R32 stats and next round :p

[isildurx]

JBGs revamped stats plix!

[MiX]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

... I understand that you don't get the variation in types of ship targeting that you have on zae's but all that forces is teaming up in attack to get rid of the holes in your fleet and the emergence of a brutal war of attrition which fluctuates depending on what ships the other side is building. I'm not saying this would be a totally bad thing but I would remind everyone who played r30 that a similar sort of defensive, brute-force round is what you're looking at, except probably a lot more so.

This part about forcing to team up is definetly true. I played a beta last night and, basically, without teaming up there was no way to roid anything but inactives with half fleets. Zaejii's stats are not very suitable for beginning players, if you dont have acces to regular team ups you will be unable to roid succesfully.

Defending against solo attacks is incredibly easy, as I also have tested live in the beta. We did form a sort of a bp with 1 original galmember + 2 late signups, virtually nothing could land. Even people with double size would have to recall their attack fleets on one pure fleet defence.

Its a very interesting statset but also very hardcore. It is definetly suitable for fun speedgames, but in a real round it might be too harsh on a lot of players who can not get decent team ups. I know, I know, they should team up, but unfortunatly every new player sort of has to start solo.

[Gio2k]

Forcing any race into building more than 3 different classes of ships is just asking for trouble. If you have to spread your resources all over the 6 different ship classes you will end up with a round where you can't roid anyone. This is especially true with cathaar.

[ElAlan]

Oh please god keep JBG's (revamped) stats. The simpler stats actually made me want to play last round. I am busy and dont have the time to have this game take up most of my life, and it is a game, so having to actually spend a stupid amount of time learning ships and what they do just sounds a bit too much like hard work.

[Patrikc]

May I also note that JBG's latest set, the one with 3 pods/race, are a huge improvement compared to (the fixed version of) last round's stats imo.

Though I also see Zaejii's set getting better and better by the day.

[Psi_K]

Originally Posted by MiX

This part about forcing to team up is definetly true. I played a beta last night and, basically, without teaming up there was no way to roid anything but inactives with half fleets. Zaejii's stats are not very suitable for beginning players, if you dont have acces to regular team ups you will be unable to roid succesfully.

Defending against solo attacks is incredibly easy, as I also have tested live in the beta. We did form a sort of a bp with 1 original galmember + 2 late signups, virtually nothing could land. Even people with double size would have to recall their attack fleets on one pure fleet defence.

Its a very interesting statset but also very hardcore. It is definetly suitable for fun speedgames, but in a real round it might be too harsh on a lot of players who can not get decent team ups. I know, I know, they should team up, but unfortunatly every new player sort of has to start solo.

I could have landed, and easily too.
I'm sure that Murfdogg and Mystic had their way with you guys a few times.
Regardless it isn't as extreme a picture as you're trying to paint.

There were issues with last rounds stats, there are issues with JBG's revamped stats and there are issues with Zae's stats. It's going to happen, it'll be rare that everyone is happy.

Originally Posted by ElAlan

Oh please god keep JBG's (revamped) stats. The simpler stats actually made me want to play last round. I am busy and dont have the time to have this game take up most of my life, and it is a game, so having to actually spend a stupid amount of time learning ships and what they do just sounds a bit too much like hard work.

The amount of effort required in either set of stats is very similar.
With the amount of help the game does for you, figuring out what does what isn't hard

[Buly]

There are many possibilities to land solo with Zaejiis stats.

I'd say that they are the best so far. They allow soloing on a decent level (CR/BS mainly but there are other options too), and they allow for very many options on ingal cross defence and for smaller groups to efficiently attack together.

They are a tad more complex, that's why I recon that they are disliked. Looking at them for 15 minutes make them quite clear though. They reward the players that actually put some thought into their fleets and build smart, not just mass on something like the game is played atm (which sucks imo).

On a sidenote, I think Gates stats are very underestimated. The main thing he did wrong was make cath CO to easy of a choice, and xan FI decent making it into to FI/CO round. Another reason for them going to shit was that not enough people went for CR/BS, which were actually the best ships had people used them efficiently enough.

[Makhil]

Anyway, at this point, I believe PA Team will just let things drag until they can say: "it's too late to change the set and it wouldn't be fair for all the work Zaejii put in".
If PA Team is not able to come up with a simple decision, maybe we can make it for them and agree to give Zaejii his chance. Nothing worse than hesitating for days when we need to set our strategies on personnal, BP and Alliance levels. And if the round sucks, it won't be the first.

[jelle]

Originally Posted by Makhil

If PA Team is not able to come up with a simple decision, maybe we can make it for them and agree to give Zaejii his chance.

Nope, revamped jbg stats plx!

[Makhil]

anything but a final decision now

[[B5]Londo]

Originally Posted by Makhil

anything but a final decision now

Anything! But a final decision now!
or asap
is that what you meant or were you actually supporting procrastination?

[JonnyBGood]

I pmed appoco myself, they're using zae's set and he said he hoped to have the final set some time this weekend.

[Teclis]

Well normaly I like just reading and plugging stats into a spread sheet. Seems to me the main problem is how stats need to be formated. That problem is here because of the different play styles and intensity levels of play by Planetarion members.

There are a few different types of players:
The Casual: This person logs on 1-3 times per day checking pay and production logging on to build and roids/recall. They usually are not in the top alliances and most likely dont have the time to commit. These people usually prefer simpler stats

The Dedicated: Logs on 4-6 times per day Often spending a bit more time caclulating their attacks and try to not miss ticks in research and construction.

The Hardcore: Logs on 7-well more than 7 =D per day. They hardly ever miss ticks and always attack when given the chance. There people prefer more complex stats so that the game is interesting.

My view is that casuals dont want to spend the time calcing fleets like the hardcore players. They would rather play a more relaex PA while the hardcore players like the thrill of a challange and wide spread of possible enemy fleets.

Why not alternate so that one round stats are fairly simple and next roud they are more complex so that everyone gets what they like at some point.

[JonnyBGood]

Look, it's not a question of complexity. If anything stats like these result in less complex tactics because everything needs to be a cross-racial dual-class teamup and it becomes a matter of raw numbers and to what extent you can bring them to bear. There are no secret world-beating strategies waiting to be discovered in there. Some things are more playable than others but that's about it. And for the love of god Buly soloing just won't work. You will always be able to defend a solo attack with less value than the guy attacking is sending.

Originally Posted by Teclis

My view is that casuals dont want to spend the time calcing fleets like the hardcore players. They would rather play a more relaex PA while the hardcore players like the thrill of a challange and wide spread of possible enemy fleets.

I don't what the **** you're talking about calcing fleets. In fairness I doubt anyone posting in this thread doesn't bother calcing their ****ing attacks.

[Teclis]

You think cursing makes you more of man trying being an adult and responding a mature fashion its hard to take you seriously when you spew out crap like.

So to reply I'll answer you. Casuals dont put as much work into their calcs as say a hardcore player . Example if a hardcore player finds a target they want to hit but cant hit solo they will get teamups going. Where as a Casual might find another target. Another is if a hardcore player might find the perfect target where as a casual may find an ok target.


Perhaps there are no secerate stragies but, there are optimal numbers. Ratios of ships finding flaws in other races and exploting them with out leaving yourself open. Maybe just cause you cant see stragies doesn't mean that they aren't there. Even if there are not stratagies then at least let the rest of us pretend there are.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Teclis

You think cursing makes you more of man trying being an adult and responding a mature fashion its hard to take you seriously when you spew out crap like.

On the verge of knockin' mutha****as out for no reason
Once I get down there'll be no breathin'
It seems when mutha****as wanna calm down,
put his palm down
Seems I gots to lay the law down
Now its on pow what you to do? I'm askin' you

So to reply I'll answer you. Casuals dont put as much work into their calcs as say a hardcore player . Example if a hardcore player finds a target they want to hit but cant hit solo they will get teamups going. Where as a Casual might find another target. Another is if a hardcore player might find the perfect target where as a casual may find an ok target.

You're missing my point. Barely anyone posting in this thread is a casual player, many of the people posting against zae's set as it currently is are t10/20 players in fact.

Perhaps there are no secerate stragies but, there are optimal numbers. Ratios of ships finding flaws in other races and exploting them with out leaving yourself open. Maybe just cause you cant see stragies doesn't mean that they aren't there. Even if there are not stratagies then at least let the rest of us pretend there are.

No, there are strategies but they depend on what everyone else builds. There's just a lot of unplayable approaches and a massive number of ships doing a wide variety of different things. This forces you to play in certain ways.

[Light]

This is the main thing i hate about the PA Team.

Why are we reverting back to complicated/big stats? Has zPeti got enough members now, that he isnt trying to attract anymore?

These stats are extremly hostile to casuals and people who struggle to read/understand the stats. I really dont understand why we keep going round in circles, I thought the PA Team understood that we cant have complicated stats when we're trying to get new players into the game, that we need to actually make the game understandable to the new player.

Yeah, any active can read these stats and figure out roughly what ships they want to buy. However, whats a new player going to do? He's going to buy abit of everything and die horribly.

[Mzyxptlk]

Originally Posted by Light

Yeah, any active can follow the instructions of someone who cares about stats and play accordingly.

Fix'd.

[MiX]

Originally Posted by Psi_K

I could have landed, and easily too.
I'm sure that Murfdogg and Mystic had their way with you guys a few times.
Regardless it isn't as extreme a picture as you're trying to paint.

There were issues with last rounds stats, there are issues with JBG's revamped stats and there are issues with Zae's stats. It's going to happen, it'll be rare that everyone is happy.



The amount of effort required in either set of stats is very similar.
With the amount of help the game does for you, figuring out what does what isn't hard

Team ups ARE required, I am not painting an extreme picture. Mystic landed on me several times, because I went to sleep. And because it was a speedgame. You just cannot solo a player who is paying attention. One defence fleet WILL cover you because your attack fleet has a gaping hole in it.

JBG is saying the same thing and its true, not extreme or overdone.

This in itself is not a bad thing though, but as has been pointed out here several times. It is not very friendly for new players. I like complex stats, honestly I do. For me its very easy to get team ups going as I have a variety of choice in people who would like to attack with me. On a usual night I have about 3-6 fleets to distribute as I see fit because people rely on me to get them targets. It wont be an issue for me to do well with these stats.

New players dont have that possibility. I remember my first rounds, I was not a bad player back then either. Actually I dare say that in my second round I operated above the level of people in my alliance at that time (IPC). Therefore I soloed, if in that round these stats were used I could never do well. Noone would have noticed me and I wouldnt have gotten into Elysium the next round. I would have quit.

[Teclis]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

On the verge of knockin' mutha****as out for no reason
Once I get down there'll be no breathin'
It seems when mutha****as wanna calm down,
put his palm down
Seems I gots to lay the law down
Now its on pow what you to do? I'm askin' you

You're missing my point. Barely anyone posting in this thread is a casual player, many of the people posting against zae's set as it currently is are t10/20 players in fact.

No, there are strategies but they depend on what everyone else builds. There's just a lot of unplayable approaches and a massive number of ships doing a wide variety of different things. This forces you to play in certain ways.

Ok well the your first comment is well confusing and more or less a waste of my time to read so lets pass over that.

So the casuals aren't posting here? Ok how many different people are? Is it the entire population of PA? Dont think so, in that reguard do they not deserve to be represented? (no im not a casual) On top of that are casual players the only one who like simple stats? I dont think so (again I like complex stats), some people like complex some people like simple. Is it to far fetched to maybe rotate the style of PA?

Part of the stratagie is trying to predict the round. This is something that I have seen several people guess wrong about. Looking at what races have the best ships for fleet types and how they mix with everyother race. Its half the fun for me is when stats are revealed. In terms of unplayable aproaches sure there are a few of those but some ships are great on the defence it just adds more variables. Doesn't mean that everyone is going to use the ships but some people might this increases the probability of slightly more customized planets. The amount of ships and their targeting plays a HUGE factor for Zik. It makes a big difference even if some fail to see it. So what round 31 I would steal CATH DE ships and then make the Pegasus and the STK. Made for a very interesting secondary fleet that I could use to help others attack and what not. (Spiders were the shiznit at the time).

Any other questions on my logic?

[Teclis]

Originally Posted by Light

This is the main thing i hate about the PA Team.

Why are we reverting back to complicated/big stats? Has zPeti got enough members now, that he isnt trying to attract anymore?

These stats are extremly hostile to casuals and people who struggle to read/understand the stats. I really dont understand why we keep going round in circles, I thought the PA Team understood that we cant have complicated stats when we're trying to get new players into the game, that we need to actually make the game understandable to the new player.

Yeah, any active can read these stats and figure out roughly what ships they want to buy. However, whats a new player going to do? He's going to buy abit of everything and die horribly.

Rounds should not be caterded to casual players all the time its not fair the people who like to think over the complex stats. Switch it off IMHO

New Players were brought up and I missd it earlier so I'll comment now. Why not post your thoughts on the stats and the new players can hear the veterans thoughts and even get some good tips. You think simple stats are gonna help a new player? Thats really narrow sighted accually cause a new player still wont know what ships to get so they will still buy a bit of everything and get smashed. They will just have a little bit more in slightly more concentraited areas. Just removing 3-5 ships is not going to make a new player much better just cause ships were removed. If anything everyone else with have more dense fleets than say if there were more ships. So the new players spread out fleets would get rolled just has hard cause the ratio of ships doent really change much. Sure the numbers do but the ratio of a vets fleet vs a new players fleet would remain fairly close. Its all speculation on top of more speculation.

[Patrikc]

I see Zik's steal ships' a/c+d/c go down from last round's ~1000-1100, to ~800-900, like most normal ships. I'm not sure if it'll be a big problem, but Zik wasn't overpowered last round with those a/c d/c's, maybe they are a bit underpowered now?

[MiX]

Originally Posted by Teclis

Rounds should not be caterded to casual players all the time its not fair the people who like to think over the complex stats. Switch it off IMHO

New Players were brought up and I missd it earlier so I'll comment now. Why not post your thoughts on the stats and the new players can hear the veterans thoughts and even get some good tips. You think simple stats are gonna help a new player? Thats really narrow sighted accually cause a new player still wont know what ships to get so they will still buy a bit of everything and get smashed. They will just have a little bit more in slightly more concentraited areas. Just removing 3-5 ships is not going to make a new player much better just cause ships were removed. If anything everyone else with have more dense fleets than say if there were more ships. So the new players spread out fleets would get rolled just has hard cause the ratio of ships doent really change much. Sure the numbers do but the ratio of a vets fleet vs a new players fleet would remain fairly close. Its all speculation on top of more speculation.

Please dont ignore the part of requiring to team up.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Teclis

So the casuals aren't posting here? Ok how many different people are? Is it the entire population of PA? Dont think so, in that reguard do they not deserve to be represented? (no im not a casual) On top of that are casual players the only one who like simple stats? I dont think so (again I like complex stats), some people like complex some people like simple. Is it to far fetched to maybe rotate the style of PA?

It's not a case of casual players like simple stats. Stop trying to pigeonhole everyone into 3 random categories you just made up. More complex stats make it harder for new players to play. Stats like these are significantly more likely to lead to the less active, I'd say rank 400-1000, players effectively quitting and going idle because they couldn't be arsed. Rotate the style of PA? Sure. But not from friendly and intuitive to complicated and demanding.

Part of the stratagie is trying to predict the round. This is something that I have seen several people guess wrong about. Looking at what races have the best ships for fleet types and how they mix with everyother race. Its half the fun for me is when stats are revealed. In terms of unplayable aproaches sure there are a few of those but some ships are great on the defence it just adds more variables. Doesn't mean that everyone is going to use the ships but some people might this increases the probability of slightly more customized planets. The amount of ships and their targeting plays a HUGE factor for Zik. It makes a big difference even if some fail to see it. So what round 31 I would steal CATH DE ships and then make the Pegasus and the STK. Made for a very interesting secondary fleet that I could use to help others attack and what not. (Spiders were the shiznit at the time).

Any other questions on my logic?

I don't really have any idea how this part of your post is a reply to anything I said so no.

[Munkee]

lets face it anyone who has spent any time on pa will know, new players who sign up tend to build a small amount of every ship. They then send the whole lot to suicide on a member of your alliance. They defend ingal with all their ships and then post on the forums asking why everytime they defend they lose half their fleet. They post up a few questions and then they sort of realise how they should be building, even then with not half the success of the people who post on this thread.

Having a set of stats with so many ships let alone with so many races in pa does not help this scenario one bit. It waters down the average to noob level persons fleet and just lets them go out there and get dicked even further than i expect they normally would. The stats are just open to mistake after mistake with possibly only 3 decent fleet builds and the rest just being padding. CUT the fat, make some lean stats as per last round and simplify things so atleast someone with a slight intelligence signing up to a game they havent looked at before can pick a race and then a fleet within a few minutes without having to do some massive "stats analysis".

[Psi_K]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

It's not a case of casual players like simple stats. Stop trying to pigeonhole everyone into 3 random categories you just made up. More complex stats make it harder for new players to play. Stats like these are significantly more likely to lead to the less active, I'd say rank 400-1000, players effectively quitting and going idle because they couldn't be arsed. Rotate the style of PA? Sure. But not from friendly and intuitive to complicated and demanding.

Yet everyone is jumping for joy over your 3 pod setup ... ?
The complexity of your stats vs Zae's stats are so few and far between.
Because a two DE ships fire DE/FI and FR/CO makes a huge difference between one firing DE/FR and another firing CO/FI?
Edit: I Forgot he had made that change so it's more streamlined now, the differences between the two now are beyond minimal.

Of those 400-1000 ranked players, I would guess MAYBE 1% of them would actually have a huge issue between your two stats sets.

It's really trivial to be arguing these things.

[Tiamat101]

There is a problem if you make the stats too complicated, you neuter Cath and make zik/etd stronger. The problem that JBG made was he put 2 races into 1 mega class. Just change that and JBG's last round stats would be fine.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Psi_K

Yet everyone is jumping for joy over your 3 pod setup ... ?

It's intuitive. You look at it and you can see what you should build and you can see how it compares up against anything else. It's a lot easier to see the fleets and how they fit in with each other. It's a lot easier to build a fleet and attack with it. Honestly you'd think I'm here making shit up. For the love of god you've got someone posting above about how it's coming true even in the ****ing beta.

Of those 400-1000 ranked players, I would guess MAYBE 1% of them would actually have a huge issue between your two stats sets.

It's not about asking them. Most of them probably wouldn't care. I'm talking about how they'd respond. For god's sake I've probably forgotten more about stats than everyone else in this thread actually knows. Trust me on this, it's how the playerbase will react.


Here's another stats set for you
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?k...Sg&output=html
this is like a cross between my earlier 3 pod set and zae's in terms of complexity. If you can't see the actual differences between the three then I'd really advise taking up a less intellectually taxing activity.

[Makhil]

I think all the players with some common sense and the ability of seeing a bit farther than a bcalc result can understand all the negative implications of Zaejii set of stats for the game. Yet they'll be the ones able to play decently with those stats, so I regret that their view focussing unselfishly on the new user experience, was not taken more seriously.

I predict the ones who are calling for that set (maybe hoping to take advantage of the mess created) will be the ones quitting, or resetting their planets.

[Hude]

Originally Posted by Patrikc

I see Zik's steal ships' a/c+d/c go down from last round's ~1000-1100, to ~800-900, like most normal ships. I'm not sure if it'll be a big problem, but Zik wasn't overpowered last round with those a/c d/c's, maybe they are a bit underpowered now?

well it took me 2 mins to figure out that I'm not going zik with those efficiencies and I always (well 90%) go zik

[isildurx]

I agree on zik efficiencies having to be upped quite a bit.

[Buly]

The new players that build something of everything are atleast equally f**ked in a round with simple stats where you only build one shipclass.

People need to help the nubs and see to that they understand it right.

And any person that has played this game for 1 round should know how to look at the stats. This game is soooo simple, that it takes a simple person to even think that Zaejis stats are hard to look at compared to the others that have been posted here.

And there are still solo opportunities that take more than one deffleet to cover in those stats. Isn't it also quite fair? 1 attfleet vs 2 fleets (the one at base + the one defending). That attfleet is already outnumbered 2 to 1.

Isn't it also quite sad that a person doing stupid constructions (mass research centers) can stay as a t10 planet? Shouldn't not thinking with your ass be rewarded in this game? Looking at peoples comments here makes me think that we should go back to 2 shipclasses and all just have the same fleets.

[Henrik]

Originally Posted by isildurx

jbgs revamped stats plix!

yes ffs!!!!

[jelle]

Originally Posted by Makhil

I think all the players with some common sense and the ability of seeing a bit farther than a bcalc result can understand all the negative implications of Zaejii set of stats for the game. Yet they'll be the ones able to play decently with those stats, so I regret that their view focussing unselfishly on the new user experience, was not taken more seriously.

I predict the ones who are calling for that set (maybe hoping to take advantage of the mess created) will be the ones quitting, or resetting their planets.

Hut said it

[Henrik]

And yes, with zaejs stats zik are useless ter are useless.

Why not remove em then?

Zik needs to have 20-30% higher eff imo, and ter inits needs a fix.

[Makhil]

You must be mistaken. PA Team chose that set of stats, it has to be great. Impossible it would require such drastic changes.

[ricoshay]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

Here's another stats set for you
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?k...Sg&output=html
this is like a cross between my earlier 3 pod set and zae's in terms of complexity. If you can't see the actual differences between the three then I'd really advise taking up a less intellectually taxing activity.

I'm at work so I don't have much time to analyze, but the first thing that drew my attention is the cutlass. Targetted T1 by 2 TER ships, 2 cath ships, 2 xan ships and 1 etd ship. All together I would say that zik wont be able to play a FI/CO strategy but rather mass CR/BS and build brigands as FI/CO def.

This will decrease the zik utility inside the alliance by a fair bit, heh.

[Makhil]

i don't like ETD having only anti DE as T3 on that set

[MiX]

Originally Posted by Buly

The new players that build something of everything are atleast equally f**ked in a round with simple stats where you only build one shipclass.

People need to help the nubs and see to that they understand it right.

And any person that has played this game for 1 round should know how to look at the stats. This game is soooo simple, that it takes a simple person to even think that Zaejis stats are hard to look at compared to the others that have been posted here.

And there are still solo opportunities that take more than one deffleet to cover in those stats. Isn't it also quite fair? 1 attfleet vs 2 fleets (the one at base + the one defending). That attfleet is already outnumbered 2 to 1.

Isn't it also quite sad that a person doing stupid constructions (mass research centers) can stay as a t10 planet? Shouldn't not thinking with your ass be rewarded in this game? Looking at peoples comments here makes me think that we should go back to 2 shipclasses and all just have the same fleets.

Having played this game for too many rounds I can tell you that these stats are not simple. If to you they are not hard to look at then I gues you are overlooking many things. Also, please make me aware of any solo opurtunities which are not noob bashing and require more then 1 def fleet to cover.

ps. Everyone can make a mistake like mass res centres or another invalid tactic. If you can still attack decently you can still do ok. If this person with the mass res centres would end bottom last because the game is unforgiving do you think that would motivate to come and play again?

[isildurx]

There are opportunities to solo..

Terran FR should be able to hit caths, same with Ter CR and BS.
Ter BS can hit ziks, aswell as possibly etds.

Caths can as usual hit anything.

Xan CR can roid most things
Xan FR can roid some xans.

Ziks are as usual going to have to struggle roiding things solo, but their CR\BS could roid the likes of etd.

Etd can also, in theory, roid pretty much every race solo depending on what ships they focus on.

And yes, a single deffleet might easily be enough to stop most incs, but thats hardly something new.

In my opinion Terran and Zik needs to be looked at and upped a bit for them to be properly playable.

[MiX]

Originally Posted by MiX

... Also, please make me aware of any solo opurtunities which are not noob bashing and require more then 1 def fleet to cover....

[isildurx]

1 deffleet is pretty much always going to be enough to stop you if you hit someone BIGGER than you.

Caths, Etd and Xan can, imo, all hit targets bigger than themselves without one fleet being enough to stop them(ofc this depends on how big the f**king defencefleet is). Zik has 'never' been able to do that, without stealing ships first that is, and Terran, as I have already mentioned, look weak offensively and should be looked at(same with zik).

[Zaejii]

Originally Posted by Patrikc

I see Zik's steal ships' a/c+d/c go down from last round's ~1000-1100, to ~800-900, like most normal ships. I'm not sure if it'll be a big problem, but Zik wasn't overpowered last round with those a/c d/c's, maybe they are a bit underpowered now?

Originally Posted by isildurx

I agree on zik efficiencies having to be upped quite a bit.

Originally Posted by Hude

well it took me 2 mins to figure out that I'm not going zik with those efficiencies and I always (well 90%) go zik

R32:
Corsair Fi->De/Fr
Cutlass C->Fi/Co

Corsair	Fighter		-	-	-	-	-
 	 	Destroyer	Pegasus	Ter	0.19	105%	Steal Damage
 	 	Destroyer	Chimaera	Ter	0.18	105%	Steal Damage
 	 	Destroyer	Drake	Ter	0.18	105%	Steal Damage
 	 	Destroyer	Demeter	Ter	0.17	102%	Steal Damage
 	 	Destroyer	Spider	Etd	0.33	127%	Steal Damage
 	 	Destroyer	Lancer	Etd	0.33	141%	Steal Damage
 	 	Destroyer	Devastator	Etd	0.26	118%	Steal Damage
 	 	Destroyer	Vulture	Etd	0.36	140%	Steal Damage
 	 	Frigate   	Bomber	Xan	0.32	89%	Steal Damage
 	 	Frigate   	Haunt	Xan	0.52	200%	Steal Damage
 	 	Frigate   	Buccaneer	Zik	0.19	69%	Steal Damage
 	 	Frigate   	Thief	Zik	0.16	71%	Steal Damage
 	 	Frigate   	Privateer	Zik	0.16	77%	Steal Damage
 	 	Frigate   	Tycoon	Etd	0.24	69%	Steal Damage
 	 	Frigate   	Defender	Etd	0.26	78%	Steal Damage
 	 	Frigate   	Guardian	Etd	0.24	76%	Steal Damage
 	 	Frigate   	Merchant	Etd	0.28	85%	Steal Damage
Cutlass	Corvette		-	-	-	-	-
 	 	Fighter   	Harpy	Ter	1	86%	Steal Damage
 	 	Fighter   	Banshee	Xan	2.5	140%	Steal Damage
 	 	Fighter   	Phantom	Xan	2	131%	Steal Damage
 	 	Fighter   	Illusion	Xan	2.5	160%	Steal Damage
 	 	Fighter   	Corsair	Zik	1.66	105%	Steal Damage
 	 	Corvette	Beetle	Cat	0.66	78%	Steal Damage
 	 	Corvette	Viper	Cat	0.6	74%	Steal Damage
 	 	Corvette	Locust	Cat	0.5	71%	Steal Damage
 	 	Corvette	Mosquito	Cat	0.54	78%	Steal Damage
 	 	Corvette	Revenant	Xan	1	89%	Steal Damage
 	 	Corvette	Pulsar	Xan	0.85	86%	Steal Damage
 	 	Corvette	Dagger	Xan	0.75	84%	Steal Damage
 	 	Corvette	Cutlass	Zik	0.6	60%	Steal Damage

My Stats:
Cutlass Fi->Co/Fi
Smuggler Co->Fr/De

Cutlass	Fighter		-	-	-	-	-
 	 	Corvette	Phoenix	Ter	0.75	100%	Steal Damage
 	 	Corvette	Beetle	Cat	0.85	104%	Steal Damage
 	 	Corvette	Viper	Cat	0.66	103%	Steal Damage
 	 	Corvette	Mosquito	Cat	0.5	104%	Steal Damage
 	 	Corvette	Sentinel	Xan	1.2	150%	Steal Damage
 	 	Corvette	Apparition	Xan	3	312%	Steal Damage
 	 	Corvette	Smuggler	Zik	0.85	101%	Steal Damage
 	 	Fighter   	Harpy	Ter	0.6	66%	Steal Damage
 	 	Fighter   	Gnat	Cat	0.32	61%	Steal Damage
 	 	Fighter   	Phantom	Xan	0.72	75%	Steal Damage
 	 	Fighter   	Pulsar	Xan	0.72	75%	Steal Damage
 	 	Fighter   	Illusion	Xan	0.72	75%	Steal Damage
 	 	Fighter   	Cutlass	Zik	0.72	71%	Steal Damage
 	 	Fighter   	Galleon	Zik	0.24	150%	Steal Damage
 	 	Fighter   	Avenger	Etd	0.6	66%	Steal Damage
 	 	Fighter   	Vindicator	Etd	0.4	62%	Steal Damage
 	 	Fighter   	Merchant	Etd	0.36	60%	Steal Damage
Smuggler	Corvette		-	-	-	-	-
 	 	Frigate   	Pegasus	Ter	0.3	79%	Steal Damage
 	 	Frigate   	Drake	Ter	0.28	80%	Steal Damage
 	 	Frigate   	Chimaera	Ter	0.24	76%	Steal Damage
 	 	Frigate   	Minotaur	Ter	0.24	72%	Steal Damage
 	 	Frigate   	Locust	Cat	0.35	87%	Steal Damage
 	 	Frigate   	Termite	Cat	0.5	220%	Steal Damage
 	 	Frigate   	Ghost	Xan	0.6	105%	Steal Damage
 	 	Frigate   	Lancer	Xan	0.6	111%	Steal Damage
 	 	Frigate   	Bomber	Xan	0.66	129%	Steal Damage
 	 	Frigate   	Mirage	Xan	0.5	110%	Steal Damage
 	 	Frigate   	Thief	Zik	0.3	93%	Steal Damage
 	 	Frigate   	Buccaneer	Zik	0.27	92%	Steal Damage
 	 	Frigate   	Privateer	Zik	0.3	92%	Steal Damage
 	 	Frigate   	Pillager	Etd	0.3	90%	Steal Damage
 	 	Destroyer	Behemoth	Ter	0.3	158%	Steal Damage
 	 	Destroyer	Spider	Cat	0.27	49%	Steal Damage
 	 	Destroyer	Scarab	Cat	0.22	48%	Steal Damage
 	 	Destroyer	Widow	Cat	0.24	56%	Steal Damage
 	 	Destroyer	Dragonfly	Cat	0.15	47%	Steal Damage
 	 	Destroyer	Clipper	Zik	0.16	57%	Steal Damage
 	 	Destroyer	Predator	Etd	0.15	55%	Steal Damage
 	 	Destroyer	Devastator	Etd	0.14	55%	Steal Damage
 	 	Destroyer	Fireblade	Etd	0.11	50%	Steal Damage
 	 	Destroyer	Vulture	Etd	0.12	44%	Steal Damage

are you all even looking at the efficiencies, or are you just looking at the costs? there is a 5-10% difference at best (while having better targetting). the smuggler is a two tick def ship vs fr/de which is why it is a little "under par". do you all just want zik and cathaar to have 200% efficiency against everything? i mean seriously.

i can see why JBG gets rude with people on these forums, because instead of helping and giving intellectual comments about what is wrong and how to fix it (from an individual perspective), someone makes a comment and you all jump on the bandwagon.

and before you start on the Avenger again, yes its t2 has a falloff (as does the DE emp ship). if Avenger T2 was ~130% as JBG feels like it needs to be, noone in their right mind would pick Cathaar with the purpose of using its CO fleet. Cathaar is the emp race. Etd "borrows" other technologies. they should never be as effective or efficient as cathaar ships who are masters of 1 science. notice also that some of the Etd cloak ships do not have the init advantage in all cases like the Xan ships do.

maybe next round we do need 3 races. Terran (Rock) can have ships that attack Cathaar (scissors). Cathaar can attack Xan (Paper), and Xan can attack Terran - with the only defense possible being from the same race (Ter def Ter, Cat def Cat, Xan def Xan).

[Makhil]

Question #1 has been answered : What set of stat will be used
Now is time for question #2: When will the stats be final ?
because this: Stats are not final (nor yet updated) is just not possible in a p2p game.

[Buddah]

someone fix theese retarded stats! jbg?:/
worst stats since r28? xan cr wtfpwnage
gimme back a good non emp fico fleet!

[Gerbie2]

Zaeji: I don't see how you can look at those numbers and claim the difference is only 5-10%. For the cutlass yes, but definately not the smuggler. Furthermore it's not just about damage, but also armor. Zik ships fire late, so they need decent armor. Without it they die before stealing anything.
And yes: Xan Cr look strong.

[Cochese]

Etd Fi (though half emp) is ridiculous.

Xan CR is pretty leet too.

[Hude]

Originally Posted by Zaejii

are you all even looking at the efficiencies, or are you just looking at the costs?

Fine, let's be more specific.

You can't only take into account attack efficiencies without considering initiative and armor.

R32:

Harpy	Fighter		-	-	-	-	-
 	 	Corvette	Cutlass	Zik	0.6	69%
Beetle	Corvette		-	-	-	-	-
 	 	Corvette	Cutlass	Zik	1.65	140%	EMP, average value 
Locust	Corvette		-	-	-	-	-
 	 	Corvette	Cutlass	Zik	0.8	56%
Phantom	Fighter		-	-	-	-	-
 	 	Corvette	Cutlass	Zik	0.6	91%

This set:

Harpy	Fighter		-	-	-	-	-
 	 	Fighter	Cutlass	Zik	1	90%
Phoenix	Corvette		-	-	-	-	-
 	 	Fighter	Cutlass	Zik	0.84	63%
Gnat 	Fighter		-	-	-	-	-
 	 	Fighter	Cutlass	Zik	0.96	51%
Beetle	Corvette		-	-	-	-	-
 	 	Fighter	Cutlass	Zik	1.6	131%	EMP, average value 
Phantom	Fighter		-	-	-	-	-
 	 	Fighter	Cutlass	Zik	1	96%
Avenger	Fighter		-	-	-	-	-
 	 	Fighter	Cutlass	Zik	1.78	160%	EMP, average value

Not only the other races ability to take out the cutlass has increased but the number of same metaclass ships targeting it has increased too.

Last round there were 6 ziks in t50 and 16 in t100. A lot of high profile players went cath so I think ziks must have been pretty balanced.

Originally Posted by Zaejii

there is a 5-10% difference at best (while having better targetting).

Against:
Harpy 86% -> 66%
Phantom 131% -> 75%
Beetle 78% -> 104%

And then there is this ridiculous avenger which already fires first with 160% efficiency and then comes cutlass with it's 66% efficiency.

Originally Posted by Zaejii

i mean seriously.

Me too.

[Munkee]

Last round zik was pretty much balanced yes. It required effort to play imo and a little luck to make sure you ended up with some co or fi pods. I will say that any changes to lower their efficiency/armour will completely **** them .... i came t60 with zik btw and it took some luck in a not so great gal.

[Crantor]

I wish I could say I have this game figured out. I don't. I've played something over 10 rounds some early and the rest starting at 27. I've played in training alliances like HA and harder core like Denial. I log on before going to work, and live here for several hours in the evenings before bed. I'm addicted to this stupid game. Now the real comments.

I'm a n00b in every sense of the word. I haven't a clue how to read the blasted stats. I admit it, I use bcalc. I can calc an attack with the best of em. I can figure out the best mix of attacking fleets and what is needed to defend against me. I have no problem figuring out what I can or can not attack successfully. I've never been taught how to read the stats and I wish I had. I understand some of it, but not a lot. I look at what targets what, but I have no idea how to determine before a calc how strong one ship is compared to another. Technically that makes me somewhat of an idiot compared to everyone else in this post.

The main difference between me and a n00b is I don't give up and keep playing the game. I learn a little here, a little there but never quite enough. I understand the basics but the subtleties of how to build a fleet based on stats.........no. I team up most of the time and that gets me somewhere. I almost always have to recall after the first couple of weeks because of def so I'm doing things wrong. I just can't figure out what........why.......I can't figure out the stats to an extent that I understand how to take advantage of a weakness. The cost of this vs that based on strength and what it takes to kill what. I sit in the #pastats channel listening to all the conversations, and it's interesting but I wonder how in the world did these guys get that information by looking at greek stats.

I'm no genius, I'm not a fast learner, but I did graduate from college with a BS degree so I'm not a total moron, just very close. I have to bcalc everything and it works for me.

Do I think the stats are too complex, I guess I do since I can only partially read them. If there is a post explaining how to get the most from the stats I've somehow missed it and would like to be pointed in the right direction. I fall behind starting in the 3rd week of a round because that's when the good players take off running and leave me in their dust. I know the structure of the game, I can build a planet, but I just can't build the right fleet.

I admire you guys, you spend a lot of time digging into this, I frankly don't have the time to do that even though I spend hours here. I'm certainly no casual player. On weekends I may be online sometimes 10 hours a day. I don't miss many tic's when home so I hardly consider myself a casual player........just a stupid one.

Help us out. There are people like me out here that put heart and soul into the game.......hours on end. We aren't stupid we just haven't quite figured out everything. Maybe because it's only a game. I need help, forums, manuals. I see things all the time that people know that I can't find in a manual anywhere like what the factory costs mean when I build. A ships cost just so many resources......I spend em.......what do factory costs mean. Again if it's in a manual I haven't seen it. I read the stuff. I try to learn. I'm not a fast learner but I am persistent. Sometimes it may take me several rounds but then one day the light comes on and I say........wow it was so easy how could I not see that.

I love the game. But I'm not in the same class as you guys.

Not only that I get bashed in these forums for bad posts. My rating suks just like my play. I don't impress anyone enough to be taken seriously so I rarely post. I do read, and I do try to understand. I also beat a subject into the ground when I try to express myself, please forgive me.

I hope someone spends the time to read this and understand. I doubt it.

Crantor