[football] Eng V T&T

[milo]

Apart from ensuring Dwight Yorke doesn't produce any more retards we've done **** all. In the final 20yrds we've got the penetrative ability of steven hawking on prozac. I lolled at crouch's miss, his lanky legs couldn't get into position in time and he knocked out someone in the far corner of the stadium.

[Marv]

England are shit.

I'm English and my national team is "worse than Paraguay" according to the commentators on the radio :s

[Marv]

Well that goal took long enough

[Androme]

Originally Posted by Marv

England are shit.

2 balls (in) say otherwise!

[Apothos]

A win's a win.

[The_Tyrant]

was pretty shit, shame lampard kept going forward and stevie g just staying back. Think he would have got 3 tonight in lampards place.

[milo]

Originally Posted by Androme2

2 balls (in) say otherwise!

erm no this was against Trinidad and Tobago, england were beyond shit in the first half, i honestly think owen is still better than the giraffe, especially after the number of chances he had, owen did contribute in the first half, rooney was good but lennon was the one who made the real impact.


edit: but the beckham cross and gerrard goal should help my fantasy league \o/

[Proxi]

Same, I had stevie G, and I was about to sell him too. Oh the shame.

Edit: He's actually only in my OTHER fantasy league team. Tears for me

[wu_trax]

yes, that Lennon-guy looked pretty good. I never heared of him before. Crouch at least tried (and in the end suceeded), which is more than you can say about most of others.

[sjn]

The substitutions made all the difference.

Aaron Lennon, wow that kid has got pace & what an impact he had and Gerrards' goal!

Here's hoping Gerrard is back on top form coz he is a match winner.

Up until Crouchs goal however i was none to impressed :/

p.s i have Gerrard and Terry in my fantasy football side

[pig]

boring

boring

boring

england

I wish T & T won, they deserved it, we were shit.

[furball]

I had Terry (clean sheet, possible key contribution for clearing that ball off the line), Gerrard (goal, clean sheet) and Crouch (goal) in my fantasy team. So some good pointage today.

As for England themselves, we need to see how they do against a team that doesn't play so damn deep - as if we're going to give Owen any balls in behind the defence when the keeper's close enough to grab them if we try. Sweden will make or break our chances of winning the WC.

[Phalon]

Ironically if Sweden draw with Paraguay we've won our group without playing anything better than schoolboy football.

God i hope we improve, fast.

[milo]

Originally Posted by furball

I had Terry (clean sheet, possible key contribution for clearing that ball off the line), Gerrard (goal, clean sheet) and Crouch (goal) in my fantasy team. So some good pointage today.

i thought there was a limit of two players from every team?

[pig]

well the problem is t & t just played two lines of 4 at the back, unfortunately we had no england players with the brain or vision to take it on the wings to the corner and cross it (that was until lennon came on)

I personally feel if we get germany or spain we will dick over them, teams that just defend and dont do much else we struggle against (much like brazil struggling against croatia and germany against poland)

[Cannon_Fodder]

Glad we won, hope T & T qualify second after us though.

Shockingly Sven made substitutions that improved a game for once.

Best moment of the match: Joe Cole coming off so I could go 5 minutes watching the game without seeing him cutting inside, running parallel to the goal line 30 yards out, then give up being harassed and try a shot which was blocked and gave the ball away. Thank ****.

[ChubbyChecker]

I only watched the second half (damned work) but I thought we played well. We just kept pushing them and pushing them and it was only a matter of time until we'd break them. Much better than some of England's second half efforts,

[furball]

Originally Posted by milo

i thought there was a limit of two players from every team?

Sorry, my mistake. I also play the Telegraph fantasy football, which is unlimited. My Metro team had Terry and Gerrard ftw.

[KoeN]

another FANTASTIC match by England!

[Ste]

we looked almost as good as HOLLAND against SERBIA

[SilverSmoke]

That doesn't really make sense Ste.


Crap that Rooney didn't score, I've got a bet on him becoming the WC topscorer

[Ste]

Originally Posted by SilverSmoke

That doesn't really make sense Ste.

it was aimed at KoeN.

anyway, i thought we looked pretty good - we created more than enough chances and just didn't put them away.
Then scored two goals in the last 10 mins.
Did the job for me. We're through to the second round to play Germany or Ecuador. The result against Sweden doesn't really matter, either 2nd round opponent will be about the same difficulty.

but hey, "lol england r shit" if you want

[bwtmc]

It's fitting that the England captain went on about the two great substitutions and didn't mention the third.

I really hope we stop wasting a sub on Downing.

[lokken]

The problem I have with England are these things:

1) They don't appear to want to get 'stuck in'. Getting 'stuck in' is a bit different to effort, but I'm sure people will know what I mean. Had england got stuck in, we wouldn't have need to pay T&T the compliment of bringing on wayne.

2) They're absolutely terrible to watch

3) I'm sorry, it's impossible to like Terry or Lampard and quite a few others who piss you off week in week out. Was anyone else amused when JT got done for a shirt pull when he gets away with it in the prem week in week out?

However, I think Dave Beckham is pretty much back to his best, his crosses were dangerous all game and they were just crying to be put away at times. In recent years he's looked a bit as if he was trying to be better than he can ever be, but he's gone back to what he does best and boy does he do it well. Because of this (in spite of Sven) England are always gonna be a threat cos his delivery is top notch.

At least it's only England, the world cup is a bit of fun for me as a club football fan and that aside there have been some great games elsewhere to watch as a neutral where I haven't had to worry about the impending doom of relegation week in week out.

Like how Brazil can play shit and be contenders yet if England do it people go still shit then. For a few teams, the world cup hasn't started yet. Like it or not, we're cruising our group.

[furball]

I totally agree with your final sentiment on being able to watch neutral games. South Korea v Togo was superb, Germany v Poland was as passionate as any game I've seen (especially in the last 10 minutes), while Australia v Japan saw a great comeback by the Aussies against a skillful Japan. Tunisia v Saudi Arabia wasn't bad at all, and probably the only really bad game I've tried to sit through so far was France v Switzerland.

[Deffeh]

So who would guess what the lineup is for the next game?

So many factors

1. Is rooney ready?
2. Do england really WANT to win their group?
3. How many players are going to be rested - what key players?
4. Does Sven have the nuts to drop owen?
5. Was Sven happy with carragher at RB - defensively solid but lacking in offence?
6. Has aaron lennon done enough to force himself into the team?
7. Does sven have the nuts to drop lampard for being shit and play carrick?

[Phang]

4.does he have the nuts to drop anyone?
5. when neville is fit..is ferdinand really better than carragher?
6. can lennon play on the left?
6a. can beckham play holding mid?
7. can carrick perform at this level?

[Androme]

when does theodore willcott get to play?

[eSc0]

t&t arent really that good skillwise, from watching their game against england they drop their entire team to defense and then use 2/3/4 players to attack the few times they had. Ofc the few times they did have the ball they were decent. Problem for t/t is their inability to capitalize on their chances at offense.
Enlgand on the other hand need to stop being lazy and pick up their game. im sure its hot but when your going after a championship especially the world cup then it should motivate yourself to do anything at anytime in the game. they were extremely dangerous when they finally realized the game was about to end and it was still 0-0 against t/t

[Phalon]

Credit where credit is due and tactically (defensively at least) T&T were superb.

Beenhakker (lolz) knew they were only ever going to get a draw at best and he went all out for it.

It may not have been pretty, it was ****ing frustrating to watch, but it nearly worked.

[milo]

Originally Posted by Phang

6a. can beckham play holding mid?

no he can't and i sincerely hope the mother****er isn't picked at the next european championships or world cup, hes actually holding the team back. On Adrain whatshisnames MOTD program last night they showed beckham didn't go down the right wing as hes meant to instead he faffed around in a rCMish position that basically overlapped with lampard/gerrard's roles. He wants to be the engine when we've already got two much much better players for that, as soon as lennon came on he charged down the flanks.

Adrian then asked Strachan about having gerrard/lampard with a holding midfielder behind them and perhaps J.cole in a diamond upfront (linking with rooney, as two play makers), and strachan's reply was 'well where do you put your captain then' which made me want to throw the tv outside, it summed up the beckham problem, noone has the balls to drop the bastard.

If we aren't going to play with width and hes just going to **** about reshape the team to go down the middle or get rid of him and bring on someone willing to do that job.

[Phalon]

Beckham is frustrating in that he doesn't stick to the right wing, but even so, when he does he creates chances.

Beckham is the best in the world at delivering the ball onto a six-pence from 40+ yards. He can **** off for 20 mins for a wank if he wants, we need him.

He's the only reason we have 6 points in our group and not 2.

[SOL]

apart from the goal line clearance (which hit about 3 peoples head at the same time) we controlled T&T easy,we had plenty of chances which of course we didnt take till the last few mins,but on another day whos saying we wouldnt have scored??

on the note that england are shit i believe weve won 8 games in a row (including argentina) and the last 3/4 were without rooney..........

im not saying england have been brilliant,but were grounding out results and at the end of the day we keep winning and thats all that counts

[KoeN]

Originally Posted by furball

South Korea v Togo was superb

i fell asleep watching that match.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by lokken

However, I think Dave Beckham is pretty much back to his best, his crosses were dangerous all game

I thought Beckham was awful. Hardly any of his crosses or free kicks cleared the first man, and most of the ones that did sailed over everyone's heads. Beckham's balls into the box today were atrocious.

[KoeN]

but he has a cool haircut.

[furball]

Originally Posted by furball

South Korea v Togo was superb

Originally Posted by KoeN

i fell asleep watching that match.

Well, I was watching it while playing pool at a snooker club - and it was certainly fun to keep an eye on while not playing. We were all rooting for South Korea after some of the challenges from the Togo players (Essien-esque). South Korea were pretty good on the ball and technically out-classed Togo.

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

I thought Beckham was awful. Hardly any of his crosses or free kicks cleared the first man, and most of the ones that did sailed over everyone's heads. Beckham's balls into the box today were atrocious.

I agree, but he should remain in the team for his ability to get it right when it really counts. He was deadly against Paraguay.

[Ste]

it's cool to hate Beckham though

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by Ste

it's cool to hate Beckham though

David Beckham has played some fine football recently and deserves his place in the starting line-up, it's just his delivery was terrible yesterday.

Unless you think "not clearing the first man" counts as a dangerous cross.

[lokken]

One might think '11 men behind the ball' might be a factor.

Despite being awful dave created 3 or 4 chances, so if he has a 'good game' where teams are less defensive, he's bound to create more.

While i could take potshots at Sven all day, the fact is its down to the players to win in spite of him and I think we've got a chance against any team, it's just going to take a bit of luck or a massive level of improvement for us to have any chance later on.

It doesn't really matter where we end in the group. Both Ecuador and Germany are dangerous.

[Ste]

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

David Beckham has played some fine football recently and deserves his place in the starting line-up, it's just his delivery was terrible yesterday.

Unless you think "not clearing the first man" counts as a dangerous cross.

I didn't say that did I?

Beckham may not have been 'deadly' yesterday but he certainly wasn't awful as you said let alone as bad as Milo was making out.

There was a guy wandering around the pub yesterday shouting about how shit Crouch is and how he should be shot to put everyone out of their misery. I couldn't find him after the final whistle.

Crouch may not have had the best game but again he's certainly deserved his place in the side recently.

And was Owen really that bad? He tends to do that in most matches, dissappoear for half the game and just pop up and score.

[MrL_JaKiri]

With Owen, whilst you may not see much of him on the ball at any time, there's a distinct difference between a fit, on form Owen and an out of sorts Owen. First touch, the amount of running of the ball, that kind of thing.

As a striker, Owen needs a good first touch and to run off the ball to actually be able to score because he doesn't have the strength or skill to beat defenders on an equal footing.

[KoeN]

Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue

My theory is that because we are so strong attacking...

1-0 against Paraguay (own goal)

2-0 against Trinidad &Tobago (first goal after 84 mins)





(ot did you mean it as in: "always attacking"?)

[jerome]

read the rest of his post

[Deffeh]

The point i was making about carragher is intertwined with the beckham question too. Carragher was in effect being forced to play as an out and out right WINGER because of beckham's indiscipline in sticking to the right wing.

I have all the time in the world for Carra but he's not a particularly effective right winger, lets put it that way. He can play Center half, full back (if he has someone competent ahead of him) or defensive midfield. Unfortunately the way beckham was dropping too deep or into the center, his attacking frailties were shown. Lets face it, in carragher we're talking about someone whos scored more own goals than goals in his career.

Therefore dropping beckham to right back may be an idea. It would allow beckham a little more room to play the 50 yard ball he loves, england have no problems defending that flank as it is, as full back is as "low risk" a position as you can have. It also keeps beckham in the team for set pieces - corners and free kicks, so he can deliver - because hes still the best crosser of the ball in the world, despite his poor showing yesterday. Lennon can be put to right wing and england might actually have a little bit of drive and attacking nous.

Another point is that i thought england were horribly lopsided yesterday. Joe cole didnt have a great game, but a lot of this was because ashley cole did **** all to support him. One of the main reasons carra was so noticeably bad when attacking was because england only ever managed to create any space on the right hand side of the park - carra was playing right back and got up field, why couldnt ashley cole do the same from left back?

Re Gerr/Lamp. I think they can play together in the "one stays one goes" pattern but at the moment its not working - why? Because any time lampard goes he does **** all but hit it over the bar. Gerrard is being forced to stay too often (and doing a good job - have you seen anyone run through england yet?) - but gerrard is at his best when he's allowed to "do his thang" - he's shown with 2 won free kicks and an excellent goal that when he's allowed to charge forward hes an amazing player - no one doubts that. Therefore i would drop lampard and play carrick or carra or hargreaves or even becks in the holding role and let gerrard play more of an attacking role. Lampard has been out of form for a long long time now and he's detrimental to gerrard, and therefore england.

Upfront, it has to be Crouch / Rooney. Crouch provides so much to a team - seriously, actually watch him rather than the highlights packages - he brings so many players into the attacks, goal scoring is low down on his list of attributes but its also not his #1 job.

Owen cant hide behind all this lack of fitness or lack of confidence shit, seriously. Look at his interviews, hes an arrogant little prick, its certainly not a lack of confidence. He thinks he only missed one chance yesterday for example. He doesnt add anything to a team except goals - and if hes not scoring, then hes not contributing.

[Ste]

I was quite impressed that Sven changed to a 3-5-2.
Perhaps this would be an answer?

Carragher Terry and Ferdinand would be a FANTASTIC back 3.
Beckham Gerrard And Lampard in the centre
Lennon and J. Cole on the wings.

Or Downing on the left or Carrick in the Centre.
At least we have OPTIONS now.
Noone can criticise Eriksson for his substitutions last night. Except Alex Ferguson maybe.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Deffeh

Because any time lampard goes he does **** all but hit it over the bar. Gerrard is being forced to stay too often (and doing a good job - have you seen anyone run through england yet?)

I'm not sure dude but I don't think you've come up against anyone with the quality to run at teams yet. And it's not like gerrard is short on the thirty yard shots that sail over the crossbar. To be honest they look like two thick ****s in the middle of the park who have less clue about tactics than a dead mongoose.

Also england had 25 shots yesterday, from which they managed two goals. Do you really think even ecuador will allow twenty five shots?

[lokken]

If i was a manager and saw beckham at right back, i'd stick a wide striker on (someone who is like boamorte or lua lua for example) and play 4-4-1-1 and treble up on the England right and get behind them. You can't start with that formation. Fact is you need a right back who is gonna run beyond beckham - we have Gary Neville who has been highly effective doing this. Carragher is just not up to this, he is a central defender who is in the squad who can be 'competent' at other positions if we need him, just like Hargreaves.

As for missed shots only 7 shots were of note as most were speculative and outside the area as T&T to their credit stuck 11 men behind the ball. People say what about when England face a better team but they forget against better teams they will have more men forward and there will be more space, so there is hope for England yet. 3-5-2 is not possible for England as a serious formation as our only proper right wing back (or at least a winger who can tackle and has pace and the engine to do it) was bought up by Chelsea to sit in their reserves so no other club could get him.

England are stuck with 4-4-2 and any 3-5-2 with Lennon is a last resort because he's not equipped to do it. As for midfield, ever since Ledley King was injured, we've been ****ed because in qualifying he was our best player by a country mile.

England probably won't win the world cup, but to suggest they stink just because they have the second most negative manager in the history of football (behind Howard Wilkinson) isn't particularly fair, because we've qualified out of our group with relative ease compared to some teams, which means we'll have more in the tank for the rest of the WC. The rest of our games aren't mid afternoon and they won't be against teams that give no space, so it's far too early to judge them, like it's far too early to judge Brazil on winning 1-0 in one of the worst games of the tournament.

[ceres]

Does Lokken get some sort of minus 10000 rep points for mentioning Owen Hargreaves and competent in the same sentance?

MrL was spot on, Beckham was dire, his one job is to delivery good balls into the box. He failed 99% of the time, and there isnt a hope in hell a decent team is going to give him enough chances to get it right in the knockout stage!

Bye bye Beckham, ola Lennon!
________
VOLCANO VAPORIZER

[Deffeh]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

I'm not sure dude but I don't think you've come up against anyone with the quality to run at teams yet. And it's not like gerrard is short on the thirty yard shots that sail over the crossbar. To be honest they look like two thick ****s in the middle of the park who have less clue about tactics than a dead mongoose.

Also england had 25 shots yesterday, from which they managed two goals. Do you really think even ecuador will allow twenty five shots?

Wait stop, i'm scottish, and just an "interested analyser". I support the england players that i like (the liverpool and tottenham ones ), not the team.

Yeah, gerrards missed a few from 30 yards but he's also scored one, and hasnt had the same shooting chances inside the box that wank lampard has. Also he has more to his game than lampard does and something needs to change in the middle of hte park for england