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Unread 19 Dec 2006, 18:20   #1
Kal
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Universe structure in general (will not affect r20)

Alliances, clusters, galaxies, planets.

This is probabaly too many different groups to satisfy.

Planets obviously must stay.

I want one group for meeting new people and one group for playing with people you can relly on. How should this work? How should theese groups be balenced?
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Unread 19 Dec 2006, 18:22   #2
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Re: Universe structure in general (will not affect r20)

Mixed gals of 10 man buddypacks with and then 5 spaces for randoms.

If you can't get 10 mates together, then randoms fill up the remaining buddypack spots to make a total of 15.
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Unread 19 Dec 2006, 18:28   #3
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Re: Universe structure in general (will not affect r20)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Mixed gals of 10 man buddypacks with and then 5 spaces for randoms.

If you can't get 10 mates together, then randoms fill up the remaining buddypack spots to make a total of 15.
does that answer any of my questions? or does it cleverly answer them and sugets we don't need alliances/clusters at all?
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Unread 19 Dec 2006, 18:29   #4
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Re: Universe structure in general (will not affect r20)

I think the alliance needs to stay the way they are, it's what most people still play pa for, their alliance and the friends they have in that alliance.

Clusters i'm not really sure about, I've read the suggested r20 changes for clusters and i have to say i don't like it one bit.
The way i'd personally improve clusters (not like anyone will listen to my idea but i still think it's something good) is to make incluster def eta 7 for all shiptypes, somewhat like ingal def is eta 5 for all shiptypes, this makes cluster alliances usefull again and gives you the chance to meet new people in your cluster.
Also i'd like to see the option to join multiple alliances again, so there can be ingame cluster alliances too, very helpfull for new players or players without IRC, it could be their first step into a real alliance/comunity and a chance to learn more about the game (maybe a special ranking for clusters and stuff).

Galaxies: make it 10-15 people max and a 5 man bp.
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Unread 19 Dec 2006, 18:37   #5
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Re: Universe structure in general (will not affect r20)

I want people to walk away from the current idea of what exists in the universe at the moment.

I simply put want two groups:
1) a group of people u know and can relly on - they will defend you and help you attack
2) a group of new people u don't know - people who might turn out to be the next best pa player, the future of the game

now we also don;t need to assume any of the current rules e.g. support planet exist either.

So while we only have our two core groups it might be ok to defend other people.

So an example config might be - random galaxies, private alliances. if this example were the case how would we need to adjust the dynamics? perhaps alliances would need really low etas for defence? Perhaps you should be able to attack in galaxy - so a galaxy might be more like a current cluster?

There are loads of options and I think we need to think outside the box.
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Unread 19 Dec 2006, 18:56   #6
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Re: Universe structure in general (will not affect r20)

Random galaxies would necessitate disabling the exile options. (Hmmm... I seem to be suggesting this rather often these days). And, of course, alliances are private by definition - although creating "default alliances" for new players may not be unworkable.

However, I think those ideas would result in everyone feeding off the weak.

Attacks against non-allied players would get no defence. Once they were all bashed into the ground the weaker alliances would follow.

With "really low etas" for alliance defence, attacks against strong alliances would almost always be defended - even more so than is the case at present.
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Unread 19 Dec 2006, 18:57   #7
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Re: Universe structure in general (will not affect r20)

drop clusters and go with tomkat's gal suggestion
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Unread 19 Dec 2006, 19:07   #8
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Re: Universe structure in general (will not affect r20)

I don't understand why there should only be 2 groups, what's wrong with the current setup we have know?

The way it is now:
1) An alliance with ppl you know (chances are you won't know all of them, you even might know none of them when you join)
2) A galaxy with some ppl you know (don't have to be from your alliance, they could just be friends) and others you don't.
3) A cluster with people you usually don't give a crap about.

Imo there ain't nothing wrong with 1 & 2, just 3 needs a little work (look at my suggestion a couple of posts up for that )
I fear that if we think too far outside the box, the core of what planetarion actually is might get lost and the game will change dramaticly (maybe get alot worse too)
Instead of trying to change it all, why not work on improving the current game? There are many good ideas out there in the minds of pa-players to improve the game without changing it completly and losing certain elements that the game has had since the beginning.
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Unread 19 Dec 2006, 19:15   #9
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Re: Universe structure in general (will not affect r20)

I have nothing against having 3 groups that way u describe them - but I think we do need to be clear on the purpsoe of the groups and hence how they should be balenced relative to each other.
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Unread 19 Dec 2006, 20:04   #10
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Re: Universe structure in general (will not affect r20)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
I want people to walk away from the current idea of what exists in the universe at the moment.
Why?
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Unread 19 Dec 2006, 20:12   #11
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Re: Universe structure in general (will not affect r20)

it probably helps when thinking outside of the box. Ie instead of whats generally accepted and thought in terms of, to think about how it should be.
Not that its going to work anyway. People get stuck in their ways
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Unread 19 Dec 2006, 20:33   #12
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Re: Universe structure in general (will not affect r20)

Really outside the box?

Random galaxies, partly random alliances.

Have galaxies in buddypacks of 2x1/3x1 and alliances at 30 at start. everyone above 30 is randomly distrubuted into the alliances. That way we ensure new players to be put into an alliance from the start and that alliances will have to work with their randoms in order to make a good alliance ranking. All alliances under a certain amount,lets say 20 at the shuffle will be deleted and randomly shuffled into the others.
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Unread 19 Dec 2006, 20:35   #13
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Re: Universe structure in general (will not affect r20)

small private gals = many more gals, many more clusters.
smaller alliance tags = many more tags, much more competition.

having non-solid gals is crap anyway. you spend most of your time worrying about whether your galmates find out who you are, and then get bashed when they do.

having multiple alliances in one gal doesnt present any advantages. if the alliances are at war then enemy planets will be targetted whether they're ingal or not. and if u have hostiles in the gal, that's x many players you cant get defense from.

mixed gals / buddy packs ftl. Solid, private gals ftw.
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Unread 19 Dec 2006, 20:37   #14
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Re: Universe structure in general (will not affect r20)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool

Random galaxies, partly random alliances.
Random alliances is about the dumbest thing I've ever heard. The whole point of an alliance is to play with mates to ENJOY working together to acheive a common goal. Working with people you dont know/dont like is incredibly incredibly stupid and will put people off the game.
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Unread 19 Dec 2006, 20:49   #15
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Re: Universe structure in general (will not affect r20)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny
Random alliances is about the dumbest thing I've ever heard. The whole point of an alliance is to play with mates to ENJOY working together to acheive a common goal. Working with people you dont know/dont like is incredibly incredibly stupid and will put people off the game.
Thank you for constructive feedback. Most of the alliances today have about 30 players in their core, and the ones they recruit after that are more or less random chance players that either the alliance recruit from the posts on the recruitmentforum or the random irc people.

I think that with random joinings in an alliance you will need to build around the new players, and they will need help to get better, but in the end, you will learn up alot of new loyal players.
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Unread 19 Dec 2006, 21:11   #16
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Re: Universe structure in general (will not affect r20)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
it probably helps when thinking outside of the box.
Again, why?

Is there an actual good reason to change one of the fundamental aspects of the game, with the notion that you will be able to considerably remove gameplay, or address a large amount of player concerns? Or are you 'thinking outside of the box' because it's a pretty snazzy buzzword?
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Unread 19 Dec 2006, 21:12   #17
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Re: Universe structure in general (will not affect r20)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Thank you for constructive feedback. Most of the alliances today have about 30 players in their core, and the ones they recruit after that are more or less random chance players that either the alliance recruit from the posts on the recruitmentforum or the random irc people.

I think that with random joinings in an alliance you will need to build around the new players, and they will need help to get better, but in the end, you will learn up alot of new loyal players.

I voiced an opinion and emphasised how bad your idea was. I then went on to discuss why. There was nothing non-constructive about it.

And while I'm sure you mean well, and I'm going to explain it to you anyway even though everyone with an ounce of common sense will already realise this, and I'll use 1up as an example. (made up numbers too).

1up has a core of 30 people. With ur 'half random alliances' proposition and with a 50 member limit (for example) - that's 30 random people that can join the tag, right?

So you telling me out of that 20 people not one of them is going to be an eXi spy? who's going random for the sole purpose of gaining intelligence on an enemy alliance?

And its not just those two alliances either, it would be exactly the same across the board.

Oh, and I cant name a single alliance that just accepts applicants by default. Regardless of any recruitment post the alliance still gets to choose whether to accept a player. If they let in a spy that's their own damned fault, but at least then they take responsibility and not have it FORCED upon them by some screwed up new 'feature' of this game.

Please try and get a clue before replying to my posts from now on.
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Unread 19 Dec 2006, 21:29   #18
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Re: Universe structure in general (will not affect r20)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
Again, why?

Is there an actual good reason to change one of the fundamental aspects of the game, with the notion that you will be able to considerably remove gameplay, or address a large amount of player concerns? Or are you 'thinking outside of the box' because it's a pretty snazzy buzzword?
basically I want to start with top level concepts and then see how the current systems map to thoose and hence idenitfy the problem areas.

For example there was the suggestion above that there should be a group of people you don;t know, a group thats a mix and a group thats all people u know. (cluster, galaxy, alliance).

I would suggest that with the eta bonus being the main incentive to work together that the alliance should be private, the cluster mixed and the galaxy random. (so a system wherby u pick upto day 20 people to be in the same cluster as you comes to mind - a nightmare to shuffle etc I know).

By starting with top level concepts I am to properly analyse the systems in the game and think about them without the constraints of thinking in terms of the current clusters/galaxies/alliances etc.


While the end result probably won;t be a major change in the current setup it will result in an understanding that allows us to move in the right direction.
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Unread 19 Dec 2006, 21:38   #19
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Re: Universe structure in general (will not affect r20)

First of all, the object here was to think outside the box, not to emphasize on the current structure of PA.

There could be levels of axx a random alliancemember gets by this system and yes, spies will occur, but that could happen just as much with the current system. With the random factor it is also less probable of getting into an "enemy" alliance as you have no guarantee that you will end up in the desired alliance. There are alot of successfull games out there that have totally random alliances and theese games are both thriving and having fun with it, I dont see why this couldnt be done in PA aswell.
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Unread 19 Dec 2006, 22:10   #20
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Re: Universe structure in general (will not affect r20)

yes, and if PA players wanted to be playing that system then they'd be doing so already. the object here was to think of ways to improve the game, not start listing features that happen to be successful elsewhere.

and you CAN NOT argue with my maths. with semi-random alliances you are GUARANTEEING a spy. Not increasing the chances, but guaranteeing it. at the moment recruits go through a screening process that gets tougher with the better alliances. your suggestion is basically saying "we dont want to give you the choice to decide who you play with".

I think that sucks, and believe an overwhelming majority of the community would tell you the same thing.

your 'inability to see why this couldn't be done in PA aswell' is the exact reason you should stop posting ideas. until you can gain an understanding of your surroundings, fully appreciate what change ur suggestions would implicate and know without a doubt that it could only be for the better of the game, you shouldn't suggest it.

your system works in other games where the community has been created and built upon 'random alliances'. they dont appreciate what it's like to be part of a core as the game mechanics wont allow it. you cannot change 19 rounds of planetarion history, nature and character based on some notion that 'it works elsewhere'.
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Unread 19 Dec 2006, 22:15   #21
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Re: Universe structure in general (will not affect r20)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
basically I want to start with top level concepts and then see how the current systems map to thoose and hence idenitfy the problem areas.

[...]

While the end result probably won;t be a major change in the current setup it will result in an understanding that allows us to move in the right direction.
I can not imagine the system of cluster - galaxy - planet to be considered a large problem area, and considering you only have the options to either break this up - which constitutes a major change, or keep it as-is - which constitutes no change at all, your last statement doesn't actually mean anything. Neither does the former, but for different reasons.

People want to meet both new people as well as play with friends? Mix buddy packs into single galaxies. Give clusters a meaningful reason to exist, and there you go. Playing with new people and playing with friends at the same time. Throughout the history of the game people have been doing both, and I'm frankly lost why this is an issue that concerns you now, after 19 rounds of the game.

I'm glad that we are having this discussion on the forums though. While the end result probably won't be a major change in our current opinions, it will lead to a greater understanding that allows us all to move in the right direction.
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Unread 19 Dec 2006, 22:37   #22
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Re: Universe structure in general (will not affect r20)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny
and you CAN NOT argue with my maths. with semi-random alliances you are GUARANTEEING a spy. Not increasing the chances, but guaranteeing it. at the moment recruits go through a screening process that gets tougher with the better alliances. your suggestion is basically saying "we dont want to give you the choice to decide who you play with".
Eh, and what "math" are you introducing as evidence? I have to say I'm fed up with people like you, and your inability to see beyond the "security" concern of PA. No, my system is saying: LET NEW PLAYERS IN ffs. It's a way of you know, getting new players to stay in the game instead of ending up in some shit hole of an alliance that crumbles and makes the player lose interest of the game. And it also adds some inclusion into the game. I would happily give up alliance tags and making them visible to lessen the intrest of spying on others, and I would happily include this to make sure that the new players (Remember them?) get a fair shot at being included instead of being frown upon as a possible spy.

Your way of thinking is EXACTLY what is wrong with this game and if you don't understand that the game needs to be a bit more friendly towards new players then PA will end up in a loop where we will not get new players in and the old players will eventually quit.

One of my alliance members said something funny the other day, about 80% of the people he attacked he actually knew.. Get some new blood in, and take some risks, and to hell with people like you being scared of doing whats best for the game to make sure you can live in your own little plastic bubble.

Oh, and feel free to flame me some more for making suggestions. That sure proves Kal's resent comments about the hostility in this community.
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Unread 19 Dec 2006, 22:47   #23
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Re: Universe structure in general (will not affect r20)

Personally, I just want a private galaxy with 10-15 people. Preferably 15 rather than 10. No randoms to deal with, just us.
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Unread 19 Dec 2006, 22:52   #24
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Re: Universe structure in general (will not affect r20)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Eh, and what "math" are you introducing as evidence? I have to say I'm fed up with people like you, and your inability to see beyond the "security" concern of PA. No, my system is saying: LET NEW PLAYERS IN ffs. It's a way of you know, getting new players to stay in the game instead of ending up in some shit hole of an alliance that crumbles and makes the player lose interest of the game. And it also adds some inclusion into the game. I would happily give up alliance tags and making them visible to lessen the intrest of spying on others, and I would happily include this to make sure that the new players (Remember them?) get a fair shot at being included instead of being frown upon as a possible spy.

Your way of thinking is EXACTLY what is wrong with this game and if you don't understand that the game needs to be a bit more friendly towards new players then PA will end up in a loop where we will not get new players in and the old players will eventually quit.

One of my alliance members said something funny the other day, about 80% of the people he attacked he actually knew.. Get some new blood in, and take some risks, and to hell with people like you being scared of doing whats best for the game to make sure you can live in your own little plastic bubble.
Listen Kargool 'my way of thinking' is an observation about how the game is, and always will be. My 'way of thinking' is an assessment of HOW your idea will be received, an understanding of what will happen, and going by what happens in the game already.

My point is that no matter how much YOU or I want to change this game for the better by using any means possible - this isn't a perfect little world and you need that little perfect-world bubble you're in popped so you can start talking sense.

Yes, I realise that your idea (in a perfect world) would be beneficial for the game. Yes, ideally if we could just throw 'new players' into the system and pair them with existing alliances so the kids can make friends and play in the sand together etc etc that'd be great. My main concern, which is where you dont seem to be following me is that even with the best intentions at heart (which I'm utterly convinced you have btw) there are TOO MANY people out there that would be willing to take advantage of the system to provide their friends with 'information' regarding their enemy's whereabouts.

And it is on this basis I challenge your understand of Planetarion mechanics and sense in general, not because I think your idea sucks, but because you dont seem to realise the implications it could and would have upon the game. People would be getting screwed left right and centre and this, imo, would cause more people to quit than any other factor currently in existence.

Edit:
Oh, and the maths was that if the alliance limit was 50, and half were randoms, then over 8 alliances even that's 200 randoms. Guaranteeing was an over-statement, but mathematically speaking finding 1 out of 200 possibilities is a very very high chance of one of those people being a spy in which the alliance has no choice to accept. Going on past experiences, in my eyes the figure is more likely to be 1 in 5, at least, as there are naff all new people coming into the game that would warrant 25 new people in every alliance.

Last edited by Kenny; 19 Dec 2006 at 23:01.
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Unread 19 Dec 2006, 22:59   #25
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Re: Universe structure in general (will not affect r20)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny
Listen Kargool 'my way of thinking' is an observation about how the game is, and always will be. My 'way of thinking' is an assessment of HOW your idea will be received, an understanding of what will happen, and going by what happens in the game already.

My point is that no matter how much YOU or I want to change this game for the better by using any means possible - this isn't a little world and you need that little perfect-world bubble you're in popped so you can start talking sense.

Yes, I realise that your idea (in a perfect world) would be beneficial for the game. Yes, ideally if we could just throw 'new players' into the system and pair them with existing alliances so the kids can make friends and play in the sand together etc etc that'd be great. My main concern, which is where you dont seem to be following me is that even with the best intentions at heart (which I'm utterly convinced you have btw) there are TOO MANY people out there that would be willing to take advantage of the system to provide their friends with 'information' regarding their enemy's whereabouts.

And it is on this basis I challenge your understand of Planetarion mechanics and sense in general, not because I think your idea sucks, but because you dont seem to realise the implications it could and would have upon the game. People would be getting screwed left right and centre and this, imo, would cause more people to quit than any other factor currently in existence.
So in essence you are saying that the community will never change and always jump down to dirty tricks and being generally ass-holes just because they can?

Yeah, to that i might agree to some extent, but I think that this system also can work both ways. An alliance that tries to spy like this have no guarantee that this wont happen to their own alliance either, so just because of that I think that most HC's SHOULD think twice before doing dirty tricks since everyone can do exactly the same towards them with the same ease. Call it a standoff of terror so to speak.
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Unread 19 Dec 2006, 23:02   #26
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Re: Universe structure in general (will not affect r20)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Call it a standoff of terror so to speak.
Can I by any chance interest you in a cheap bridge in the San Francisco Bay Area?
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Unread 19 Dec 2006, 23:07   #27
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Re: Universe structure in general (will not affect r20)

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Unread 19 Dec 2006, 23:10   #28
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Re: Universe structure in general (will not affect r20)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
So in essence you are saying that the community will never change and always jump down to dirty tricks and being generally ass-holes just because they can?

Yeah, to that i might agree to some extent, but I think that this system also can work both ways. An alliance that tries to spy like this have no guarantee that this wont happen to their own alliance either, so just because of that I think that most HC's SHOULD think twice before doing dirty tricks since everyone can do exactly the same towards them with the same ease. Call it a standoff of terror so to speak.
Exactly. It is the exact reason that alliances will fear it happen to them that would push them into abusing this feature. And I'm willing to bet my stamp collection on the community's inability to come to any kind of gentleman's agreement.

I never thought it was a bad idea, I just maintain that it isn't applicable to PA.
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Unread 20 Dec 2006, 01:17   #29
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Re: Universe structure in general (will not affect r20)

The whole premis around reduced cluster eta's is flawed.

Alliances work becuase the players in them are (to some extent) a known quanitity.

By implementing changes to improve or give an advantage to clusters by eta reduction is a complete and utter joke, an attempt to put back into the game something that dissapeared in R6 or 7.

Cluster alliances may well be enforced/promoted/driven by necessity with the changes made, but the end result will be nothing more than intel gathering by the strongest alliance in any given cluster then a roid rape of any galaxies and planets that they know that can be easily reduced to dust.

The game as it stands, and as it has been driven over the last 10 rounds has for good or bad favoured alliances and it has been the alliances that have driven the game play.

The only way to drive the game to favour the player is either to completely remove alliances and remove any advantage given to them, or to make defence from anywhere other than galaxy defence impossible.

In other words make every planet independant of any other, and only allow in-gal defence.
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Unread 20 Dec 2006, 01:18   #30
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Re: Universe structure in general (will not affect r20)

Right, dump this silly random alliances idea that the posters above me have been talking about. It's silly. Alliances can only exist as private alliances, otherwise they won't function at all.


My proposal.

Clusters are gone.



Create galaxies of 50 planets each, allow them to increase in size as people sign up as the round goes on. Your planet exists in c200 until tick 48, when you join a galaxy in the main universe. Exiling of any kind is disabled, but planets will be automatically moved to c200 after 7 days of inactivity. With these galaxy sizes, it wouldn't really matter anyway.

It's impossible to attack within your galaxy, defence ETA is -3 (5 ticks to send FI/CO, 6 ticks for FR/DE, 7 ticks for CR/BS). There's no flat ETA anymore (i.e. the current galaxy ETA 5). With this set-up I envisage about 30galaxies depending on sign-ups.


Alliances have the standard -1 ETA that they currently have, and would not be able to recruit more than 75 members once in the top 5, maximum of 90 members to recruit while in the top 10, overall alliance limit of 100 members.
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Unread 20 Dec 2006, 01:23   #31
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Re: Universe structure in general (will not affect r20)

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Right, dump this silly random alliances idea that the posters above me have been talking about. It's silly. Alliances can only exist as private alliances, otherwise they won't function at all.


My proposal.

Clusters are gone.



Create galaxies of 50 planets each, allow them to increase in size as people sign up as the round goes on. Your planet exists in c200 until tick 48, when you join a galaxy in the main universe. Exiling of any kind is disabled, but planets will be automatically moved to c200 after 7 days of inactivity. With these galaxy sizes, it wouldn't really matter anyway.

It's impossible to attack within your galaxy, defence ETA is -3 (5 ticks to send FI/CO, 6 ticks for FR/DE, 7 ticks for CR/BS). There's no flat ETA anymore (i.e. the current galaxy ETA 5). With this set-up I envisage about 30galaxies depending on sign-ups.


Alliances have the standard -1 ETA that they currently have, and would not be able to recruit more than 75 members once in the top 5, maximum of 90 members to recruit while in the top 10, overall alliance limit of 100 members.
Impossible, in as much as all you would create is factions within a galaxy all trying to outmanouver/spy/backstab each other in favour of their own allies/mates/loyalties.

A reasonable course would be to maintain a galaxy structure but with a max member count of 15, 10 being placed at the shuffle, but others being added when they signup or exile.
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Unread 20 Dec 2006, 01:34   #32
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Re: Universe structure in general (will not affect r20)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge
Impossible, in as much as all you would create is factions within a galaxy all trying to outmanouver/spy/backstab each other in favour of their own allies/mates/loyalties.
I'm sorry, why is this a bad thing and why shouldn't it be part of the game?


It'd be a worthwhile throw-back to the days of cluster/parallel wars without so many of the negative aspects - since you can't attack in-gal whereas you could attack in-cluster.
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Unread 20 Dec 2006, 01:49   #33
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Re: Universe structure in general (will not affect r20)

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
I'm sorry, why is this a bad thing and why shouldn't it be part of the game?

Logically:

2000 players = 40 galaxies

of the 2000 approximately 1500 will be in alliances of some description.

which in effect leaves 500 planets as targets that are completely free to hit.

The structure of a 50 planet galaxy will involve players from at least 5 allies and posibly more, if it is the case that only one planet in a 50 player gal is in a "top" allie one that cares not a damn for galaxy politics then that galaxy will be a roiding ground for them, purely on the basis that they wont need scans to check defence etc...

I doubt very much if with your proposed structure we would see galaxy attacks (one gal on another) and it would probably reduce the total number of attacks at all.

To take your idea to a logical conclusion you may as well have just one galaxy.

Or none.
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Unread 20 Dec 2006, 01:50   #34
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Re: Universe structure in general (will not affect r20)

50 planets per gal, assuming an initial signup of 1500 planets = 30 gals at max.
Doesnt this seem a little thin in terms of gal targets?
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Unread 20 Dec 2006, 03:30   #35
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Re: Universe structure in general (will not affect r20)

I'd be game for furballs ideas, but I'd say you have to make those big gals more resembling to clusters than to gals. His ideas about the etas seem good but i wouldnt give ppl the chance to get the intel they are now getting through gal overview as that would give too much information out. Rather combine the functions of cluster and galaxies. Make ministers available but drop the gal status completely. To make up for this make it possible for alliance bcs to see who of their members got incomings. This would make some of the backstabbing obsolete.

The alliance limits he propses seem very high for my eyes though. I'd rather see 50 man alliances than 100 man alliances. Though exceptions could be made for alliances further down the rankings.

Generally i think random galaxies arent much good and this universe is not big enough to support enough good private gals. Why not give a try to extended clusters. Sounds like a fun idea to me.
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Unread 20 Dec 2006, 04:11   #36
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Re: Universe structure in general (will not affect r20)

there could be a cluster menu in-game with a forums and diplomacy etc. the galactic commander of each galaxy in the cluster could be an authority. if not all want to participate, there could be an option in which the ministers may choose to disable the cluster interface. otherwise, it could be used for organizing cluster attacks and defence. this could also be an option for players to choose between having an alliance or using the cluster.

another idea to put out there: multiple shuffles during rounds
this sort of reshuffling every 200 ticks or so could place more focus on having a steady alliance. in effect, it would be like dividing a round into segments rather than one long stretch.

just some ideas from my pondering...i might post some more later.
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Unread 20 Dec 2006, 05:09   #37
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Re: Universe structure in general (will not affect r20)

Multiple shuffles would make gals simply intel gathering places and would destroy any teamwork for few benefits i could see.

Making in game alliance tools available for clusters will probably be needed though.
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Unread 20 Dec 2006, 10:54   #38
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Re: Universe structure in general (will not affect r20)

OK, something different: change the way BPs work so that members are randomly placed throughout the same cluster. This would go with smaller random gals and bigger BPs.
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Unread 20 Dec 2006, 14:28   #39
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Re: Universe structure in general (will not affect r20)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge
Logically:

2000 players = 40 galaxies

of the 2000 approximately 1500 will be in alliances of some description.

which in effect leaves 500 planets as targets that are completely free to hit.
Actually, I seem to remember Kal saying some time ago that only ~1000 players are actually in alliances. The rest play allianceless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge
The structure of a 50 planet galaxy will involve players from at least 5 allies and posibly more, if it is the case that only one planet in a 50 player gal is in a "top" allie one that cares not a damn for galaxy politics then that galaxy will be a roiding ground for them, purely on the basis that they wont need scans to check defence etc...
If there's 30 galaxies, I'd expect an average of 3-4 players from each alliance per galaxy. They'll have to work with their galmates - they won't have much choice.

Besides, I'm quite keen on Rob's proposal for overview access levels - i.e. if that player starts leaking info, some of their access might be disabled by the people running the galaxy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge
I doubt very much if with your proposed structure we would see galaxy attacks (one gal on another) and it would probably reduce the total number of attacks at all.
I'd still expect people to attack with their alliances, but the unallied players would have an opportunity to work together and attack as a unit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge
To take your idea to a logical conclusion you may as well have just one galaxy.

Or none.
I think you've misunderstood me. The idea is that new/unallied players have full access to the galaxy forum, etc, to meet people. Most alliances, especially training alliances, will be represented in each galaxy and so it should be fairly easy for a new player to get into one of these alliances. One of the biggest problems for new players at the moment is ending up in sink galaxies that just get bashed into oblivion, where all of the good players have exiled out. Hopefully we can avoid some of this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
50 planets per gal, assuming an initial signup of 1500 planets = 30 gals at max.
Doesnt this seem a little thin in terms of gal targets?
I don't think so. Gal raiding will change in nature: a top alliance won't (or at least shouldn't) try to hit an entire galaxy, they'll spread themselves across the top planets of 3-4 galaxies. If a smaller alliance decides to hit every planet in a galaxy, they'll only (logistically) be able to hit max. 1 galaxy per night.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lei~
I'd be game for furballs ideas, but I'd say you have to make those big gals more resembling to clusters than to gals. His ideas about the etas seem good but i wouldnt give ppl the chance to get the intel they are now getting through gal overview as that would give too much information out. Rather combine the functions of cluster and galaxies. Make ministers available but drop the gal status completely. To make up for this make it possible for alliance bcs to see who of their members got incomings. This would make some of the backstabbing obsolete.
This is partly the idea - the galaxy will be close to the size of a cluster while still having access to key parts of the game such as the gal forum and gal status.

As for your intel points, there would be Rob's proposal to restrict access to the overview. The galaxy status would remain unchanged, however, subject to the free planet limitations. Galaxies will have to work together, and even if it was chaos in the first round, people would work things out fairly quickly - just like in Round 1 of PA. I wouldn't want alliances to be able to see incomings, unless perhaps they could see them 1 tick after they launched (1 tick later than they appear on the galaxy status)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lei~
The alliance limits he propses seem very high for my eyes though. I'd rather see 50 man alliances than 100 man alliances. Though exceptions could be made for alliances further down the rankings.
I wanted to make sure that alliances could cope with the larger galaxies, and this seemed like the best way to do it. Alliances would find it easier to recruit players in these bigger galaxies, and hopefully the playerbase would increase anyway (a bit of advertising/word of mouth about the changes would obviously be handy).

Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenbo
there could be a cluster menu in-game with a forums and diplomacy etc. the galactic commander of each galaxy in the cluster could be an authority. if not all want to participate, there could be an option in which the ministers may choose to disable the cluster interface. otherwise, it could be used for organizing cluster attacks and defence. this could also be an option for players to choose between having an alliance or using the cluster.
I think this would make the game too complex and overwhelming for new players, as well as spreading talent too thin. You can't run a galaxy and cluster at the same time, and there seems to be a dearth of leaders in PA at the moment.
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Unread 20 Dec 2006, 16:47   #40
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Re: Universe structure in general (will not affect r20)

No clusters, they never work because people are too worried about thier own alliance to worrry about clusters.

Galaxies should be only 10 members to accomidate for the small playerbase. Up to 5 in a buddy pack allowing 5 or more randoms.

Also the self-exiling ability doesn't help for meeting new people.
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Unread 20 Dec 2006, 18:16   #41
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Re: Universe structure in general (will not affect r20)

abolish buddy packs totally. alliances kept as they are (playing with friends) and 100% random galaxies up to a limit of 15 planets per gal maximum (meeting new people)

imho :P
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 09:27   #42
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Re: Universe structure in general (will not affect r20)

I think one of the big questions that needs to be answered is this:

Can the game and the community support more than 2 loyalty groups?

In essence we require a minimum of 2:
1) people you know so you have some security
2a) people you don't know so you can meet them, bring them into the community and help the game grow.
2b) a mixture of people you know and people you don't know to add some additional security.

Whether the answer is 2a or 2b there is a minimum of 2 groups, can the game support having both 2a and 2b though? Certainly one of the complaints about the r20 cluster changes is that it will split loyalties to far - so should we refocus the game so there are only 2 core groups?
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 14:38   #43
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Re: Universe structure in general (will not affect r20)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
Can the game and the community support more than 2 loyalty groups?

In essence we require a minimum of 2:
1) people you know so you have some security
2a) people you don't know so you can meet them, bring them into the community and help the game grow.
2b) a mixture of people you know and people you don't know to add some additional security.

Whether the answer is 2a or 2b there is a minimum of 2 groups, can the game support having both 2a and 2b though? Certainly one of the complaints about the r20 cluster changes is that it will split loyalties to far - so should we refocus the game so there are only 2 core groups?
I believe that 2a is the right way to go, and that we need to change the game to having 2 core groups. There's not the playerbase to maintain any more than that.

Now, why do I think that everyone should go random as opposed to playing with their friends? It's because as much as I understand that people want to play with their friends, a buddypack set-up can't be relied on to create cohesive galaxies, even in large galaxies. They will be organised enough at the beginning to dominate the galaxy and select the ministers. This is a problem because some PA players are tossers and won't try to create a good galaxy where everyone can get involved. Sure, most of the players who post on the forums are the well-meaning types who always try to help out joe newbie. However, think about some of the players in your alliance (every alliance has them) who aren't quite so helpful or understanding. Those are the people who become GCs and then ruin their galaxies for every random planet in them. That needs to stop, and fully random is the way to go because of that.
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 15:16   #44
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Re: Universe structure in general (will not affect r20)

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
I believe that 2a is the right way to go, and that we need to change the game to having 2 core groups. There's not the playerbase to maintain any more than that.

Now, why do I think that everyone should go random as opposed to playing with their friends? It's because as much as I understand that people want to play with their friends, a buddypack set-up can't be relied on to create cohesive galaxies, even in large galaxies. They will be organised enough at the beginning to dominate the galaxy and select the ministers. This is a problem because some PA players are tossers and won't try to create a good galaxy where everyone can get involved. Sure, most of the players who post on the forums are the well-meaning types who always try to help out joe newbie. However, think about some of the players in your alliance (every alliance has them) who aren't quite so helpful or understanding. Those are the people who become GCs and then ruin their galaxies for every random planet in them. That needs to stop, and fully random is the way to go because of that.
I would be inclined to agree, and before everyone jumps in and says random is awful etc. - doesn;t that depend on the galaxy size, the galaxy tools, the alliance setup (defence eta advantage etc.)

The main reason for a 2b would be to give extra security to people so they don;t fele they are all alone. but that could also be done with 2a e.g. have failry large galaxies so you are likely to know someone in them, have a bigger eta advanateg for alliances. There are lots of ways of doing it.
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 15:25   #45
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Re: Universe structure in general (will not affect r20)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
The main reason for a 2b would be to give extra security to people so they don;t fele they are all alone. but that could also be done with 2a e.g. have failry large galaxies so you are likely to know someone in them, have a bigger eta advanateg for alliances. There are lots of ways of doing it.
That's part of the reasoning behind my earlier proposal, as refined by discussion earlier in this thread. Most alliances will have a couple of members in each galaxy, which would be little different from the r20 proposal for buddypacks anyway.
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 16:26   #46
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Re: Universe structure in general (will not affect r20)

I think you should keep the game as planets - galaxies - clusters but in addition think there should be new sign ups each week or two of a round that start in a brand new 'Universe'. New Universes can be only found by existing planets via some kind of scan, travel times to new universes take slightly longer than travelling within your own universe.

Alliances could then choose what week they wish to sign up so their members remain close. At the same time new planets will have time to get used to the game and grow as they would not be the target for all alliances at the same time. In such a system it is likely that alliances would recruit from their own universe giving them access to all levels of alliance play.

I just feel that is all very well allowing people to play together in groups but in reality not everyone has enough friends to sign up with and for these peopl its very hard to start a new game, make friends, become successful and then wat to return to the game in its current state.
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 17:35   #47
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Re: Universe structure in general (will not affect r20)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrashTester
I think you should keep the game as planets - galaxies - clusters but in addition think there should be new sign ups each week or two of a round that start in a brand new 'Universe'. New Universes can be only found by existing planets via some kind of scan, travel times to new universes take slightly longer than travelling within your own universe.
only slightly?

Quote:
Originally Posted by crashtester
Alliances could then choose what week they wish to sign up so their members remain close. At the same time new planets will have time to get used to the game and grow as they would not be the target for all alliances at the same time. In such a system it is likely that alliances would recruit from their own universe giving them access to all levels of alliance play.
can you be a bit clearer here please, not sure what you're trying to say

Quote:
Originally Posted by crashtester
I just feel that is all very well allowing people to play together in groups but in reality not everyone has enough friends to sign up with and for these peopl its very hard to start a new game, make friends, become successful and then wat to return to the game in its current state.
when you apply to an alliance you let your reputation speak for itself. if your reputation isn't good enough to get in that alliance, you don't deserve a place there, and should aim for something more in tune with your history (or lack thereof). nb. was using a generic 'you'.
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 18:56   #48
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Re: Universe structure in general (will not affect r20)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny
only slightly?
More than slightly but not so much that it makes inter universal travel pointless. I am out of touch with game specifics so wouldnt want to comment on the actual travel time.


Quote:
can you be a bit clearer here please, not sure what you're trying to say
Im not sure I will explain what I am thinking too well but I will have a go.

If a round were to last say 5 months with new signups taken every 2 weeks then it would be possible for an alliance to choose at which of the 10 signups in the round they wish to sign up their members so they are all within the same universe. They could do this to either try to avoid the bigger alliances or to just start playing the game when its a better time for all their players (perhaps avoiding exams, holidays, etc).

I see it that the galaxy/cluster system would remain the same and should contain both private groups and randoms with the onus being on galaxies looking after their own thus allowing casual inexperienced players to join in the fun.

I personally feel that there would be no need for alliance ETA bonuses in this system, having some planets even within the same alliance who have greater ETAs than others to reach a target is a good thing!

I dont feel it is beneficial to Planetarion if large groups of players can all locate together and dominate and this would mix up nicely each new universe and set things up nicely for some good battles. Alliances members would be close enough to each other to help out and if a universe stagnates the option to move into new universes and take on established alliances will spice things up.

Quote:
when you apply to an alliance you let your reputation speak for itself. if your reputation isn't good enough to get in that alliance, you don't deserve a place there, and should aim for something more in tune with your history (or lack thereof). nb. was using a generic 'you'.
I have to go now so will reply a bit more tomorrow. nite.
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Unread 22 Dec 2006, 15:56   #49
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Re: Universe structure in general (will not affect r20)

In the immediate future, I don't really think anything needs to change.

I hope the reintroduction of "proper" clusters will give some old-school influence into the round--cluster alliances were fun, and good for networking.

The main issue is galaxy size and composition. I'm personally in favor of private galaxies, but I don't think purely private galaxies are a good thing. You'd have to toss in a handful of randoms or something.
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Unread 23 Dec 2006, 08:48   #50
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Re: Universe structure in general (will not affect r20)

Same galaxy settings, random galaxies, private alliances.

When all the GC's in a cluster agree to start a cluster alliance, that cluster alliance gets posted on alliance rankings and actually becomes a contender for the top ranks. Obviously, the GC's of the galaxies are the cluster HC's.

When this happens, planets' loyalties with their private alliances will be tested in that cluster alliance. If private alliances start f*cking over their members, these planets can drop their private alliance memberships and will have their cluster alliances to fall back on.

GC's in these cluster alliances can also exile and/or farm inactives (of course after all GC's voting on it), etc, just like privates alliance would/could.

To keep these cluster alliances from being uber superpowers, limit galaxies to 10-12 planets and clusters of maybe 6 or 7 galaxies.

I like clusters. Clusters are very traditional of the game and has been proven to be very effective if utilized correctly. Besides, GC's can also practice their charm by getting involved in alliance politics and politics within their neighboring galaxies.
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