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Unread 22 May 2013, 01:22   #1
Influence
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Powerabuse by a former HC

The situation:
Kargool, a former leader of TGV and now MH, decided TGV's kicking of members in the last days of the round was a front to the TGV name and to retake control over all of TGV's assets, including our tagname and all alliance IRC channels. He aggressively approached us in our public channel, and when the current HC's (Rexdrax, Clouds and myself) explained why we did what we did(some of us in an equally agressive manner), to which Kargool responded by taking away our access from our public channel.

Kargool still had lvl498 access to our public channel as he was one of the ppl that re-founded TGV in r41, and with him joining MH Team he had to leave the alliance in the hands of others. There never was a reason to strip his access away, so it remained there until PT1177 of this round. Being faced with having our access stripped we set out trying to find out if there was any action Rexdrax and myself (as alliance reps) could take to restore our access to #tgv. We found out that there was a procedure in place that protected alliance assets, and made sure it allways remained in the hands of _CURRENT_ HC's. Rexdrax then triggered that procedure and restored access for all current HC's, and decreased Kargools level to ensure he couldn't redo the damage he did earlier. No other access levels to any channels were altered.

To ensure we remained in control over our alliance nick we changed the access to it to review the current situation and standing procedure, and changed the secret question.

As of 21:00 GMT last night we found all our access to TGV channels and the alliance nick taken away again. Neither Rexdrax or myself have been informed of this decision by anyone in cservice, or any of the related teams that are in place to protect reserved alliance names and nicks. All this while standing procedure dictates that all alliance assets are owned by _CURRENT_ HC's through their alliance representatives. And that in the event of an issue all parties involved would be heard.

Another great example of failure at the top of the chain.
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Last edited by Influence; 22 May 2013 at 11:40.
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Unread 22 May 2013, 01:52   #2
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Re: Powerabuse by a MH and the PATeam

iam sorry to see this happen.

so iam quessing he left the MH team to retake the controll of TGV then.

anyway this should not happen alest not with out all parties involved should be heard.
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Unread 22 May 2013, 02:41   #3
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Re: Powerabuse by a MH and the PATeam

Hehe kargools fun i bet its a joke :-P
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Unread 22 May 2013, 03:13   #4
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Re: Powerabuse by a MH and the PATeam

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg View Post
Hehe kargools fun i bet its a joke :-P
you find it funny Greg ?

think about it, one day you wakeup now and find that B-B has full controll of ur allaince channel´s, i dont think you would think have tought that was fun.

abuse of access.

TGV i hope you get it all fixed.
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Unread 22 May 2013, 04:00   #5
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Re: Powerabuse by a MH and the PATeam

I think you left out the bit where my access was removed from the TGV nick & tag, in direct contradiction to the agreement that allowed you & RexDrax to TEMPORARILY run the alliance in my absence the past 2 rounds.

Something that was done without anyone having the courtesy to contact me about.
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Unread 22 May 2013, 04:42   #6
Influence
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Re: Powerabuse by a MH and the PATeam

Quote:
Originally Posted by notsure View Post
I think you left out the bit where my access was removed from the TGV nick & tag, in direct contradiction to the agreement that allowed you & RexDrax to TEMPORARILY run the alliance in my absence the past 2 rounds.

Something that was done without anyone having the courtesy to contact me about.
http://forum.netgamers.org/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=5350 <-- that clearly states the alliancenick is property of the alliance, represented by their current hc's and representatives. You were no longer an alliance representative as you were no longer playing, and the alliance representative rules state you have to be playing and be a hc in the alliance you are representing.

By the time this happened you had not logged into P for 61 days. There was no way for myself to contact you. I know Rexdrax does have you in his facebook, but while this happened we were more concerned with the continuation of our alliance and to repair our access to our public channel.

As far as i was aware the agreement was that either you or kargool could reclaim the tag in order to PLAY either Planetarion or another game at any time. That is not what happened, Kargool just claimed we would never play(planetarion) under the TGV tag again.

Also i must add, someone in Cservice (MarkB) did try to contact Rexdrax (marked away, and idle for over 100 hours) through pm before we found our access taken away, unfortunately Rexdrax did not return home before any action was taken (and in fact only got online to find the mess after clouds texted him to get online).
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Last edited by Influence; 22 May 2013 at 12:08.
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Unread 22 May 2013, 07:21   #7
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Re: Powerabuse by a MH and the PATeam

Quote:
Originally Posted by aif View Post
you find it funny Greg ?

think about it, one day you wakeup now and find that B-B has full controll of ur allaince channel´s, i dont think you would think have tought that was fun.

abuse of access.

TGV i hope you get it all fixed.
How do i manage to get mentioned all the time when ive not done anything to try to achieve it
Clearly i think that all alliances is a trademark of those who founded it in the first place, and if this person dont want the name to be used this should be respected.
Id be suprised if someone came around using some other old allies name, and then demanding access for their channels.
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Unread 22 May 2013, 09:49   #8
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Re: Powerabuse by a MH and the PATeam

Very wierd. I mean from the link Influence posted i can see no reason why the current HC's access would be removed. Really as this is off round MarkB should have waited to get a reply from RexDrax or asked in TGV for a HC or for someone to contact a HC so discussions should progress, not to have made a decision in his abscence.

Regardless of what agreements who had with who, neither Kargool or notsure are TGV representives ingame or on iRC. I have played in TGV for the 3 rounds since RexDrax brought it back properly and apart from seeing notsure as a dead planet ingame for round 1 neither of these people have had any influence or contact on TGV for those 3 rounds so really they hold no right to anything in TGv as they happily handed all control over to Rex and Infy.

Wether it is the case of not the fact Kargool is currently a member of the MH team and therefore part of the PA Team this smacks of abuse of power to regain something he had no right to.

Now the 60 people who have played under the TGV tag for 3 rounds and consider themselves Vikings and also those players that played under Kargool before that are being told they must make a new tag completely to continue playing. Not really the 'Viking thing' to do.

I would hope that this decision is reversed and someone neutral (not Ace) reassesses the claims from both sides and makes a decision based on all the facts, i would say this person can only be Appocomaster.

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Unread 22 May 2013, 11:57   #9
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Re: Powerabuse by a MH and the PATeam

I wanted to add i was wrong in accusing PATeam, as apparently they have little to do with it (i can only guess i should wait for that to kick off when i try to get the alliance password on friday).

People other than Kargool involved were cservices (through MarkB) and Ace (acting as one of the 'admins' of the alliance representative team).
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Unread 22 May 2013, 19:47   #10
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Re: Powerabuse by a MH and the PATeam

Kargool/Notsure wants to show RexDrax/Influence/everyone else that they are in control, hence their sudden power trip last night.

If what they claim has any truth, that they haven't liked the way we have ran TGV the past few rounds, then they would've given RexDrax/Influence a timeframe in order for them to discuss about moving to a different/create a new tag. But instead, they decided to do a hostile takeover and harass the current TGV community.

When a couple of our members challenged the way they handled this, their access was instantly removed.

I understand their concerns, being founders/former leaders, but the way they went about it to take back control and bury the TGV name for good, I strongly disagree with and found it very aggressive.

We are now left in chaos, where members are under the impression that the community of TGV won't be playing as an alliance anymore, and as a result, most of us (I'd say 90%) have decided to leave the game altogether.

This dispute has been handled unprofessionally by the cservice team (primarily Markb), where they didn't even attempt to make communication with the current HCs of TGV about Kargool/Notsure's request to retake control.

In conclusion, Kargool/Notsure have ensured that the TGV alliance will be buried indefinitely and has resulted in the Planetarion community losing 40 players.
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Unread 22 May 2013, 20:06   #11
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Re: Powerabuse by a MH and the PATeam

Some accuracy but also some wrong info. I am not going to get into it since I still need some information and its working its way through several channels. Once its sorted and such I will post what has been happening since EORC till now as best as I can. For now I advise people to not comment/get involved till things are resolved.

Current state is that Kargool has "forbidden" us from using the TGV tag/name/allince to play for r52 and onwards. All channel access has been removed. Appeal process is in the works.

To all current and former Vikings, sorry that this is happening. I know some of you have already decided to leave the game, hopefully I can convince you to stay but I understand since I feel the same way, TGV or nothing.
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Unread 23 May 2013, 00:40   #12
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Re: Powerabuse by a MH and the PATeam

I for one think it is despicable to what Kargool has done. If you truly love your alliance, you would not force it's community into such a state of confusion and chaos.

I for one hope it all gets sorted promptly and justly, for the benefit of the greater good of the TGV membership.
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Unread 23 May 2013, 11:15   #13
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Re: Powerabuse by a former HC

To clear this up in my head (so please correct what is wrong), you cannot be a multihunter and a member/HC of an alliance yeah?

So by Kargool being a TGV representitive now (something which only a HC can be) does that mean he has to step down from the MH team? He currently has 498 access to the alliance channels of TGV (something again only an alliance representitive can have) so where does the rules stand on this? Does he have to give up TGV or give up MHing???
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Unread 23 May 2013, 11:42   #14
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Re: Powerabuse by a former HC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
He currently has 498 access to the alliance channels of TGV (something again only an alliance representitive can have)
Since when?
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Unread 23 May 2013, 11:44   #15
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Re: Powerabuse by a former HC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
To clear this up in my head (so please correct what is wrong), you cannot be a multihunter and a member/HC of an alliance yeah?

So by Kargool being a TGV representitive now (something which only a HC can be) does that mean he has to step down from the MH team? He currently has 498 access to the alliance channels of TGV (something again only an alliance representitive can have) so where does the rules stand on this? Does he have to give up TGV or give up MHing???
That only goes for active alliances. Obviously after kargools hostile takeover TGV is no longer an active alliance.

Personally tho, the way he interfered jeopardized the impartiality(heh lol) MH's are supposed to have, and 'admins' involved should have prevented him from being part of the 'vote' that removed Rexdrax from the authorized tag owner list.
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Unread 23 May 2013, 12:18   #16
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Re: Powerabuse by a former HC

It is quite impressive that the brown-nosing boy's club that makes up PA 'support' can effectively vote themselves in to take over any alliance they like.

On the flipside, it's just a tag.
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Unread 23 May 2013, 13:59   #17
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Re: Powerabuse by a former HC

Haha. Obviously he shouldnt be able to do this, but I can understand him. I wouldnt like someone abuse something I had founded and built.
Not saying someone has, but apparantly he thinks so.
Really doubt 40 people will leave pa over it though.
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Unread 23 May 2013, 14:36   #18
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Re: Powerabuse by a former HC

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Originally Posted by Wishmaster View Post
Haha. Obviously he shouldnt be able to do this, but I can understand him. I wouldnt like someone abuse something I had founded and built.
Not saying someone has, but apparantly he thinks so.
Really doubt 40 people will leave pa over it though.
Afaik he is one of the founder of TGV, and TGV was running on the blessing of the founders, obviously he didnt feel the way TGV was run the last round was unworthy of the TGV name, or in the hands of the wrong people.
If he is one of the founders it was in his rights to take it away from Clouds & CO imho.
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Unread 23 May 2013, 14:52   #19
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Re: Powerabuse by a former HC

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Afaik he is one of the founder of TGV, and TGV was running on the blessing of the founders, obviously he didnt feel the way TGV was run the last round was unworthy of the TGV name, or in the hands of the wrong people.
If he is one of the founders it was in his rights to take it away from Clouds & CO imho.
There is a lot more involved than just history and founding TGV. Yes he was the founder of TGV back in r2 so if you want to talk about history and such then I will also bring up the fact that I was HC of TGV r4 and for a few rounds after that and when PA changed and the small alliances started dying off I kept #tgv alive and active for a long time. At times I was the only one in the channel too. So yes I can call up on my own TGV history as well. Its not like Kargool wants to play the TGV tag, he wants to deprive Influence and myself of the tag and we are not some nobodies that have absolutely no connection or history with TGV. We do have an extensive history with TGV.
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Unread 23 May 2013, 15:39   #20
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Re: Powerabuse by a former HC

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There is a lot more involved than just history and founding TGV. Yes he was the founder of TGV back in r2 so if you want to talk about history and such then I will also bring up the fact that I was HC of TGV r4 and for a few rounds after that and when PA changed and the small alliances started dying off I kept #tgv alive and active for a long time. At times I was the only one in the channel too. So yes I can call up on my own TGV history as well. Its not like Kargool wants to play the TGV tag, he wants to deprive Influence and myself of the tag and we are not some nobodies that have absolutely no connection or history with TGV. We do have an extensive history with TGV.
I dont doubt that TGV was carried by more People than just Kargool, but in the end i think the founders should be the only one who should be allowed to take the final stand if a alliance/name is gonna carry on playing.
Im not arguing that Kargool did something wrong/right, or that the IRC ops followed the set rules of channels.
If Kargool feels that Clouds/Influence/who ever is apart of running TGV these days is running it against the ethics and morals that it once was founded on, you should respect this.
I dont know what he means has been done wrong, and on what terms he would want the alliance to keep running on, but after last round myself could see a lot of things he couldve reacted on.
If he is the founder of the name, he is in his right to rob you/influence/Clouds the chance to continue making new history to the name.
Just make a new name for you player group, where you can decide yourself what standards/morals this alliance is suppose to be built upon, and get on with your lifes.
Im actualy quite shocked that you decided to go public with this in the first place.
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Unread 23 May 2013, 15:39   #21
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Re: Powerabuse by a former HC

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Originally Posted by Wishmaster View Post
Haha. Obviously he shouldnt be able to do this, but I can understand him. I wouldnt like someone abuse something I had founded and built.
Not saying someone has, but apparantly he thinks so.
Really doubt 40 people will leave pa over it though.
What abuse? We havent abused the TGV tag as a matter of fact TGV has been steadily improving every round. We have very good defense and our attack capabilities are pretty good too.

He considers the fact that I kicked a few people before round end to ensure that Apprime doesnt hand us the win an abuse. He might be willing to accept a win handed to him by another alliance but I wasnt going to accept it. TGV will win the game via warfare and politics and not be possibly handed a win by another alliance. That is what he was ranting about during EORC and calling me names and such. I told him I would talk to him later when he cooled down but instead he took all of our access away.
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Unread 23 May 2013, 15:56   #22
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Re: Powerabuse by a former HC

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Originally Posted by Shev View Post
It is quite impressive that the brown-nosing boy's club that makes up PA 'support' can effectively vote themselves in to take over any alliance they like.
For the record PA support had nothing to do with this, leave us out of it.

As to the main point in this thread it is troubling if true. I will point out to the readers of this thread that you do only have one side of the story, and not knowing the other side it is tough to judge who is in the right here. I for one would hope that the folks who claim to love and support TGV would settle this on their own, in a way that benefits all of the current and former members and allows a great group of PA players to continue to play PA with honor and integrity.
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Unread 23 May 2013, 16:19   #23
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Re: Powerabuse by a former HC

I can change it to 'staff' if you prefer. Either way, no one outside knows what all your departments do.
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Unread 23 May 2013, 16:26   #24
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Re: Powerabuse by a former HC

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Originally Posted by Monroe View Post
For the record PA support had nothing to do with this, leave us out of it.

As to the main point in this thread it is troubling if true. I will point out to the readers of this thread that you do only have one side of the story, and not knowing the other side it is tough to judge who is in the right here. I for one would hope that the folks who claim to love and support TGV would settle this on their own, in a way that benefits all of the current and former members and allows a great group of PA players to continue to play PA with honor and integrity.
hehe
your right the full story is not being presented here and I wont be putting it up until the whole process is done. There are always 3 sides to the truth; his side, her side and the facts.

Unfortunately it will have to go to arbitration since kargool has repeatedly stated that he will not allow us to play under the TGV name. If he was wanting to start TGV up on his own I would most likely concede the tag and let him run with it. But his goal is to just deprive us of the tag and that i disagree with as well as his statement basically stating that he is TGV. Others/I have put a lot of work into TGV and have history just as he has and if his goal is just to deprive us of the tag then I do have an issue.

I think Influence corrected/edited his post to reflect the relevant information and that its not the PA team. But whether its PA team, MH or any other party that has some authority to PA in any respect or represents an aspect of PA in some form or shape, they all get clumped under the general umbrella of PA Team since not everyone is aware of who does what and what is what in PA.

My best advice is to just stay out of this thread. I have stated that there is some incorrect info or misinterpreted info that I will correct at a later time with what I know. Cant do that now since it would mean going through the whole story and I rather safe that until the end.
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Unread 23 May 2013, 16:32   #25
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Re: Powerabuse by a former HC

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
I dont doubt that TGV was carried by more People than just Kargool, but in the end i think the founders should be the only one who should be allowed to take the final stand if a alliance/name is gonna carry on playing.
Im not arguing that Kargool did something wrong/right, or that the IRC ops followed the set rules of channels.
If Kargool feels that Clouds/Influence/who ever is apart of running TGV these days is running it against the ethics and morals that it once was founded on, you should respect this.
I dont know what he means has been done wrong, and on what terms he would want the alliance to keep running on, but after last round myself could see a lot of things he couldve reacted on.
If he is the founder of the name, he is in his right to rob you/influence/Clouds the chance to continue making new history to the name.
Just make a new name for you player group, where you can decide yourself what standards/morals this alliance is suppose to be built upon, and get on with your lifes.
Im actualy quite shocked that you decided to go public with this in the first place.
I am sorry but I disagree that a founder has absolute and total control of the name. An alliance evolves over time and if a founder is not active in the alliance for several rounds/years and others have continued the name what your saying is that the same founder can come back and reclaim the name at any time and deprive everyone of it. This is not whats happening here, its much more than that.

As I stated before this isnt 2 groups of people wanting to play under a tag, its 1 group depriving the other of wanting to play under a tag. And its not like we are Dasoh/Yoshi hijacking a tag or anything. I never removed kargools access to any of the channels, I just increased Influences and my access so that he cant take over the channels again and take our access away. While kargool was a MH I never removed his access to any channels at all, hell I even asked him if he wanted to be added to the tgv internal channels so he can stay connected to the community and such but he declined stating that "it could be viewed as a conflict of interest" since he was a MH after all.
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Unread 23 May 2013, 16:50   #26
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Re: Powerabuse by a former HC

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Originally Posted by RexDrax View Post
I am sorry but I disagree that a founder has absolute and total control of the name. An alliance evolves over time and if a founder is not active in the alliance for several rounds/years and others have continued the name what your saying is that the same founder can come back and reclaim the name at any time and deprive everyone of it. This is not whats happening here, its much more than that.

As I stated before this isnt 2 groups of people wanting to play under a tag, its 1 group depriving the other of wanting to play under a tag. And its not like we are Dasoh/Yoshi hijacking a tag or anything. I never removed kargools access to any of the channels, I just increased Influences and my access so that he cant take over the channels again and take our access away. While kargool was a MH I never removed his access to any channels at all, hell I even asked him if he wanted to be added to the tgv internal channels so he can stay connected to the community and such but he declined stating that "it could be viewed as a conflict of interest" since he was a MH after all.
This is not the first time there has been a discussion about who got the rights to run alliance under an old name.
There is no right answer to this im sure, but im just displaying my opinon it.
If the founders dont agree with playing under the name, i dont understand why you would stirr up so much sh*t to be able to do so.
Just take your group some place else, call Your self Deprived Vikings or something of your own likings.
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Unread 23 May 2013, 18:44   #27
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Re: Powerabuse by a former HC

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Originally Posted by RexDrax View Post
What abuse?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishmaster
Not saying someone has, but apparantly he thinks so.

You guys are no doubt one of the better PA alliances playing these days, but I can also (from dealings with mainly Baddars last round) understand Kargools reluctance.
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Unread 23 May 2013, 19:04   #28
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Re: Powerabuse by a former HC

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Afaik he is one of the founder of TGV, and TGV was running on the blessing of the founders, obviously he didnt feel the way TGV was run the last round was unworthy of the TGV name, or in the hands of the wrong people.
If he is one of the founders it was in his rights to take it away from Clouds & CO imho.
Before throwing about random accusations, get your facts straight first. Kargool didn't revoke our access because he didn't like the way the tag has been run by the current TGV HCs, it was because he disagreed with a move we pulled at the end of this last round (r51), when we decided to kick a few members from the tag to ensure Apprime did not gift us the win.

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Unread 23 May 2013, 19:45   #29
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Re: Powerabuse by a former HC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clouds View Post
Before throwing about random accusations, get your facts straight first. Kargool didn't revoke our access because he didn't like the way the tag has been run by the current TGV HCs, it was because he disagreed with a move we pulled at the end of this last round (r51), when we decided to kick a few members from the tag to ensure Apprime did not gift us the win.
Thats what i said? He disagreed with how you run the tag, removing people would fall under this category
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Unread 23 May 2013, 19:50   #30
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Re: Powerabuse by a former HC

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
This is not the first time there has been a discussion about who got the rights to run alliance under an old name.
There is no right answer to this im sure, but im just displaying my opinon it.
If the founders dont agree with playing under the name, i dont understand why you would stirr up so much sh*t to be able to do so.
Just take your group some place else, call Your self Deprived Vikings or something of your own likings.
It's funny someone in this thread brought up the term 'Trademark' in this thread. Because with trademarks you have to actively defend it, and when you don't the trademark loses it's validity. So if you claim an alliance name is like a trademark, the claimed TGV name lost it's validity as none of the owners of that trademark have been involved in TGV over the past 3 rounds, and in fact had transferred the trademark partly to Rexdrax.

I am fighting it because i feel the community i quite literally gave my life for over the past 2.5 rounds is taken from the one thing that really binds it, it's name. If Rexdrax and i felt we wanted to run an alliance just for the sake of running an alliance we could indeed simply set something up completely unrelated to TGV, and it's community. But we don't want to run just any alliance, we want to run TGV in order to keep it's community alive. One of the best things in TGV is the mix of the old community core and the new community members. Since our access has been taken we quite literally lost our access to exactly that community.

The reason i made it public was that at the time i felt PA Team/CSC decided that systems that were put in place to ensure the continuity of PA-Alliances could be preserved were used to prevent exactly that. Prior to my posting this it was nearly impossible to reach the persons involved on the 'services' side of things, or even find out who it was and what it was we could do to prevent the hostile takeover. And while we had several insurances from leading figures within these services(not just CSC) that we were save things changed again and we lost our access completely.

I personally consider the battle for TGV lost and gave up hope that it will be fixed for us, but i sure as hell hope that my fight results in
  • A clear and publicly available procedure that everyone can consult and follow in case this happens (which i am fairly certain won't ever as this game will be dead in 3 rounds maximum, and this situation surely didn't help). Right now there are 3 procedures to ensure control over an alliance, and all 3 point to 'alliance reps' but who the alliance reps are can be completely different. And ever team involved points to the other team for anything.
  • A prodedure that requires that at least an attempt has been made to contact all parties involved in the dispute.
  • A system that favours the protection of active communities, and not former leaders. After all the active communities could not exist in any way if they didn't have access and control over the assets that are disputed here, and it is the former leaders that have to give that access.
  • A mentality among the PATeam that members among their team have to remain impartial at all times, and as a result can not ever be involved in such a struggle.
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Unread 23 May 2013, 20:08   #31
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Re: Powerabuse by a former HC

dunno what they did but either way cant you guys just make an alliance with the name "True Galactic Vikings" or smth ?
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Unread 23 May 2013, 20:19   #32
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Re: Powerabuse by a former HC

Indeed. "The Galactic Vikings" should surely still be available as a tag name? And I'm sure between you it'd be possible to register some new channels :-)

P.S. Kargool is a ****. *



*Does anyone else see the irony in a profanity to describe the "owner" of the vikings to be a series of Asterix's?
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Unread 23 May 2013, 20:23   #33
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Re: Powerabuse by a former HC

Wouldnt this be handled alot better if Kargool just stated that he does not support the actions done, nor the people running TGV, but wish the people he knows and the community as a whole good luck?

He would distance himself from it, he could even have asked them to change name.... But removing people, and ****ing up a community for an egotrip sounds very Angels to me!
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Unread 23 May 2013, 20:54   #34
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Re: Powerabuse by a former HC

As solo remaining HC from the early days, i can empathise with Kargool over the protection of the *good name* of the alliance.

To go off to play as a MH he has to not play as a member of an alliance and presumeably left the name in what he though were good hands who would uphold the values that were in place when the alliance was created.
To make such a bold move, i can only assume (i've not spoken with him) he feels actions taken are not in line with the values of the founders.

In this game the fundemental thing you trade on is the public opinion of the name and values of your alliance, if you care enough you will do everything in your power to protect that.

The subject of this thread is incorrect as i see it, Kargool is a Founder, not a former High Command.
This affects any battle for control quite substantially.
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Unread 23 May 2013, 21:03   #35
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Re: Powerabuse by a former HC

Ohh also..
1, In support of the PA team, this is not in thier remitence, ingame names is, irc channels are not, to hold them to account in this matter currently is entirely wrong.

and

2, I have never and will never believed that airing your dirty laundry in public will ever be a good thing and for the current HC to do so does more harm than good, in this case the old adage of any publicity is good publicity is incorrect.
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Unread 23 May 2013, 22:30   #36
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Re: Powerabuse by a former HC

As the founder/inventer/creator of TGV he should be able to decides its future.
I can understand that RexDrax/who ever put in an effort in TGV while Kargool was not there is feeling that he is taking all the credit for the TGV name, but in the end i think its Kargools alliance first and last.
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Unread 23 May 2013, 22:47   #37
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Re: Powerabuse by a former HC

I'm a little confused actually. Kargool had the P access to do the things he did, none of which broke the netgamers eula. So what business is that of cservice? If I use my 500/499/498 access to remove everyone from in my galchan, will cservice step in there too if some random 24 access peon doesn't like it?

Or are alliance channels somehow special?
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Unread 23 May 2013, 23:36   #38
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Re: Powerabuse by a former HC

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
I'm a little confused actually. Kargool had the P access to do the things he did, none of which broke the netgamers eula. So what business is that of cservice? If I use my 500/499/498 access to remove everyone from in my galchan, will cservice step in there too if some random 24 access peon doesn't like it?

Or are alliance channels somehow special?
Alliance channels can be registered under an alliance bot nick. This nick can then be accessed by a number of people who 'represent' the alliance in the eyes of Cservice. In this case this were Rexdrax and notsure. I was mistaken in the fact i was one of these ppl too, from my function as an alliance representative. However, CService procedure says this nick allways remains in control of the current alliance hc's so at first we gained access to it(rightfully according to their procedures).

At a later moment we lost our access and i wrote this message. At that time i was convinced the alliance nick registration was a service that PATeam had something to do with, obviously realising that CSC were the main point of contact. But considering we allready had gained access(and requested removal of notsure to prevent this hostile takeover) to it earlier (through CSC), i assumed that PATeam(Ace) had stepped in and reversed CSC decision. I based this assumption on the fact notsure told me CSC had to consult with Ace before she regained her access (and Rexdrax lost his). Therefor i 'blamed' PATeam, especially Kargool (a multihunter and therefor a representative of the PATeam, be it in a limited capacity) and Ace.

At the point i 'aired' this the issue had allready been going on for 10 days, and we had been assured (by making sure we had access to the tagname, and to the alliance bot) that the hostile takeover could not happen. Therefor Rexdrax and Clouds went on to prepare for r52 just like normal. If we had known the hostile takeover could happen anyhow we would have prepared to play with another tag and another infrastructure, and informed our members and our community of this change.
Rexdrax had given Kargool ample opportunity to talk to him when Kargool cooled down, to which Kargool didn't respond, notsure was inactive at the time (not logged in for 61 days, and her nick was prone to manual deletion), so there seemed to be no reason for us to further worry about the issue, considering we were assured we had all the access we needed. At no point in time was Rexdrax contacted that someone disputed his access to both the tagname and the alliance nick (apart from heated threats Kargool made when he removed our access from our public channel).
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Unread 24 May 2013, 20:25   #39
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Re: Powerabuse by a former HC

I care
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Unread 24 May 2013, 21:41   #40
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Re: Powerabuse by a former HC

Alright so I will try to clarify things as much as I can and with the information I have. At times I will be jumping all over the place since past events are being brought up by various people. As much as I would like to just stick to the facts I don’t think I will be able to so keep in mind that facts will be intermingled with opinions and such. I will try my best to separate the 2 but I am sure I will not succeed in every instance. This will be a fairly long post since there are quite a few things going on. I will have a section at the end if people are just interested in the final result/outcome as well as a section for all the other alliances that rely on the alliance registering system to protect their tag and channel since we are finding out quite a few things and some flaws and grey areas that need to be addressed by the powers that be.

It all started during EORC on May 10th, 2013. Kargool came online saw that TGV dropped from #2 to #3 rank. He asked what happened I explained a few things and also that we kicked some members for various reasons 1 being the fact that we did not want Apprime to hand us the win. It was not a guaranteed thing but something that was a strong possibility. At this point kargool proceeded to swear at me and call me names. I waited patiently and explained a few things but he continued. I eventually had enough and told him to calm down and talk to me in a few days. He continued and I stopped responding since it’s pointless and he was on a rant. At some point he basically said that he was TGV and will deprive us of the tag. He went ahead and removed all of our access to #tgv. I didn’t bother talking to him since he was on a rant and there is only so much swearing and abuse I will take.

Kargool and I kept missing each other on IRC due to RL and the fact we had a 7 hour time difference and let’s face it; it was the 1st weekend of no PA. I took some time off to relax and not be connected to the internet. I think I came back to being active on the 12 or 13, cant remember. The channels where still locked down and we needed to move forward. I checked into a few things regarding the tag and channels and was able to get access to the TGV bot who owned all the TGV channels. Using the bot I restored the HC access to the same level as kargool so he couldnt remove our access again and we proceeded to go forward. This was done by contacting #cservice and following the procedure outlined in http://forum.netgamers.org/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=5350 .

Even though kargool was a MH, he was never removed from any TGV channels. I even asked him if he wanted to have access to internal channels but he declined due to it maybe being perceived as a conflict of interest. He was a long time TGVer and I respect that.

At this point we thought we covered ourselves and had both access to the TGV tag and channels. May 17-20 was a long weekend here in Canada and I took advantage of that once again and went away. On Tuesday May 21, 2013 at about 1:40pm my time (9:40pm GMT if I am not mistaken) I had a message from CSC admin asking if I was there. I of course wasn’t. Clouds smsed me at 5:30pm (11:30pm GMT) asking me to come online. I pulled over from the road and asked what was going on but I was in a bad cell area so rushed home and made it back online 20 mins later. That’s when I found out a few things…

a) our channel access was once again all taken away

b) alliance reps were still Influence and myself but alliance reps don’t get access to the tag

c) notsure and kargool had me removed from the alliance tag list

d) I had my access removed from the TGV bot who owned all the channels

so basically we lost all access again. At this point I contacted #cservice once again. I was told they have to consult with Ace.

Prior to this Ace told me for channel issues I have to deal with #cservice. So basically I have been bouncing around from 1 group to another trying to get answer and get things sorted. Prior to this I thought the channel access was sorted. I had not take kargools access to the channels away I just increased our access so he couldn’t remove it again.

I believe it was on May 16th, kargool and I had a conversation over 7 or so hours. I was at work so couldn’t always reply right away. Also there was another conversation on May 21th in TGV internal channel. The gist of it was that kargool still wants to deny us the tag and everything associated with it. He brought up a few other items and still insisted that he was TGV.

He also brought up a few other things so I will try to clarify them too. Somewhere mid round, I cant remember the exact tick and I don’t think its very relevant, klownkiller who was a former Viking and even HC asked to join TGV. We were at that time full and had 3 people outside of the tag even. He started playing with PWND first and left their tag if I remember correctly. We weren’t sure if we could accommodate him but we would try. It turned out that as time went on we couldn’t. According to kargool we should have accommodated him. I am not sure if he ever answered the question or if he stated it for sure but he basically implied I should have kicked someone from the tag to let klownkiller in. I am not sure how that is relevant to the spirit of TGV. As an HC I will not kick a current member if they did not make any infraction so I disagreed with kargools implication that I should have kicked someone from the tag just to make room for klownkiller. I like klownkiller had some good times with him and if he came to use pre-ticks we would have made room for him somehow. But we were well into the round and full. If there was a legit reason to kick someone that would be a different story, but there wasn’t. I came close to kicking a few people but I consulted with the other HCs and things got resolved. I believe that HCs have to have some loyalty to members and not kick them for frivolous reasons.

The current state of things is that influence and I are still the alliance reps. According to the document http://forum.netgamers.org/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=5350

Quote:
P setting: Invisible 400 (Only users with 400 access or more can query P or the website regarding the access list)
Channel Modes: +Cnist
Requesting HC/Alliance Nick Rep gets added with 498 access.
we should get level 498 access to all the TGV channels, we currently don’t.
Also

Quote:
Q.
What happens if there is a dispute within our Alliance HC, and the 'owner' of the alliance nick uses his access to do thing which are not in the interest of the alliance.

A.
Alliance nicks are owned entirely by the Planetarion alliance, and controlled by the current ingame Alliance HC. In the event of a dispute, CSC Management and the Planetarion Alliance Representatives will attempt to make a determination based on the facts and information available to decide what is in the best interests of the alliance as a whole. This may include removing a disruptive HC from their IRC access.
is not very clear and lots of grey areas. At the moment #cservice has indicated they need to talk to Ace to get it sorted so I am waiting on that. I have also been removed from the in-game tag by kargool and notsure voting to have me removed. Influence and I are still the alliance reps as far as I know. The TGV bot is what I think #cservice needs to talk to Ace about but not sure since they haven’t provided me with that information. As it stands right now I was on the TGV bot access list with notsure.

If kargool wanted to run/start up TGV I would most likely concede the tag to him no problem, but him wanting to deny us the tag I have an issue with. The way he went about it, his name calling swearing at me and him stating that he is TGV… I am sorry but he is not. Yes he was 1 of the original founders back in r2 when TGV became an alliance. I joined tgv r3 and became HC r4. I was HC for a few rounds and then the dying community killed us off and I disbanded TGV. We still operated as a battle group. I kept the channel #tgv alive and actually inherited it from Jerazol, during r2 I think kargool owned the channel but that was before my time. At times I was the only one in #tgv talking but still managed to hang on to it. Kargool eventually came back to PA/IRC a couple of years later. He rejoined the community and started hanging out in #tgv. I cant remember exactly when but since I have logs going as far back as 2000/2001 I can dig through them. I think around r12/13 or so he asked me if he could start up TGV again. I said sure I have no issue with that and I gave him the access he needed to the channels. He started up TGV and I think I semi-played 1 or 2 rounds. Around 2006 or thereabouts I disappeared due to RL and kargool inherited the channel. I am not sure when the whole alliance protection came about but probably during my absence. I rejoined the PA community r40 or r41, cant remember exactly. At this point TGV had played 14 rounds between r14-40, or thereabouts. I became HC in TGV r43 I think, maybe r44, and as far as I know I think Influence has been HC of TGV r40 or 41 till now. I think r44 is when kargool stepped away from TGV to become a MH. Oh almost forgot, notsure has been HC of TGV for a long time too. How long I am not sure, only thing I know of is that she was HC from r40 onwards until she stopped playing a few rounds ago.

From what I posted above I do acknowledge that kargool is a founder and has been along time HC. But I do object to his statement that he is TGV. TGV has evolved over the rounds and he is not the only one that can lay claim to the tag. If he wanted to run TGV then yes I would most likely concede the tag, but in this case it’s him wanting to deprive us of the tag and everything associated with it including the history.

Current status
Currently I have been removed from the in-game TGV tag. Influence and I are still the alliance reps but alliance reps have no power or standing as we found out. If they had any power then according to the following document http://forum.netgamers.org/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=5350 we should have access level 498 to all TGV channels. So far I haven’t seen that. The TGV bot, who owns all the channel, had myself and notsure on the list. If that’s the case then I should have retained my access to all the TGV channels but I have been removed from that too as far as I know. Currently I am waiting for a response from #cservice who wants to consult with Ace, so in legal limbo at the moment. I have been removed from the in-game tag and only notsure and kargool have access to it. A majority vote can add/remove someone is what I have been able to figure out so far.

Now with respect to some of the accusations people have made towards PA Team… there have been a few mistakes and incorrect information being given out. The unfortunate thing is that anything PA related gets clumped under the PA Team umbrella. I believe Influence posted corrections but they seem to have been lost in all the posts. The alliance rep list is kept up to date by Ace and Spitfire. The in-game tag list is kept up to date by Ace. The alliance bot that owns all the channels is kept up to date by #cservice. All 3 lists do not fall under the PA Team responsibility. I hope that clarifies a few of the comments made with respect to the PA team

To the various alliances/HCs/reps/etc….

From all the conversations I have had it appears that alliance reps have absolutely no standing when it comes to access to anything. What matters are the people that are on the alliance tag list. A majority vote by the current holders of the tag list can remove someone. Even though the bot that owns the alliance channel is run by CSC and they keep the list up to date there is no procedure in place to have someone removed/added that I was made aware of.
The impression I am getting is that they will go with what the access list is on the alliance tag list. Turns out the other lists are meaningless and the one that matters is the in-game tag list. Trying to find out who is on what list has been difficult at times and I have gotten some contradictory information. Could be because we didn’t understand all the lists and how they are different or we didn’t ask the right questions, not sure.
My advice to you would be to verify the various list if you don’t know who is on which list. Actually even if you think you know it doesn’t hurt to verify the information.


To the various people that maintain the list

My suggestion is that you go through your procedures since there is quite a bit of confusing information. From what I gather it is possible that kargool/notsure can own the in-game tag and notsure/RexDrax be on the TGV bot list. That doesn’t quite make sense if there is a disagreement within the group. The alliance bot list and the in-game tag list should be the same list which means if one list is updated that group should be responsible for informing the other group of the changes, otherwise you could have messy situation.


Also the following few statements need to be looked at since if they were to be enforced Influence and I should not have lost our access to the alliance channels and I should not have lost my access.


Quote:
• Alliance nicks are owned by the PA alliance HC, whoever that may be during any given round.

Requesting HC/Alliance Nick Rep gets added with 498 access.

I was going to wait to post this till the end but I have had to repeat various things I posted above a few times. It was getting kinda tiring having to repeat myself, I am not a parrot. I am still waiting to hear back from CSC but I don’t think I will hear back from them for another few days, I been waiting 3 days already and not sure what’s going on. Instead of having to answer similar questions multiple times I have posted this. Not everyone is interested in the whole thing I am sure but it’s at least saving my fingers from typing over and over again.

Thanks and if you read the whole thing… I did warn you it was long.
-RexDrax
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Unread 25 May 2013, 12:28   #41
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Re: Powerabuse by a former HC

sad bast**ds writing essays about shite


grow up, download hon and join #hon

cu there
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Unread 27 May 2013, 10:59   #42
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Re: Powerabuse by a former HC

Why didn't you just tell Kargool 3 members got kicked for defending against TGV and another 4 or 5 (guessing) deleted their planets. You only really 'kicked' a couple of players didn't you? And I'm sure those were the inactives?

Then nothing would have happened and we could have all lived happily ever after.
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Unread 27 May 2013, 15:03   #43
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Re: Powerabuse by a former HC

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Originally Posted by Nightwolf View Post
Why didn't you just tell Kargool 3 members got kicked for defending against TGV and another 4 or 5 (guessing) deleted their planets. You only really 'kicked' a couple of players didn't you? And I'm sure those were the inactives?

Then nothing would have happened and we could have all lived happily ever after.
Like he cares about that. He didnt really give me a chance to explain and just went off on things. I think I said something along the lines that he wasnt HC and wasnt here the whole round so doesnt have the whole picture but not 100% sure.
In either case like it wouldnt have mattered that 3 people defended against a TGV attack and that 2 where on deletion mode for sure due to a baby coming and possibly 2 others due to some serious infractions. In either case whats done is done and he wasnt looking for an explanation, he just wanted to rant more than anything otherwise he would have taken my suggestion during eorc and gone for a walk or something and talk to me in a few days when he has calmed down.
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Unread 28 May 2013, 16:00   #44
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Re: Powerabuse by a former HC

wow... PA is the same old sh** in the hand of the same old ... people. wonderful decision, go on MH team, go on cservice! Go on arbitrary penalties! PA will grow much bigger thanks to the level of professionality shown once again
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Unread 28 May 2013, 17:40   #45
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Re: Powerabuse by a former HC

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Originally Posted by Korsan View Post
wow... PA is the same old sh** in the hand of the same old ... people. wonderful decision, go on MH team, go on cservice! Go on arbitrary penalties! PA will grow much bigger thanks to the level of professionality shown once again

I think we gotta come up with some answer on who owns an alliance, and who is allowed to decide if the name is gonna be used or not.
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Unread 28 May 2013, 23:28   #46
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Re: Powerabuse by a former HC

And here I was about to forget why I can't stand Kargool. Ty for reminding me
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Unread 30 May 2013, 16:19   #47
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Re: Powerabuse by a former HC

meh you guys will be better of with your own Viking horde
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Unread 30 May 2013, 19:17   #48
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Re: Powerabuse by a former HC

how ridiculous. if someone leaves the alliance with someone else in charge/control for a number of rounds, their ownership of said tag/channels is gone.

anything being done without all parties being heard is absurd as the round wasnt even running.

kargool lost his rights to the tag/channels when he left and allowed others to continue without him.
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Unread 31 May 2013, 02:13   #49
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Re: Powerabuse by a former HC

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Originally Posted by Reincarnate View Post
how ridiculous. if someone leaves the alliance with someone else in charge/control for a number of rounds, their ownership of said tag/channels is gone.

anything being done without all parties being heard is absurd as the round wasnt even running.

kargool lost his rights to the tag/channels when he left and allowed others to continue without him.
pretty much my view on this case aswell
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Unread 31 May 2013, 11:26   #50
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Re: Powerabuse by a former HC

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Originally Posted by Wishmaster View Post
Really doubt 40 people will leave pa over it though.
10 or so have already left the community/game over this, for your information.

Last edited by Clouds; 31 May 2013 at 11:36.
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