Suicide bomber's best friend commits career suicide...

[skiddy]

So, Dr Jenny Tonge was sacked today from the Lib Dem's front row for basically saying she empathised with suicide bombers in Israel and would have thought about becoming one 'had she been in their situation'.

Personally I think sacking her is slightly harsh. Admittedly she may have upset every Jewish person on the face of the planet by saying this but even as a politician she has as much right to express her opinion - as to all of us.

Anyway, the fact that she has been sacked is irrelevant - it's happened and she's probably not one of the most popular people around at the moment.

What I would like to know is your thoughts on the suicide bombers. I don't care whether you think the situation in Israel is called for or not - go make another thread to discuss that or bump up one of the many other ones.

What I want to know is, trying your best to put yourself in a Palestinians frame of mind, can you understand why someone would go to those lengths and pay the ultimate price to make their mark in what is quickly becoming a globally discussed issue.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by skiddy

Personally I think sacking her is slightly harsh. Admittedly she may have upset every Jewish person on the face of the planet by saying this but even as a politician she has as much right to express her opinion - as to all of us.

As a front bencher she was a representation of the party; anything that she said could reflect badly on the party. She needed to be 'removed' so to disassociated the party from her words, which were politically damaging.

[edit]

And you can see why the suicide bombers do it, given there's no way that any other method would stop the US sponsored Israel.

[ChubbyChecker]

The clever people brainwash the dumb people into believing that they're actually doing a clever thing by blowing themselves up.

Of course none of the clever people ever blow themselves up.

[Cynical Oracle]

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

As a front bencher she was a representation of the party; anything that she said could reflect badly on the party. She needed to be 'removed' so to disassociated the party from her words, which were politically damaging.

[edit]

And you can see why the suicide bombers do it, given there's no way that any other method would stop the US sponsored Israel.

[skiddy]

MrL - I can totally understand why they sacked her, I just think it was slightly harsh. At least she can still represent her constituency from the back benches.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by skiddy

MrL - I can totally understand why they sacked her, I just think it was slightly harsh. At least she can still represent her constituency from the back benches.

I think it was perfectly legitimate.

And you're extremely naive if you believe politicians represent their constituancy any more (except on a purely local level; dealing with problems, that kind of thing), rather than their party.

Not that it matters unless you're in Labour, because of the rather large majority.

[skiddy]

I was more meaning that at least they didn't tell her to **** off completely :/

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by skiddy

I was more meaning that at least they didn't tell her to **** off completely :/

They'd never do that, as that would force a byelection.

[IncubusGod]

I can understand why suicide bombers do it, there aren't many weapons they can use against the mighty Isreal and it's sponser the U.S.
Unless I was actually IN that situation I wouldnt know if I'd be one or not. I'd definatly want to kill isreali's.
I don't know if anyone can truely answer that question as you never really know how you'll react in such a situation untill you experience it.

[Proteus]

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

They'd never do that, as that would force a byelection.

It would?

[NEWSBOT3]

it would.

[Proteus]

Originally Posted by NEWSBOT3

it would.

How? I wasn't aware that firing someone from a party forced a by-election. If it did, then surely there'd be by-elections every time someone switched parties? That would get very inconvenient.

And I don't think there's any way to kick an MP out of Parliament (except perhaps Treason or something).

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by Proteus

How? I wasn't aware that firing someone from a party forced a by-election. If it did, then surely there'd be by-elections every time someone switched parties? That would get very inconvenient.

And I don't think there's any way to kick an MP out of Parliament (except perhaps Treason or something).

It was easier to say 'A byelection' rather than explaining about the party losing momentum in the seat and in parliament, and having to pick a new candidate come the GE, as the end result is identical.

[Tactitus]

Killing people is a good way to get their attention, but I've never seen much evidence that it changes their minds. Oddly, it seems to piss them off (the survivors, anyway).

Slightly more interesting is its effect on heretofore uninterested third parties, some of whom seem to automatically side with those committing the suicide attacks. I mean, no one could possibly do such a thing unless they were being horribly oppressed and there was just no other way, right?

[NEWSBOT3]

its not particulary about the bombings themselves.

typically, the people that do it are in poverty, and and very religious.

they could just as easily train them to take on the israelis (or anyone else) with guns etc, but that has the problem of being a sustained and supported action, whereas as a suicide bombing is harder to hide from the 'enemy' point of view, affects enemy morale , and is a one-time event.

its a case of , smuggling a single use bomb, is easier than doing the same with guns etc which tends to require more of a support network, and is more visible.

its just a matter of tactical necessciry.

sure, there are other ways, but those tend to be easier to prevent, and easier to detect.

[Jammers]

Suicide bombers only let Israel justify their continued occupation to the world. A much better option would be to hold mass protest rallies in Tel Aviv\Jerusalem, and hope that some Israeli soldier with an itchy trigger finger opens fire on the crowd.
They still get martyed, but they can actually achieve something other than killing a few civillians.

[acropolis]

i could see myself doing a suicide bombing. i'd do it against the palestinian leadership tho.

killing israelis has been done to death. unoriginal shit.

[Tactitus]

Originally Posted by NEWSBOT3

its not particulary about the bombings themselves.

typically, the people that do it are in poverty, and and very religious.

Typically not that poor; devout, but not fanatical. FYI: an interesting article on suicide bombers.

they could just as easily train them to take on the israelis (or anyone else) with guns etc, but that has the problem of being a sustained and supported action, whereas as a suicide bombing is harder to hide from the 'enemy' point of view, affects enemy morale , and is a one-time event.

Plus it wouldn't play as well in the court of world opinion. Dropping a few rockets or morter rounds into a school yard just makes you look a bit like a cowardly killer; but strap on some dynamite and blow up a school bus and suddently you're a principled martyr.

[Zar]

Originally Posted by Jammers

Suicide bombers only let Israel justify their continued occupation to the world. A much better option would be to hold mass protest rallies in Tel Aviv\Jerusalem, and hope that some Israeli soldier with an itchy trigger finger opens fire on the crowd.
They still get martyed, but they can actually achieve something other than killing a few civillians.

ha - and you think all the tank shelling, and f16 bombing civilians has made a damn difference to american opinion of israel?

Zar

[Zar]

Originally Posted by acropolis

i could see myself doing a suicide bombing. i'd do it against the palestinian leadership tho.

killing israelis has been done to death. unoriginal shit.

you know ive always hoped that the suicide bombers would coordiante themselves better. One sucide bomber can do a lot of damage, but often he is caught before he can fully position himself. If they could coordinate themselves better, and have a few more people bombing at the same time - maybe they could launch themselves at Sharon, - one of them is bound to blow him up.

Either that or i would encourage them to come to the usa, and a couple of them attempt to blow up bush.

Zar

[Jammers]

Originally Posted by Zar

ha - and you think all the tank shelling, and f16 bombing civilians has made a damn difference to american opinion of israel?

Zar

Like I said, the Israelis can justify it by saying they are going after terrorists. If the Palestinians stopped doing suicide bombings the Israelis wouldn't be able to justify the occupation.

[Intrepid00]

You know whats funny about sucide bombers, when they screw up and nothing but themselves get blown up. No second chances there bub.

[Kurashima]

6 Months ago , Cherie Blair said

"I understand the frustration that drives them to being suicide bombers"

The Labour back benchers and front benchers were ****ing quiet then. The tories (whats left of them) and the Lib Dems gave her absoloute dogs abuse.

But you see, Cherie isnt an elected MP, shes just a liability married to one. So thats all good.

[Evergreen]

Same shit different day with politics isn't it?

We all know each one has the potential and will think of something stupid and every so often they'll say it.

In the end all it detracts from is the hotter issues.

It's like laying down dead donkeys to cover up issues that are still unresolved.

[Tactitus]

Originally Posted by Zar

you know ive always hoped that the suicide bombers would coordiante themselves better. One sucide bomber can do a lot of damage, but often he is caught before he can fully position himself. If they could coordinate themselves better, and have a few more people bombing at the same time - maybe they could launch themselves at Sharon, - one of them is bound to blow him up.

It now appears that bribery is the way to get rid of Sharon. Once again the efficacy of nonviolent measures shows us the way.

Either that or i would encourage them to come to the usa, and a couple of them attempt to blow up bush.

Yes, that would certainly do wonders for the Palestinian cause.

[NEWSBOT3]

everyone has demons in politics. if you keep enough people silent you do fine, if you dont, your screwed.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by Zar

you know ive always hoped that the suicide bombers would coordiante themselves better. One sucide bomber can do a lot of damage, but often he is caught before he can fully position himself. If they could coordinate themselves better, and have a few more people bombing at the same time - maybe they could launch themselves at Sharon, - one of them is bound to blow him up.

Either that or i would encourage them to come to the usa, and a couple of them attempt to blow up bush.

Zar

What do you have against the innocent people of israel?

I bet you support bombing civilian targets, and thought Dresden was a great laugh.

[Zar]

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

What do you have against the innocent people of israel?

I bet you support bombing civilian targets, and thought Dresden was a great laugh.

". If they could coordinate themselves better, and have a few more people bombing at the same time - maybe they could launch themselves at Sharon, - one of them is bound to blow him up"

read that again

Zar

[Zar]

Originally Posted by Jammers

Like I said, the Israelis can justify it by saying they are going after terrorists. If the Palestinians stopped doing suicide bombings the Israelis wouldn't be able to justify the occupation.

well.... unfortunately some of the "greater" powers in this world, couldnt give a shit about humility. Even though iraq opened its borders to inspections, it didn't stop the usa and britian from "occupying" it. You honestly think that a country like the usa...cares if palestine was to become angel like? Quite honestly against all better thought, a country that really cared for peace would not continue to supply and support a country like Israel.

Agreed sucide-bombing isnt the best thing to do, however i doubt that the world would do much if palestinians didnt suicide bomb. The usa would continue to support israel, continue to allow israel to practice apartheid tactics, and continue to let israel exploit and humiliate palestinian people.

Zar

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by Zar

". If they could coordinate themselves better, and have a few more people bombing at the same time - maybe they could launch themselves at Sharon, - one of them is bound to blow him up"

read that again

Zar

Sharon's not going to be standing by himself in a field.

[Zar]

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

Sharon's not going to be standing by himself in a field.

thats most unfortunate

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by Zar

thats most unfortunate

So, unfortunately, some innocent people will have to die.

Shame, eh?

[Hecate]

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

So, unfortunately, some innocent people will have to die.

Shame, eh?

I don't condone the killing of innocents in any way, but the brutal truth is that every war has it's casualties. For the palestinians, being a relatively small and poor group of people, suicide bombings etc are the easiest and most effective ways to fight Israel. As Sun Tzu said, you don't go about fighting a superior enemy head on, ie. the palestinians would be crushed if they all just took up arms and tried to invade Jerusalem or whatever.
Also, if I'm allowed to drift a bit from the recent debate, it's funny how Israel can practise it's apartheid and discriminatory policies, but no other country can. For example only jewish people (born of a jewish mother and a jewish father) are allowed Israeli citizenship. If any other country enforced such a law the jews would be first in line to protest. In addition they are allowed to bomb and shoot the palestinians and find colonies in their territories, but when eg. the serbs started such an ethnic cleansing campaign they were immediately internationally condemned and bombed.
One standard for the jews, another for everyone else.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by Hecate

One standard for the jews, another for everyone else.

There's a difference between knowing something occurs and supporting it's happening.

And you're a tad biased over the 'one standard for the jews' thing (but hey, what did we expect?), given similar treatment has been enjoyed by Russia and the Republic of Ireland, to name but two.

[Baron Morte]

Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker

The clever people brainwash the dumb people into believing that they're actually doing a clever thing by blowing themselves up.

Of course none of the clever people ever blow themselves up.

If they did that then the cycle would be over.
Who would convice the others to do it?

Thats why they wont blow themselves.
Humm, blow themselves :wink:

[Shr00m]

Suicide bomber should target Arabs as well. After all it was their fellow arabs the decide to invade israel that led to Israel taking all of palestine, although it might have happened anyways. It is the arabs who still force palestinian refuges to live in refugee camps, over 50 years later. Maybe the palestinians should get angry about their arab neighbors who use them as political pawns to distract their populaces from the corruption in their own governemnts.

I'm really out of practice at this. That was shit.

I would enjoy it if Israel round up all the palestinains and slaughtered them, and then the arabs and jew fight a nice big war, and kill eachother and we can have all the nice oil and stuff with having to deal with them. Would anyone really miss either side?

[NEWSBOT3]

to be fair, its technically our fault, that is, we put israel there when we had no right to, just because we felt guilty at letting several million of them get gassed.

[Dante Hicks]

If Britain was invaded and we were at a position where political and/or military moves were largely futile, I might consider being a suicide bomber.

I don't think the Palestenians are at that stage though. Co-ordinated strikes, etc would probably be more effective.

[Shr00m]

I would just go live somewhere else. neither or Britian and palestine strike me as particularly pleasant places to live climate wise.