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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 06:45   #151
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome
out of genuine curiosity, is this actually meant to be "hear hear" or "here here", i've seen both posted on various forums and i demand clarification!
You utter bastard. I was hoping that someone would either correct me or agree with me because I have actually no idea myself. I'm sure the spelling doesn't matter that much as the sentiment still gets through. Thanks for being no use whatsoever
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 08:06   #152
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by aNgRyDuCk
that's because the person running the MH clearly has no backbone and caved. The MH team has no responsability to warn anyone of anything, eula says so, they see you acting in a manner that they determine to be "support" they can close you, end of story. they need to have some stones for a change.
A scan is not a direct attack/defense that immediatly effects another planet, therefore a scan planet IS NOT "support" as defined in the eula.....a covert operation IS an attack that has immediate and direct effect on the target planet... much the same as your planets existance being solely to provide viper fleets IS. Thus it IS a support planet if it is NOT IN YOUR TAG and provides immediate tactical benefit for YOUR ALLIANCE. Don't even try and tell me a solo planet with no alliance affiliation had ACCESS to such a complete set of coords without alliance assistance. No way those people should have been re-opened. They whined to the MH team leader and got their way. That is EXACTLY why the MH team will always be a joke, until they have some leadership with a set of balls they will be nothing more than a joke.
sadly, thats precisely the impression that has been given out by them.
multihunters need authority to do their job, when they have none - they cant work effectively.
right now, they are a bit of a joke

"if you want reopened, whine long enough and loud enough with enough people to make it happen. to hell with *rules*"

as duck has said, the eula permits them to define things any way they want to - defining covert op planets whos sole purpose is to cov op exilitions enemies repeatedly , outside of the exilition tag as a support planet is a perfectly fair interpretation.
caving like they have done is little more then cowardise, and sets an extremely poor example. "anything to avoid a confrontation"
Whats next, admins recalling fleets of people just because they are wave #9 on a triple booked galaxy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
You could, K-W, try forget that it's evil eXilition and planetarion paragon 1up for a while. Try treat it as two cases where similar looking evidence of the so called support planet rule was interpreted very differently, leading into very a verdict and whatnot.
you cant directly compare two cases unless they are more alike then you think.
have 1up used out of tag covert op planets to specifically target certain alliances in the past?
no
Furthermore you forget that the bulk of this new mh team is composed of completely different people. There are a heck of a lot of new people this round in it.
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 08:14   #153
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
Whats next, admins recalling fleets of people just because they are wave #9 on a triple booked galaxy?
They'd have the full right to do that according to the support planet rule
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 08:41   #154
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Re: Double Standards

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Originally Posted by Phil^
sadly, thats precisely the impression that has been given out by them.
multihunters need authority to do their job, when they have none - they cant work effectively.
right now, they are a bit of a joke

"if you want reopened, whine long enough and loud enough with enough people to make it happen. to hell with *rules*"

as duck has said, the eula permits them to define things any way they want to - defining covert op planets whos sole purpose is to cov op exilitions enemies repeatedly , outside of the exilition tag as a support planet is a perfectly fair interpretation.
caving like they have done is little more then cowardise, and sets an extremely poor example. "anything to avoid a confrontation"
Whats next, admins recalling fleets of people just because they are wave #9 on a triple booked galaxy?


you cant directly compare two cases unless they are more alike then you think.
have 1up used out of tag covert op planets to specifically target certain alliances in the past?
no
Furthermore you forget that the bulk of this new mh team is composed of completely different people. There are a heck of a lot of new people this round in it.


I actually agree with you here AngryDuck, I wish the multihunters had some backbone, there are alot of very suspicious planets out there but it seems like the multihunters requires an extremly high amount of proof to actually do something. I have made a list over the proof that is probably needed to get closed an account.

1: live camfeed from the room where the alleged cheater is sitting, actually catching the criminal acts of suspicious planetbehaviour.
2: a written testamony from 7 eye witnesses clearly stating that the person cheated
3: a uiji board and a haitian witchmasters clairvoyant vision
4: proof via scans, etc is not admissable (scans doesnt say anything about the planet cheating, only that the planet is doing something suspicious)
5: Is this planet a regular player, if so, would PA lose money from closing him. (if yes, dont close)
6: Does the player in question have some reknown amongst the community that would create an ad post with negative comments? (if yes, dont close)


And the list goes on and on..

I loved the fact how I had to battle with the multihunters a couple of rounds ago to get planets from TGV closed as I saw proof time and time again about that they were clearly cheating, but the multihunters protected them time and time again..
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Last edited by Kargool; 24 Jul 2006 at 08:47.
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 08:51   #155
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
I actually agree with you here AngryDuck, I wish the multihunters had some backbone
some of them do, unfortunately i dont think the manager has enough for the job.
Dont get me wrong, hes a great guy irl and is talented for sure , but he lacks the willpower to run the multihunters.
Get enough people whining loud enough and you will eventually get your way - it would seem.

Imo the job should be passed over to someone else who can manage it, and appoco should do game development where he works best.

as for the evidence requirements. i dont think they are *too* high, but some types of evidence are inadmissible purely because they can be faked.
thats why they rely on evidence they can gather themselves, ingame.
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 09:17   #156
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by K-W
In that example it doesnt sound like youd have anything to worry about. Youd need to be specifically working with an alliance and be hitting thier enemies.

Good you hit the nail on the head.
Where is the proof these planets are working for a alliance ?
I bet that's what some ppl would like you all to believe but I haven't seen or heard ANY proof of that.

This whole thing is getting rediculous, Like I said in alliance rep channel "If these guys (who ever they are) where in a tag nothing would be done, but since they are not they get closed for being support planets. A great way for a new allianceless player to get known with PA"
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 09:20   #157
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Re: Double Standards

Well, they can just make their own tag, and sit and cov-op whomever they want according to what I have understood from this discussion.
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 09:24   #158
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Re: Double Standards

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Originally Posted by Kargool
Well, they can just make their own tag, and sit and cov-op whomever they want according to what I have understood from this discussion.

Bingo bright idea #2

Now *if* these planets where working for a alliance would that alliance be soooo stupid NOT to see that too ?
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 09:25   #159
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Re: Double Standards

tbh the only bright idea ive seen in this thread was lokkens
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 09:26   #160
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
tbh the only bright idea ive seen in this thread was lokkens
Not the point here, the point is 'stop pointing fingers till you got proof"
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 09:29   #161
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace
Not the point here, the point is 'stop pointing fingers till you got proof"
nope. its not the point - however lokkens idea was a fairly good one. - dont you agree?
( it was http://pirate.planetarion.com/showpo...&postcount=119 )
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 09:33   #162
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Re: Double Standards

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Originally Posted by Phil^
nope. its not the point - however lokkens idea was a fairly good one. - dont you agree?

as for the proof, its entirely subjective to your own point of view
you could argue that they are hitting a specific alliance purely through coincidence and that there are no ties at all to exil, alternatively you can say they are being directed by exil to specific targets and that there are close knit ties only short of them actually controlling the logins for them too.
like i said, its entirely subjective to your own point of view.

No it's not.
Our point of view has nothing to do with it, there are rules to follow and the rules are not all that clear on some points.
The proof is needed to make a founded judgement.
hear say get's you nowhere.
And it's not up to us to decide what happened as we donm't have the insight
the MH has/had to get to his/her judgement.

So unless you know more then we do I suggest pointing fingers is not the way to go.
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 09:39   #163
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace
No it's not.
Our point of view has nothing to do with it, there are rules to follow and the rules are not all that clear on some points.
ours dont, no but the hunters' do.
it also relates to why i dont think appoco is suited for the job - his opinion is entirely malleable.
get enough people whining and he will change it simply to avoid the confrontation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace
The proof is needed to make a founded judgement.
the proof is quite simple - they either did or they didnt.
the covert ops exist, there are ingame logs to prove it - the mh need to decide how they interpret their own eula.
either they plug the rather blatant loopholes which are exposed in it, every time that certain alliances play ( given they bend the rules as far as they go each time ) - or they dont plug it and turn a blind eye to abuse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace
So unless you know more then we do I suggest pointing fingers is not the way to go.
all i know is that certain planets, outside of exils tag were intentionally targetting 1up planets and possibly other alliances as well which are hostile to exilition.
i also know that these planets were in some cases upgraded by exilition members going on what ive heard. - therefore its reasonable to conclude they have ties to exilition in one way or another. You dont after all upgrade random people unless you know them from somewhere.
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 09:44   #164
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
ours dont, no but the hunters' do.
it also relates to why i dont think appoco is suited for the job - his opinion is entirely malleable.
get enough people whining and he will change it simply to avoid the confrontation.
the proof is quite simple - they either did or they didnt.
the covert ops exist, there are ingame logs to prove it - the mh need to decide how they interpret their own eula.
either they plug the rather blatant loopholes which are exposed in it, every time that certain alliances play ( given they bend the rules as far as they go each time ) - or they dont plug it and turn a blind eye to abuse.
all i know is that certain planets, outside of exils tag were intentionally targetting 1up planets and possibly other alliances as well which are hostile to exilition.
i also know that these planets were in some cases upgraded by exilition members going on what ive heard. - therefore its reasonable to conclude they have ties to exilition in one way or another.
Phil^ unless you got proof stop pointing fingers at exil.
And a second remark on your post, appocco is one of the few PA team members I have a lot of respect for and without all the hard work he does for PA atm i doubt there would be a PA atm.
I find your remarks very anti 1 alliance and I don't think this is a very openminded way of looking at things.
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 09:48   #165
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace
Phil^ unless you got proof stop pointing fingers at exil.
And a second remark on your post, appocco is one of the few PA team members I have a lot of respect for and without all the hard work he does for PA atm i doubt there would be a PA atm.
I find your remarks very anti 1 alliance and I don't think this is a very openminded way of looking at things.
im pointing fingers at them simply because they were the ones complaining loudest when they got closed, and because they are the ones who directly benefitted from their actions. Its hardly unreasonable to conclude that they had a vested interest in them
surely even you can agree with that?

second, i also have respect for appoco, i just dont think he is a suitable head of MH for the reasons i have said in previous posts.
He's perfect at game development - always has been, and while in the support team he always worked fine. Hell he was offered a pateam position by me, deputy support manager - but turned it down as he didnt want to leave his alliance at the time.
You can call me anti-one alliance, or biased or whatever you like. i dont care - the likes of maxmillan and robban1 do it on a regular basis, its like water off a ducks back now; but it doesnt change the fact that they benefitted, and will continue to do so from the actions of the covert op planets.
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 09:53   #166
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Re: Double Standards

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Originally Posted by Phil^
im pointing fingers at them simply because they were the ones complaining loudest when they got closed, and because they are the ones who directly benefitted from their actions. Its hardly unreasonable to conclude that they had a vested interest in them
surely even you can agree with that?

second, i also have respect for appoco, i just dont think he is a suitable head of MH for the reasons i have said in previous posts.
He's perfect at game development - always has been, and while in the support team he always worked fine. Hell he was offered a pateam position by me, deputy support manager - but turned it down as he didnt want to leave his alliance at the time.
You can call me anti-one alliance, or biased or whatever you like. i dont care - the likes of maxmillan and robban1 do it on a regular basis, its like water off a ducks back now; but it doesnt change the fact that they benefitted, and will continue to do so from the actions of the covert op planets.
Sure they benefited from it but so did all the other alliances in the top 5.
But since cov opping is part of the game (not liked by me btw) we have to life with it.

And since i don't know who the cov oppers are I'm not pointing fingers since i still go by the rule innocent till proven quilty
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 09:58   #167
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Re: Double Standards

and i go by the ethos " where theres smoke, theres fire "
sure it is perfectly possible that its just one giant series of coincidences, but i find it extremely unlikely that is the case, personally.

theres quite a lot of aspects about the game nowadays i dont like, covert opping perhaps less so, but certainly things like xp.
Yes, we have to live with it, but it doesnt mean we have to like it - or to refrain from complaining when theres something we think is wrong going on.

random thought - the world cup was rather fun, perhaps pateam should consider running a round of it sometime?
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 10:00   #168
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Re: Double Standards

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Originally Posted by Phil^
and i go by the ethos " where theres smoke, theres fire "
Does that go with all the "suiciding planets" on elviz aswell?
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 10:02   #169
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Re: Double Standards

now this, I get a red blob for my postings with this remark:

being out of a tag is no guarantee. remember dlr?

Next time plz sign with your name so i can reply.
wtf has DLR to do with this ? and if they did then it's even wors since they DIDN'T get closed.
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 10:02   #170
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Does that go with all the "suiciding planets" on elviz aswell?
yes ive heard about that too. From what ive been able to tell it looked like a set up. one person suicided his fleet there, and then had it reported in an effort to get him closed.

unsurprisingly the mh also screwed up there , they removed the ships elviz was able to steal but forgot to replace the damages the suiciders fleet did, or any roids stolen. not to mention the xp gained.
if their intention was to do a mini-rollback for that combat then they did a piss poor job of it.
the reasoning the hunters had for doing a mini roll back in the first place - i have no idea.
they havent commented on it at all publically
Evidently they didnt think elviz was cheating or they would have closed him though.
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 10:06   #171
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
yes ive heard about those too. From what ive been able to tell it looked like a set up. one person suicided his fleet there, and then had it reported in an effort to get him closed.

unsurprisingly the mh also screwed up there , they removed the ships elviz was able to steal but forgot to replace the damages the suiciders fleet did, or any roids stolen. not to mention the xp gained.
if their intention was to do a mini-rollback for that combat then they did a piss poor job of it

I saw the newscan myself, and well, I dont think 400 spiders steal any roids..

But you prove my point, the 1up brigade claims most usually that whenever there is something happening to a 1up guy, it is obviously a set up, if it happens with someone outside 1up, its a cheater..
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 10:11   #172
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
I saw the newscan myself, and well, I dont think 400 spiders steal any roids..

But you prove my point, the 1up brigade claims most usually that whenever there is something happening to a 1up guy, it is obviously a set up, if it happens with someone outside 1up, its a cheater..
from what ive heard there were two waves without pods, and one with.
as for your conspiracy theory - its laughable that you think so.
continue posting with that as your justification for everything. im sure it will provide me with some amusement.
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 10:13   #173
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
from what ive heard there were two waves without pods, and one with.
as for your conspiracy theory - its laughable that you think so.
continue posting with that as your justification for everything. im sure it will provide me with some amusement.
Belive me, im pretty amused by all this allready. Infact your conspiracy theory about a setup on Elviz made me laugh.
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 10:16   #174
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Belive me, im pretty amused by all this allready. Infact your conspiracy theory about a setup on Elviz made me laugh.
Im just reiterating what ive heard. neither of us have access to all the data so all either of us can go on is what we've heard.
you , ofc being as flagrantly anti-1up as you always have been will assume the worst and selectively pick truths which fit together for your desired effect
I , being 1up will believe what im told by those i trust until i see proof otherwise.
and, to reiterate. The mh clearly dont think he was cheating as if he was - he would be CLOSED right now.
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 10:22   #175
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
Im just reiterating what ive heard. neither of us have access to all the data so all either of us can go on is what we've heard.
you , ofc being as flagrantly anti-1up as you always have been will assume the worst and selectively pick truths which fit together for your desired effect
I , being 1up will believe what im told by those i trust until i see proof otherwise.
and, to reiterate. The mh clearly dont think he was cheating as if he was - he would be CLOSED right now.
I agree, you see things the 1up way, and I probably see things the "anti" 1up way. However you claiming that i am making conspiracy theories out of thin air when you claim that the attack on elviz was a set up... Isnt that a conspiracy theory aswell?

He did get his ships removed, I think that clearly constitutes that the MH's was beliving he was cheating, but afraid of what might have happend if they had closed him.
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 10:30   #176
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
I agree, you see things the 1up way, and I probably see things the "anti" 1up way. However you claiming that i am making conspiracy theories out of thin air when you claim that the attack on elviz was a set up... Isnt that a conspiracy theory aswell?
He didn't claim it. He told you it's what he had heard and then agreed that without the evidence that the MHs have no firm judgement could be made either way. At least have the decency to read his posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
He did get his ships removed, I think that clearly constitutes that the MH's was beliving he was cheating, but afraid of what might have happend if they had closed him.
Clearly you'll let your mouth say anything, no matter how stupid or unfounded, if it might portray 1up in a poor light. Alternatively you just out and out called rain a cheat too.
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 10:30   #177
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
I agree, you see things the 1up way, and I probably see things the "anti" 1up way. However you claiming that i am making conspiracy theories out of thin air when you claim that the attack on elviz was a set up... Isnt that a conspiracy theory aswell?

He did get his ships removed, I think that clearly constitutes that the MH's was beliving he was cheating, but afraid of what might have happend if they had closed him.
you're reading too much into things, saying you see things from the opposite viewpoint that i do is not in itself a conspiracy theory
neither is me reiterating what ive been told, and will believe until shown evidence otherwise

as for elviz, yup the ships were removed - a move which baffles me like i said earlier.
its makes no sense to me - as established procedure dictates : Investigate. If guilty close, else leave alone
there isnt any reason to deviate from that, but things ive heard privately from appoco suggest its being done along a similar line to what was done with rain when people were suiciding on him.
i also have a direct quote of appoco ( from #planetarion.ops so a2/mushroom is likely to grumble at me since its a nonquote chan ) , saying that there are no grounds for closing elviz.
ergo he didnt cheat, as if he did then he would be closed.

*why* its being done along that line i dunno since if i recall squishy was recalling suicide fleets on him and not closing purely because there was not enough time left in the game for the appeal process to complete. Clearly there is plenty of time left in this round.
thats a question best left to appoco to explain why he did what he did i guess
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 10:40   #178
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by mazzelaar
Given that you actually quoted Sid agreeing with that statement then I'm not entirely sure what point you're proving here.
Well as far as I'm aware you're not actually sid and I think it's technically possible for you to have a difference of opinion with him on this issue so given that was I talking to you I decided that assumption was unwise and decided to go for clarification.

However given that it appears we're in agreement over what occurred do you think a consistent application of the rules in this scenario should have led to some punishment against 1up for this violation of the rules?


Personally to respond to my own point yes, I think a consistent application of the rules should have led to the entire of 1up, shitty members intag, normal members intag, normal members out of tag, being closed, this is due to the fact that the alliance itself broke the rules. But look at what we've had to do to reasonably apply the rules. It's an insane over-reaction. This is due to the fact that the rule itself is fundamentally bullshit. Why? Because pateam took a game that was built for individuals and turned it into a team game. It's not a teamgame. Teams don't compete directly with each other. Groups are fluid and change rapidly. This is essential to the nature of the game because the groups are not isolated. It is a case of a huge number of individual elements inside a number of overlapping sets. And the attempt is to isolate the sets. This won't work, it can't work, the elements won't be isolated because the nature of the game precludes it. The nature of the game is competition on a number of levels, the individual level - your planet, the forced group level - the galaxy, the chosen group level - the alliance. You can't separate them.

Round 10 and the hardcoding of alliances, more specifically the idea of effectively removing the constant choice variance in the alliance field of play and replacing it with a more structured and less fluid dynamic, such as we see in galaxies, was an incorrect move. What they could have done is created a new group level, the alliance as an expression to be exact, "the alliance as tag" so to speak. However what was attempted was "the alliance is the tag". But it's not, so the contradictions rise up every round. And every round new rules are constructed to try and make alliances conform to the idea that they are just the tags. But they're not, are they? They're chosen groups. And every choice every single planet in the universe makes affects everyone else. The idea of an actual limit on chosen group size is madness. As I mentioned earlier in this thread all you'd have to do is create a new tag and use that tag to aid the first group. It's nonsense.
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 10:41   #179
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by mazzelaar



Clearly you'll let your mouth say anything, no matter how stupid or unfounded, if it might portray 1up in a poor light. Alternatively you just out and out called rain a cheat too.
Mazzelaar, if insults is the only way you can try to make a point, then stop trying to make a point at all..
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 10:43   #180
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Mazzelaar, if insults is the only way you can try to make a point, then stop trying making a point at all..
as insults go, thats a fairly poor one. so poor infact i dont even think it could be called an insult.
its simple observation - nothing more.

spend time on gd ( but for the love of god dont post or they'll crucify you ) and you'll see far better examples
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 10:44   #181
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Re: Double Standards

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Originally Posted by Kargool
Mazzelaar, if insults is the only way you can try to make a point, then stop trying to make a point at all..
If unbased accusations and simple idiocy is the only way you can try to make a point, then stop trying to make a point at all..
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 10:47   #182
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by mazzelaar
If unbased accusations and simple idiocy is the only way you can try to make a point, then stop trying to make a point at all..
I am quite sure you can get your fustrations and male testosterones out of your system somewhere else than insulting people on an internet forum.
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 10:53   #183
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Well as far as I'm aware you're not actually sid and I think it's technically possible for you to have a difference of opinion with him on this issue so given that was I talking to you I decided that assumption was unwise and decided to go for clarification.
I'm sure you understand that Sid is the voice of 1up. Anything he says with regard to 1up can be taken as written, irrsepective of conflicting opinions. I do appreciate you acknowledging my input though

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
However given that it appears we're in agreement over what occurred do you think a consistent application of the rules in this scenario should have led to some punishment against 1up for this violation of the rules?
If the point hadn't been clarified beforehand by several people and with my conversations with PA team then yes, I agree. But it had so I don't


Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
This is due to the fact that the rule itself is fundamentally bullshit. Why? Because pateam took a game that was built for individuals and turned it into a team game. It's not a teamgame. Teams don't compete directly with each other. Groups are fluid and change rapidly. This is essential to the nature of the game because the groups are not isolated. It is a case of a huge number of individual elements inside a number of overlapping sets. And the attempt is to isolate the sets. This won't work, it can't work, the elements won't be isolated because the nature of the game precludes it. The nature of the game is competition on a number of levels, the individual level - your planet, the forced group level - the galaxy, the chosen group level - the alliance. You can't separate them.

Round 10 and the hardcoding of alliances, more specifically the idea of effectively removing the constant choice variance in the alliance field of play and replacing it with a more structured and less fluid dynamic, such as we see in galaxies, was an incorrect move. What they could have done is created a new group level, the alliance as an expression to be exact, "the alliance as tag" so to speak. However what was attempted was "the alliance is the tag". But it's not, so the contradictions rise up every round. And every round new rules are constructed to try and make alliances conform to the idea that they are just the tags. But they're not, are they? They're chosen groups. And every choice every single planet in the universe makes affects everyone else. The idea of an actual limit on chosen group size is madness. As I mentioned earlier in this thread all you'd have to do is create a new tag and use that tag to aid the first group. It's nonsense.
I do, however, agree wholeheartedly here.
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 10:55   #184
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
I am quite sure you can get your fustrations and male testosterones out of your system somewhere else than insulting people on an internet forum.
It wasn't an insult, it was a point of view with regards to what you had to say. I assume, by virtue of the fact your crying about the nature of my posts rather than the content it debated, that you really don't have anything to substantiate your claim that "elviz was clearly cheating"?
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 11:00   #185
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by mazzelaar
If the point hadn't been clarified beforehand by several people and with my conversations with PA team then yes, I agree. But it had so I don't
Ah. Well, backtrack, rework the question. If you had been pateam and someone had come to you asking if they could go ahead with your proposed scenario would you, bearing mind in your first priority is to consistently and correctly apply the rules as stated in the EULA, have given the go-ahead?
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 11:01   #186
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Re: Double Standards

well the cath ships from the famous newsie on elviz are still there so i wonder wtf appaco are babbeling about and you mazzelaar try to be openminded on the issue or i take it you support cheating m8 do a own checkup on thing and act on it.

well you are better a throwing mud and take stuff offtopic than actually do something here
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 11:07   #187
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Ah. Well, backtrack, rework the question. If you had been pateam and someone had come to you asking if they could go ahead with your proposed scenario would you, bearing mind in your first priority is to consistently and correctly apply the rules as stated in the EULA, have given the go-ahead?
Now thats the right question. I wouldn't, no. But then I wouldn't allow scanners/covop planets out of tag either as I believe they are far more beneficial than 7 tiny planets that log in every couple of days to make sure they aren't deleted. However, it was checked out and we did stay within the confines of the PA team intepretation so we cannot be vilified in any way.

This rule has been a joke from day 1. I understand the intention behind it but no-one has ever had the time, nous, balls or consistency to apply it correctly.

As Sid said, PA sucks. We're just here for the people we play with.
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 11:10   #188
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by robban1
well the cath ships from the famous newsie on elviz are still there so i wonder wtf appaco are babbeling about and you mazzelaar try to be openminded on the issue or i take it you support cheating m8 do a own checkup on thing and act on it.

well you are better a throwing mud and take stuff offtopic than actually do something here
I'm not entirely sure I understand what you're saying but I can 100% say I report cheaters whenever I see them. I have reported and had closed a 1up player in the past when I've seen them playing outside the rules.

I also never said, one way or the other, whether elviz was innocent or not. That is down to the MH team, not me. What I did say is that it was impossible for Kargool to substantiate his claim about elviz's conduct without being privvy to the same information the MH team have.

I'm fairly sure you've accused me of something in that post so I hope I've dispelled whatever belief it is your under.
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Originally Posted by JohnnyBGood
mazzelaar has always reminded me of a hungry hungry hippo. Except instead of eating marbles he just bites the heads off new AD posters
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 11:18   #189
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by mazzelaar
Now thats the right question. I wouldn't, no. But then I wouldn't allow scanners/covop planets out of tag either as I believe they are far more beneficial than 7 tiny planets that log in every couple of days to make sure they aren't deleted. However, it was checked out and we did stay within the confines of the PA team intepretation so we cannot be vilified in any way.
Of course you can be vilified dude. This is Planetarion. Give most of us five minutes time to think about it and we could vilify gandhi.

Now seeing as we're nearly through the argument can we refer back to earlier points and state that due to inconsistencies in applying the rules with reference to different alliances, in the "chosen group" sense of the word, we can state that some appear to be punished for their violation of the rules and others not punished for their different violation of the rules. So in fact we appear to be confronted with a case of double standards?

Quote:
This rule has been a joke from day 1. I understand the intention behind it but no-one has ever had the time, nous, balls or consistency to apply it correctly.
As I stated above I don't believe the rule can be applied correctly as it's based on a faulty premise.
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 11:28   #190
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Now seeing as we're nearly through the argument can we refer back to earlier points and state that due to inconsistencies in applying the rules with reference to different alliances, in the "chosen group" sense of the word, we can state that some appear to be punished for their violation of the rules and others not punished for their different violation of the rules. So in fact we appear to be confronted with a case of double standards?
The problem with the initial argument is that it was basing it on the actions of 1up in this round, in which case no, there are no double standards being as 1up are playing entirely within the rules however you want to apply them. Therefore the comparison Tomkat originally drew it a moot point. I agree that there have, historically, been inconistencies though but then 1up can hardly be blamed for that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
As I stated above I don't believe the rule can be applied correctly as it's based on a faulty premise.
I'm almost sure I agreed with you there
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 11:34   #191
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Re: Double Standards

if i didnt have so much good memory's off this game this would be funny to watch.
first off i want to point out that we all should know that PAteam is not planning on killing the game, they want to make it fun but dont have the resources to do it.
so please dont make it personal!

secondly i think that PAteam and the role jolt (biffy) plays in PAteam should change realy soon or we can say goodbye to PA and go do something else.
this is because imo appocomaster is running 90% of it, and thats a job that noone can do.

phil and i admin for a other game and we have been watching the downfall of the multihunter effort.
(its like watching a old friend die)
ofc we talked to the head MH and had some insight in the numbers (% looked at and closures) and it went down and down
again, not because the multihunters dont want to do a good job, they are totaly unmotivated.

when assassin quit and squishy didnt want to take over as head mh assassin asked me to step in on temp basis.
i said yes and was planning on getting the best MH up to speed for the head position and leaving again
(bare in mind that head mh took me more then a year to learn and the current MH are there a bit shorter)
when i left (got kicked out) it was because i objected with the direction PA was going (and it seems i might have been right)
but to save the game i told then i would limit myself to the MH part and not get involved in anything else!

PAteam (mostly biffy and appoc) said no against this and appoc took over yet a other position!

all the great names in PAteam have left more or less because of there job not being fun anymore

imagine PAteam with phil a2 spinner karmulian and all the others i am no doubt forgetting


now for my point

atm we have a head MH who is not cutting it
rules should be clear and if inforced it should be inforced equal!
also hunting should be blind (no alliance names just numbers)

i know some of the better admins out there want to save this game to this is what i propose
1)PAteam should ask some of the big names back and learn from them
2)Jolt should give a free hand to PAteam and give a year budget so that we can have some adds and actualy grow!
3)we need a public designgroup (20 players from all layers of the game to help with the game design)
4) phil should be asked back as head MH and give full freedom to clean it up
5)PA should be FUN again!!!
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 11:36   #192
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by mazzelaar
The problem with the initial argument is that it was basing it on the actions of 1up in this round, in which case no, there are no double standards being as 1up are playing entirely within the rules however you want to apply them. Therefore the comparison Tomkat originally drew it a moot point. I agree that there have, historically, been inconistencies though but then 1up can hardly be blamed for that.
I didn't make that argument. My argument concerns r16. Nor did I say you should be blamed for it. I don't believe in some bizzare form of constructed PA morality. All I'm saying is that the rules were inconsistently applied and 1up were favoured by this inconsistency.

Quote:
I'm almost sure I agreed with you there
Yeah but as my dear mum says making a good argument is 5% inspiration and 95% reiteration.



Edit: I can't believe someone just claimed karmulian was a great name in PA history.
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 11:39   #193
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Re: Double Standards

i was asked to return to mh for this round, but i turned it down as i didnt want to leave 1up.
in light of all thats happened i really do wonder if that was the correct decision.

I believe a few other old-time pateam were asked as well, but im not certain on that.
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 11:42   #194
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Re: Double Standards

[quote=mazzelaar]I also never said, one way or the other, whether elviz was innocent or not. That is down to the MH team, not me. What I did say is that it was impossible for Kargool to substantiate his claim about elviz's conduct without being privvy to the same information the MH team have.
QUOTE]

well the mh dont do shit unless it flies into their faces, hell some mh dont even have full access to the tools cos of security issues and that is wtf really,

kinda depressing. i dont care if ppl tries to cheat or does it but then the ppl who should keep stuff clean, pokes their noses and not even investigate reported stuff, i get somewhat pissed
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 11:42   #195
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I didn't make that argument. My argument concerns r16. Nor did I say you should be blamed for it. I don't believe in some bizzare form of constructed PA morality. All I'm saying is that the rules were inconsistently applied and 1up were favoured by this inconsistency.
Did anyone else ask if they were able to do what we did? If not then you can only say that not thinking of it is a shortcoming on thier part. If they did and they were given a different answer to 1up then yes, 1up were favoured. All we care about is that we were playing within the rules at a given time. It is inconsistent, yes, but favouring 1up, I don't thats is something that can be quantifiable unless the same rule was applied differntly to two alliances doing the same thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnybGood
Yeah but as my dear mum says making a good argument is 5% inspiration and 95% reiteration.
What about the 34% sheer bloody mindedness and 24% inability to listen?
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 11:44   #196
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by robban1
well the mh dont do shit unless it flies into their faces, hell some mh dont even have full access to the tools cos of security issues and that is wtf really,

kinda depressing. i dont care if ppl tries to cheat or does it but then the ppl who should keep stuff clean, pokes their noses and not even investigate reported stuff, i get somewhat pissed
Again, I'm not sure if you're having a dig at me or not but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and add that the current application of rules and the role of the MH team will, no doubt, play a large part in PAs final demise.
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 11:46   #197
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Re: Double Standards

I can’t believe Xontas is even mentioning applying rules consistently, given that all I hear off him constantly is the term "admins discretion".
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 11:47   #198
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by mazzelaar
Did anyone else ask if they were able to do what we did? If not then you can only say that not thinking of it is a shortcoming on thier part.
True but not really relevant to my point.

Quote:
If they did and they were given a different answer to 1up then yes, 1up were favoured. All we care about is that we were playing within the rules at a given time. It is inconsistent, yes, but favouring 1up, I don't thats is something that can be quantifiable unless the same rule was applied differntly to two alliances doing the same thing.
Of course it favoured 1up, that's the whole point of the "inconsistency". If it inconsistent it clearly implies that some form of action is allowed and some is forbidden when they both fall under the same rule. I'm not saying it's biased in your favour or anything, I'm just saying it favoured you.

Quote:
What about the 34% sheer bloody mindedness and 24% inability to listen?
158% performance is a thing of the past. We're looking for 167% performance. Stop contextualising within your own paradigm and revolutionise your methodology
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 11:50   #199
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Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by Game^
I can’t believe Xontas is even mentioning applying rules consistently, given that all I hear off him constantly is the term "admins discretion".
lol game, this is not the place for this, but i will say this
even admins discretion should be equal
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 11:53   #200
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Re: Double Standards

The main difference however JBG is that 1up's extra idle members had an indirect on game mechanics, due to the fact it influenced a factor outside of them, i.e. politics, no-one targeted them because they were small. It never actually influenced anyone in the game, they didn’t attack anyone, or defend anyone, they just altered people's perception of 1up that round.

However these covert op planets have a direct effect, in the same way defence planets do. They are there to interact with specific planets, in one form or another.

So in all honesty its not a like for like comparison at all.
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