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Re: UK Data Protection Act of 1998 and the PA EULA

Afaik there are only a few possible ways to go down in applying the DPA 98 on a company like this. Its all about making sure private data stays private, if the multihunters then shared this private information with intentions not set out then there would be a problem. But they arent so it isnt.

Edit: Not that I have any authority on the matter, I read a different type of law.
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