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Unread 8 Jan 2005, 13:14   #101
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Re: [Controversial Discussion] GOD

just out of interest, do all you people who don't believe in god just think he is nonexistent until proven to exist... OR do you think that he definitely doesn't exist and there is no chance whatsoever (even the tiniest tiniest chance) that he might?
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Unread 8 Jan 2005, 13:16   #102
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Re: [Controversial Discussion] GOD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
just out of interest, do all you people who don't believe in god just think he is nonexistent until proven to exist... OR do you think that he definitely doesn't exist and there is no chance whatsoever (even the tiniest tiniest chance) that he might?
I'm an agnostic at heart, simply because doubt is always the way forward. However, given the supreme lack of evidence, it's a fair assumption to say that god does not exist.
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Unread 8 Jan 2005, 13:16   #103
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Re: [Controversial Discussion] GOD

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Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
It's perfectly possible to physically prove god exists if he sent down fire and brimstone. Like in the OT.
Do you honestly mean to tell me that if fire and brimstone were to fall out of the sky and wipe out a city, you would suddenly belive in God? I doubt it.



Can we please stop slagging off people's beliefs. Comments such as: 'laughing on the internet folks' and 'to belive 1 being made the universe is just total bollocks' are not helpful. If you do not believe what I belive, you have every right to try to pusuade me otherwise, why would anyone what someone else to waste their lives believing something that is not true? Feel free to tell me that you disagree with me but to tell me that what I belive is 'bollocks' or to laugh at my beliefs - my reason for living, is extremely childish and destroys any chance of a decent intelligent discussion. Thank you.
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Unread 8 Jan 2005, 13:18   #104
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Re: [Controversial Discussion] GOD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
just out of interest, do all you people who don't believe in god just think he is nonexistent until proven to exist... OR do you think that he definitely doesn't exist and there is no chance whatsoever (even the tiniest tiniest chance) that he might?
That'll be the second option for me.
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Unread 8 Jan 2005, 13:19   #105
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Re: [Controversial Discussion] GOD

Quote:
Originally Posted by cycle o path
Do you honestly mean to tell me that if fire and brimstone were to fall out of the sky and wipe out a city, you would suddenly belive in God? I doubt it.
seems pretty conclusive to me, dude
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Unread 8 Jan 2005, 13:25   #106
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Re: [Controversial Discussion] GOD

Quote:
Originally Posted by cycle o path
Can we please stop slagging off people's beliefs. Comments such as: 'laughing on the internet folks' and 'to belive 1 being made the universe is just total bollocks' are not helpful. If you do not believe what I belive, you have every right to try to pusuade me otherwise, why would anyone what someone else to waste their lives believing something that is not true? Feel free to tell me that you disagree with me but to tell me that what I belive is 'bollocks' or to laugh at my beliefs - my reason for living, is extremely childish and destroys any chance of a decent intelligent discussion. Thank you.
I concur with this persons statement. Like I said in my post above, if people want to believe in 'god' and a religion, then it's fine by me, I don't have a problem with it, I respect it totally in fact.

You can't have an intelligent and reasoned discussion such on things if you don't respect the other persons beliefs. By the same token however, they have to respect the fact that you don't believe in their religion and you think their beliefs are wrong. This is where the intelligent and reasoned discussion comes in.

At the end of the day though, we'll all just agree to disagree, and that'll be that.
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Unread 8 Jan 2005, 13:27   #107
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Re: [Controversial Discussion] GOD

Quote:
Originally Posted by cycle o path
Do you honestly mean to tell me that if fire and brimstone were to fall out of the sky and wipe out a city, you would suddenly belive in God? I doubt it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
seems pretty conclusive to me, dude
I'd believe that a large meter just hit.
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Unread 8 Jan 2005, 13:27   #108
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Re: [Controversial Discussion] GOD

Quote:
Originally Posted by cycle o path
Do you honestly mean to tell me that if fire and brimstone were to fall out of the sky and wipe out a city, you would suddenly belive in God? I doubt it.
If fire and brimstone were to fall from the sky, if George Bush's wife turned into a pillar of salt, if I beheld as he opened the sixth seal and there was a great earthquake, and there was no other explanation, then it shall be taken as evidence of something we don't know and dealt with accordingly. If the result is 'god', then so be it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cycle o path
Can we please stop slagging off people's beliefs.
Quote:
Science offers no more credible alternative
I'm sorry if you don't find this amusing, but given the amount of evidence that anything that approaches scientific theory has going for it, this opinion is laughable. Fine, say that evolution was guided by god's hand; fine, say that the opening of Genesis is a metaphor for the big bang. But to deny the findings of science as incredible, that takes a specific kind of ignorance.
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Unread 8 Jan 2005, 13:28   #109
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Re: [Controversial Discussion] GOD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Belgarath The Sorcerer
That'll be the second option for me.
see, thats what i have a problem with... obviously, if you just want to look at the evidence, there is no actual PROOF that god exists. However the very concept of god can never actually be disproved, seeing as by definition god is "beyond our understanding" I don't understand how we can ever rule out his existence entirely.
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Unread 8 Jan 2005, 13:30   #110
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Re: [Controversial Discussion] GOD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
see, thats what i have a problem with... obviously, if you just want to look at the evidence, there is no actual PROOF that god exists. However the very concept of god can never actually be disproved, seeing as by definition god is "beyond our understanding" I don't understand how we can ever rule out his existence entirely.
We can't, as I have said so many times in this thread.
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Unread 8 Jan 2005, 13:31   #111
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Re: [Controversial Discussion] GOD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
see, thats what i have a problem with... obviously, if you just want to look at the evidence, there is no actual PROOF that god exists. However the very concept of god can never actually be disproved, seeing as by definition god is "beyond our understanding" I don't understand how we can ever rule out his existence entirely.
of course we can't. but an infinitesmally small chance of his existence is not, in my view, sufficient reason to assume it or even to suggest it as a reasonable possibility.
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Unread 8 Jan 2005, 13:32   #112
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Re: [Controversial Discussion] GOD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
of course we can't. but an infinitesmally small chance of his existence is not, in my view, sufficient reason to assume it or even to suggest it as a reasonable possibility.
Quite so; there are numerous things we have no evidence for, why is it that you (not phang, you collectively) have chosen to believe this specific one?
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Unread 8 Jan 2005, 13:36   #113
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Re: [Controversial Discussion] GOD

Hey, people: do you believe in astrology?
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Unread 8 Jan 2005, 13:42   #114
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Re: [Controversial Discussion] GOD

Quote:
Originally Posted by idimmu
i think you should shut the **** up about peoples avatars
quoted for lollity


Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Laughing on the internet, folks!
Are you that arrogant that you will just not allow anyone else to have their own opinions or views that differ to yours? He stated what his views on the subject were. You're that single-minded that you really think you're always right? You do this quite often too, Mark.
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Unread 8 Jan 2005, 13:43   #115
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Re: [Controversial Discussion] GOD

i was actually talking to belgy but nm

ive come to this conclusion after many sleepless drug filled nights lying awake and thinking about "stuff" if you must know.
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Unread 8 Jan 2005, 13:46   #116
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Re: [Controversial Discussion] GOD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Are you that arrogant that you will just not allow anyone else to have their own opinions or views that differ to yours? He stated what his views on the subject were. You're that single-minded that you really think you're always right? You do this quite often too, Mark.
the comment was directed at the claim that science offers no credible alternative. This is not only an attack on the beliefs of others but quite plainly absurd. To present it as some kind of solid fact or to be honest even interpretable as valid in any way is pretty much laughable.
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Unread 8 Jan 2005, 13:51   #117
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Re: [Controversial Discussion] GOD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
see, thats what i have a problem with... obviously, if you just want to look at the evidence, there is no actual PROOF that god exists. However the very concept of god can never actually be disproved, seeing as by definition god is "beyond our understanding" I don't understand how we can ever rule out his existence entirely.
I don't believe God exists at all. It's hard to explain but I have a sort of 'understanding' of what I contemplate the universe to be and how everything works and why this & that happened, I just haven't spent enough time to actually fully scrutinize my own beliefs as I just don't place enough importance upon that matter as it seems quite insignificant to me. I'm just trying to get on with my life and you know what they say, Ignorance is bliss.

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Unread 8 Jan 2005, 13:52   #118
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Re: [Controversial Discussion] GOD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Are you that arrogant that you will just not allow anyone else to have their own opinions or views that differ to yours? He stated what his views on the subject were. You're that single-minded that you really think you're always right? You do this quite often too, Mark.
I already commented on this, but I will do so again.

How much evidence is there that things happened the way they did in the bible?

Very little, and none backing up its more outlandish claims.

How much evidence is there that things DIDN'T happen the way they did in the bible?

More than you can possibly imagine. Seriously.

And you expect me to fall down and say 'Religion and science are equally supported viewpoints'? He said that he found science to be no more credible than religion. The only explanation for this is that he's deluded as to the levels of evidence for both, or he's rejected induction.
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Unread 8 Jan 2005, 13:53   #119
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Re: [Controversial Discussion] GOD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Gee how did I know you'd faithfully follow your master and defend him.
nicely sidestepped, top marks.
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Unread 8 Jan 2005, 13:53   #120
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Re: [Controversial Discussion] GOD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Gee how did I know you'd faithfully follow your master and defend him.
Hey, instead of the ad hominem, how about actually replying to the argument, you big faggot?
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Unread 8 Jan 2005, 13:57   #121
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Re: [Controversial Discussion] GOD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
I don't understand how we can ever rule out his existence entirely.
As has been said, you can't.

However, the more important question is whether or not it matters. Even if this "God" were to exist, is he a personality with a consciousness who takes an active interest in the affairs of earth and judges people based on his own sense of morality? Because if he isn't, I might as well worship my left shoe - it would be equally pointless and the end result would be the same.

The entire concept of christian religion hangs on a long series of assumptions. The existence of god, him taking an interest in earth, him judging people, him actually appearing to Moses, Jesus really being his son or at least prophet, him determining that you have to be a registered christian to get into heaven, there being an afterlife, and I reckon you could add a few more to that list.
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Unread 8 Jan 2005, 13:58   #122
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Re: [Controversial Discussion] GOD

Quote:
Originally Posted by cycle o path
Ste talked about God hating gays, non-believers and people who have sex before they are married.
Actually I was relating to this thread. I was saying it was bollocks and based on misinterpretations of the bible.
You seem to be a pretty intelligent Christian (one that doesn't believe the Bible is Literal) and you gain much more respect from me than Christians that take every word as the truth.
The God hates gays argument also goes back to a discussion (argument) I had with Boogster (and others) in this thread.
I would be interested as to what your opinions are on these matters.

As it is, I cannot believe that intelligent people seriously believe that their God exists but other religions' God don't. If there is a higher power then all religions are just interpretations of the same thing. I seriously doubt any have got them right and some have seriously misinterpreted any signs they have seen.
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Unread 8 Jan 2005, 14:04   #123
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Re: [Controversial Discussion] GOD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
Actually I was relating to this thread. I was saying it was bollocks and based on misinterpretations of the bible.
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind. It is an abomination.

Leviticus, 18:22, in the middle of a list of other laws of the church. Word of god, too.

Please tell me how you would interpret that.
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Unread 8 Jan 2005, 14:05   #124
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Re: [Controversial Discussion] GOD

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind. It is an abomination.

Leviticus, 18:22, in the middle of a list of other laws of the church. Word of god, too.

Please tell me how you would interpret that.
Was the bible originally written in English?
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Unread 8 Jan 2005, 14:07   #125
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Re: [Controversial Discussion] GOD

i end up thinking about things like this when i can't get to sleep for one reason or another, did it much more than i ever have before this term (maybe because i didnt have the net at home) and came to the conclusion that god PROBABLY exists.

i doubt i could explain my thought processes in any meaningful way though, which is a shame.
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Unread 8 Jan 2005, 14:09   #126
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Re: [Controversial Discussion] GOD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
Was the bible originally written in English?
So you're arguing that, through all the translations of the bible (I've read at least 3, and they all agree on this one) Leviticus is mistranslated?

Hell, not just that verse, either.

Turning to a random page,

'All that have not fins and scales in the sea,and in the rivers, of all the move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:

They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.'

11: 10-11.

Ever eaten squid?
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Unread 8 Jan 2005, 14:15   #127
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Re: [Controversial Discussion] GOD

Ever worked on the Sabbath? Exodus 35:2, 'Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the lord: whosoever does work therein shall be put to death.'

Really, the bible says a lot of stupid stuff. Plus, it's direct instruction, not something that can be taken as metaphor. Why aren't christians obeying these things?
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Unread 8 Jan 2005, 14:19   #128
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Re: [Controversial Discussion] GOD

http://westwing.bewarne.com/second/25admonitions.html

gg Aaron <3 He's so dreamy. Though apparently he stole it.
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Unread 8 Jan 2005, 14:21   #129
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Re: [Controversial Discussion] GOD

having read that last bible quote.. couldnt that on just be a general 'thou shalt not work thine ass off all of the time, take a break' as opposed to you must have this 1 day off every week.
really, does it matter what day we have off so long as we have 1 in 7
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Unread 8 Jan 2005, 14:22   #130
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Re: [Controversial Discussion] GOD

Quote:
Originally Posted by pablissimo
http://westwing.bewarne.com/second/25admonitions.html

gg Aaron <3 He's so dreamy. Though apparently he stole it.
Not stole, borrowed. He readily admitted it wasn't his.
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Unread 8 Jan 2005, 14:22   #131
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Re: [Controversial Discussion] GOD

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
So you're arguing that, through all the translations of the bible (I've read at least 3, and they all agree on this one) Leviticus is mistranslated?
Out of interest which languages have you read?

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibh.htm
Quote:
The first part of this verse is literally translated as "And with a male you shall not lay lyings of a woman" Many, probably most, theologians, Bible translations and biblical commentators agree that the verse is directed at men who engage in at least some for of anal sex with other men. But they do not agree on the full scope of the forbidden activities. For example: The Living Bible greatly widens the scope of the original Hebrew to include all homosexual acts by both men and women. They confuse the matter further by not differentiating between homosexual orientation and homosexual behavior. They render the first part of this verse as: "Homosexuality is absolutely forbidden."
On the other hand, many religious liberals have interpreted the beginning of this verse as referring only to sexual activities between two males during a Pagan temple ritual. If there were a liberal translation of the Bible, it might say "Ritual anal sex between two men in a Pagan temple is forbidden."
Read the whole link. There are plenty of interpretations on this passage. Who is to say which one is true?
Remember it was (supposedly) written over 2000 years ago.
Quote:
rather than forbidding male homosexuality, it simply restricts where it may occur." This may seem a strange prohibition to us today, but was quite consistent with other laws in Leviticus which involve improper mixing of things that should be kept separate. e.g. ancient Hebrews were not allowed to mix two crops in the same field, or make cloth out of two different raw materials, or plow a field with an ox and a donkey yoked together. A woman's bed was her own. Only her husband was permitted there, and then only under certain circumstances. Any other use of her bed would be a defilement.
EDIT and btw I'm not Christian in the slightest.
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Unread 8 Jan 2005, 14:23   #132
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Re: [Controversial Discussion] GOD

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBerk
having read that last bible quote.. couldnt that on just be a general 'thou shalt not work thine ass off all of the time, take a break' as opposed to you must have this 1 day off every week.
If that's so, why would you put people to death if they worked 7 days a week? Shouldn't it be their choice?

Are workaholics abominations?
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Unread 8 Jan 2005, 14:28   #133
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Re: [Controversial Discussion] GOD

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Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
If that's so, why would you put people to death if they worked 7 days a week? Shouldn't it be their choice?

Are workaholics abominations?
yes

i love the way you appear to assume i follow the bibles teachings..
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Unread 8 Jan 2005, 14:31   #134
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Re: [Controversial Discussion] GOD

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Originally Posted by Ste
Out of interest which languages have you read?
When did I say I read more than one language?

Quote:
Read the whole link. There are plenty of interpretations on this passage. Who is to say which one is true?
Remember it was (supposedly) written over 2000 years ago.
I did. Note that it also says 'many, if not most agree' that it's about male/male homosexuality. Note also that it provides no evidence for the 'alternative' interpretations;

Quote:
'On the other hand, many religious liberals have interpreted the beginning of this verse as referring only to sexual activities between two males during a Pagan temple ritual. If there were a liberal translation of the Bible, it might say "Ritual anal sex between two men in a Pagan temple is forbidden."'
How does one get this from a literal translation? (' "And with a male you shall not lay lyings of a woman"') The site doesn't say.

Quote:
An alternate translation would insert a different pair of words to produce: "And with a male you shall not lay [in the] lyings of a woman." That is, two men must not engage in sexual behavior on a woman's bed. Presumably, they must go elsewhere to have sex; a woman's bed was sacred and was to be reserved for heterosexual sex.
This may be well and good, however, it doesn't justify it at all. Is it supported by the grammar of the hebrew? Unfortunately, it doesn't say.

[edit]

Of course, the translation argument is actually irrelevent; how many modern christians have read the bible in the original hebrew? Won't they be basing their faith off the english translations?
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Unread 8 Jan 2005, 14:32   #135
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Re: [Controversial Discussion] GOD

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Originally Posted by TheBerk
yes

i love the way you appear to assume i follow the bibles teachings..
I don't, 'you' in conversational english can often (and does in this case) mean 'one'.
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Unread 8 Jan 2005, 14:41   #136
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Re: [Controversial Discussion] GOD

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Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
When did I say I read more than one language?
You didn't, but you should know that a lot is lost in translation. Especially between a 2000 year old language and a modern one. Translations are also reliant on the reader/writers interpretation.
You've read a few English translations, there are differences between even these.
The fact that there are different strains of Christianity based supposedly on the same text shows to me that there are many different interpretations.

Anyway, I'm not arguing what is correct or not. All I'm arguing is that you can't take the English bible as perfect and the literal truth. That site shows various interpretations. At the end of the day, your individual prejudice will affect your belief.
The Word of God? If God spoke English my guess is the Bible would read completely different.
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Unread 8 Jan 2005, 14:48   #137
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Re: [Controversial Discussion] GOD

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Originally Posted by Ste
You didn't, but you should know that a lot is lost in translation. Especially between a 2000 year old language and a modern one. Translations are also reliant on the reader/writers interpretation.
You've read a few English translations, there are differences between even these.
There are differences, and I know that. However, noted that I used the modern translations to support an interpretation that they all agreed upon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
The fact that there are different strains of Christianity based supposedly on the same text shows to me that there are many different interpretations.
Christianity has had sects since 29AD. The translation, hell, even Jesus not being in living memory, matters not a jot to the creation of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
Anyway, I'm not arguing what is correct or not. All I'm arguing is that you can't take the English bible as perfect and the literal truth.
Of course you can't. Of course there will be errors in the translation. However, given that most of the population can't read Hebrew, my previous point still stands.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
That site shows various interpretations. At the end of the day, your individual prejudice will affect your belief.
Obviously so, but the site doesn't even given any support to its alternate theories; if it's a mistake to make interpretations of old texts, it's even worse to make interpretations based on the english translation of the old texts.
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Unread 8 Jan 2005, 15:00   #138
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Re: [Controversial Discussion] GOD

I wrote that before your edit so missed your point.

Quote:
Of course, the translation argument is actually irrelevent; how many modern christians have read the bible in the original hebrew? Won't they be basing their faith off the english translations?
Yes they will, but they should realise that the English bible isn't the literal Word of God.
It's stupid to pretend it is. That is the problem I have with a lot of Christians. Which was my original point i think.
It should be the job of the Preachers and Vicars and whatever to learn ancient hebrew and explain the original text to help people interpret it.
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Unread 8 Jan 2005, 15:07   #139
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Re: [Controversial Discussion] GOD

But that goes back to the same old problem; it becomes the interpretation of the Preachers and Vicars that becomes dogma, rather than that of the original translators. 'Message down from on high' (which is what remote translation is) doesn't really bring any individual interpretation to bear.
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Unread 8 Jan 2005, 15:13   #140
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Re: [Controversial Discussion] GOD

I don't understand what you're trying to prove.
Christianity is down to personal interpretation? Well yeh. I agree.

Saying Christianity is anti-this and anti-that is pointless when it's differently interpreted, is one of the points I was trying to counter.
"Christianity is anti-homosexual so why do homosexuals want to be Christian?"
Homosexuals (amongst other people) don't consider Christianity to be anti-homosexual.
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Unread 8 Jan 2005, 15:15   #141
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Re: [Controversial Discussion] GOD

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
I already commented on this, but I will do so again.
I didn't ask you to "comment on this". I was observing how you seem to be rather arrogant in terms of your opinions. I don't care what your opinion of god is, whether he/she exists or not, or whether science is better than religion.

That wasn't my argument. My argument was that you should allow for differing opinions, instead of "lolling" at them. Perhaps he is horribly misguided, perhaps he is believing in something that is completely absurd. But they're his beliefs. And to just laugh at them is immature and inconsiderate.
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Unread 8 Jan 2005, 15:23   #142
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Re: [Controversial Discussion] GOD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
I don't understand what you're trying to prove.
Christianity is down to personal interpretation? Well yeh. I agree.
I was saying that your suggestion of having the vicars and preachers translate directly doesn't help, because it still rests on the personal inclinations of the independent translator.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
Saying Christianity is anti-this and anti-that is pointless when it's differently interpreted, is one of the points I was trying to counter.
If we're going back to the start of this discussion, remember that I made my post in response to this:

Quote:
[Christianity being anti homosexual] This is not true, it is an arguement that Satan has constructed to turn people against God and it has worked very well. The bible clearly tells us that God loves everyone unconditionally (no matter what they do or don't do).
My point was that it is foolishness to take one bit of the bible as explicitly true, yet ignore another part of the bible. It appears entirely plausible that he did not know what the bible says in Leviticus, unless he believes that Leviticus is a work of Satan, even though the bible claims it's from god via moses. But if you can believe that, then none of the bible can be taken at face value, and people believe only what they want to believe.

O wai
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Unread 8 Jan 2005, 15:33   #143
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Re: [Controversial Discussion] GOD

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
I was saying that your suggestion of having the vicars and preachers translate directly doesn't help, because it still rests on the personal inclinations of the independent translator.
Yeh you're right. And that's the problem with modern Christianity. And pretty much all religions.
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Unread 8 Jan 2005, 15:35   #144
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Re: [Controversial Discussion] GOD

i must say i agree with blegy tthat a lot of the problems of the world over the centuries can be placed firmly upon the shoulders of the various religions
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Unread 8 Jan 2005, 15:40   #145
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Re: [Controversial Discussion] GOD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
That wasn't my argument. My argument was that you should allow for differing opinions, instead of "lolling" at them. Perhaps he is horribly misguided, perhaps he is believing in something that is completely absurd. But they're his beliefs. And to just laugh at them is immature and inconsiderate.
Oh please. Ideas don't have more weight just because a person believes them; if something posts something insanely inaccurate, especially when it has already been covered in the thread, I'm not going to discriminate between the level to which someone holds that idea to be true. If a person actively chooses not to investigate his beliefs, then be it on his own head what responses he gets, especially if he chooses to believe something that is laughable in the face of overwealming evidence.

Do you scoff at people who believe in the horoscopes? At conspiracy theorists who think Kennedy was shot by an alien who now lives in the moon with Elvis? They're beliefs too. Hideously misguided too.

What about my beliefs? Where do they come into all of this? What if I am of the belief that, if a person can hold a strong belief without investigating the evidence, they do not deserve courtesy? If that is the case, then surely you're being hypocritical, as you're now insulting my beliefs.

But, on top of all of that, what is the point of this claim? Was I dismissing his belief system? His faith in the LORD? It seems perfectly clear to me that I was doing neither of these things, but scoffing at the notion that science is no more credible than religion, and specifically the bible. This is incorrect. Were it not so, would the Roman Catholic Church accept the possibility of the Big Bang Model as being canon, when they're so dogmatic as to reject the notion that condoms can fight the spread of sexual disease?
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Unread 8 Jan 2005, 15:42   #146
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Re: [Controversial Discussion] GOD

Quote:
Originally Posted by roadrunner_0
i must say i agree with blegy tthat a lot of the problems of the world over the centuries can be placed firmly upon the shoulders of the various religions
Not entirely. Religion may have been named as the reason for many atrocities, but that appears to be political expediency, so one wouldn't have to deal with the peasants. It's much the same as today; the politics of fear, the threat to our 'way of life', the subverting enemy to be pitied for not seeing the light.
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Unread 8 Jan 2005, 15:44   #147
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Re: [Controversial Discussion] GOD

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Originally Posted by Ste
Yeh you're right. And that's the problem with modern Christianity. And pretty much all religions.
Hell, it's worse than that. What about copying errors when making new documents? Distortion of oral history? Manipulation by those who control the text for their own, short term, political goals?
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Unread 8 Jan 2005, 15:49   #148
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Re: [Controversial Discussion] GOD

I'm not insulting your beliefs. I'm against them (that science is the be-all and end-all of everything, and there is no unfathomable power guiding us), but I'm not going to laugh at you for thinking that.

And no, I don't scoff at people who believe in horoscopes. I wouldn't say I believe in them myself, but they can occasionally be scarily accurate (even with the vagueness of a lot of them). About conspiracy theories, well I don't go in for them, but I wouldn't knock people down who went on about them. I wouldn't take kindly to them throwing them in my face and trying to convince me they were right and I was wrong though. Which is exactly what you're doing.

Just let some people have their beliefs. Maybe they are wrong. But I think most people on this board are reasonably intelligent. He didn't just wake up one morning and decide to believe in God. He'll have had these views for a long time, and put a lot of thought into them. To scoff at him, and try to convince him that he's wrong and you're right, and he should believe what you believe, is, as I've said, simply arrogant.

My girlfriend goes to church (when at home, not at uni). She doesn't necessarily believe in a lot of the stuff - she's had sex before marriage, we use contraception. She isn't against homosexuality. Etc. She is a Christian, because she believes it makes her a better person. Now I don't think I need a religion to guide me through life. I have morals, and they're good enough for me. But I won't laugh at her when she tells me what she believes in.

If all of us thought the same way, and accepted everything through proof and evidence, the world would be a very dull place.

This argument's going to go round and round in circles Mark. Feel free to reply to this (I probably would, if I were you, to have the last word - but that's how I am) - but I won't reply. Probably.
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Unread 8 Jan 2005, 15:58   #149
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Re: [Controversial Discussion] GOD

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Unread 8 Jan 2005, 16:05   #150
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Re: [Controversial Discussion] GOD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
I'm not insulting your beliefs. I'm against them (that science is the be-all and end-all of everything, and there is no unfathomable power guiding us), but I'm not going to laugh at you for thinking that.
Read my post again, and this time understand what I was referring to as my beliefs!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
I wouldn't take kindly to them throwing them in my face and trying to convince me they were right and I was wrong though. Which is exactly what you're doing.
I don't mind if they try to convince me of anything they please - as long as they back it up with some kind of logical argument. I'm not shouting 'Science is great! Religion is wrong! La la la!', because I know what I'm talking about; I've made the effort to look at the evidence, to try to understand what it means, and what it tells us. If other people do not make that, or a similar, effort, I don't see why I should respect their beliefs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
To scoff at him, and try to convince him that he's wrong and you're right, and he should believe what you believe, is, as I've said, simply arrogant.
Hey, it's another of those instances where my previous post acts as a counterargument to its reply!

I was not scoffing at his beliefs per se. I know many people who believe in god, and I do not feel the need to do anything of the sort. What I was scoffing was the attitude that science has little or no factual backing when compared with religion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
If all of us thought the same way, and accepted everything through proof and evidence, the world would be a very dull place.
Dull? I'd go for better. If people understood how evidence was gathered, understood sources, and how statistics work, then the world would be vastly superior. Leaders wouldn't be able to manipulate their populations with deceit and spin. Elections would be won and lost on facts, not fear. Sounds much better to me, how about you?

Oh, and re: dull, why would it be dull? Because we wouldn't be able to argue about religion? I share a house with people who accept the scientific method, and its results, as valid, but it doesn't mean we have nothing to talk about. It doesn't mean we can't play games, have parties, discuss issues that we feel need discussing: we just don't talk about god because we don't see the point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
This argument's going to go round and round in circles Mark.
It might be doing so now, I'm not sure. I know that, in my previous two replies to you, I've posted substantially different arguments. Hell, I made at least three different and new points in my last post alone. It's not my fault if you choose to reply to them with a rewording of the same thing every time. You may not mean to be strawmanning, but you are.
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