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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 22:31   #101
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

But dammit think of the poor birdies!
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 22:35   #102
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

to sidestep the original topic of this thread just a little, all those who keep talking about the uncertainty of global warming and keep bad mouthing renewable energy resources I ask you to consider this.

Even if Global Warming does not exist we have to start moving awa from fossil fuels. In the next hundred years or so (if we're lucky) FF will start running out and then we will be truely ****ed if we've not already converted.

With the continuing emergence of China and India as rivals for these resources, guzzling as much oil as they can get their hands on it's going to run out even sooner.

Now, we could push our luck and keep using them until the very last resource runs out or we can begin the transition now and maintain a limited supply so should something go wrong in the future there will be something to fall back on.

Wind power in 2004 made up around 5% of all electricity in the UK and now a new batch of them have opened. the plan is to make wind farms generate 10% of all UK electricity in the next 5 or 10 years. that is a considerable amount from just one renewable source.

Would it really be so difficult for other countries to do the same kind of thing? Why doesn't America (not picking on them, just the most obvious example) build some solar panels in the desert areas and the such?
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 22:52   #103
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyfe
However, we're not putting any energy into windmills, hence from our perspective their energy efficiency is basically unlimited.
We're not putting any energy into fission reactors, either.

The only useful "efficiency" comment when dealing with power sources of this nature is (energy required to produce said power source) vs (expected energy output over its lifespan).
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 22:56   #104
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Exclamation Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyfe
Oh, come on!

Energy efficiency is a measure how much energy you put in, contra how much you get out. This is relevant in combustion engines, heating, light etc.
A more general definition of machine efficiency is the ratio of the energy delivered by a machine to the energy supplied for its operation.
Quote:
However, we're not putting any energy into windmills, hence from our perspective their energy efficiency is basically unlimited.
It makes a big difference, however, in whether we have to build one windmill or a million windmills to get a given amount of usable energy. Insofar as windmiils aren't free, that's no small matter surely?
Quote:
What matters is how much they actually produce, not how much they could theoritically produce.
Indeed. But which numbers (theoretical vs. actual) does one usually find quoted in the newspapers/websites?
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 23:09   #105
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus

Indeed. But which numbers (theoretical vs. actual) does one usually find quoted in the newspapers/websites?
not the ones from ****ing windmills for the homeowner for god's sake
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 23:18   #106
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
the amount of energy in wind is inconcievable

well

not if I really really tried.

but to you lot
not really. it can be calculated through a combination of formulae ( which at this moment i cant remember all of )
The factors involved are things like the velocity of the wind, the density of the wind, the chemical composition of the wind ( %'s of O2, N2, etc ) , advogadros constant , the temperature of the wind etc etc
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 23:27   #107
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge
as opposed to the left wing rhetoric that you have a tendancy to spew forth at every opportunity?
When I saw this reply to Yahwe, I was confused and didn't know how to react. I thought of a number of approaches. First, I was just going to call you a spastic. But that's not very nice and I'm not sure would get us anywhere.

Secondly, I was going to simply ask you what you actually meant by "left wing" - after all you could be operating under some sort of Nodrogian definition of left-wing whereby anyone who disagrees with you on anything is given such a tag. But then I realised that'd encourage at least 3-4 more off-topic posts and I wasn't terribly interested.

Then I was I was going to trawl through some of Yahwe's posts and re-post the ones where he freely admits his respect and admiration for the British Empire, the Monarch, the class system in general and things of that nature. I wondered if I had saved any old threads which made your comment look even more silly as where Yahwe (if memory serves) endorsed some sort of aristocratic slavery. And then I realised....why bother? You obviously didn't pay attention to his posts the first time round, why would you the second time?

So hell, let's just go with the original plan. YOU'RE A ****ING SPASTIC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
oh and i dare say that calling me a lefty has dearly upset many many lefties here
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 23:29   #108
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
producing the most per head of population is somewhat irrelevent with regards to the global picture.
what matters most is who makes the most, not who makes the most per person.

btw :
Iceland - Population: 296,737
USA - Population: 295,734,134

i believe my point is made and understood

My point was that quoting or refering to a particular statistic was rather irrelevant, obviously a country with a population of less than half the size of most European cities would not produce anything like the overall level of pollution that the same city produces.

Things need to be taken in context, yes the USA has a very large population, and yes it produces a lot of pollution, but it is by no mean the worst offender in all contexts.
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 23:31   #109
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge
Things need to be taken in context, yes the USA has a very large population
it doesn't

in any context
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 23:35   #110
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

what yahwe is (probably) referring to when he says the USA is the worst offender is that the USA produces the most greenhouse gases, irrelevent of how many people live there.
Its that context which matters, the quantity of gas produced per country
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 23:45   #111
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
it doesn't

in any context
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/.../2119rank.html
Theres a list of countries by population.
as you can see, the US is some way behind china, which has by far the highest population
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 23:46   #112
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
what yahwe is (probably) referring to when he says the USA is the worst offender is that the USA produces the most greenhouse gases, irrelevent of how many people live there.
Its that context which matters, the quantity of gas produced per country

As it is a VAST country with a VERY large population it is no surprise that the US is probably a high offender in regard to Greenhouse Gas emisions.

But that does not detract from the fact that other countries are as bad or worse in some respects,

Actions by one country no matter how large will have an ineffectual result if they work alone.

It requires us all to take on a responsibiltity either through technology or in alteranative fuel sources and in reduction of emisions.

To blame one country (the US) is very short sited.
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 23:50   #113
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Even if Global Warming does not exist we have to start moving away from fossil fuels. In the next hundred years or so (if we're lucky) FF will start running out and then we will be truely ****ed if we've not already converted.
I don't think that there has been much in the way of opposition on this tread to the idea of converting to more environment friendly forms of energy. There has been some opposition to the thought that it has been proven that global warming is caused by man as opposed to being a natural cycle of the very environment we are supposed to protect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
With the continuing emergence of China and India as rivals for these resources, guzzling as much oil as they can get their hands on it's going to run out even sooner.
Interestingly, the Chinese seem interested in going to hydrogen fuel as they become more and more motorized. This may give them a tremendous edge at some point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Now, we could push our luck and keep using them until the very last resource runs out or we can begin the transition now and maintain a limited supply so should something go wrong in the future there will be something to fall back on.
Until it becomes financially beneficial to change over to alternative energy sources, it woun't be done. As fossil fuel becomes more and more expensive, alternative sources become more and more viable. At some point there will be enough money in alternate sources to attract big mone. Then, and only then will there be any meaningful change. (I predict.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Why doesn't America (not picking on them, just the most obvious example) build some solar panels in the desert areas and the such?
Part of the problem in America is that the same people who cry out for alternatives to fossil fuels also put up many legal road blocks to everything else.
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 23:53   #114
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge
As it is a VAST country with a VERY large population it is no surprise that the US is probably a high offender in regard to Greenhouse Gas emisions.

But that does not detract from the fact that other countries are as bad or worse in some respects,

Actions by one country no matter how large will have an ineffectual result if they work alone.

It requires us all to take on a responsibiltity either through technology or in alteranative fuel sources and in reduction of emisions.

To blame one country (the US) is very short sited.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1820523.stm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbc
The US contains 4% of the world's population but produces about 25% of all carbon dioxide emissions. By comparison, Britain emits 3% - about the same as India which has 15 times as many people.
A bit old now but the facts remain about the same.
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 23:56   #115
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

so are china and india. They are vast countries also which have populations exponentially larger, yet the USA still beats them for quantity of greenhouse gases emitted.

Blaming one country is short sighted , yes, but so is saying " we arent the worst in terms of pollution per capita " , and ignoring the fact the country is pumping out more then anyone else.
Also , the technological means suggested by the US government, such as pumping the stuff back into unused oil wells is also ignoring the problem
You cant just pump the stuff underground and pretend its ' gone away' - its still there. You havent dealt with the problem by doing that, youve just hidden part of it and you cant store it forever.

Best solution is to use alternative sources of energy. Personally my money is on nuclear fusion to be the best replacement for the current systems.
unfortunately its still some decades away , therefore something needs to be done in the interim, even nuclear fission plants would be better then the current solutions, which are either polluting ( coal/oil/gas based ) technologies , or require a hideously large amount of investment by comparison for a little return.

Hydrogen power is touted as the 'best' fix for it, with the hydrogen coming from the electrolysis of water, but they always ignore where the electricity comes from : coal/oil/gas power plants.
The problem wont go away until that side of it is dealt with


actions by any country will reduce it, if it will have an effect is best left to the scientists who are FAR more qualified to say if it will have an effect then the politicians are.
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Unread 15 Jul 2005, 00:00   #116
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Exclamation Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

People who post in greenhouse threads shouldn't throw stones.

ho ho ho
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Unread 15 Jul 2005, 00:11   #117
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge
As it is a VAST country with a VERY large population it is no surprise that the US is probably a high offender in regard to Greenhouse Gas emisions.
sorry to be the breath of sanity into a thread of spastics

but america is a vast country with a very small population (for such a vast land mass) (hell. even for a middling landmass it's ****ing tiny)
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Unread 15 Jul 2005, 00:15   #118
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

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Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
People who post in greenhouse threads shouldn't throw stones.

ho ho ho

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Unread 15 Jul 2005, 00:24   #119
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

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Originally Posted by Phil^
You cant just pump the stuff underground and pretend its ' gone away' - its still there. You havent dealt with the problem by doing that, youve just hidden part of it and you cant store it forever.
As long as we're only talking about CO2, you do realise that the ground is exactly where it came from?

Simply putting it away is a splendid way of restoring balance. You just need viable solutions for the needed timespan / quanta.
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Unread 15 Jul 2005, 00:31   #120
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

actually it came from animals and plants who died, became oil and coal and then got sucked up and burnt
as a gas, in the atmosphere , CO2 is not nice.
as a long-chain carbon molecule, bound with hydrogen its better

just pumping the gas itself underground isnt going to work. Gases take up more room then liquids do, due to their very nature
converting them back into liquids takes energy. turning them back into oil takes MUCH more energy and is a pain in the arse to do.

edit : and just turning CO2 into a liquid isnt doable, its one of those gases which sublimes only. Goes straight from solid to gas with no middle stage.
plus even if it were, it would be under a stupid pressure and at low temperature.
shoving it into the ground would lead it to heat up over time, and increase pressure until the point it just exploded out from the ground due to the sheer pressure, comparable to a volcano going off
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Unread 15 Jul 2005, 00:46   #121
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

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Originally Posted by Tactitus
Indeed. But which numbers (theoretical vs. actual) does one usually find quoted in the newspapers/websites?
I do not think I have seen efficiency numbers for windmills posted anywhere untill now. Due to norway having a windy coast, I have however read numerous discussions concerning windmills, and absolute values have always been the frame of reference.

Just because some other people over the pond enjoy posting meaningless numbers, does it make it alright for you to repost them? Judging from your reply, you knew those numbers themselves were meaningless and basically a straw-man.

Didn't bother digging up an article concerning how little energy they actually produce compared to the space they take / resources to build? So you just threw out something irrelevant numbers and hoped nobody would actually read the link?

(sorry for being angry, you just honestly confuse me. We all know you're smart, but this just feels like intellectual dishonesty)
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Unread 15 Jul 2005, 05:16   #122
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

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Originally Posted by dda
Now the environmentalists are complaining that the windmills are killing migratory birds and should be shut down.
...
But dammit think of the poor birdies!
My first reaction is; Let them die.

If the 'poor birdies' are going to die due to global warming anyway, then why not kill them using Wind Turbines?

Also, there was a study reported in a recent NewScientist that reported that migratory birds - after overcoming initial confusion of the sudden erection of wind turbines on their route - had a natural fear of approaching the turbines. It was found that the birds flew through the corridors between the turbines and only a few small number (iirc it was 3%, but it might have been less) were actually killed by the turbines.

I would have thought that the marginal benefits of reletively 'clean' energy that would help to postpone greenhouse warming would outweigh the loss of migatory birds (who after initial discovery, learned to not fly into them) who would just die due to global warming anyway.

But maybe that's just me. :\
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Unread 15 Jul 2005, 06:02   #123
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

A few facts and figures.

In the year 2000, 10% of all of the wind generated electricity was generated in the US.
In the same year, 97% of the wind generated electricity in the US was generated in California.
About 60% of that was generated in the Altamont Pass Wind Resource Area.
The production was 3,604,000,000 kilowatt hours, about 1.27% of the electricity generated in California.

The US has announced its intent to generate 5% of US electricity through wind turbines by 2020.
California has announced its intent to generate 20% of California electricity via wind turbines by 2010.

Various environmental groups have filed a series of law suits which could jepordize the entire Altamont area's economic viability (damned lawyers).

The real thrust of the lawsuit is over an estimated 1,700-4,700 dead raptors (birds of prey) per year.
As Ultimate Newbie points out, I guess that they feel that the birds are immune to global warming. This is the kind of mixed message that turns off Average Joe.

On a happier note, there are millions of squirrels, rabbits and lizards in the Altamont area who are tickled to death with chopping up hawks and eagles in the area.
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Unread 15 Jul 2005, 07:28   #124
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Exclamation Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Wind power in 2004 made up around 5% of all electricity in the UK and now a new batch of them have opened. the plan is to make wind farms generate 10% of all UK electricity in the next 5 or 10 years. that is a considerable amount from just one renewable source.

Would it really be so difficult for other countries to do the same kind of thing? Why doesn't America (not picking on them, just the most obvious example) build some solar panels in the desert areas and the such?
Difficult, no; expensive, yes. Power generated from renewable sources is more expensive. My local utility has a program whereby electric customers can volunteer to pay higher rates for electricy generated by wind power. I believe about 1% of the customers have signed up so far. It's mostly a scam because the utility is required by law to generate a certain amount of their electricity from wind power whether people sign up for it or not, but it does perhaps give some insight into how enthusiastic people are about paying more for renewable energy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
so are china and india. They are vast countries also which have populations exponentially larger, yet the USA still beats them for quantity of greenhouse gases emitted.
Not for too much longer. China is on a pace to pass the US in greenhouse gas emissions in about 20 years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hyfe
I do not think I have seen efficiency numbers for windmills posted anywhere untill now. Due to norway having a windy coast, I have however read numerous discussions concerning windmills, and absolute values have always been the frame of reference.
If that's the case you're very fortunate. I've been trying to find out how much electricty my local utility has actually generated from wind power but the only numbers they've ever released are their capacity numbers. I suspect their actual numbers aren't looking that good. Maybe they're trying to pull one over on the legislature.
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Unread 15 Jul 2005, 07:50   #125
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

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Originally Posted by Phil^
Blaming one country is short sighted , yes, but so is saying " we arent the worst in terms of pollution per capita " , and ignoring the fact the country is pumping out more then anyone else.
It depends on how you perceive the problem however. The yanks tend to point out that they have one of the lowest "Carbon Intensity" levels - which are Emissions to GDP. Whilst this is only low in the US because of their fascination with nuclear energy and their colossal GDP, it shouldnt be dismissed out of hand as irrelevent. The US, whilst producing alot of greenhouse gasses, is doing so more efficiently than everyone else. ie - they may be producing 25% of the world's greenhouse gas, but at the same time they are also producing 50%* (or whatever) of the world's GDP. On a pure marginal cost/benefit analysis, that is 'fair' - though it all depends on interpretation.

Australia is also one of the highest greenhouse gas polluters per capita on the planet, though this is more because of the small amount of GDP 20 million people can produce. Australia also has a high Carbon Intensity rating (and thus we are Greenhouse Efficient) - but per capita or GDP analyses tends to overlook factors that are specific to individual nations. I live in my State's capital, Perth, which is about 2000km away from the next nearest capital, Adeliade (South Australia), and 4500km or so from Sydney. Perth only has a population of 1.2 million people and thus much of what we consume (and produce) is made elsewhere and transported in - expending greenhouse gasses along the way. This, obviously, doesnt happen in Europe where everyone lives a stone throw away from eachother - whilst australia's natural geography prevents population centres of the same density (ie, scarcity of water). In that sense, it isnt 'fair' to compare Australia with more condensed nations in that regard. But then again, it wouldnt be far to make Australia excempt from a global standardised system (ie, greenhouse gas per capita; Carbon Intensity).

Quote:
Hydrogen power is touted as the 'best' fix for it, with the hydrogen coming from the electrolysis of water, but they always ignore where the electricity comes from : coal/oil/gas power plants.
It doesnt take much of a physicist to realise that the energy required to split water is greater than the amount produced when burning Hydrogen Gas and Oxygen Gas. The net energy could be supplied through renewable sources however - Australia has a larger capacity for Solar power than most european nations and thus this is seen (here) to be the best way of producing Hydrogen fuel. It would be mildly ironic that Australia changes from one of the world's largest exporters of Fossil Fuels (coal, LNG) to the world's largest exporter of Hydrogen fuel .

Quote:
actions by any country will reduce it, if it will have an effect is best left to the scientists who are FAR more qualified to say if it will have an effect then the politicians are.
Scientists depend on politicians for funding - thus they tend to be less inclined to give politicians the 'bad' news. Or, there will be other scientists whose results may differ for whatever reason (such as differing assumptions or projections) which can then be flouted as the 'true' scenario - when really no-one has the perfect answer (or the methods to determine which answer is perfect). Thus, whilst scientists can project some light on the issue, they can also cloud the issue. In the end, the Politician who is ultimately in charge of making the decisions, is usually charged with acting in the best interests of their constituants - not the whole world. Untill both of those interests meet, i think it will be hard to achieve strong political direction.

I daresay leaving the market to do the work might be the best way forward - and for those of you who dont know me (which is most on GD), i am highly suspicious of right wing economic philosophy - so that;s a significant statement.

Edit: * This figure i just made up to illustrate a point, however the point remains valid provided that the US produces more than 25% of global GDP - which i wouldnt be surprised if they did.
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Unread 15 Jul 2005, 08:34   #126
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
My first reaction is; Let them die.

If the 'poor birdies' are going to die due to global warming anyway, then why not kill them using Wind Turbines?
Solution : Put a chicken-wire mesh around each turbine. problem solved.

Edit: And send the bill for the chicken wire to the environmental groups who cant make their own minds up
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Unread 15 Jul 2005, 08:41   #127
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

sounds good to me .

But chicken wire would only stop chickens - i thought the problem were migatory birds (and raptors were mentioned as well...)

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Unread 15 Jul 2005, 09:42   #128
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
Interestingly, the Chinese seem interested in going to hydrogen fuel as they become more and more motorized. This may give them a tremendous edge at some point.
Yep. Once they've used all the oil. I believe they've just opened a new refinery in Sudan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
Until it becomes financially beneficial to change over to alternative energy sources, it woun't be done. As fossil fuel becomes more and more expensive, alternative sources become more and more viable. At some point there will be enough money in alternate sources to attract big mone. Then, and only then will there be any meaningful change. (I predict.)
the cost shouldn't really begin to rise until the current wells run dry and new drilling stations have to be built, by this time it might already be too late to avoid a serious shortage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
Part of the problem in America is that the same people who cry out for alternatives to fossil fuels also put up many legal road blocks to everything else.
Environmentalists are not one big group. One group may be happy for wind farms to be built and not care about the birds. Another group such as the RSPCB (some British bird-loving charity) may be seriously opposed. to refer to them as one big group is unhelpful and incorrect. Imagine trying to have a discussion about politics for example and you keep referring to all the parties as one big group, it would be pointless (although scaringly accurate in the USA )
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Unread 15 Jul 2005, 09:50   #129
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
Difficult, no; expensive, yes. Power generated from renewable sources is more expensive.
But going to become necessary in the not-too-distant future.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
My local utility has a program whereby electric customers can volunteer to pay higher rates for electricy generated by wind power. I believe about 1% of the customers have signed up so far. It's mostly a scam because the utility is required by law to generate a certain amount of their electricity from wind power whether people sign up for it or not, but it does perhaps give some insight into how enthusiastic people are about paying more for renewable energy.
A company scamming its customers, what a surprise. Of course, people don't like paying more for things if they had they option they probably wouldn't pay anything. Whether people want to pay for it or not isn't really the issue as they are going to have to sooner or later. Also, this depends where you live. If you live in a run-down area of high unemployment and low wages for example then people may not be able to pay more than they currently do.
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Unread 15 Jul 2005, 11:17   #130
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

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Originally Posted by All Systems Go
But going to become necessary in the not-too-distant future.
Why will it be necessary?
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Unread 15 Jul 2005, 12:12   #131
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

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Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Why will it be necessary?
As oil and other fossil fuels are a finite resource. Oil apparently has <40 years left in it - though Coal at current consumption is like 220 and nuclear is quite alot more than that.
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Unread 15 Jul 2005, 15:20   #132
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
As oil and other fossil fuels are a finite resource. Oil apparently has <40 years left in it - though Coal at current consumption is like 220 and nuclear is quite alot more than that.
I know that oil and fossil fuels are a finite reserve, you buffoon. I was questioning why we need renewable energy sources, instead of nuclear power.
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Unread 15 Jul 2005, 16:00   #133
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
I know that oil and fossil fuels are a finite reserve, you buffoon. I was questioning why we need renewable energy sources, instead of nuclear power.
We could keep building more and more nuclear power stations if we wanted to. But doing so increases the chances of melting down and causing a major disaster. Let's not forget the nuclear waste we'll have to dispose of. You know, that stuff that remains radioactive for thousands for years.

there is no reason why we can't use nuclear power but there are at least a couple showing why it would not be advisable.
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Unread 15 Jul 2005, 16:24   #134
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

I think they should make everyone ride a pushbike>generator contraption for their electicity usage. Free energy and less obecity in society, twobirds onestone
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Unread 15 Jul 2005, 18:44   #135
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Exclamation Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
We could keep building more and more nuclear power stations if we wanted to. But doing so increases the chances of melting down and causing a major disaster.
Nuclear power's 50-year safety record is pretty impressive. But in any case, if the global warming predictions are true then aren't we already in--or heading for--a far greater disaster? If the threat is that real and that serious then it doesn't seem wise to be taking proven options off the table just because they're not perfect.
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Let's not forget the nuclear waste we'll have to dispose of. You know, that stuff that remains radioactive for thousands for years.
Nuclear wastes are far far smaller and far easier to contain than that of the fossil fuel plants they would be replacing.
Quote:
there is no reason why we can't use nuclear power but there are at least a couple showing why it would not be advisable.
We're all interested in a power source that's cheap/clean/safe/reliable in terawatt quantities. Unfortunately we don't appear to have one (maybe someday, but not right now). If we want to get serious about reducing greenhouse gas emissions then some trade-offs will have to be made and some risks will have to be accepted.
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Unread 15 Jul 2005, 19:47   #136
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
We're all interested in a power source that's cheap/clean/safe/reliable in terawatt quantities. Unfortunately we don't appear to have one (maybe someday, but not right now). If we want to get serious about reducing greenhouse gas emissions then some trade-offs will have to be made and some risks will have to be accepted.
Yes, some trade offs will have to be made and I've got nothing against the use of nuclear power, but that doesn't mean I think we should use it exclusively which is what MrL_JaKiri was asking about.
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Unread 16 Jul 2005, 17:16   #137
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
I know that oil and fossil fuels are a finite reserve, you buffoon. I was questioning why we need renewable energy sources, instead of nuclear power.
Are you talking about fusion or fission?

Fusion power IS renewable and fission isn't.

If we rely on fission power then that to will run out.

I guess the only way out is fusion power.
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Unread 16 Jul 2005, 18:27   #138
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

i dont think fusion power -is- renewable. Energy doesnt just come out of no-where.
its just that the fuel for it is readily available, ie hydrogen from water, and later if space travel becomes a reality, from gas giants and stars
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Unread 16 Jul 2005, 18:31   #139
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

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Originally Posted by Phil^
i dont think fusion power -is- renewable. Energy doesnt just come out of no-where.
its just that the fuel for it is readily available, ie hydrogen from water, and later if space travel becomes a reality, from gas giants and stars
Woudn't the breaking up of water eventually cause massive droughts?
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Unread 16 Jul 2005, 18:32   #140
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

you'd have to get through an awful lot of water to cause a drought
2/3ds of the planet is covered by the stuff
though with fusion you get a lot of energy from very little fuel, so no. not really imo.
By the time enough water was used in fusion plants for that to happen, space travel imo would have produced more sources for hydrogen
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Unread 16 Jul 2005, 18:36   #141
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Exclamation Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ärketrollmannen
Are you talking about fusion or fission?

Fusion power IS renewable and fission isn't.

If we rely on fission power then that to will run out.
So? Radioactive atoms will continue to decay whether we use the heat they produce or not--why shouldn't we get some useful energy of them while we can (at least until something better is available)?

And with breeder reactors, we can make more fuel anyway.
Quote:
I guess the only way out is fusion power.
That's not a viable option at the current time though. If the global warming predictions are true then we ought to be doing something now.
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Unread 16 Jul 2005, 20:19   #142
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

When you burn hydrodgen, doesn't it become water?
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Unread 16 Jul 2005, 22:28   #143
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

burning it yes. thats not what happens in fusion
in fusion, the hydrogen atoms are fused together on the molecular level, releasing an absurd amount of energy. its this process which happens in the sun.

the hydrogen-bomb uses this when it detonates, though its kickstarted by a normal fission reaction first to create the pressures and temperatures needed for a fusion reaction to occur
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Unread 17 Jul 2005, 01:10   #144
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

as an RP-er Ärketrollmannen can provide enough lightning bolts to power the world for years
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Unread 17 Jul 2005, 02:04   #145
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
So? Radioactive atoms will continue to decay whether we use the heat they produce or not--why shouldn't we get some useful energy of them while we can (at least until something better is available)?
Absolutly. I am all for nuclear power. I just pointed out that it wasn't an infinite fuel that solves all our problems.

Quote:
And with breeder reactors, we can make more fuel anyway.
It will make it last longer yes.

Quote:
That's not a viable option at the current time though. If the global warming predictions are true then we ought to be doing something now.
True. Wich is why we have to use all methods at our disposal, wind, water, solarpower and nuclear power. Not to mention geothermal power, tough that cannot be used everywhere.
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Unread 17 Jul 2005, 02:59   #146
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Exclamation Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ärketrollmannen
Absolutly. I am all for nuclear power. I just pointed out that it wasn't an infinite fuel that solves all our problems.
Nothing is infinite, and if we ever did solve all our problems future generations would get bored and hate us.
Quote:
True. Wich is why we have to use all methods at our disposal, wind, water, solarpower and nuclear power. Not to mention geothermal power, tough that cannot be used everywhere.
I don't see how it follows that we have to use all methods when some are much better than others. I think the do-a-little-bit-of-everything approach is what happens when politicians can't make a decision. :/
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Unread 17 Jul 2005, 04:09   #147
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
People who post in greenhouse threads shouldn't throw stones.
This says it all really. Per capita, we in the first world produce about the same amount of waste and pollution in relation to GDP.

Every meal has to be a flavor sensation. Our houses, our drug of choice, our clothes, our technology, our entertainment have to be so god damn perfect. Hot and regular showers are seen as a ****ing NECESSITY instead of the luxury it really is. There are endless waves of immigrants moving from their uncomfortable, but perfectly livable countries to join our way of life. It all comes down to the fact that we're all greedy ****ers.... but that's just human nature.

I don't know the numbers but I doubt the world could support the world's population living the way we do in the first world. I'd be suprised if it could support half. So along with more effiecient and less polluting energy sources, I think a lower standard of living will one day have to be accepted by the people on top. Especially with the Indias and the Chinas of the world who seem very intent getting up there as well. It's the only thing the majority of us as individuals can do to help the situation -- sacrifice some of our energy using tools and toys. Since I have freedom, I don't think I'm going to do so.
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Unread 17 Jul 2005, 06:48   #148
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitetrash
Hot and regular showers are seen as a ****ing NECESSITY instead of the luxury it really is.*
*except in France

Today I was listening to a scientist who is engaged in the analysis of ice-cores extracted from the ice cap in Antarctica. He said that they are able to go back about 200,000 years. They are able to draw a fair amount of information on global temperature from these ice cores.

One of the things that they have found is that there have been several times in this 200,000 year period when the climate of the world unexpectedly and rapidly heated up a lot. He said that some of these occurred over a period of years and not centuries. If this is true, we may all be screwed anyway.
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Unread 17 Jul 2005, 16:07   #149
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
We could keep building more and more nuclear power stations if we wanted to. But doing so increases the chances of melting down and causing a major disaster.
There have been no "disasters" in power stations that weren't run by morons*. Three Mile Island is the worst, and that's hardly a great problem.

I hear the French don't exactly have many problems, despite 80% of their power coming from nuclear reactors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Let's not forget the nuclear waste we'll have to dispose of. You know, that stuff that remains radioactive for thousands for years.
It becomes much easier to deal with it, the more of it we have - pure economies of scale.

*Never ever use Chernobyl as an example, because it went into meltdown when the russians decided "lets run an experiment where we turn ALL the safeties off, and physically stop the ones that kick in automatically from working!"
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Unread 17 Jul 2005, 17:42   #150
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

Just got back from Tour de France and other vacation activities. I think this thread went really well. In response to some earlier posts and to the neg rep comments, I post these articles so I can read what GD people think about the subject. It is much more interesting to read than five pages of complaints about London bomb jokes and one page of actual jokes or "what song are you listening to." Also thanks for the pos rep to balance the neg rep.

See next week's installment of "Saddam Hussein, benevolant dictator or terrorist supporter?
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