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Unread 7 Jul 2014, 11:56   #1
wades209
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Havoc

I liked how havoc was last round with no allys etc.

My suggestion for this one would be to have to re sign up so only active havoc players are playing and therefore no stupid inactives being farmed for the first two days. No need for Cluster allys etc as you will have a galaxy who is active and can defend attack with you. Maybe limited to 6-7 per gal. This way everyone starts fresh on the same level whilst maintaining a good competition. Last Havoc I was Cluster 1 which had loads of inactives and this made it very difficult against others as I just kept getting hit. What do others think?
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Unread 7 Jul 2014, 13:37   #2
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Re: Havoc

Personally I think it would be nice to have a better balance between the actives and the inactives in the cluster alliances but I'm not sure what the best way to achieve that is..

Re-creating the galaxies from scratch has the disadvantage that you will be unable to play with your friends..

When you are stuck in an inactive cluster you can always try to self-excile but that begs the question what the odds are of landing in a more active cluster.. and you'll be loosing some time that way..
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Unread 7 Jul 2014, 20:51   #3
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Re: Havoc

Keep planets, but put them all on 0 roids. On login, get roids. Maybe even calculate how many resources they would've had if they'd kept them all and give those too. Gotta be something clever we can do.
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Unread 8 Jul 2014, 05:55   #4
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Re: Havoc

i would be against shuffling of planets as my friend late started in my gal so she could play havoc in the same gal as me.
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Unread 8 Jul 2014, 10:38   #5
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Re: Havoc

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Originally Posted by Blue_Esper View Post
i would be against shuffling of planets as my friend late started in my gal so she could play havoc in the same gal as me.
Maybe we could shuffle but have small bps. maybe around 3 and gals max 6-7?
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Unread 8 Jul 2014, 10:56   #6
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Re: Havoc

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i would be against shuffling of planets as my friend late started in my gal so she could play havoc in the same gal as me.
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Unread 8 Jul 2014, 10:57   #7
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Re: Havoc

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Maybe we could shuffle but have small bps. maybe around 3 and gals max 6-7?
Maybe it's havoc and not worth the faff on for pa team to change and make new stuff for the 40 guys that play
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Unread 8 Jul 2014, 12:00   #8
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Re: Havoc

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Maybe it's havoc and not worth the faff on for pa team to change and make new stuff for the 40 guys that play
Wow I love how you come onto every post and claim its never worth PA changing things. Havoc is fun for a number of PA players. It wouldn't need major changes but small things could help. This is a suggestions forum!

So please take you negativity elsewhere and stop trolling everyone who makes a new suggestion!
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Unread 8 Jul 2014, 12:21   #9
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Re: Havoc

yes she does, and she only made a planet this round so she could play havoc, and im sure she's not the only one. Buddy packing in havoc would be a neat idea, cap the max gal size at 5 would make it easier to roid those super active gals
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Unread 8 Jul 2014, 14:37   #10
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Re: Havoc

I play about 2 days before I crash. But if we are resetting and what not, can we change races for havoc as well?

Im generally always sick of the race I am playing after 1100 ticks of it
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Unread 9 Jul 2014, 11:53   #11
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Re: Havoc

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Originally Posted by Papadoc View Post
I play about 2 days before I crash. But if we are resetting and what not, can we change races for havoc as well?

Im generally always sick of the race I am playing after 1100 ticks of it
Yeah I think this should be an option. I agree a change in race might make it more interesting. At least the option. People might be more interested then.
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Unread 16 Jul 2014, 07:29   #12
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Re: Havoc

I would add this: abolish the dists effect on every scan but Incoming scans. That means they can still fake, but it doesnt make them un-attackable. Lets be honest, how many scanners are accessible in havoc?
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Unread 16 Jul 2014, 08:21   #13
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Re: Havoc

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Originally Posted by Recluse View Post
I would add this: abolish the dists effect on every scan but Incoming scans. That means they can still fake, but it doesnt make them un-attackable. Lets be honest, how many scanners are accessible in havoc?
In havoc last round with the cluster alliances I honestly had no problem getting access to scans..
The cluster I had in even had a 300+ amps scanner.. (might even be 350+ amps but not sure)

+

Given that it was a mix of old-alliances there was also access to the old alliance scanners..
One of the ND scanner - which was not in the cluster - did respond to my scan requests.. (Note: I'm not/never was in ND)
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Unread 16 Jul 2014, 09:52   #14
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Re: Havoc

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Originally Posted by Bram View Post
In havoc last round with the cluster alliances I honestly had no problem getting access to scans..
The cluster I had in even had a 300+ amps scanner.. (might even be 350+ amps but not sure)

+

Given that it was a mix of old-alliances there was also access to the old alliance scanners..
One of the ND scanner - which was not in the cluster - did respond to my scan requests.. (Note: I'm not/never was in ND)
and for those that aren't in your Goldilocks cluster where scanners are rare?
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Unread 16 Jul 2014, 15:25   #15
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Re: Havoc

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Originally Posted by Blue_Esper View Post
and for those that aren't in your Goldilocks cluster where scanners are rare?
Exactly. Last round i couldnt get high amp scanners, and the only reason I had scans was because I was a scanner, but I knew a lot for whom I was their only hope, and I wasnt all that active
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Unread 16 Jul 2014, 15:41   #16
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Re: Havoc

I know for one i will be without a scanner this round of havoc so would be nice to allow AU's and J scans at least
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Unread 17 Jul 2014, 10:57   #17
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Re: Havoc

If you want to scan people who dist, make amps.
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Unread 17 Jul 2014, 12:00   #18
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Re: Havoc

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
If you want to scan people who dist, make amps.
what mz said, and you get 30? amps extra when havoc starts... compared to disters who gets 0 extra.
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Unread 17 Jul 2014, 13:23   #19
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Re: Havoc

so for those who dist whore during the round, and people who relied on alliance scanners for scans, should now be punished because those alliance scanners dont want to play havoc?
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Unread 17 Jul 2014, 13:34   #20
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Re: Havoc

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Originally Posted by Blue_Esper View Post
so for those who dist whore during the round, and people who relied on alliance scanners for scans, should now be punished because those alliance scanners dont want to play havoc?
As TheoDD said, you get 30 free amps at round end. On top of that, you should already have 20-40, regardless of whether you care about havoc at all: that's roughly how many amps you want in the "real" round anyway. If you're so invested in havoc that 50-70 amps isn't enough, then yes, people who are better prepared for havoc than you deserve to reap the benefits.
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Unread 17 Jul 2014, 14:44   #21
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Re: Havoc

last havoc round i had 180 amps and could scan roughly 20 of the top 100, this makes solo play very difficult.
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Unread 17 Jul 2014, 18:56   #22
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Re: Havoc

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
As TheoDD said, you get 30 free amps at round end. On top of that, you should already have 20-40, regardless of whether you care about havoc at all: that's roughly how many amps you want in the "real" round anyway. If you're so invested in havoc that 50-70 amps isn't enough, then yes, people who are better prepared for havoc than you deserve to reap the benefits.
In other words, people who spent 7 weeks that really counts, preparing for the 2 weeks that don't count, should be granted unfair advantage over the rest. Yes, that sounds right. Along that same thinking, we should not complete researches then, either. If people were not prepared enough for havoc by having researched all scans, all HCT's and all ship types, then yes, people who are better prepared should have the advantage. In addition, might I remind any who have forgotten, 1000 vs 750. Those are construction values for amps vs dists. That means that unless you had a large advantage to start, you will quickly be outbuilt and can never recover.

Are there really any ways left that can be thought of to screw over players who want to have fun, or will this line of thinking continue until there is no-one with a job, family, etc playing anymore, and all that's left are 93 individuals hooked up to IV's and catheters sitting at their computer 24/7, exchanging insults about player #94 who didn't prepare enough and lost cause he had to get up and take a piss?
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Unread 17 Jul 2014, 20:28   #23
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Re: Havoc

as i have said earlier, i have a friend who signed up especially to play havoc and will not be able to play on their own without the assistance of others to provide scans, havoc is pretty much a stand alone game as it is, i dont see why a tweak like this wouldn't be warrented
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Unread 17 Jul 2014, 22:00   #24
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Re: Havoc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue_Esper View Post
last havoc round i had 180 amps and could scan roughly 20 of the top 100, this makes solo play very difficult.
Forgive me for not feeling particularly sympathetic that you failed to keep up with people who spent their construction points and resources appropriately. If you want to be able to scan people who build dists, then you have to build amps. If you refuse to do that, then deal with the consequences.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Recluse View Post
In other words, people who spent 7 weeks that really counts, preparing for the 2 weeks that don't count, should be granted unfair advantage over the rest.
If those 2 weeks don't matter, why do you care? If havoc matters, then you should be willing to prepare for it. If it doesn't, then there's no reason to complain.
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Unread 18 Jul 2014, 00:57   #25
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Re: Havoc

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Originally Posted by Blue_Esper View Post
so for those who dist whore during the round, and people who relied on alliance scanners for scans, should now be punished because those alliance scanners dont want to play havoc?
In other words, those who dist whored during round should now be punished for that in havoc by removing an advantage they had, at a cost during the round while rewarding those who couldnt be arsed to make amps during round?

While you also get a +30 amp bonus upon havoc, and also remember that the average planet with dists maybe have 30-50 dists to block inc scans?

Also keeping in mind that those with extreme amounts of dists in havoc usually build most if not all of those DURING havoc.

A high amp scanner in real round pushing amps havoc will be able to scan most or all.

Stop punishing people for being active!
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Unread 18 Jul 2014, 07:21   #26
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Re: Havoc

dist whores get scanned during the round by the dedicated scanners that are available to which ever alliance you're in. I am saying that as the number of players playing havoc is significantly reduced there are little to no scanners immediately available in the shortened window (somewhere between 15mins to 2 hours) you have to organise a j scan or defense for yourself and calc. Along with the large amount of xans we have had this round i would say that it is paramount to the success of solo, newb friendly play that we should be trying to promote.
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Unread 18 Jul 2014, 07:46   #27
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Re: Havoc

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Originally Posted by Blue_Esper View Post
last havoc round i had 180 amps and could scan roughly 20 of the top 100, this makes solo play very difficult.
To be honest, this really sounds like bullshit...

All it takes is a look at the https://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=200430.
Top #3 distwhores:
  • 209 dists
  • 158 dists
  • 121 dists

So if you had 180 amps then you would have been able to scan all but one planet..
I'm not sure if you counted the 30 free amps but if you didn't then you had 210 amps at the start of havoc and could scan the entire universe...


This round it could be a different story since there are a couple of true distwhores out there...
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Unread 18 Jul 2014, 07:55   #28
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Re: Havoc

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Originally Posted by Recluse View Post
In other words, people who spent 7 weeks that really counts, preparing for the 2 weeks that don't count, should be granted unfair advantage over the rest.
And you think amps/dists are the only advantage and/or the only preparation one should do?

If I'm planning on playing havoc there are some things I will do (and it might be wise for others to do too):
  • make sure to get 60 finance centers at start of havoc.. with 3000 roids and 60 FCs you get an extra income of close to a million compared to 0 FCs
  • make sure the government is set to Corp
  • get 50 dists if I'm playing as Xan - to counter the 30 free amps given
  • build pods to roid the inactives at havoc start
  • and new from this round: get 51 structure defence building since I don't want to worry about SKs (250 building from regular round, 260 buildings added at start of havoc = 510 buildings total)

Last edited by Bram; 18 Jul 2014 at 08:59.
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Unread 18 Jul 2014, 08:07   #29
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Re: Havoc

Anyway, from the https://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=200500 I take it we are back to regular alliances for havoc..

I really feel that this is a missed opportunity

Havoc - in my opinion - is great to meet new players, to learn new tricks and more importantly for new players - which are not in an alliance during the round - to get a feeling on how it is when cooperating with others.. and to show their skill so alliances in the next round may be more willing to accept them.

I'm guessing this havoc will just be a repeat of the previous ones..
One tag with all active players vs all the rest..
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Unread 18 Jul 2014, 08:44   #30
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Re: Havoc

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Originally Posted by Bram View Post
To be honest, this really sounds like bullshit...

All it takes is a look at the https://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=200430.
Top #3 distwhores:
  • 209 dists
  • 158 dists
  • 121 dists

So if you had 180 amps then you would have been able to scan all but one planet..
I'm not sure if you counted the 30 free amps but if you didn't then you had 210 amps at the start of havoc and could scan the entire universe...


This round it could be a different story since there are a couple of true distwhores out there...
180 amps at the end of havoc not at the start, had about 50 or 60 amps
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Unread 18 Jul 2014, 08:53   #31
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Re: Havoc

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Originally Posted by Blue_Esper View Post
180 amps at the end of havoc not at the start, had about 50 or 60 amps
Ah, I didn't realize that..

At the start of havoc the #20 distwhore had 80 dists.. seems a bit unlikely that the universe started mass building dists..

But I've got no clue how many distwhores there were at the end of havoc..
No stats and I didn't really keep the havoc scans..
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Unread 19 Jul 2014, 07:18   #32
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Re: Havoc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Forgive me for not feeling particularly sympathetic that you failed to keep up with people who spent their construction points and resources appropriately. If you want to be able to scan people who build dists, then you have to build amps. If you refuse to do that, then deal with the consequences.
I feel like you are one of those Dist whores lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
If those 2 weeks don't matter, why do you care? If havoc matters, then you should be willing to prepare for it. If it doesn't, then there's no reason to complain.
havoc is supposed to be, well, havoc. Fun times, ranks don't count for anything, crazy amounts of stuff flying around, lots of roids, etc. It seems to me that instead of trying to actually make it, well, havoc, and fun, you are trying to make it as much like the normal round as possible.

I am sure you don't feel like all the extra res and roids that everyone is given is unfair, do you? I mean after all, if they didn't have that res and those roids by the end of the round, and be prepared for havoc, why should those big planets who did, be penalized by everyone else being given the same?

You see, myself, and Blue_Esper, merely are suggesting ways to make Havoc, more fun and playable. But if you wish to further hinder a game with barely 700 people left playing it, well, be my guest m8. I may not have been around here for the entire time, but I've been in the community since close to the start, and watched as more and more implementations on everything limiting fun cause more and more people to leave. I've seen other games die off the same way. I've watched many here warn of the same, and we all watch as numbers dwindle. But heck, have your dists, there will be less people playing havoc anyway, due to the alliance policy that seems to never get changed, yet everyone but HC's hate, so enjoy
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Unread 19 Jul 2014, 21:10   #33
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Re: Havoc

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Originally Posted by Recluse View Post
I feel like you are one of those Dist whores lol
I've disted in the past. I recognize that today, disting is dead as a doornail. I haven't played havoc in... well, I don't remember ever playing it. I haven't played the "real" round since r52 (scanner) or r50 (proper).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Recluse View Post
havoc is supposed to be, well, havoc. Fun times, ranks don't count for anything, crazy amounts of stuff flying around, lots of roids, etc. It seems to me that instead of trying to actually make it, well, havoc, and fun, you are trying to make it as much like the normal round as possible.

I am sure you don't feel like all the extra res and roids that everyone is given is unfair, do you? I mean after all, if they didn't have that res and those roids by the end of the round, and be prepared for havoc, why should those big planets who did, be penalized by everyone else being given the same?
I don't know why you keep trying to put words into my mouth with slippery slope fallacy-laden arguments like this. We're discussing dists, not dystopian horror scenarios of doom.

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Originally Posted by Recluse View Post
You see, myself, and Blue_Esper, merely are suggesting ways to make Havoc, more fun and playable.
So am I, we just disagree on what "fun" is. There is a hard counter to distwhoring: ampwhoring. However, rather than modifying the way you yourself play, which would be incredibly easy, you want to prevent other people from playing the way they want, which would further restrict the number of options in a game that is already pretty damn simple. I don't think that's right.
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Unread 20 Jul 2014, 06:41   #34
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Re: Havoc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
I don't know why you keep trying to put words into my mouth with slippery slope fallacy-laden arguments like this. We're discussing dists, not dystopian horror scenarios of doom.
Im not, I'm merely pointing to the flaw in the logic. Your reasoning for wanting things as you argue they should be was due to fairness. I simply pointed out how true fairness could be viewed. There is a difference between slippery slope arguments, where people can argue for potential eventualities that may come if a specific action is taken, and simple logical arguments pointing out similarities or differences. Slippery slope would be me saying "IF WE DO THIS then blah blah blah will also be done, etc. Thats not my argument at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
So am I, we just disagree on what "fun" is.
Valid point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
There is a hard counter to distwhoring: ampwhoring. However, rather than modifying the way you yourself play, which would be incredibly easy, you want to prevent other people from playing the way they want, which would further restrict the number of options in a game that is already pretty damn simple. I don't think that's right.
Ok, here is where I think our main disagreement actually comes from. You are saying that, by allowing scans to ignore dists in havoc, it prevents other people from playing the way they want. My counter to that is, by leaving them as is, you are dictating that everyone else in this game should be forced to change their normal round play in order to play havoc to accommodate dist whores, and thus prevent them from playing how they want. So either way, 1 half is dictating how the other half must play. Which is why I suggested only allowing jgp's and AU's, or even just AU's only, since Landing scans ignore dists anyway.

If someone dist whores, and thus can't be scanned by 99% of the universe, its not so much dictating how the non amp whores can or can't play, its basically putting them out of the game entirely. If someone can't scan, say, 20 peeps, due to being out dist'd, it basically just makes those 20 no longer part of the game, since you can't really attack them unless you want to suicide. Last round I especially started to run into this a lot myself, even though I had 60 or so amps at start of havoc. This is why I say it takes fun away, and limits just how many people will or can play havoc.
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Unread 20 Jul 2014, 12:31   #35
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Re: Havoc

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Originally Posted by Recluse View Post
Ok, here is where I think our main disagreement actually comes from. You are saying that, by allowing scans to ignore dists in havoc, it prevents other people from playing the way they want. My counter to that is, by leaving them as is, you are dictating that everyone else in this game should be forced to change their normal round play in order to play havoc to accommodate dist whores, and thus prevent them from playing how they want.
Of course. That's how multiplayer games work. Someone figures out a new strategy, and if it's a good one, everyone else has to learn how to deal with it. If a strategy is clearly overpowered (ie, has no counter, or the counters are clearly inferior), then you can formulate an argument to rebalance the game to fix that. I would be open for such an argument, if it were being made. Removing a strategy altogether is a last-ditch measure.
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Unread 1 Aug 2014, 09:42   #36
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Re: Havoc

On the subject of dists and havoc I currently have 158 amps. I had about 12 at the end of the round, have constructed nothing else during havoc but have not been hyper active so have missed a fair few construction ticks. It would be fair to say that anyone actually playing havoc could get to the 158 I have got to.

It being the end of havoc I am currently blocked by:
T10: 3 planets
T20: 8 planets
T50: 10 planets
T100: 13 planets

While it might be annoying not to be able to scan some top planets with so few I dont see how it really damages anyone's ability to play havoc - if they have to run from those they cant scan at least there are another 87 planets in the T100 you can pick new ones up from.
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Unread 1 Aug 2014, 10:42   #37
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Talking Re: Havoc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Recluse View Post
Im not, I'm merely pointing to the flaw in the logic. Your reasoning for wanting things as you argue they should be was due to fairness. I simply pointed out how true fairness could be viewed. There is a difference between slippery slope arguments, where people can argue for potential eventualities that may come if a specific action is taken, and simple logical arguments pointing out similarities or differences. Slippery slope would be me saying "IF WE DO THIS then blah blah blah will also be done, etc. Thats not my argument at all.



Valid point.



Ok, here is where I think our main disagreement actually comes from. You are saying that, by allowing scans to ignore dists in havoc, it prevents other people from playing the way they want. My counter to that is, by leaving them as is, you are dictating that everyone else in this game should be forced to change their normal round play in order to play havoc to accommodate dist whores, and thus prevent them from playing how they want. So either way, 1 half is dictating how the other half must play. Which is why I suggested only allowing jgp's and AU's, or even just AU's only, since Landing scans ignore dists anyway.

If someone dist whores, and thus can't be scanned by 99% of the universe, its not so much dictating how the non amp whores can or can't play, its basically putting them out of the game entirely. If someone can't scan, say, 20 peeps, due to being out dist'd, it basically just makes those 20 no longer part of the game, since you can't really attack them unless you want to suicide. Last round I especially started to run into this a lot myself, even though I had 60 or so amps at start of havoc. This is why I say it takes fun away, and limits just how many people will or can play havoc.
Simplest way to deal with this would be to disable the dists for havoc. Put the 'havoc back into havoc if you see what I mean.
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Unread 1 Aug 2014, 15:10   #38
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Re: Havoc

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Originally Posted by booji View Post
T10: 3 planets
T20: 8 planets
T50: 10 planets
T100: 13 planets
That settles it, then. Thanks for the data!
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Unread 1 Aug 2014, 17:45   #39
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Re: Havoc

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Originally Posted by DG View Post
Simplest way to deal with this would be to disable the dists for havoc. Put the 'havoc back into havoc if you see what I mean.
or learn how to plan ahead and adapt on the way...
after several rounds of pa and havoc most people know how the game plays out.
if you are addicted to scanning the entire the universe, then spam amps earlier. booji also pointed out that he had below 15 amps at end of round, and was able to scan 87% of t100, by slowly constructing amps during havoc at no "real active" level. I expect the % is much higher on the entire rankings, as most semi-active players during havoc will struggle to be below t50 even.


By disabling dists, you also disable amps. So those who have prepared all round for havoc, or been high ampers and like to play havoc, shall suffer on it that way?

STFU ALL OF YOU THAT WANT TO CHANGE THAT AND TAKE A COOKIE!
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Unread 2 Aug 2014, 05:31   #40
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Re: Havoc

ez way to solve this is to just have a universal scan bank
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Unread 2 Aug 2014, 07:55   #41
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Re: Havoc

Prepared for havoc... Do ppl do that cos just.... LOL!!!
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Unread 4 Aug 2014, 10:02   #42
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Re: Havoc

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Prepared for havoc... Do ppl do that cos just.... LOL!!!
Maybe you should try to dedicate a full round to prepare for havoc. Would give you a chance to do well in this game for once
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