Planetarion Forums

SnaarffiE · 21 Nov 2002, 01:16

hi. im new to the world of programming (part from when i was playin round with basic on my old amstrad tape thingy comp bout 10 yrs ago) i was wondering what is the "best" language to learn and the easiest to learn.
all input will be welcomed

Gayle29uk · 21 Nov 2002, 01:23

What for?

Kinda need to know what you want to do with it

SnaarffiE · 21 Nov 2002, 01:25

i duno really i just fancied like learning a language for general stuff

Gayle29uk · 21 Nov 2002, 01:26

General stuff...gee, you're helpful today

Okay, join the bandwagon and learn PHP. There ya go.

SnaarffiE · 21 Nov 2002, 01:27

hehe php. wots it generaly used for. o and to be a icle more precise i wana make a really cool 3d game :P

Gayle29uk · 21 Nov 2002, 01:27

Spend several years learning C++ and applied mathematics then

SnaarffiE · 21 Nov 2002, 01:29

hehe so u think that php is the best lang to start learning. will it set me in good sted for learnign other lanuages

SnaarffiE · 21 Nov 2002, 01:31

looking on php.net it says that it is genearly used for web site etc but i av neva made one o them b4 so should i still learn it. can it make apps o any sort?

Gayle29uk · 21 Nov 2002, 01:32

Um...depends how you go about it. Probably a traditional language with file handling/dynamic memory allocation/all that jazz would be better if you know nothing beyond Amstrad BASIC. To be honest (and without being patronizing) I'm not entirely sure you even begin to appreciate what's involved.

[edit] and in reply to your other post, it's a web only thing so no, you can't do standalone apps with it. However, at the time I suggested it you hadn't sqaid what you wanted it for hence the uselessness of the suggestion.[/edit]

Atamur · 21 Nov 2002, 01:33

PHP is a special purpose language. if you don't know what exactly you want, stick with something simple and general purpose. VBScript comes to mind (assuming you are using windows). If you are using a unix variant, go for shell scripting.

SnaarffiE · 21 Nov 2002, 01:34

im in windows and i have no idea wot im getting myself into :P

Gayle29uk · 21 Nov 2002, 01:38

I would encourage every single computer user to learn at least one programming language (even my mum does HTML and she's 50 \o/) but don't think writing a 3D windows game is gonna happen overnight 'cos it's not.

I won't make any suggestions for a first language (8 bit BASIC doesn't count :P) as everyone knows I'm biased in favour of C (which some say is a bad place to start) but go for it, maybe someone who knows Delphi can give an idea on how useful that is as a training language

21 Nov 2002, 01:58

try java ( http://java.sun.com ) you can do pretty much everything with it (except games probably because its still a bit 'slow') and there are lots of tutorials and stuff
(and yes, im a bit biased in favour of java

)

edit: or search this forum a little, there was a very long thread about the same topic a few weeks / month ago)

queball · 21 Nov 2002, 02:49

Paging Weeks to this thread!

I'd also like to make a game one day, I have a few ideas. I've got a fair bit of experience programming though:

Unless you want to do something very special, you can just use an existing engine. Could you just make a mod for Half-Life? If you need to control the game world more, you need to program at a lower level. You could always program straight on top of OpenGL, the lingua franca of 3D cards. Or use something like Crystalspace, can you see yourself writing code like this block game?

languages...
A popular low level systems programming language is C. C has been called a "portable assembler"; once you understand variables, memory, pointers, heap, stack, etc it gives you a lot of control. C is used all over the place, in particular Quake is C and assembly, and you can download the source at http://www.quakeforge.org/. It does put you in a good position to learn C++ as far as writing games in each language goes.

Leshy · 21 Nov 2002, 04:56

Quote:

Originally posted by Gayle28uk
(8 bit BASIC doesn't count :P)

QBASIC > YOU

Gayle29uk · 21 Nov 2002, 05:13

Quote:

Originally posted by Leshy
QBASIC > YOU

The ape game with the exploding bananas \o/

Leshy · 21 Nov 2002, 05:20

Quote:

Originally posted by Gayle28uk
The ape game with the exploding bananas \o/

\o/

And not to forget: the summum of my programming skills: The Quest for Glory Quiz! (Hey, there were even graphics.)

Gayle29uk · 21 Nov 2002, 05:22

Don't remember that one

But the banana thing was like worms but years before worms was ever thought of hehe.

Leshy · 21 Nov 2002, 06:28

Quote:

Originally posted by Gayle28uk
Don't remember that one

It was only distributed to a 3,5" disk in my possession, and my IT teacher 'back then'.

Cyp · 21 Nov 2002, 07:53

I'd recommend learning C (C++ (not really much difference)).

And since 3D games are made out of triangles nowadays, there would have to be some library that can draw triangles quickly. 10000 triangles per second should be fast enough for some things.

And, if you don't already know, I'd recommend learning how to multiply two matrixes, how to multiply a matrix by a vector (same as multiplying a matrix by a rather thin matrix), multiplication of quaternions (to do with rotation), and how to turn a quaternion into a matrix.

You would probably want to use sprites, which would be, in this case, a list of triangles in 3D space, and the colour of each triangle. And you would probably want an array of all the objects in your world, containing the type of object, x-y-z location and w-i-j-k orientation, and other relevant data about each object. If the view moves around a lot, you might want one of the objects to be a camera.

That's all I can think of right now.

But you should know that writing a 3D game, when starting with no knowledge of programming is a big project, and might take more than a week.

Miserableman · 21 Nov 2002, 08:54

Don't touch C. There is no excuse for using C these days if you don't have a beard and weren't born in the 1950's.

If I were you, I would learn to program properly, by learning Object Orientation (or as much as you can). Buy a book that covers C++ or Java with OO - I can recommend this book (yes it's expensive, if that puts you off then forget it). You can do 3D stuff in Java, but it's slow compared to C++.

Walk before you can run. Wanting to program 3D games straight away is like expecting to learn brain surgery on a 1 day first aid course. Programming is probably the most difficult thing you'll ever do. I'd estimate it will take you 3 months solid study before you are good enough to start a very simple 3D game, and another 6 months to finish it.

21 Nov 2002, 17:53

Gayle: PHP can be used for apps by using the GTK library.

Gayle29uk · 21 Nov 2002, 17:54

Quote:

Originally posted by Dudels
Gayle: PHP can be used for apps by using the GTK library.

It's amazing what I learn around here

21 Nov 2002, 17:56

That was fast!

http://gtk.php.net if you're interested, never really given it a look myself.

Supernova9 · 21 Nov 2002, 19:21

Quote:

Originally posted by Gayle28uk
Don't remember that one

But the banana thing was like worms but years before worms was ever thought of hehe.

The Apes n bananas game did indeed r0x0r a tad, but Virtual Pimp was a classic

Structural Integrity · 21 Nov 2002, 19:26

Ofcourse, it's difficult to choose a language when you're just starting to program, but none the less it's an important choice.

When you recommend someone a language you shouldn't think of what's the best language but what is the best language to bring someone in contact with programming.
1) The person shouldn't be discouraged
- the language should be easy enough so a beginner can understand it
- no difficult setups, no complex programs one has to walk through.... no walking to the store to buy a program/compiler (I hate going out-doors)
- Result must be seen. The user should quickly see what fantastic things he made!

2) The language has to be able to provide a challenge even for the more advanced programmer
- have the ability to do internet stuff
- more complex itterations
- perhaps language specific nice-nesses

3) the language must have a future
- Made programms shouldn't be redundant in a few months
- support & discussion forums about the language are always welcome

Now, I don't believe a scripting language is any good for a PROGRAMMER to start learning. The syntax is often too different and a scripting language usually has TOO MUCH of language specific functions/abilities.
I did quite a bit of mIRC scripting in my early days, and learned ASP some while ago, but I don't feel like I'm doing very usefull things with it.
mIRC script is nice to learn the structures of programming tho (the "if", "while" etc etc) but since you already have experience I don't think mIRC script would be very suitable (no offence to mIRC-scripters).

Unless you want to be a web-site programmer PHP and ASP are out of the equation too. Both are scripting languages and their syntax differs too much. (though ASP supports VisualBasic-Script)

What is left then are either C, C++ and Java and perhaps a few other languages...
I've done quite a bit of Java when I started studying computerscience, but I never felt really comfortable with it. I don't know why. Perhaps because it's so incredibly clean and smooth.
Java is VERY nice to start with though. It actually is a full programming language. Supports object-oriented programming, and is able to show results very quickly and very graphically. This is nice for a newbie since he can quickly see what he created, which works motivating.

I now do a lot of C and C++ programming and I feel quite comfortable with the language. When you know what you're doing you can do quite some fancy things with it, and when you know how to use the right libraries you can even create very graphical things with it (I started with openGL almost two weeks ago). PLUS you can work closer to the hardware and in memory.
Disadvantage is that a new programmer isn't able to create fancy, graphical things with it. A console full of text isn't quite spectacular and might discourage someone from learning further.

What I'd recommend for a complete newbie is mIRC-script first to learn the MOST BASIC aspects as loops and ifs. It shows results VERY quickly and you're not bound to compiler-specific problems.
Switch to Java AS SOON AS POSSIBLE (you don't want to waste too much time with mIRC) and learn to make graphical things with Java. You will feel that the graphical support of Java will suit one much better than a text based mIRC console.
When one feels fit one should switch to C. Since you have some (or more) experience with Java you can switch languages faster (you know the syntax) and can thus work around compiler and language specific problems faster and easier.
Switching to C++ might be difficult when you have no experience in object oriented programming, but I can certainly recommend it.

This is actually how I learned most of my languages.... I learned some concepts at school first (we started with Java) but since the method of teaching, and the things you made, were so incredibly boring, it was very discouraging.
I discovered mIRC a few years back (almost 2 I think) and started scripting about half a year after I started using mIRC. In the meanwhile my school-exercises were no more than copy-paste work.
I scripted happilly ever after and about a year ago I decided to pick up java again and made a simple game (scorched earth like, but no AI and fecked double buffering) (GAME: http://www.geocities.com/structual/turrets.html ). I learned a great deal of OO concepts like this. Altho I never finished it this was a turning point.
In the meanwhile I still mirc-scripted and learned the concepts of TCP/IP-sockets and more language specific things, like dialogs.
Then, about half a year ago, when mirc6 came out, and totally smashed the compatibility with my MP3 script (4000+ lines of mIrcscript with the most beautifull features one can imagine) (S/I MP3: http://www.geocities.com/structual/mp3.html ) I stopped scripting and went looking for something else.
I came into contact with Windows2000 server and the world of ASP pages.
I worked my way through ASP and released an open-source solution for PA (Delphi Project: http://www.geocities.com/structual/dp.html ).
I never finished it because a few months ago I started working at Fancom ( www.fancom.com ) for school (work experience etc etc) and had to work on a half finished embedded webserver in C.
This experience brought me into closer contact with C and the more difficult concept of that language: pointers, pointers to functions, buffers, structures etc etc...
About two weeks ago I was tired of C and looiing at the HEX code of TCP/IP packets and decided to do something else, so I picked up C++ again and started with OpenGL (though I still have to finish my webserver someday).
That's in short my programming experience and the route I took.

Summary:
Java (school, boring textual displays)
C (school, Console apps, boring as hell)
.... (copy-paste work)
mIRC (basic concept and better understanding of languages, learning to use HELP files)
Java (Fist REAL contact with OO programming, made the turrets game. Learned to use API's)
mIRC (made MP3 player, learned socket concepts)
ASP/HTML/CSS (created Planetarion clone "Delphi Project")
C (working on the embedded webserver. Gave me greater understanding of pointers and structures)
C++ (started OpenGL and is my current language. Learning to use Windows functions and OpenGL specific concepts)

[/my_two_cents]

mikay · 21 Nov 2002, 23:49

Erm the guy wants to get a simple programming language with no end goal in mind so where did all the 3D stuff come in?

BASIC is as good as you'll get, it's probably as good as anyone will get.

22 Nov 2002, 00:46

I've found that you really need some form of motivation.

For example, I learnt PHP 'cause a friend of mine told me to make a game after ********* went p2p.

I picked up C++ because mogrika could do it and I could not.

I did java as I wanted to play about with sockets and the like.

hyfe · 22 Nov 2002, 02:12

agree..motivitation is the clue...

if you're planning on becomming a good programmer; i'd really really recommend starting of with Java though..strong typing and oo makes it a great way to learn good programming habits.

if you're just planning on playing around..I'd choose python or maybe C

W · 22 Nov 2002, 03:37

To start out, do something which gives you fancy things easilly. Certainly if you lack the attention span for deep studying. VB, java, php, even javascript, are things to consider. If you don't want to start programming with a toy, you can go one step deeper, and code with delphi, perl, or possibly C++, all of which should be ok to learn if you stick to the basics at first. If you really want to become a poweruser and isn't afraid of spending a few months behind the computer before you get anything worthwhile done, you should go straight for assembler, then dig into the details of c and c++. If you got the stamina, it's absolutely worthwhile, a understanding of assembler will teach invaluable things about how things work that you never get a hint about using a higher level, and c/c++ is the standard of programming among the professionals.

meglamaniac · 22 Nov 2002, 11:07

As you're in windows I'm assuming you're going to want to do windows apps rather than console apps.
This means you'll want a product which supports it (normally has 'Visual' tagged at the start of its name).
However, I would not recommend starting off in C/C++. Yes they're powerful, yes you can do whizzy things with them, yes they're fast, but even building a window in Visual C++ would intimidate the hell out of someone who is new to programming - the price of being able to do the cool stuff is having a huge level of complexity and low level control.

Start off with what you know - get Visual Basic. It will introduce you to windows programming to some extent, without you having to code the windows themselves (it's all drag and drop). It will also give you a start into the world of objects orientated programming since each window is treated as an object (I'm simplifying, but what the hell).

For the future (and this means quite a way into the future) ID have released both the Quake and Quake II engines under the GPL, so they're free to download and use so long as you don't start charging for the products you make with them. I imagine the Quake III engine will be added to the list shortly after Doom III is out. See http://www.idsoftware.com/business/home/techdownloads/.
To get an idea of what you let yourself in for with C, download the full Quake II source and open some of the .c files in the zip. Thats where you need to be if you want to write your own 3D engine, or even to use someone elses.

Now for a dig at Miserableman

Stay away from C? It has it's uses. Namely the Quake III engine which no doubt you've used enough, which happens to be written in C not C++. I know this is mainly because ID decided to upgrade thier original Wolf3D engine all the way through to today, but it still shows what C can do.
Oh well, since Doom III is a re-write from scratch, that IS in C++.

Miserableman · 22 Nov 2002, 12:10

Quote:

Originally posted by meglamaniac

Now for a dig at Miserableman
Stay away from C? It has it's uses. Namely the Quake III engine which no doubt you've used enough, which happens to be written in C not C++. I know this is mainly because ID decided to upgrade thier original Wolf3D engine all the way through to today, but it still shows what C can do.
Oh well, since Doom III is a re-write from scratch, that IS in C++.

No-one would dispute C's power, but it's an obselete programming language, only used today because people with beards cba to learn how to program properly :O) There is no possible reason for learning C when you can learn C++, unless you have a lot of legacy code you have to modify.

I'm saying this whilst ordering a Win32 book, heh

MT · 22 Nov 2002, 15:05

Quote:

Originally posted by Miserableman

No-one would dispute C's power, but it's an obselete programming language, only used today because people with beards cba to learn how to program properly :O) There is no possible reason for learning C when you can learn C++, unless you have a lot of legacy code you have to modify.

I'm saying this whilst ordering a Win32 book, heh

No operating system will ever be written in C++.

If you need maximum power with maximum traceability, you use C. If you dont give a **** about traceability, you use assembler. If you dont need maximum power, you can use C++. Objects carry a large overhead ..

Structural Integrity · 22 Nov 2002, 16:14

Quote:

Originally posted by mikay
Erm the guy wants to get a simple programming language with no end goal in mind so where did all the 3D stuff come in?

I merely mentioned my route, and where I've come so far, which coincidentally happens to be in the 3D programming world.

I don't know Snaarfie, so I can't tell whether he gets exited from a console full of text, or a fancy 3D application (the latter sounds more appealing to ME).
You shouldn't choose your hobby language because everyone tells you it is a great language. You should choose your language so it can fullfill your needs and can do what you want.
That's why I stayed with mIRC script for quite a while: It suited me fine, and it could do the things I wanted it to do. From algorithms to simple Windows-dialogs.

Snaarfie, think about what you want to accomplish with your programming. Anything graphical? Algorithmic? Fast? Long lifespan? Extensive Libraries and options? Websites? Databases?
Do you want to do commercial things with your programming?
Or just for hobbying?
Answer these questions, then look at the descriptions of all languages given in this thread, and make your pick.

(I'm writing too much again)

Oh, my reply to the "C is obsolete statement": C is very much used in Embedded systems where memory is cramped and reliability and tracability is very important. Also do objects bring certain overhead with them which eats processor power. Upgrading a processor is not possible because the margin on such product is often too small to spend a little more money on a better component. Same goes for memory: you don't put 128kb in your system when 16kb is enough.
And when your C program takes up 16kb of memory and a C++ program with the same functions takes up 32kb of memory your boss will happilly tell you to use C and dump the C++.
(This C/C++ usage in the embedded world is shifting though, since components are becoming much cheaper)

Gayle29uk · 22 Nov 2002, 16:22

Until the point comes where no-one can utilise all their available memory or processor power (i.e. never) C (with linked assembler ofc) will be the daddy.

Sorry, had to say that for those who say it's dead. Run a C program and it's C++ equivalent through a profiler and you'll be absolutely horrified at overheads in both memory usage and cycle wastage.

Nodrog · 22 Nov 2002, 18:53

java or c#, preferably the latter unless you particular care about making the programs you write while learning run on lunix.

Nodrog · 22 Nov 2002, 18:55

Quote:

Originally posted by Miserableman

No-one would dispute C's power, but it's an obselete programming language

Whether its obsolete or not, its still the best way to learn how to do low level thing, without dirtying your hands on filth like asm.

inf · 22 Nov 2002, 20:02

I have to say this, just for quey:

Mz Scheme!

wakey · 23 Nov 2002, 18:47

When ever I get asked this question in RL I always hand them a Pascal book I own and a pascal compiler and set them off on this. Ok your unlikly to produce anything world class in it but it will get you started with the basic concepts that are the same for almost all programming laungages. Once they have this knowledge they are perfectly able to embark on another laungauge thats of more use such as Java or C (I personally take the view that people should know the basics of C before embarking on C++ espeically as many books and guides are written expecting you to know the basics due to C++ basically being a sub set of C)

meglamaniac · 23 Nov 2002, 19:37

Hey - don't knock pascal.
The greatest platform game for the PC ever was written in it. It doesn't look much now, but it was revolutionary when it came out - I mean incredibly smooth and fast scrolling, high resolution (for DOS anyway) fluidly animiated graphics with multiple parralax layers and colour cycling etc AND digital soundtrack and sfx (no MIDI cack here) and all that on a 486/33? Well I was impressed anyway.

The disadvantage is as it was written in an old version of turbo pascal it "Runtime Error 200"s on you when you try and run it on anything over a P200. You can fix it with TPPatch, but then that screws the sound up.

queball · 23 Nov 2002, 21:52

Quote:

Originally posted by MT

No operating system will ever be written in C++.

AtheOS?

wakey · 23 Nov 2002, 22:52

Quote:

Originally posted by meglamaniac
Hey - don't knock pascal.
The greatest platform game for the PC ever was written in it. It doesn't look much now, but it was revolutionary when it came out - I mean incredibly smooth and fast scrolling, high resolution (for DOS anyway) fluidly animiated graphics with multiple parralax layers and colour cycling etc AND digital soundtrack and sfx (no MIDI cack here) and all that on a 486/33? Well I was impressed anyway.

The disadvantage is as it was written in an old version of turbo pascal it "Runtime Error 200"s on you when you try and run it on anything over a P200. You can fix it with TPPatch, but then that screws the sound up.

I wasnt knocking Pascal at all.....you can produce great apps with it it just requires you to really take time learning everything about the launguage which most people who touch pascal arent willing to do as it not worth the time and effort you would have to invest to really get to grips with the launguage. Instead they are just after a quick intro course (like the type you get on A-Level computing courses) just to ready themselves for diving into a more commerically used launguage like C++ or java