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10 Jan 2007, 02:01
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#1
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Angry Young Man
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Mister Cacciatore's down on Sullivan Street
Posts: 7,518
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[Football] Your clubs best ever value-for-money transfer
In the interest of faggotry, only transfers when a fee was paid count, no youth players or bosmans.
Sort of interested to hear everyones point of view on their own club here.
Obviously, for me;
Team : Celtic
Player : Henrik Larsson
Cost : £650,000
Achievements : 173 goals in 218 league games, the treble, uefa cup final.
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10 Jan 2007, 03:05
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#2
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Registered Awesome Person
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,676
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Re: [Football] Your clubs best ever value-for-money transfer
Team: Arsenal
Player: Nicholas Anelka
Cost: £500 000
Sold for: £22 300 000
Achievements: 25 goals in 63 league games, played a major role in Arsenal's Double in the 1997/8 season. The sale of Anelka enabled us to build our state-of-the-art London Colney training complex, as well as buy a certain Theirry Henry.
Team: Arsenal
Player: Kolo Toure
Cost: £150 000
Achievements: One of the best centre-halves in the world. He formed an amazing partnership with Sol Campbell until the latter was sold, and now dominates alongside the younger Philippe Senderos. Able to keep up and tackle the fastest of strikers, renowned for being as fast as Theirry Henry and having a powerful leap, enabling his 5'11" frame to challenge even the taller strikers in the air.[/b]
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Finally free!
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10 Jan 2007, 03:31
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#3
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Aardvark is a funny word
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: I'm No Nino Rota
Posts: 5,923
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Re: [Football] Your clubs best ever value-for-money transfer
David Murphy is certainly a contender; consistently the best left-back in Scotland over the last three seasons and the Fans' Player of the Year the last two years and he cost us around ten grand.
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Efficiency, efficiency they say
Get to know the date and tell the time of day
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Down on darkened meetings on the Champs Élysées
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10 Jan 2007, 03:37
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#4
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.
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 3,382
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Re: [Football] Your clubs best ever value-for-money transfer
i'm stumped with spurs :p
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10 Jan 2007, 09:23
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#5
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Love's Sweet Exile
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Living on a Stair (Now Sword-less)
Posts: 2,371
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Re: [Football] Your clubs best ever value-for-money transfer
Peter Schmeichel for £500k would probably win for value/cost, but Cantona at £1.2m comes close.
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10 Jan 2007, 10:18
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#6
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Bored
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Nottm ->Shef ->Croydon ->Manc ->Durham ->Sheffield
Posts: 6,506
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Re: [Football] Your clubs best ever value-for-money transfer
Way too many to mention.
Stuart Pearce or Roy Keane both for pretty much nominal fees are probably two of the best deals ever by any club.
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10 Jan 2007, 11:42
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#7
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Evil inside
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,631
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Re: [Football] Your clubs best ever value-for-money transfer
Name: Arsene Wenger
Position: Manager
Price: Free or nominal
Results: 4 FA cups, 3 Premierships. Runners up in Champions Leauge. 4 Community Shields. Transforming english football. Making Arsenal unbeaten for 49 matches in a row, beating the old record with a mile.
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<Almeida> well i like to grow fat myself too, and when i have enough ships then i can engage in big battles
<Nantoz> Zhukov for Lord Protector!
<Jakiri> (Windows)XP was fine on release
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10 Jan 2007, 12:31
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#8
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BlueTuba
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 6,339
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Re: [Football] Your clubs best ever value-for-money transfer
Transfer fees ahahahahahahahaha
Primus free or Campbell free, which is Harry's finest rip off.
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"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life."
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10 Jan 2007, 12:49
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#9
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1up on you
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Birmingham, UK
Posts: 4,007
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Re: [Football] Your clubs best ever value-for-money transfer
Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
Making Arsenal unbeaten for 49 matches in a row, beating the old record with a mile.
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Cloughie was a better a manager.
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pig
[ 1u p]
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10 Jan 2007, 12:51
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#10
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Bored
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Nottm ->Shef ->Croydon ->Manc ->Durham ->Sheffield
Posts: 6,506
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Re: [Football] Your clubs best ever value-for-money transfer
Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
Cloughie was a better a manager.
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10 Jan 2007, 13:04
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#11
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Mr. Blobby
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Belgium
Posts: 8,271
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Re: [Football] Your clubs best ever value-for-money transfer
Team: Ajax
Player: Christian Chivu
Cost: € 1,8m
Achievements: Despite picking up red cards in his first matches like they were candy, grew out to be a world-class center back who led Ajax' last line incredibly well and is likely the best defender we've had in the last decade. Was sold to AS Roma for € 18m.
Team: Ajax
Player: Jari Litmanen
Cost: No clue, but probably not a lot since he came from MyPa'47
Achievements: Became Ajax' best player in the last many years. He is still Ajax' all-time top scorer in European matches, and his high amount of goals in the Champions Leagues of 94-95 and 95-96 (respectively 6 and 9 goals) directly contributed to Ajax' win and finalist place in these seasons. Scored an overall of 91 goals in 159 appearances for Ajax.
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10 Jan 2007, 13:29
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#12
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For Crowly <3
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Luton, England
Posts: 1,391
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Re: [Football] Your clubs best ever value-for-money transfer
Team : Luton Town
Player : Steve Howard
Cost : £75,000 [£50,000 + £25,000 for avoiding relegation
First season he got 24 goals [including 19 in 19 games], winning Division 3 golden boot, next season put away 23 goals and was one of our most decent signings ever, in total in 200+ appearances he got 96 goals. For some reason we flogged him off to Derby but we got £1 million for him, nice profit. Agressive too
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[14:53:26] * Keiz`afk has joined #support
[14:53:36] <Keiz`afk> THE SMUDGE CHEERLEADING TEAM HAS ARRIVED
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10 Jan 2007, 13:58
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#13
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The Twilight of the Gods
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 23,481
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Re: [Football] Your clubs best ever value-for-money transfer
Team: Sunderland
Player: Kevin Phillips
Cost: £350,000
115 goals in a shade over 200 appearances, the first man since Brian Clough to score 30 goals for us in a league season. Scored the goals to fire us to a then record 105 points in the then First Division, and the only Englishman to win the European Golden Boot.
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10 Jan 2007, 16:27
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#14
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break it down!
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,087
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Re: [Football] Your clubs best ever value-for-money transfer
Team: Chelsea
Player: Gustavo Poyet
Cost: Free
49 goals in 145 appearances as well as making quite a big contribution to the overall game of the Chelsea team.
Team: Chelsea
Player: Gianfranco Zola
Price: £4.5million
It sounds quite pricey, especially due to his age, but he was asensational player - He only scored 80 goals from 312 games but he was the main playmaker and was voted the best Chelsea player of all time.
His free kicks were also amazing, they were on par with, if not better than, David Beckham's at the time.
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I put the sex in dyslexia!
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10 Jan 2007, 19:22
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#15
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: London
Posts: 3,347
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Re: [Football] Your clubs best ever value-for-money transfer
Quote:
Originally Posted by _Kila_
Team: Chelsea
Player: Gustavo Poyet
Cost: Free
49 goals in 145 appearances as well as making quite a big contribution to the overall game of the Chelsea team.
Team: Chelsea
Player: Gianfranco Zola
Price: £4.5million
It sounds quite pricey, especially due to his age, but he was asensational player - He only scored 80 goals from 312 games but he was the main playmaker and was voted the best Chelsea player of all time.
His free kicks were also amazing, they were on par with, if not better than, David Beckham's at the time.
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I would have to agree.
__________________
The 20th century has been characterised by three developments of great political importance. The growth of democracy; the growth of corporate power; and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy.
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11 Jan 2007, 00:59
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#16
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Lucky
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: -
Posts: 3,830
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Re: [Football] Your clubs best ever value-for-money transfer
there are quite a few others to mention here, but i won't go any deeper than the 80's. ok here goes:
Team: FC Twente
Player: Manuel Sanchez Torres
Cost: ?
one of the most loved players and by far the best rightwinger we ever had. smart, very technical, Spanish temperament. one with fans on the old Q-stand. he was told that he could become a player of the Dutch national team if he'd change nationality, but he didn't do it. Real Madrid wanted to pay 1 million guilders for him, but Twente didn't let him go. he went to Valencia after a few years, but had to play his first match with a heavy injury then. things got worse and he never returned on his old level. he's now living in Twente again.
Team: FC Twente
Player: Hans Meyer (trainer)
Cost: Free
one of the best and most witty trainers we had. after the misery of the 80's, Hans Meyer gave us a new years of glory. we ended in the top of the league a few years in a row and played UEFA cup frequently (and did well there). he once spoke the legendary words "ich bin ein tukker". this week he also visited Twente's trainingcamp in Spain (he left the club in 1999...).
Team: FC Twente
Player: Blaise N'Kufo
Cost: rented at first, then bought
a legend that is still playing for us. after a few strikers that failed miserably in replacing the Vennegoor of Hesselink/Bosman tandem, he turned out to be the missing link. atm he's ranked 2nd in the topscorerslist, with 16 goals in 20 matches. he's incredibly smart and strong. in fact i don't believe i ever saw him lose a ball when he had it on his foot. Twente was his 11th (!) club in 10 years, but now he's with us for 4 seasons, and not planning to leave. the coolest thing i ever saw him do was in a cupmatch against NAC: it was 0-0 and we needed a goal. N'Kufo was injured, but brought in to get us one. after 5 minutes he already scored. directly after this, the trainer replaced him again. the whole stadium pissed themselves laughing.
more info here.
Last edited by KoeN; 11 Jan 2007 at 22:14.
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11 Jan 2007, 03:34
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#17
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Banned
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Further to the right
Posts: 19,441
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Re: [Football] Your clubs best ever value-for-money transfer
How come everyone else can see fit to elaborate slightly on their choices in the thread but instead from our resident shit dutch poster we get a link to a ****ING WIKIPEDIA ENTRY. Oh wait right, resident shit dutch poster, i geddit.
__________________
Some might ask what good is life without purpose but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
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11 Jan 2007, 04:54
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#18
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 227
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Re: [Football] Your clubs best ever value-for-money transfer
Everton
Tim Cahill
Price - Not sure, 1.75mill gbp i think
Everton rely on him heavily
Price Now - Probs 9-12mill
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11 Jan 2007, 04:54
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#19
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 227
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Re: [Football] Your clubs best ever value-for-money transfer
Everton
Wayne Rooney
Price - Came through youth - free
Price paid by United = 18million
Price Now? = 30mill+
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11 Jan 2007, 05:55
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#20
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Back from timeout.
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 901
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Re: [Football] Your clubs best ever value-for-money transfer
Dallas Cowboys: Terrell Owens.
Hey, you said football.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Marilyn Manson
You'll have to prise my penis from my cold, dead hand!
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Quote:
Originally posted by Yahwe
Gay ducks only do it because it impresses their peers.
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11 Jan 2007, 09:59
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#21
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1up on you
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Birmingham, UK
Posts: 4,007
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Re: [Football] Your clubs best ever value-for-money transfer
Quote:
Originally Posted by .Disc.
Everton
Wayne Rooney
Price - Came through youth - free
Price paid by United = 18million
Price Now? = 30mill+
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deffeh
In the interest of faggotry, only transfers when a fee was paid count, no youth players or bosmans.
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pig
[ 1u p]
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11 Jan 2007, 10:16
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#22
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The Original Carebear
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Trondheim, Norway
Posts: 1,048
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Re: [Football] Your clubs best ever value-for-money transfer
Team : Newcastle
Manager : Kevin Keegan
Cost : Not sure.
Achievements : Saved the spot in the then second division in his first match, promoted next season, paid the assistant managers (Terry McDermott) wage out of his own pocket, brought Newcastle back to Premier League, finishing third in the first season. Finished second in 96, before resigning during 96/97 season.
Team : Newcastle
Player : Andy Cole
Cost : £1 750 000
Achievements : 12 goals in as many matches in his first season, another 32 goals in 40 matches in his first premier league season. Was sold to Manchester United for £6.5 million (and Keith Gillespie in exchange) the following season.
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If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. No use being a damn fool about it.
Oh crap, I might be back. I should take my own advice.
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11 Jan 2007, 13:36
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#23
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1up on you
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Birmingham, UK
Posts: 4,007
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Re: [Football] Your clubs best ever value-for-money transfer
Is it true Keegan was caught in a car with a rent boy?
Hence his demise from the game.
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pig
[ 1u p]
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11 Jan 2007, 13:44
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#24
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: London
Posts: 3,347
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Re: [Football] Your clubs best ever value-for-money transfer
Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
Is it true Keegan was caught in a car with a rent boy?
Hence his demise from the game.
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It would have been less embarassing.
__________________
The 20th century has been characterised by three developments of great political importance. The growth of democracy; the growth of corporate power; and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy.
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11 Jan 2007, 14:18
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#25
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The Original Carebear
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Trondheim, Norway
Posts: 1,048
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Re: [Football] Your clubs best ever value-for-money transfer
I have no idea. He gave a lot to Newcastle, which is why I listed him. I don't know anything about his private life.
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If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. No use being a damn fool about it.
Oh crap, I might be back. I should take my own advice.
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11 Jan 2007, 18:09
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#26
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Noruega
Posts: 2,999
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Re: [Football] Your clubs best ever value-for-money transfer
Im not sure ho much Villa paid the first time Dwight Yorke joined us but surely he was a fantastic buy.
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"Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of War"
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11 Jan 2007, 18:31
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#27
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For Crowly <3
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Luton, England
Posts: 1,391
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Re: [Football] Your clubs best ever value-for-money transfer
Afaik he was signed by Villa after impressing in a match in the West Indies vs Villa on a tour and was sold to Man Utd for £12.6mil
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[14:53:26] * Keiz`afk has joined #support
[14:53:36] <Keiz`afk> THE SMUDGE CHEERLEADING TEAM HAS ARRIVED
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11 Jan 2007, 20:08
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#28
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break it down!
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,087
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Re: [Football] Your clubs best ever value-for-money transfer
Quote:
Originally Posted by isildurx
Im not sure ho much Villa paid the first time Dwight Yorke joined us but surely he was a fantastic buy.
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"Yorke appeared in a team that played a friendly match against Aston Villa, Taylor was impressed and offered Yorke a trial at Villa."
Looks like he joined for free.
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwight_Yorke)
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I put the sex in dyslexia!
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11 Jan 2007, 20:34
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#29
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For Crowly <3
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Luton, England
Posts: 1,391
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Re: [Football] Your clubs best ever value-for-money transfer
Quote:
Originally Posted by KoeN
Random dutch football team rubbish
more info here.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Kila_
"Yorke appeared in a team that played a friendly match against Aston Villa, Taylor was impressed and offered Yorke a trial at Villa."
Looks like he joined for free.
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwight_Yorke)
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KoeN's got a wikipedia friend!
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[14:53:26] * Keiz`afk has joined #support
[14:53:36] <Keiz`afk> THE SMUDGE CHEERLEADING TEAM HAS ARRIVED
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11 Jan 2007, 20:39
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#30
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Lucky
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: -
Posts: 3,830
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Re: [Football] Your clubs best ever value-for-money transfer
as if you people watch dutch football. i cba typing whole stories here about people you don't even know to begin with.
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11 Jan 2007, 20:50
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#31
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Lucky
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: -
Posts: 3,830
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Re: [Football] Your clubs best ever value-for-money transfer
Quote:
Originally Posted by QazokRouge5
Dallas Cowboys: Terrell Owens.
Hey, you said football.
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so stay out.
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11 Jan 2007, 20:59
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#32
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Banned
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Further to the right
Posts: 19,441
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Re: [Football] Your clubs best ever value-for-money transfer
Quote:
Originally Posted by KoeN
as if you people watch dutch football. i cba typing whole stories here about people you don't even know to begin with.
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Why the hell did you post anything then
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Some might ask what good is life without purpose but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
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11 Jan 2007, 21:06
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#33
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Registered Awesome Person
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,676
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Re: [Football] Your clubs best ever value-for-money transfer
Quote:
Originally Posted by KoeN
as if you people watch dutch football. i cba typing whole stories here about people you don't even know to begin with.
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I wouldn't say that that doesn't mean that there's no point in you telling us about them. Phang, Leshy and Smudge all managed it, why can't you?
The summary of each player is about what that player did for the club, and any football fan should be able to appreciate that on some level. I've never head of Steve Howard (Smudge's example) but I can appreciate his superb contribution to the club and the amount of money that he was later sold for.
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Finally free!
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11 Jan 2007, 22:14
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#34
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Lucky
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: -
Posts: 3,830
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Re: [Football] Your clubs best ever value-for-money transfer
ok, i edited it all. have fun reading.
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11 Jan 2007, 23:12
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#35
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The Twilight of the Gods
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 23,481
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Re: [Football] Your clubs best ever value-for-money transfer
Quote:
Originally Posted by KoeN
ok, i edited it all. have fun reading.
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I actually read your post this time!
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11 Jan 2007, 23:35
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#36
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Up The Hatters!
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Kenilworth Road
Posts: 3,012
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Re: [Football] Your clubs best ever value-for-money transfer
Team:Luton Town
Player:Rowan Vine
Cost:£250000
Sold:£2,5mill plus 500k more if Birmingham gets promotion.
Achievements Lots of yellow cards plus 33 goals over three seasons
Good sale for us, money in the bag etc.
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Planetarion veteran
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12 Jan 2007, 01:42
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#37
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BlueTuba
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 6,339
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Re: [Football] Your clubs best ever value-for-money transfer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Team:Luton Town
Player:Rowan Vine
Cost:£250000
Sold:£2,5mill plus 500k more if Birmingham gets promotion.
Achievements Lots of yellow cards plus 33 goals over three seasons
Good sale for us, money in the bag etc.
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Absolutely chuffed to bits for the lad. Good to see a kid from our ranks get some games and someone make some money for him. Well done Luton, reward for persistence and mugging Steve Bruce .
Going the other way Taylor for £750k was an absolute bargain. He has brought new levels to getting stuck in that lad.
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"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life."
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12 Jan 2007, 01:43
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#38
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break it down!
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,087
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Re: [Football] Your clubs best ever value-for-money transfer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smudge
KoeN's got a wikipedia friend!
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KoeN linked to Wikipedia and said "read about them here" - I was merely citing my quotation.
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I put the sex in dyslexia!
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12 Jan 2007, 04:06
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#39
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Up The Hatters!
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Kenilworth Road
Posts: 3,012
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Re: [Football] Your clubs best ever value-for-money transfer
Luton have sold players for 9million pounds the last 18 months and bought players for about 1 million pound. Makes you wonder where all our money has gone.
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Planetarion veteran
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12 Jan 2007, 11:27
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#40
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: London
Posts: 3,347
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Re: [Football] Your clubs best ever value-for-money transfer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Luton have sold players for 9million pounds the last 18 months and bought players for about 1 million pound. Makes you wonder where all our money has gone.
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On debts?
__________________
The 20th century has been characterised by three developments of great political importance. The growth of democracy; the growth of corporate power; and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy.
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12 Jan 2007, 12:37
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#41
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1up on you
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Birmingham, UK
Posts: 4,007
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Re: [Football] Your clubs best ever value-for-money transfer
Team: Aston Villa
Player: Dwight Yorke
Cost: £120,000
Sold: £12,600,000 (to man yew)
Achievements: For Aston Villa 232 Appearances and 73 goals, Utd 95 appearances and 47 goals
A good player for us and manure, ashame the way he left but **** it we got close to 13 million for him, and we paid 1% of that to get him!
Team: Aston Villa
Player: David Platt
Cost: £200,00
Sold: £5,500,000 (to bari)
Achievements: For villa, 121 appearances, 50 goals and England 62 appearances and 27 goals. Just a god damn good player.
I remember watching this guy when I was a kid, growing up watching football and I loved him. Apparently when he went to Bari I was in tears and really upset. My dads mate who was a journo with the Evening Mail in brum flew to Bari to interview him for the paper. He told platt about me and so he recorded a video saying that he still has Villa at heart and will be back soon and he is glad he has such loyal fans like me (Simon) he actually said that. I am not sure where the video is, after moving quite a lot it may be in the archives somewhere. But it was just a little homemade piece not long but made me really happy apparently.
Anyway two great players that I adored as a kid.
Finally
Team: Aston Villa
Player: God or as some know him Paul McGrath
Cost: £400,000
Achievements: 252 appearences for villa and most were probably pissed with a kippy knee. Best Centre Half I have ever had the pleasure of watching. Truly a great player. I also met him once, it was brief. But I touched God with my hand (his hand touched mine too, not in a sexual way! Although I so would, probably, its god.)
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pig
[ 1u p]
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12 Jan 2007, 12:41
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#42
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Banned
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Further to the right
Posts: 19,441
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Re: [Football] Your clubs best ever value-for-money transfer
Paul McGrath would have still been a great footballer even if he didn't have knees.
__________________
Some might ask what good is life without purpose but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
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16 Jan 2007, 02:59
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#43
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:cool:
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Here, there and everywhere
Posts: 791
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Re: [Football] Your clubs best ever value-for-money transfer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Luton have sold players for 9million pounds the last 18 months and bought players for about 1 million pound. Makes you wonder where all our money has gone.
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"Speaking of the sales, Newell said, "I can understand the frustrations of the fans at us selling Viney and Edwards, but at the end of the day I'm managing a football club that hasn't got a ground, hasn't got a training ground, doesn't own anything and needs to pay wages to players so it can survive in the Championship."
I think that pretty much sums it up. Hopefully in the long term things will start to look up after we get a proper stadium built....
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Danger gleams like sunshine to a brave man's eyes.
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16 Jan 2007, 08:16
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#44
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Infrequent
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 186
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Re: [Football] Your clubs best ever value-for-money transfer
Team: Newcastle United
Player: Jackie Milburn
Cost: Free
Achievements: 200 goals in 395 games for Newcastle. 10 goals in 13 games for England.
Legend.
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S.H.I.T
Self Harm In Tyneside
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16 Jan 2007, 21:55
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#45
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 4,944
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Re: [Football] Your clubs best ever value-for-money transfer
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome
i'm stumped with spurs
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Sticking to recent (Prem) years only I'd say the following are contenders:
Sheringham
Klinsmann
Ginola
Robinson
Keane (we apparently only paid £3 million after various clauses with Leeds but I've never seen this officially confirmed).
Lennon (just £1 million!)
Carrick
Basically all our best players were cheap :P
Lennon has the potential but it could also go really wrong for him with all the hype around.
__________________
I find it kind of funny
I find it kind of sad
The dreams in which i'm dying
Are the best i've ever had
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16 Jan 2007, 22:06
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#46
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.
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 3,382
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Re: [Football] Your clubs best ever value-for-money transfer
i'm not too sure i'd consider a one season person in a value for money thread..(klinsmann) sheringham and carrick are good points
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