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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 22:36   #1
Ap0k
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Genetic recoding and Modificationeering.

as was said in my previous thread on the matter, it is a topic that there are a lot of mixed feelings about. on the one hand we have been given the ability to wipe out diseases (of the genetic kind) almost entirley, yet on the other, we are toying with human creation in the highest possible way.

so lets look at the advantages, admittedly i know little on this subject, but from what i do know, scientists are able to remove the certain 'bad parts' from your genes, therefore allowing birth of 100% healthy babies. no deformity, no illness or allergies etc. now, imo this is definitely a good thing, something that in the future could well benefit the human race much more than cloning (i mean.. what?!). the ability to remove all traces of a disease from life is a brilliant scientific discovery, and im certainly all for it. but it must be used in moderation. because this genetic tinkering apparently, doesnt just stop at that.

the next stage to this is the ability to 'purchase' talents/skills for your unborn children, that can be implanted into the DNA (is that right? or am i bs'ing? (feel free to correct)) to enable them to be piano players/sportsmen/etc. this is the part i have to say i dont agree with. i personally would not like to find out i was 'mixed and matched' from a list of skills and talents. it would give a sense of identity loss, and un-individuality. you would no longer be unique b/c there is a chance some other family, somewhere else in the world has picked those very same traits for their child.

imo it is a selfish reason of the parents. how can they possibly declare what their unborn children should and shoudnt like before they're even born?! while the child itself would not know it had been put together from a list of talents, i think the morals behind this are appalling, and also to open to abuse. what happens if the father wants his son to be everything he wasnt? how much stress does that put on the son when, even with these 'skill strings' as i will refer to them, doesnt make the grade that his father wants. it can potentially stress families to the point of separation. mother wants one thing, dad wants another.

so im still at the same point i started at. i dont know whether its right or wrong. certainly there is a lot of benefit from it, but the pschological effects on the child must also be considered if it is being taken as far as chosing skill strings.

edit: this is only the tip of the iceberg, i have a lot more to say on this matter, some things to think about are giving parents the ability to change what their children will look like, the cost of 'purchasing these additional skill strings and also of getting rid of DNA. but this is just to start the ball rolling
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 22:40   #2
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I'd suggest googling for one of the many many many many thousands of studies, debates and scientific/social articles written on this rather than throwing yourself willing into the moral quagmire of GD holding a big sign that says "flame and deride me".

Just a thought.

[edit: going better than I thought it would ]
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 22:42   #3
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We can design computers to perform better, and to do what be want.

Why shouldn't we design people to perform better too?

(Note: Above opinion will be subject to change every 5 minutes.)

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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 22:43   #4
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i am preparing for an evening of sitting in and being bored.

GD is my last hope of entertainment.

im also a little interested in other ppls views on the subject, and the amount of discussion threads on here today have been limited at best.
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 22:45   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ap0k
Fair enough.

It's not really relevant to human engineering but I do have a paper I wrote recently on the risks and benefits of crop manipulation if that will help give you some sort of context to work with.

I'll upload it somewhere if you want to take a look.
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 22:46   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cyp
We can design computers to perform better, and to do what be want.

Why shouldn't we design people to perform better too?
i dont see many unique computers these days. certainly very few one of a kind, never to be reproduced models. the issue im talking about is that of identity. and how this modifying could, ultimately result in the loss of it.

and human race seems to be pretty decent at performance as it is (apart from teh disease end) i dont see why it should be tinkered with so we can have better athletes etc, turning ppl into upgradable systems is bordering on AI (to an extent)
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 22:48   #7
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Computers aren't really a good analogy as we can turn them off and swap bits.

Doing the genetic equivalent to a human would be excruciatingly painful, if not (and this is more likely) fatal.
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 22:48   #8
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I'll leave it to W to shout at you about genetics.

As to your moral dilemma - presuming that at some scientists could do some of the things you mention then it'd generally be best if we didn't do them.

I'm not sure though what right I'd have to decide that someone couldn't make their kid taller though.

Overall I think the basic rules that I'd agree to would be :
i) You can correct any disability/genetic problem which a child has been identified with (prior to the being born).
ii) You can't "improve" your kid beyond anyone else, since that might lead to "arms race" type things.
iii) Clearly charging people for these sorts of things would be wrong in an unequal society since it would utterly destroy any idea of meritocracy within a single generation.
iv) Making people immune to fatal (or highly damaging) diseases seems to be fine, so long as everyone could have the treatment.

Fortunately a lot of these aren't really problems though since whether is someone is good at music (or even sport) isn't a simple genetic trait. But as I say, I'll save that rant for others. Assuming that they could do things like that, then it'd better to get all doctors/scientists to agree not to perform such experiments.
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 22:49   #9
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Re: Genetic recoding and Modificationeering.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ap0k
as was said in my previous thread on the matter, it is a topic that there are a lot of mixed feelings about. on the one hand we have been given the ability to wipe out diseases (of the genetic kind) almost entirley, yet on the other, we are toying with human creation in the highest possible way.

you would no longer be unique b/c there is a chance some other family, somewhere else in the world has picked those very same traits for their child.

Playing God could be useful. Slight disturbance on Individualism wouldn't hurt, as it's no hot trend anymore with people being ignorant dumbasses (see Democracy).


Playing 'God' would have it's own (possibly glorious, possibly infernal) consequenses, but here's what I think (primarily, there is no God). Now, this might sound goofy or Raelian, but I might lean towards Raelic cause in some way.

The existance of any race is to become dominant. I believe there are other races in existance in addition to ones that exist in our planet. Human race has proven superior in Earth - in the Milky Way. But there are thousands and thousands of places yet to be conquered. Humanity, as all races, is to seek it's perfection; if it takes genetic engineering of children to be born to complete the human race or to develop us, so be it. If cloning or genetic techs could make me, in terms of lifespan, immortal, I wouldn't hesitate a moment. I would be prepared to pay the highest price I possibly could for it. If I could manipulate my children - before they are born - to be superior to the 'normal' design of man, I sure hell would.

Genetics is a synonyme for infinite possibilities. Think of anything the mankind could achieve if it was possible to re-design a man; increasing intellect potential, increasen constitution, lifespan and resistance to diseases. The world - could - be a better place, or it - could - be worse. It's all about taking chances. I think that genetics is the opportunity for humans to develop beyond the current limit (well, I think our capacity has reached it's peak), and advance in evolution - even if artificially.

We'd become greater. And yet greater.

I think that's something to slice and dice a few ethical problems for. Besides, the community needs to change and the changes must start from the bottom - from the humans; the current inefficiency and corruption could be replaced by proper design and manipulation of children.

I might sound satanic. Or communistic. Or utopistic - or dystopistic. But I am an extreme technocrat. I believe that we need to - and with technology - we can be superior. If that is the purpose of our existance, then by all means, let us strive to reach it. But that's what I think. It's an open field, waiting for someone to score.

It's all just a big game.
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 22:51   #10
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[example.]

parents want child to be an athlete, one able to, eventually compete in the olympics.

multiple parents want this for their children.

so in later years of their life the true quality of their performance will not be based on their training, but on what athletic.runner.hu (humanupgrade) they have. as such, as time progresses the newer human models with the more recent upgrades will be the victors. it will highly reduce the element of competition at such events.

[/example]
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 22:52   #11
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The short version: There's nothing wrong with using technology to improve ourselves as a race. The problems come when we don't know what the hell we're doing (i.e. the current situation). In the future it will be (no speculation here, it will be) a very useful branch of science, right now we're just fumbling round in the dark.
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 22:54   #12
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I think there's a high degree of probability that Gens would be barred from competing in the Olympics.

However due to the high commercial prospects of Gen Olympics I don't think it would take long before they got their own version.

Assuming they weren't stabbed to death with pointy sticks by the normals, anyway.
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 22:57   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ap0k
i dont see many unique computers these days. certainly very few one of a kind, never to be reproduced models. the issue im talking about is that of identity. and how this modifying could, ultimately result in the loss of it.

and human race seems to be pretty decent at performance as it is (apart from teh disease end) i dont see why it should be tinkered with so we can have better athletes etc, turning ppl into upgradable systems is bordering on AI (to an extent)
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The computers may not vary much, but the data stored on them does.
Would you want a computer want to have a slower processor, or
different instruction set, just to be different? Why would you want a
person to think slower, or have less abilities, just to be different?
Some diversity exists in computers, designed for different tasks that
standard computers are slow at, or can't do. (Like mass parallel
processing, or building physical objects with robotic arms.) Wouldn't
there similarly remain diversity in people, as people are designed to
function better at different tasks?

(Note: Above opinion will be subject to change every 5 minutes.)

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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 22:58   #14
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I agree with Gayle.

But ap0k, when genetics reaches it's peak - when we really start advancing as a race, there'll no longer be sports in a competitive way, because it wouldn't be tough to engineer a maximum-athlete. Or then there would be sports just to entertain people, we'd engineer zounds of top-bodies to compete.

But it's not the point. It's unnecessary. Nobody is truly interested in cloning top athletes. It does not develop the humanity.

Immortality is what we seek.
Resistance to blows is what we seek.
Intelligence is what we seek.

Power is what we seek. Power over nature.

That we will have - if genetics develops. Morals are nothing when it comes to artificially manipulating evolution - one of the true powers of nature concerning the mankind. I believe, in future, we will bypass ethics and morality - alot like the Americans are doing on their field of anti-muslim and anti-'terrorism', and start creating a new race of highly potent humans. After wich we can be closer to becoming perfect. To becoming dominant. And that's what nature is all about.
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 22:59   #15
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Re: Re: Genetic recoding and Modificationeering.

Quote:
Originally posted by Tietäjä
as far as immortality goes, personally id rather be mortal. the knowledge of your own death gives a certain sense of freedom. and what if u were to be immortal but all your loved ones and friends were not? you would have to sit and watch them all pass away, meanwhile you stayed constant. eventually immortality would get boring. once you've seen it all and done it all and theres nothing left to do your purpose in life becomes very limited.

as far as giving advances to children to make them intellectually superior to 'normal folk' how would this be controlled? they would need separate schools, they would have to do harder exams, where would the money for such projects come from? it would have as much impact on the economy as it would on individuality. being smarter than your average kid could set you out of a social clique and end up in your only friends being those limited amount that are equal to you in intelligence.
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 23:03   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tietäjä
After wich we can be closer to becoming perfect. To becoming dominant. And that's what nature is all about.
once we're all dominant what will we dominate?

(just spreading the seeds, spreading.. spreading)
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 23:04   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tietäjä
Some good points

However, the question is not really one of ethical or moral barriers to human advancement (after all, since when has the West let morals stand in the way of something it wanted to achieve?)

It is more a question of ecology. Improving people's longevity, resistance and physical capacity with reckless abandon would destroy the planet within a few short and violent years unless there was a major cull of humans who didn't come up to scratch (okay so maybe some ethics involved here ), and extensive "don't breed much" incentives.
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 23:05   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gayle28uk
The short version: There's nothing wrong with using technology to improve ourselves as a race.
This really depends on what you mean by improve here. If you're talking about making people stronger/taller/smarter/faster then I think it comes to an irrational subjective view...

I personally would prefer it if, in twenty thousand years or so, that the human beings around (presuming we still are) look and act roughly like me. Call it irrational, call it ego, call it old fashioned...the idea that they would be different would make me feel slightly...sad. It's like we would have "lost" somehow.

I have no problem with technological advancements of other kind, but genetics seems to tamper with what we are. I have no problem with (say) calculators being available which means we can perform sums thousands of times faster than otherwise. But the idea of manipulating my descedents so they can do the same in their head sends shivers down my spine.

It's almost like it wouldn't be "the human condition" anymore.
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 23:08   #19
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There was a book I read once (can't remember what) in which new 'races' were genetically created to colonize the solar system. For example, small + nimble people with arms instead of legs, would live their entire lives without gravity in space stations. People on different planets would be modified in certain ways to be able to tolerate their new homes.

While it would suck to be assigned a task/living area before your birth, if it was a case where modification was neccesary for a purpose like this I would support it.

But.....obviously this is science fiction. As for real-life use? My impulse is to let the parents f**k up their kids as they will, and learn the hard way. If it works, it could change the world forever, if it doesn't, well, it cost a generation, but now(then) we know.
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 23:08   #20
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Re: Re: Re: Genetic recoding and Modificationeering.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ap0k
---
Immortality would give power. Power and dominance over nature. You've never felt it, nor have I, so you might find it difficult to lust. Of course there are benefits of being mortal. I, personally, don't care about my family that much - I've had bad luck with those rolls, if you know what I mean (I can post my sorrows if you wish). But there will always be other people - in addition to you. But it's not what's interesting. The sheer power is.

What comes to intelligence, yes, the educational system needs to be developed, but once one can overcome the limit of used brain capacity (wich is, what, 4% of our brains are used in general?), development of tech would boost alot. Money is not a problem, if USA alone stopped their military development, there would be no problems with money. If the techs are found, money will soon follow - being able to manipulate humans is such a great gift to gain. People would have 'same' intelligence levels - but cognitive development would still make everyone individual, different, even though they'd all be 'max-intelligent' - I believe, when the capacity is maximized, they'd come up with a way to increase it beyond the theoretic current maximum.

It's yet about power over nature. "God made human a picture of Himself". Now Man wants to polish and fulfill that picture. And soon, will be capable of doing it. The goal of genetics won't be just developing our resitance to hostilities, but to also enchance our potential and capabilities. Eventually, it'll be that way. Regardless of what philosophers and other poocrap people say.
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 23:09   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by sayonara
Some good points

However, the question is not really one of ethical or moral barriers to human advancement (after all, since when has the West let morals stand in the way of something it wanted to achieve?)

It is more a question of ecology. Improving people's longevity, resistance and physical capacity with reckless abandon would destroy the planet within a few short and violent years unless there was a major cull of humans who didn't come up to scratch (okay so maybe some ethics involved here ), and extensive "don't breed much" incentives.
the breding part is another concern. if hummans, on average began to live 50/60/70+ years more, this would have major effects on the food supplies. more food would be needed for more ppl, the population of the planet would exponentially increase. what happens if we run out of room?

the only way this could be contained would be, as you say, adopting a policy such as japans in that parents can only have one child. but by doing this you stunt the momentum of such experimental humans, less modified children means less 'de-bugging' (wrong word i know, but i can think of no other way to describe it), which in turn would mean the advancement of the race itself slowed down.

kind of a paradox
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 23:09   #22
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I don't care what the rest of you choose to do.

But my kids will have big angel wings.

I know; they probably won't be able to truly fly.

But they will be able to go hang gliding on the cheap. And when the AC is out it will help in a pinch.

(I think people that are against it are just afraid of being inferior. Well, news to you: you are already inferior without the help of genetically tweaked types. So don't worry)
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 23:12   #23
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to ap0k on what we will dominate:
The universe is potentially infinite, or at least quite large. There'll be many conquestadors heading there, just like to America when it was first 'found'.

to sayonara on breeding and killing (sounds corny):
Obviously there would be a dominant region - the west, very likely, and everyone opposing would be annihilated (the USA has already started by annihilating the middle-east, as soon as they find conveniant they'll continue to africa, and prolly take care of the non-western countries excluding ones with nuclear weaponry, wich will prolly eventually be made obsolete by defense mechanisms, allowing china to be splashed too. We'll end up with a handful of nations - USA, Europe, Japan?).

Controlling breeds wouldn't be difficult: at that point, very few would like a non-maximized child, and efficiently giving each family only two engineered kids (and replacements in case of fatal accidents etc) would solve it.
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 23:15   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tietäjä
to ap0k on what we will dominate:
The universe is potentially infinite, or at least quite large. There'll be many conquestadors heading there, just like to America when it was first 'found'.
what makes u so sure that they will be hostile to the human race?

and has anyone ever stopped to consider that we human could be the most advanced society in the universe, and the the rest of these other races (which, i also believe exist, somewhere) are still struggling along with stone weapons and other such instruments. (that is completely hypothetical anyway, no one can possible know the technological advancements of other alien races)
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 23:16   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ap0k
the breding part is another concern. if hummans, on average began to live 50/60/70+ years more, this would have major effects on the food supplies. more food would be needed for more ppl, the population of the planet would exponentially increase. what happens if we run out of room?

the only way this could be contained would be, as you say, adopting a policy such as japans in that parents can only have one child. but by doing this you stunt the momentum of such experimental humans, less modified children means less 'de-bugging' (wrong word i know, but i can think of no other way to describe it), which in turn would mean the advancement of the race itself slowed down.

kind of a paradox
The advancement of nations and wellfare would take down the population growth. Already now, western countries produce less than 2 kids pro pair of parents. Adopting such a policy would be no problem. The advancement of the race could be completely adjusted by genetics - when we can control how a person becomes, we can make him extremely intelligent and just seat them down to study more. Further to that, I fail to understand your point. And with efficient use (stop using meat, replace with veggies) the Earth can feed tripled it's current population.

And don't forget hydropontic farms on the moon
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 23:18   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cyp
The computers may not vary much, but the data stored on them does.
Would you want a computer want to have a slower processor, or
different instruction set, just to be different? Why would you want a
person to think slower, or have less abilities, just to be different?
Some diversity exists in computers, designed for different tasks that
standard computers are slow at, or can't do. (Like mass parallel
processing, or building physical objects with robotic arms.) Wouldn't
there similarly remain diversity in people, as people are designed to
function better at different tasks?
while i dont disagree with that statement, you must also consider how other ppl who havent had the chances to get these upgrades (due to whatever reason) before birth will feel in, potentially, a society dominated by custom kiddies. my personal guess is that a life of isolation and not being 'the popular kid' (which, albeit, isnt always bad) could ensue.
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 23:19   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ap0k
what makes u so sure that they will be hostile to the human race?

and has anyone ever stopped to consider that we human could be the most advanced society in the universe, and the the rest of these other races (which, i also believe exist, somewhere) are still struggling along with stone weapons and other such instruments. (that is completely hypothetical anyway, no one can possible know the technological advancements of other alien races)
They would not necessarily be hostile. The aztecs weren't hostile.

If the humans are most advanced, the others are to be enslaved.

If there were races very much more advanced than us, they'd be here already. The technology advancement tends to be exponential in growth (think about it, how much we've achieved in the 20th century compared to centuries from 4th bc till 19th - that's alot). Besides, there's alot to colonize and conquer. Before the universe collapses. If that can be prevented, there must be something else. In thousands and thousands of years, the mankind might be able to find out - and if you are fundamental christian - maybe even knock the doors of heaven - literally.
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 23:20   #28
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Genetic recoding and Modificationeering.

Quote:
Originally posted by Tietäjä
(wich is, what, 4% of our brains are used in general?)
A common misconception. On average around 10% of our brain is engaged in activity at any one time. This is similar to the whole "you lose 70% of your heat from the top of your head" thing, which should really be '70% of the heat you lose is through the top of your head".

I think we should also consider social and economic implications of 'genome editing'.

Socially speaking, it would have to be an all-or-nothing event. Either everyone can have access to this technology or nobody can. Otherwise there would be a very real risk of creating an elite super-race, and historically we've already seen how that will end. Logistics would be tremendously difficult - if you planned to phase in modifications you'd have to ensure that your Gens didn't decide they rather liked being better than everyone else before you'd finished the programme. I oversimplify all of this, but hopefully you all have the capacity to extrapolate more subtle and questionable social effects.

Commerce would be irreperably damaged. Who would buy gym equipment if they could simply program themselves to be faster, stronger or more accurate? Who would buy textbooks or learning assistance technology if they can stick a needle in their arm and become more smart? What would happen to the teachers, the professors, the team captains, the trainers, and the endless hordes of people who run, support, maintain, organise and and plan fitnes, sports and educational institutions and businesses?
I'm fairly confident economic pressures would run far deeper than this, but at the moment I am split between this thread and study and I really need to get on...
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 23:23   #29
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Genetic recoding and Modificationeering.

Quote:
Originally posted by sayonara
---
History proves no future. Commercial problems can be solved. Commerce was irreperably damaged during the industrialization already, and during the end of the Roman empire, but see where we are. Economics might cease to exist. With a communistic (wich could be possible with good enough engineering and propaganda, in harsh terms) system there would be no need for such.

Mkay about the brains, but you must agree we aren't capping the capacity yet - and if we are, there are likely ways to increase that capacity.
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 23:27   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tietäjä
If the humans are most advanced, the others are to be enslaved.

If there were races very much more advanced than us, they'd be here already. The technology advancement tends to be exponential in growth (think about it, how much we've achieved in the 20th century compared to centuries from 4th bc till 19th - that's alot). Besides, there's alot to colonize and conquer. Before the universe collapses. If that can be prevented, there must be something else. In thousands and thousands of years, the mankind might be able to find out - and if you are fundamental christian - maybe even knock the doors of heaven - literally.
slavery is frowned on by todays society (well, most of it) to meh, it creates a sense that someone/thing is inferior to another. which is something i dont agree with

the reason technology has advanced so much in the last century was the military reason. almost all our current technology (computers, internet etc) has been created because of the need for it during wartime. without the 2 world wars along with the smaller skirmishes (vietnam, the gulf etc) i highly doubt we would be anywhere near the stage of technological advancement as we are today.

there may be a lot to colonize and conquer, but for what purpose? i can understand the quest for knowledge and all that, but once all has been discovered, what then? what if this universe business isnt quite all its been cracked up to be
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 23:30   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ap0k
what makes u so sure that they will be hostile to the human race?

and has anyone ever stopped to consider that we human could be the most advanced society in the universe, and the the rest of these other races (which, i also believe exist, somewhere) are still struggling along with stone weapons and other such instruments. (that is completely hypothetical anyway, no one can possible know the technological advancements of other alien races)
So if you encountered said race, what would you do?

I'd probably steal their stone weapons and fly back home laughing.

But some unscrupulous types might try to become their gods.
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 23:30   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ap0k

there may be a lot to colonize and conquer, but for what purpose? i can understand the quest for knowledge and all that, but once all has been discovered, what then? what if this universe business isnt quite all its been cracked up to be
If there are other races weaker than us, I see no reason not to enslave them. And the militarywise advance will continue. Until America has removed all threats. After wich we can possibly alter genetics enough to start inventing conventional, handy things. Internet was created as a communication between universities.

For what purpose? To gather Knowledge. To collect power beyond imagination.

The universe is fascinating. The human wants to defeat it, control it. Win the game, you know?
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 23:32   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by acropolis
So if you encountered said race, what would you do?

I'd probably steal their stone weapons and fly back home laughing.

But some unscrupulous types might try to become their gods.
I would go for the second. Wichafter I would see if the race is of any use - if it has any potential higher than the human race has. If it had higher intelligence potential, I'd genocide the race, if it was handy as a tool, I'd make it one.
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 23:33   #34
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"It is said an eastern monarch once charged his wise men to invent a sentence, to be ever in view, and which should be true and appropriate in all times and situations. They presented him with the words, 'And this, too, shall pass away.'"

(just thought id throw that in...)

(spreading the seeds... spreading... spreading...)
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 23:36   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ap0k
"It is said an eastern monarch once charged his wise men to invent a sentence, to be ever in view, and which should be true and appropriate in all times and situations. They presented him with the words, 'And this, too, shall pass away.'"
How much it expresses! How chastening in the hour of pride! How consoling in the depths of affliction!
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 23:37   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ap0k
"It is said an eastern monarch once charged his wise men to invent a sentence, to be ever in view, and which should be true and appropriate in all times and situations. They presented him with the words, 'And this, too, shall pass away.'"

(just thought id throw that in...)

(spreading the seeds... spreading... spreading...)
I've always disliked philosophers, even if I have valued and been fascinated by their wits.

The only one that really caught me was Nietschze, and not for his philosophy, but for his impressing charisma. A true inspiration.
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 23:37   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tietäjä
I would go for the second. Wichafter I would see if the race is of any use - if it has any potential higher than the human race has. If it had higher intelligence potential, I'd genocide the race, if it was handy as a tool, I'd make it one.
what is we were that race? and a superior race came along and twatted us?

(but we're drifting off topic)

if you were one of these modified children, who had been implanted with something to make him more intelligent. would you not (altho being grateful) feel a certain resentment to wards your parents. they werent happy with u as you were so they went and fiddled with ur genes to get something they were happy with. i know id feel a little inadequate. while i may be grateful to them for making me smarter, i would question why they wanted me to be smarter. to brag to their friends? or maybe it was just so they would have the knowledge that at least then id definitely be smart, as opposed to 'chancing it like those normal folk do with their kids'
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 23:37   #38
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Tietäjä, you really need to get your head out of the clouds for this discussion as you haven't said anything helpful yet.

History should not be ignored. Do you honestly believe a superior strain of humanity living among the rest of us would tolerate our pathetic whining for more than 5 minutes? It would not take long before they went all Nazi on us, it really wouldn't.

Commercial problems cannot be 'solved' magically in a civilisation that runs on profit, stocks and shares with 24/7 changes. In a system where discreet changes cause massive cascade effects, suddenly removing a huge chunk from the playing board wreaks havoc. Look at some economic models if you think this is untrue.

The industrial revolution took place over more than a century end-to-end. You are talking about a rapid and drastic change to a dynamic population. NOT the same thing. As for the Roman Empire example... well, it's completely useless for comparative reasons in this conversation. You don't even state why it's relevant.

Claiming that economics might cease to exist just because we improve ourselves a bit is, to my mind, skirting the edge of reason a bit.

As far as brains go, if you want to see what happens to someone when they get up to about 95% average brain use, go to the vegetable ward at your nearest hospital. Neurons use acetylcholine (ACH) to trigger and adenine triphosphate (ATP) for their energy requirements. It's not feasible to maintain saturation levels of these molecules in the brain for any sustained period of time even with genetic modifications. Not to mention the heat would probably explode your skull.

Advanced races across the galaxy would most likely not be here. Crossing the stars is retarded when you can make yourself heard with an EM signal. Although there's a good chance there are some space-faring species, most will remain local to their own patch of woods. The chances of an exploratory vessel leaving a planet in this galaxy and travelling toward us are about 1 in 10 to the power of a hundred million.

I don't seem to be able to extrapolate the missing time between us modifying ourselves and going to the stars. What happens during that gap?
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 23:38   #39
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Quote:
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How much it expresses! How chastening in the hour of pride! How consoling in the depths of affliction!
i knew there was another bit to it couldnt remember it for the life of meh

ty
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 23:43   #40
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Ap0k,
I would likely have something wards my parents, but I would be grateful to be allowed to be superior. I wouldn't care why they wanted me smarter. I would be happy I was. Don't look to the mouth of the gift.

Sayonara,
I never said history should be ignored - I merely noted it doesn't really predict the future. I believe that the problem with commercials would be true and difficult - but as always, there would be a way to solve it. There has always been, if you look behind in history. In a way, you are right - but it's pure speculation, and with the current views many things are impossible for humans, but so was space travel in the 6th century.

It's hard to predict what kind of tech we'll be able to use in thousand years, or hundred thousand years, if we continue to exist. We might be great, a powerful race dominant in several galaxies, even if we had found no outside life yet.

And what comes to EM signals, we've sent them to space, and we are trying to receive them too.
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 23:47   #41
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apparently there are about 7.6 bn years until the earth explodes in on itself/gets melted/ whatever (everyone dies, put it that way)

personally, i fail to see the rush to become this intergalactic supremist force to be reckoned with. ppl on average live longer now than they did at the start of the 20thC, they are smarter, more athletic as it is.

i dont see the need to 'create' something that is evolving anyway. especially since we know evolution is working. its more like a case of 'it it aint broke, why fix it'
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 23:48   #42
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I'm all for genetic improvement. It helps human diversity, no matter what anyone says. And suddenly a child has someone to blame for his genes, he no longer have to should his curses to the sky, he can sue his parents! I'd prefer some form of direct modification of humans, instead of gene manipulation of featuses tho, so I could benefit from it myself.

On the immortality issue (and I suspect you mean immorbidity, there's no gene for "can't be killed"), well, you can keep your mortality for all I care. Just don't go raving about the morals of me being healthy when you choose to be sick.
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 23:48   #43
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Tietäjä, you're right when you say History does not predict the future. However it does display general trends and patterns that we can see occurring over and over again.

Combining this with known science, known social effects and the predictability of human responses, it's not difficult to create a reasonable picture of what will probably happen in the situation Ap0k is proposing.

What concerns me with your ideas is that they seem to be a series of sweeping statements, rather than progressive logic.


As for the radio signals, all true. Unfortunately searching the skies for radio signals is like looking for an atom in a haystack. Plus the transit time between star systems won't help. Tachyon communications might help get past that but not, I suspect, for quite some time.
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 23:55   #44
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Sayonara,
history does show general patterns and yes, the nazis did repeat Napoleon's mistakes et cetera, and the way of genetic engineering (on top of it, in the way we speculate here) might lead to a disaster, but remember, there's also the possibility of succeeding in an utopic (or dystopic, for some) situation.

A short judgement on my logics.
- Exponential growth of technology in general (true).
- With more intelligent people, even higher technology (true)
- Rapid growth of space travel, extended lifespan, many possibilities (true)


a hundred thousand years of fast development here

- simplified and fast space travel
- locating other species potentially existing


I'm no rocket scientist, so I won't be describing you how that thorium cell works, but it's something that'll eventually be found out - as tachyon communications will. That eventually can be speeded up by increased intelligence.
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 23:57   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by W
I'm all for genetic improvement. It helps human diversity, no matter what anyone says. And suddenly a child has someone to blame for his genes, he no longer have to should his curses to the sky, he can sue his parents! I'd prefer some form of direct modification of humans, instead of gene manipulation of featuses tho, so I could benefit from it myself.

On the immortality issue (and I suspect you mean immorbidity, there's no gene for "can't be killed"), well, you can keep your mortality for all I care. Just don't go raving about the morals of me being healthy when you choose to be sick.
humans arent diverse anough as it is?

the thing with the way technology is heading these days is that sooner or later it will end up stifling human diversity, 'popular' strings will be developed. hell, it could even become a market.

possibly the only way to combat this would be once a string was 'bought'/used/whatever, it was then destroyed so that only one person could ever have that particular trait. but how this would be done, and with, no doubt, a black market from dna strings (or whatever, im sure u know what im talking about) the whole thing could go very very wrong, very quickly.

another thing to consider is the current terrorist threat on, pretty much the whole planet. what happens if this technology gets into the wrong hands? would you want mistar hussein to have the ability to create more little tiny husseins. its a slightly more effective way of brainwashing (again, to an extent)


(none of this was aimed directly at u W, im just rolling with the ideas as i think of them)
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 23:58   #46
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That's all speculation, Tietäjä. This is what I'm talking about - making a statement without a source or explanation is useless, even if it is followed by "(true)".

I agree there is a general trend towards accelerated technological advancements, especially where the average intelligence of the population is rising. However, it's far more likely to end in bloodshed waaaay before any of that gets off the ground.
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Unread 19 Jan 2003, 00:05   #47
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Re: Genetic recoding and Modificationeering.

very few of the moral problems inherent in cloning and genetic manipulation exist purely as a result of cloning and manipulation. achievement of the children, wierd parents and so on already exist..... for example I have heard people say 'a cloned/manipulated child would only be treated strangely' ... well look at michael Jackson's children and tell me they aren't... and they were bought about by natural processes.
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Unread 19 Jan 2003, 00:06   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by sayonara

That's all speculation, Tietäjä. This is what I'm talking about - making a statement without a source or explanation is useless, even if it is followed by "(true)".

I agree there is a general trend towards accelerated technological advancements, especially where the average intelligence of the population is rising. However, it's far more likely to end in bloodshed waaaay before any of that gets off the ground.
It's all speculation, but didn't I already mention that in several occasions? Everything we have said here is speculation - it's possible we can never even develop human genetically - wich would basically crash every single thought here.

And yes, a bloodshed is possible, but not mandatory in any way.

...
Technology has always fastened it's advancement like an exponential graph, you must know that. Also, it's obvious that heightened intelligence would increase the capabilities of exploring science and thus accelerating tech advancement (think about homo sapiens sapiens compared to neanderthalian, intelligencewise). With tech advancements, we MIGHT (sooner or later) be able to expand our lifespan longer and longer, nearly infinite (thousand years or so). Eventually, development (if no bloodhshed, end of the world, etc happens before) would lead into the improvements I mentioned. Clear enough?
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Unread 19 Jan 2003, 00:15   #49
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tietäjä
Sayonara,
history does show general patterns and yes, the nazis did repeat Napoleon's mistakes et cetera, and the way of genetic engineering (on top of it, in the way we speculate here) might lead to a disaster, but remember, there's also the possibility of succeeding in an utopic (or dystopic, for some) situation.
"Those who do not study history is doomed to repeat it" or words to that effect. Some humans actually do study history, which backs your point.
Quote:

A short judgement on my logics.
- Exponential growth of technology in general (true).
Absolutely untrue. Name one measure of technology that hasn't stagnated since the last war. This is the most-repeated myth of our time, that technology increases the growth of technology. Sometimes, rarely, a discovery will open a new field of study. That's as far as that theory goes.
Quote:

- With more intelligent people, even higher technology (true)
No. More intelligent people might realize there is little to gain in technology, and go live in the nature. "Oh they won't" you'll say, but how do you know, if you aren't already as intelligent as they will be?
Quote:

- Rapid growth of space travel, extended lifespan, many possibilities (true)
Space travel?? Why would anyone travel to space? Why would space technology for people likely to travel to space come about?
Quote:

a hundred thousand years of fast development here

- simplified and fast space travel
Probably true, but to what extend we don't know.
Quote:

- locating other species potentially existing
I would say that the chance of NOT locating a new species outside of earth would not diminnish noticeable by our technology. Please consider what I'm saying here. REad it again if you don't understand it.
Quote:

I'm no rocket scientist, so I won't be describing you how that thorium cell works, but it's something that'll eventually be found out - as tachyon communications will. That eventually can be speeded up by increased intelligence.
Nonsense. Relativity, or a variant of it, might never be improved by humans (ie to all intents and purposes, it's a "true" theory) and lightspeed communications/travel will be impossible. We might be on the brink of knowing all that can be known about the universe, it might not have any more secrets we can take advantage off. I don't beleive this, but it is a distinct possibility.
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Unread 19 Jan 2003, 00:19   #50
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on a side note

they have discovered basic teleportation. a while back (ill google for in a min or two) there was a news report on how they had managed to move an apple or tomato or sumthin from one place to another using a complicated array of lasers (or sumthin)

however they are a long long way away from human experimentation with it. there is still a lot of theorising and stuff to be done. prepare for a google linkage


edit: since it appears that some ppl are taking my word to be the law on this issue, i will take this opportunity to state that what has been said above is by no means accurate on my account, i was referring to a news report i heard 8 months before the posting of this thread and working off the best of my recollection. my actual google results (from a news website, so even at that, not entirely reliable) can be found a few posts after this, and subsequently, there is a smiting of meh by W in which i am forced to explain how un-relavent this is to the thread at hand. apologies for any misconceptions that i actually knew what i was talking about where this subject is concerned.
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Last edited by Ap0k; 19 Jan 2003 at 01:43.
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