Exile system is broken

[Cowmando]

It has been pretty much ever since it was introduced. It rewards those who exploit it while punishing those who just want to play with people putting in a similer level of effort as they are. The addition of the 1-4 tick delay which seems heavily bias towards 4 ticks is largely ineffective at stopping exploitation and makes the punishment harder on those who just want to play a game which a lot of us pay for. As the bias towards 4 tick delay and picking certain times of day still make the system predictable for those looking to exploit it. For those just trying to find a place to play a lot can happen in 4 ticks and usually your fleet will be required for something it that period so if you land in a graveyard gal you are stuck until your fleets get home.

Then there is the cost of exile formula, which is basicly is unaffordable unless you stop playing the game which I and many others pay for. For example I landed in a gal which looked ok 9 people on irc active looking value/score/roids, within 2 days I was the only one in gal chan. When inc showed up I was the only one to send def and had no one to around to coordinate said def with. Then it cost me 3 day's resources to get out, that is 3 days of essentually not being able to play the game. The whole your contributed score/ave contributed score multiplyer is also insane. If you land in a grave yard gal having launched an attack during the 4 ticks you have to wait to exile and it lands and you gain even a moderate amount of score your exile again becomes unaffordable. This multiplyer essentually makes it more expencive to exile out of inactive gals. When this multiplyer was introduced PA had a lot more players and I think the idea was it would provide resources to training gals which no longer exist. While I understand that it has to cost enough that people can't just keep exiling until they land in the gal they want. It has to be affordable enough to allow people to actually play the game. As it stand this is only the case if you essentually don't play until you land in an acceptable gal, then if you are unlikely like me and the gal turns out to be more inactive than it first seems, it pretty much means you have no choice but late start.

The whole exile system needs a review as it is not fit for purpose. It's purpose to my knowledge has been to allow players to play with people putting in a similer amount of effort. IMO having a exile system which forfills it's purpose is more important than one which is more difficult to exploit. It is the nature of the game that what ever system is used people will work out a way to exploit it. Not entirely sure how to fix it, but first it has to be affordable for people to play while trying to find a gal, the max an exile should cost is a day's resources. exiling out of the bottom say 15% of gals should be free and instant as these gals are entirely non-functioning and at no point will they recover. There should either be a delay in exile or your fleets have to be home, not both. If stopping exploitation is your priority then remove the requirement for fleets to be home and make the max delay longer and the exile tick more random.

[Killeah]

You have an overall valid point, the exile system leaves a lot of room for improvement, however there's a few details in your post I would like to contest

Originally Posted by Cowmando

It has been pretty much ever since it was introduced. It rewards those who exploit it while punishing those who just want to play with people putting in a similer level of effort as they are.

While it indeed is punishing to those who just want to find "a gal" and not "a certain gal", it's likewise for exploiters also. It is not rewarding in any way, unless you land in that specific galaxy, and the road there is dodgy at best, and there's absolutely no guarantee you will succeed. True you can improve the odds, but they come at a cost.

Originally Posted by Cowmando

As the bias towards 4 tick delay and picking certain times of day still make the system predictable for those looking to exploit it. For those just trying to find a place to play a lot can happen in 4 ticks and usually your fleet will be required for something it that period so if you land in a graveyard gal you are stuck until your fleets get home.

I don't buy the Bias theory, it could be you've been the target of a statistic outrage, such happen, as a comparable medium, he's a summary of my exile stats:

11/08/14 22:00:18 75 Your planet moved sucessfully.
11/08/14 20:02:40 73 Your planet will be exiled on one of the next 4 ticks.
11/08/14 19:00:20 72 Your planet moved sucessfully.
11/08/14 16:53:16 69 Your planet will be exiled on one of the next 4 ticks.
11/08/14 16:53:02 69 The password is not correct, no self-exile took place
11/08/14 16:00:19 69 Your planet moved sucessfully.
11/08/14 13:52:57 66 Your planet will be exiled on one of the next 4 ticks.
11/08/14 13:00:25 66 Your planet moved sucessfully.
11/08/14 11:46:14 64 Your planet will be exiled on one of the next 4 ticks.
11/08/14 11:00:23 64 Your planet moved sucessfully.
11/08/14 07:53:52 60 Your planet will be exiled on one of the next 4 ticks.
11/08/14 07:00:19 60 Your planet moved sucessfully.
11/08/14 02:36:56 55 Your planet will be exiled on one of the next 4 ticks.
11/08/14 00:00:18 53 Your planet moved sucessfully.
10/08/14 20:04:46 49 Your planet will be exiled on one of the next 4 ticks.
10/08/14 20:00:15 49 Your planet moved sucessfully.
10/08/14 16:23:47 45 Your planet will be exiled on one of the next 4 ticks.

And sorry to say, but if you prioritize sending fleets instead of exiling well then you're self applying the problem, which is btw the same for any exploiter, allthough I doubt they would do that,

Originally Posted by Cowmando

Then there is the cost of exile formula, which is basicly is unaffordable unless you stop playing the game which I and many others pay for. For example I landed in a gal which looked ok 9 people on irc active looking value/score/roids, within 2 days I was the only one in gal chan. When inc showed up I was the only one to send def and had no one to around to coordinate said def with. Then it cost me 3 day's resources to get out, that is 3 days of essentually not being able to play the game. The whole your contributed score/ave contributed score multiplyer is also insane. If you land in a grave yard gal having launched an attack during the 4 ticks you have to wait to exile and it lands and you gain even a moderate amount of score your exile again becomes unaffordable. This multiplyer essentually makes it more expencive to exile out of inactive gals.

Again, these issues are the same for exploiters, there's absolutely no difference, in fact, those exiling for "a certain gal" have a potential longer stay in undesired galaxies, as the one you describe, than the player looking for a "an active gal"
And the solution for raised costs are not to stop playing, but to do a 24 tick planet reset and continue your exiling.

Originally Posted by Cowmando

When this multiplyer was introduced PA had a lot more players and I think the idea was it would provide resources to training gals which no longer exist. While I understand that it has to cost enough that people can't just keep exiling until they land in the gal they want. It has to be affordable enough to allow people to actually play the game. As it stand this is only the case if you essentually don't play until you land in an acceptable gal, then if you are unlikely like me and the gal turns out to be more inactive than it first seems, it pretty much means you have no choice but late start.

I'm quite certain that the playerbase was pretty much as it is now, as I recollect the latest increase happened 3 rounds ago. And again if you stop exiling when you can't afford it, at say tick 120. you're skipping the chance of getting a desired galaxy for 200 ticks, imo a waste and points at a lack of dedication towards the goal. Reset your planet, deal with it, or as my superior
at work would say, "suck it up" and "crack on"

Originally Posted by Cowmando

The whole exile system needs a review as it is not fit for purpose. It's purpose to my knowledge has been to allow players to play with people putting in a similer amount of effort. IMO having a exile system which forfills it's purpose is more important than one which is more difficult to exploit. It is the nature of the game that what ever system is used people will work out a way to exploit it. Not entirely sure how to fix it, but first it has to be affordable for people to play while trying to find a gal.

You're absolutely right, however the exile system is as it is due to other parts of the community whining about abuse. And as all general rules being in PA or the law, it intends to address an issue created by a few, but it will impact everyone, as you can't do case by case rules, the MH team have shown that at several occasions.

Originally Posted by Cowmando

the max an exile should cost is a day's resources. exiling out of the bottom say 15% of gals should be free and instant as these gals are entirely non-functioning and at no point will they recover. There should either be a delay in exile or your fleets have to be home, not both. If stopping exploitation is your priority then remove the requirement for fleets to be home and make the max delay longer and the exile tick more random.

I don't think this will address the exploitation, however I see a better setup for people who just want an active galaxy. which is fine

[Influence]

The purpose of self-exiling isn't to find a gal, it is to give you an opportunity to get out of a gal that really doesn't fit you (for whatever reason). The ability to find a gal through the exiling system is exactly what's wrong with the whole system.

Don't get me wrong, i've (ab)used the system in the past to find my gal (succesfully). And while initial cost might have been high, the return i got from being in a proper gal was so great the return i got on my investment was stellar. If I ever got such a return on my RL investments i could have been retired at age 20.

The system that the game provides to play with people putting in a similar amount of effort is through the use of buddypacks. That way you can gather around you 3(+1) others that should match well with you. If you knowingly go random you have to realise you also take a chance on landing in a shitty gal, imho you should be glad the game provides you with such a cheap way to relocate. There are plenty of games out there where a comparable relocation like that would cost you a full credit. Seriously, in the grand scheme of things even 3 days worth of resources is cheap as hell, especially since the only worthwhile time to even try to self-exile is during the time your income isn't too high.

[Cowmando]

Yeah guess I have been unlucky on the time my exiles take then.

didn't know the formula had been recently changed (only came back last round after not playing about 15) was just trying to think of a logical reason for fast growing player in small/slow growning gal being such a large acumulater on the cost while rewarding the small score growth exploiter. Surely the exile system exists to help that fast growing player find a suitable home, not make it so they have to start over.

the thing is the people exploiting are not really effected in the way you say as they do not start playing until they land in their desired gal with core research and little/no roids you can easilly afford the cost of exiles so long as you don't start playing until you land in your desired gal. OK the does force them to not play for a period, which is a punishment but it is now where near that suffered by those who play while exiling. Especially as the exploiter has an end goal so knows exactly when to stop exiling so won't start growing value until end goal is reached. Because of their low value/score growth these exiles are infinatly affordable, the only thing really slowing them down is the 1-4 ticks and coordinating with the gal they want to land in. It is the contributed gal score/mean gal score multiplyer which plays a big part in screwing over people just looking for a gal on the same level as they are and helps the exploiters.

As I said somewhere in the last post; IMO an exile system that forfills it's purpose, yet is exploitable is more desireable than one that does not forfill it's purpose yet is unexploitable. If not get rid of it completely then no one can exploit it.

[TheoDD]

Originally Posted by Cowmando

Yeah guess I have been unlucky on the time my exiles take then.

didn't know the formula had been recently changed (only came back last round after not playing about 15) was just trying to think of a logical reason for fast growing player in small/slow growning gal being such a large acumulater on the cost while rewarding the small score growth exploiter. Surely the exile system exists to help that fast growing player find a suitable home, not make it so they have to start over.

the thing is the people exploiting are not really effected in the way you say as they do not start playing until they land in their desired gal with core research and little/no roids you can easilly afford the cost of exiles so long as you don't start playing until you land in your desired gal. OK the does force them to not play for a period, which is a punishment but it is now where near that suffered by those who play while exiling. Especially as the exploiter has an end goal so knows exactly when to stop exiling so won't start growing value until end goal is reached. Because of their low value/score growth these exiles are infinatly affordable, the only thing really slowing them down is the 1-4 ticks and coordinating with the gal they want to land in. It is the contributed gal score/mean gal score multiplyer which plays a big part in screwing over people just looking for a gal on the same level as they are and helps the exploiters.

As I said somewhere in the last post; IMO an exile system that forfills it's purpose, yet is exploitable is more desireable than one that does not forfill it's purpose yet is unexploitable. If not get rid of it completely then no one can exploit it.

you are wrong, even with no roids and no value what so ever, exiles get HILARIOUS expensive and fast. Last round i was exiling, and after some 6 - 7 attempts and landing in your galaxy, it cost me 4.7mill x3 with no value or roids to move on. So i was kinda left without an option but to start playing or resetting to continue.

[Mzyxptlk]

Originally Posted by Killeah

11/08/14 07:00:19 60 Your planet moved sucessfully.
11/08/14 02:36:56 55 Your planet will be exiled on one of the next 4 ticks.

Bug detected.

[Cowmando]

Not sure how that works theo accoding to the formula if we assume you had 100k value (high for someone with no rocks keeping their value low) then for your 7th exile to cost 4.7mil of each then your contibuted score/mean gal contributed score must have been approx √10. Meaning your contibuted score to the gal you exiled from was about 3x the mean gal score (assuming your planet was paid). I guess that is assuming the formula in the manual is the correct one which I guess it is totally plausable that it isn't.

EDIT: maybe the formula in the manual is wrong it would make far more sence if that multiplyer was the other way up. In which case it may not be as broken as I thought.

[Killeah]

It does get quite expensive, even with no value/score.

As you can see below


12/08/14 17:02:45 94 Reset Commenced.
12/08/14 17:01:49 94 Planet reset mail sent.
12/08/14 12:00:24 89 Your planet moved sucessfully.
12/08/14 09:55:14 86 Your planet will be exiled on one of the next 4 ticks.
12/08/14 09:00:23 86 Your planet moved sucessfully.
12/08/14 08:08:24 85 Your planet will be exiled on one of the next 4 ticks.
12/08/14 08:07:34 85
- The self exile requires 769301.9 metal; you only have 712928.


Exile number #9 were almost 800k each, and after that I could afford 2 more, I think the last amount was 3.5 mill each at the 12th exile, the only choice left was to planet reset.

Bear in mind that with no roids to keep your value down, comes little income each tick, so you have a smaller pool.

Another variable is the overall score/value of galaxy, the price does go up accordingly, I believe my 7th exile was cheaper than the 6th due to a much higher overall score in the first galaxy.

[Cowmando]

TBH a large part of my issue was the formula in the manual, which I am now convinced is wrong. I still think exiles are to expencive just to find a moderatly active gal (I am not look for a gal likely to get #1 just one which will actually communicate).

[ManiacMagic]

maybe gal activity should be rewarded in the exile system ... planets with more activity in the 10 planet range (looking for 11) should probably be rewarded first IF you are self exiling ... reward for playing harder ... no one not even noobs want to get stuck in that bottom inactive set of gals.

[Plaguuu]

Imo there should be scanner gals that you can choose to join upon signup, so all of them inactive scanners who dont wanna play get to the same gal at once instead of getting exiled around from gals who dont want em. (and the scanner gals shouldnt be in exile bracket)

[Cowmando]

hmmm both good Ideas. I like the gal activity one maybe some kind of your mean logged in time Vs gal mean logged in time could introduce a level of bias into where you land, but a strong random element should remain. Opt in scanner gals is a great idea, maybe with a sperate ranking list for them to compete.

Also worked out that I miss interperated the meaning of the formula.

[ManiacMagic]

I still think it would be interesting to make a new way of scanning ...


1. When you have the scan it works ... up until Incoming scan, then your dissies and amps come into effect ... this would get rid of the need for people to dedicate entire rounds to scanning and allow more people to have more ships and really play ... if you have inc scan you want to build amps/dissies to see fakes etc ... other than that you have a scan it works. we waste so much time on scans and for a small ally it isnt practical to have a planet dedicated to scans. This would still reward dis whores who can fake to their hearts content and would possibly make dis whore rounds better, as they wouldnt have to build as many being that there wont be a high level of amp whores since scanners will be playing normal.

[ManiacMagic]

so basically dissies/amps are meaningless except for incoming scans .... meaning they play into your faking etc and still allow for fun that way

could also have a preq for amps ... ie au takes 10 amps+research ... then after that you need no more amps unless u effectively want to inc scan.

[ManiacMagic]

the only draw back for this ... is the 1 or 2 pure unscannable xans in the uni each round ... we will now know their ships but they still get to fake anyways .... and more scanners get to play (you think at least 1 scanner per ally)