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Unread 18 Nov 2003, 19:51   #151
MrL_JaKiri
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Verm your argument could almost be used against all forms of legal punishment as they can all be inherently biased. Or do you feel that the act of killing someone goes onto some sort of new level where laws have to be examined differently?
It's the only one that is eternally irreversable. Even if the justice system was 99% accurate, which I doubt it was, would it be right to kill one innocent man so that 99 guilty may die?
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Unread 18 Nov 2003, 19:52   #152
Dante Hicks
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

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Originally Posted by Vermillion
There is a reason the world is moving away from this barbaric form of institutionalised revenge, it is because people started to realise that the above utopic state is impossible.
I quite agree, which is I why I cannot forsee ever voting for the death penalty to be put in place (for instance). But if we're arguing over technicalities, then it doesn't matter how "barbaric" it is. Or vice-versa, for that matter. If you think the death penalty is barbaric, then it matters not if the justice system is NEVER wrong - you still should oppose the death penalty.

Basically, you need to seperate tactics from ethics.
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Unread 18 Nov 2003, 19:53   #153
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

Article 2 ECHR (simplified)

(1) Section protecting sanctity of life etc.

(2) Lists exceptions subject to the force being absolutely necessary:

(a) in defence of any person from unlawful violence.
(b) in order to effect a lawful arrest or to prevent the escape of a person lawfully detained
(c) in action lawfully taken for purpose of quelling riot or insurrection.

In my opinion a state that wishes to improve society (and therefore values life) should find it inappropriate to take away life. It's also for the state to sponsor the preservation of life wherever possible, not to condone execution where it sees fit - it leads some people to the idea that anyone can execute if they see fit to do so if the state does it itself. The right to life (as above) is not absolute. I ask this question - why is it necessary to protect society via the death penalty when imprisoning them indefinitely will do just the job? Basically life can (and should) only be violated when absolutely necessary and proportional to the threat involved unless lesser measures can be brought in.

The state should be there to set a good example to the citizens within it, that being that life is precious and is only necessary in the most trying and dramatic circumstances. Anything else merely breeds bad habits and is entirely counterproductive.
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Unread 18 Nov 2003, 19:59   #154
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
The state should be there to set a good example to the citizens within it,
Of them all, this is the worst argument I have heard against the death penalty.

Let's abolish taxation becaue it encourages extortion!

[edit]Plus, I agree with citizens carrying out "the death penalty" in some cases anyway.[/edit]
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Unread 18 Nov 2003, 20:00   #155
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Or do you feel that the act of killing someone goes onto some sort of new level where laws have to be examined differently?

As I have repeated numerous times, incarceration can be reversed and even compensated. Not only canit be done, but it happens all the time. Death is so far quite difficult to get around.

It is entirely a new level, and that is being slowly recognised. Recently a US governor banned the Death penalty in his state because several prisoners on death row had their convictions overturned after an independent examination of the process that put them there.

If an innocent man is executed, how exactly is that NOT premediated murder? Should the judges and jury then be brough up on capital charges?
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Unread 18 Nov 2003, 20:00   #156
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

Well no, since taxation isn't extortion. Its paying for the goods the government supplies for us.
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Unread 18 Nov 2003, 20:01   #157
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Question Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
The nature of the rights you are deprived of are more of a technical issue.
The nature of the eventual punishment, settlement etc is fundamental to justice. Justice is not whether you are tried, or arrested or put into temporary custody ; it's about what the eventual result of the process of dealing with a case is.

btw, are you saying that it doesn't matter what the process should be for the pursuit of justice, if indeed there should be one at all?
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Unread 18 Nov 2003, 20:01   #158
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

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Originally Posted by Bunga
Well no, since taxation isn't extortion. Its paying for the goods the government supplies for us.
I don't use the Eurofighter, I refuse to pay for it.
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Unread 18 Nov 2003, 20:01   #159
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Basically, you need to seperate tactics from ethics.
I see tham as being quite separate, two good reasons among many why there should not be a death penalty.
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Unread 18 Nov 2003, 20:01   #160
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunga
Well no, since taxation isn't extortion. Its paying for the goods the government supplies for us.
And if you don't pay, you go to prison. You have no choice in paying or not (some forms of taxation obviously). In some forms of criminal extortion, you get something in return, albeit of low value.
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Unread 18 Nov 2003, 20:03   #161
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

I don't think all my healthcare for the rest of my life, really cheap transportation and a polceforce, not to mention a military defense, is of "low value".

You may disagree, but economics says otherwise.
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Unread 18 Nov 2003, 20:04   #162
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunga
I don't think all my healthcare for the rest of my life, really cheap transportation and a polceforce, not to mention a military defense, is of "low value".

You may disagree, but economics says otherwise.
I have private health coverage, yet I still pay for the NHS.

The transport (the 'ation' is redundent) isn't cheap, and isn't government provided.

Our military doesn't mean diddly squat.
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Unread 18 Nov 2003, 20:05   #163
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
And if you don't pay, you go to prison. You have no choice in paying or not (some forms of taxation obviously). In some forms of criminal extortion, you get something in return, albeit of low value.
Social Contract.

You can feel free not to pay taxes, you just do not get to live in that nation/ state, most states in the world allow you to leave and revoke citizenship any time.

Paying rent on a house is not extortion, and you do not have the option of still living there and yet not paying the owner rent because you dont feel like it.
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Unread 18 Nov 2003, 20:05   #164
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
btw, are you saying that it doesn't matter what the process should be for the pursuit of justice, if indeed there should be one at all?
There are very good practical arguments for a need for a process, but they are divorced from the ethics of punishment (or justice generally).

Let's put it this way :

Scenario A : You kill someone in a random, unmotivated fashion (for a laugh, say) and the next day you are killed by that persons family members.

Scenario B : You kill someone in a random, unmotivated fashion, and then are arrested by police who have a warrant. You are then tried by an impartial judge and a jury of your peers who find you guilty. You go through several dozen appeals, and are finally sentenced to death. The warrant for your death is signed by a judge and by the Home Secretary (presuming capital punishment existed) and is then carried out.

I would say that 'Scenario A' and 'Scenario B' are equally "just" punishments.
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Unread 18 Nov 2003, 20:07   #165
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
There are very good practical arguments for a need for a process, but they are divorced from the ethics of punishment (or justice generally).

Let's put it this way :

Scenario A : You kill someone in a random, unmotivated fashion (for a laugh, say) and the next day you are killed by that persons family members.

Scenario B : You kill someone in a random, unmotivated fashion, and then are arrested by police who have a warrant. You are then tried by an impartial judge and a jury of your peers who find you guilty. You go through several dozen appeals, and are finally sentenced to death. The warrant for your death is signed by a judge and by the Home Secretary (presuming capital punishment existed) and is then carried out.

I would say that 'Scenario A' and 'Scenario B' are equally "just" punishments.
You're assuming it's completely random and unprevoked of course. That's a tad unlikely.
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Unread 18 Nov 2003, 20:08   #166
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

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Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
I have private health coverage, yet I still pay for the NHS.
Good for you. It seems silly to do that though.

Quote:
The transport (the 'ation' is redundent)
I'll agree for the sake of agreeing.
Quote:
isn't cheap,
yes it is. Less than 6 euros to go from Stockholm to Uppsala is darn cheap
Quote:
and isn't government provided.
yes it is.

Quote:
Our military doesn't mean diddly squat.
While I agree with this, most people don't.
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Unread 18 Nov 2003, 20:09   #167
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vermillion
You can feel free not to pay taxes, you just do not get to live in that state, most states in the world allow you to leave and revoke citizenship any time.
And go where? There is a considerable monopoly on land on this planet. I like living in the United Kingdom, I will purchase some land (again, another monopoly, but nvm). I don't want any government services, yet if I do not pay I will be imprisoned (or my posessesions will be seized, whichever)

Plus, I never signed no social contract . I work in rent. If we found out someone had been living in our property without permission we cannot charge them rent retrospectively. We have no legal agreement with that person, and it's considered unreasonable (in law) to charge them for it without prior notification. The tenancy/tax analogy doesn't hold up.
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Unread 18 Nov 2003, 20:10   #168
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

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Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
You're assuming it's completely random and unprevoked of course. That's a tad unlikely.
The nature of the crime really doesn't matter. OK instead of a random unprovoked original crime, I rape some girl and then slit her throat. That better?
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Unread 18 Nov 2003, 20:10   #169
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

There are a number of unclaimed islands in international water. Try them. Or the antarctic.
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Unread 18 Nov 2003, 20:12   #170
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

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Originally Posted by Bunga
There are a number of unclaimed islands in international water. Try them. Or the antarctic.
OK. I will move to Town A. I will then say to each shopkeeper they need to start paying me for "Protection". If they don't, I'll take away their shops, imprison them in my basement, or steal their stuff. If they don't like it, they can move.

And when people accuse me of extortion, I shall refer them to my legal counsel. Need a job?
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Unread 18 Nov 2003, 20:12   #171
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

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Originally Posted by Bunga
Good for you. It seems silly to do that though.
Seems sillier that there's no way to opt out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunga
I'll agree for the sake of agreeing. yes it is. Less than 6 euros to go from Stockholm to Uppsala is darn cheap yes it is.
Since your argument was universal, rather than restricted to your country, I'm using the example of mine. £4.80 return to Newcastle is not cheap, and the price is going up as the service goes down.

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Originally Posted by Bunga
While I agree with this, most people don't.
Yet you said that you thought the military was not of 'low value'. I'm confused.
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Unread 18 Nov 2003, 20:14   #172
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
The nature of the crime really doesn't matter. OK instead of a random unprovoked original crime, I rape some girl and then slit her throat. That better?
It would be just in an ideal world, however if someone came and killed my father because they claimed he'd raped and murdered a girl, I wouldn't exactly have any of it, and would probably be out for retribution myself.

The courts are a more open system; impartiality is vital.
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Unread 18 Nov 2003, 20:14   #173
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

The military is great.

The Royal Navy pays me money to eat fillet steak and drink port.
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Unread 18 Nov 2003, 20:15   #174
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

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Originally Posted by Proteus
The military is great.

The Royal Navy pays me money to eat fillet steak and drink port.
See? Our taxes are going on something any upstanding Trinity lad should be buying out of his own pocket.

DOWN WITH EM I SAY.
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Unread 18 Nov 2003, 20:18   #175
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
And go where? There is a considerable monopoly on land on this planet. I like living in the United Kingdom, I will purchase some land (again, another monopoly, but nvm). I don't want any government services, yet if I do not pay I will be imprisoned (or my posessesions will be seized, whichever)

Plus, I never signed no social contract . I work in rent. If we found out someone had been living in our property without permission we cannot charge them rent retrospectively. We have no legal agreement with that person, and it's considered unreasonable (in law) to charge them for it without prior notification. The tenancy/tax analogy doesn't hold up.
Yes it does. You pay for the benefits of staying, and despite your comments, in the UK you get many benefits for your money. If you do not like it, you have complete freedom to leave.

The fact that you have nowhere better to go is not an excuse, anymore than staying and not paying rent in a rented flat would be justified with the excuse that all places of equal value would charge the same rent.

You stay, you pay. For that payment you get innumerable benefits. You have the option of not paying, and not staying.


In fact, you get a much better deal than a tenant, every 4 years you get to vote and replace your landlord if you choose.
Thats not extortion, and complaining that you do not have the ability to get all the benefits of civilisation and membership in a state without paying for it does not make it extortion.
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Unread 18 Nov 2003, 20:18   #176
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

There is a way to opt out. Two ways in fact. Probably more.

1) Change the law.
2) Move out of the country.

How much would the petrol cost if you were to drive that distance? Add wear and tear of the car as well.

Over here we spend somewhere in the vicinity of 4 billion euros a year on our military. Not much compared to other countries, but we are smaller than many of course.
This provides employment for probably about half a million people directly and indirectly.
It helps us develope lots of high technology. Most notably our very good sonar and listening capabilities, but also flight technology and IT.

While I think we should scrap our military and spend the money on better things, it cannot be denied that our military is worth quite a lot. The fact that other things we could get for the same money is worth more is not so important, after all there are plenty of even worse ways we could spend the money.
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Unread 18 Nov 2003, 20:20   #177
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Exclamation Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I would say that 'Scenario A' and 'Scenario B' are equally "just" punishments.
That's not what I asked. I asked whether you thought that the system that is provided, if any, for the pursuit of justice is an irrelevant issue.

For one crime, one system may produce a just result, and the other may produce the same just result; this has nothing to do with my above question, and does nothing to ensure that a system is 'good' at justice, as a whole.
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Unread 18 Nov 2003, 20:21   #178
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunga
There is a way to opt out. Two ways in fact. Probably more.

1) Change the law.
2) Move out of the country.
Yes, very good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunga
How much would the petrol cost if you were to drive that distance? Add wear and tear of the car as well.
As it's about 12 miles, bugger all. Although this is moot as I don't have a car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunga
Over here we spend somewhere in the vicinity of 4 billion euros a year on our military. Not much compared to other countries, but we are smaller than many of course.
This provides employment for probably about half a million people directly and indirectly.
It helps us develope lots of high technology. Most notably our very good sonar and listening capabilities, but also flight technology and IT.

While I think we should scrap our military and spend the money on better things, it cannot be denied that our military is worth quite a lot. The fact that other things we could get for the same money is worth more is not so important, after all there are plenty of even worse ways we could spend the money.
I'd spend the money on research. You'll get much better technological results if that's what you like getting out of the military research. For defense you'd only need 5 ICBM's imo.
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Unread 18 Nov 2003, 20:23   #179
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
That's not what I asked. I asked whether you thought that the system that is provided, if any, for the pursuit of justice is an irrelevant issue.

For one crime, one system may produce a just result, and the other may produce the same just result; this has nothing to do with my above question, and does nothing to ensure that a system is 'good' at justice, as a whole.
I think it's clear he's 'ends justifying the means'ing.
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Unread 18 Nov 2003, 20:24   #180
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Of them all, this is the worst argument I have heard against the death penalty.

Let's abolish taxation becaue it encourages extortion!
Taxation is necessary to fund the operation of the state though. This leads to benefits for society as a whole as opposed to the general greed of extortion. If people didn't want to pay taxes (and I mean really didn't want taxes around) we'd be in something approaching a communist society, but we aren't. Extortion isn't tolerated by society, hence why people allow the state to act against it. To take your argument to its logical conclusion, any payment for a good/service would amount of extortion a simply ridiculous result.

How does executing someone benefit society (if you really want to go as far as cost based analysis) when you can just contain them at a similar cost (as has been discussed earlier in this thread)? In any case, putting monetary value to life is pretty horrific. Either execution or detention serves to protect society and of those two, the second one is the most preferable to preserve rights and human life if a state is meant to be a body focused to improving life for all people within it.
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Unread 18 Nov 2003, 20:24   #181
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I will purchase some land (again, another monopoly, but nvm). I don't want any government services, yet if I do not pay I will be imprisoned
Oh, and by the way, do you really not want any governmentservices? Asuming you can do without roads, water, electricity, fuel and grow your own food, you are still protected by government services. If you ever do truly opt out, then set up your land, and let me know where you are, because I will come over and murdr you and take it, after all you gave up the protection of the police and the courts...
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Unread 18 Nov 2003, 20:27   #182
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vermillion
Oh, and by the way, do you really not want any governmentservices? Asuming you can do without roads, water, electricity, fuel and grow your own food, you are still protected by government services. If you ever do truly opt out, then set up your land, and let me know where you are, because I will come over and murdr you and take it, after all you gave up the protection of the police and the courts...
I wouldn't say that water, electricity, food and fuel are provided by the government, unless you include all private enterprise under that heading.
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Unread 18 Nov 2003, 20:28   #183
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vermillion
As I have repeated numerous times, incarceration can be reversed and even compensated. Not only canit be done, but it happens all the time. Death is so far quite difficult to get around.

Quote:
It's the only one that is eternally irreversable. Even if the justice system was 99% accurate, which I doubt it was, would it be right to kill one innocent man so that 99 guilty may die?
Right, because recent studies have revealed that it's possible for us to go back in time and give the recently proved innocent man the last 10 years of his life back? Just admit you're drawing a line which you feel emotionally comfortable with so i can go back to bed.
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Unread 18 Nov 2003, 20:28   #184
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

12 miles is if memory serves...what? about 20 kilometers? Thats 40km there and back. That would cost... about £1.50? Since you don't have a car, $4,80 seems like a pretty fair price.

I don't want to derail this by ranting about the military (like I said, I wish we would scrap it) but lots of people consider a working defense important.

I still think the state provides lots of benefits which are much much cheaper than they would be if the private sector handled them. Even if the private sector would use a "opt-in" system.
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Unread 18 Nov 2003, 20:31   #185
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

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Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
I wouldn't say that water, electricity, food and fuel are provided by the government, unless you include all private enterprise under that heading.
Who built the roads in the first place? In most countries, it was the state.
Who built the railroad net? The state? Yup.
Who builds and maintains the power lines? Here it the state, and I know it used to be the state in every country in Europe.
Who built and maintains the ports where oil tankers bring oil to the country? Oh I think its the state again in most places.
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Unread 18 Nov 2003, 20:33   #186
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

I thought the utilities operated as competing companies under statutory authority, so there's some blurring to whether they are public or indeed private corporations.

And you don't have to pay taxes. You have the right to leave the country at any time you want.
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Unread 18 Nov 2003, 20:34   #187
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunga
12 miles is if memory serves...what? about 20 kilometers? Thats 40km there and back. That would cost... about £1.50? Since you don't have a car, $4,80 seems like a pretty fair price.
I think you mean £4.80 for the 2nd one. It's also MUCH MUCH MUCH cheaper on the busses, and the rate of increase of cost on the railways will increase above the rate of inflation (even though this is a fallacy, as the rail prices have been increasing well above the rate of inflation due to decreases in opportunities for cheaper tickets) despite constantly falling service.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunga
I still think the state provides lots of benefits which are much much cheaper than they would be if the private sector handled them. Even if the private sector would use a "opt-in" system.
The transport system IS privatised though. The electricity IS privatised though. The water IS privatised though. The gas IS privatised though.
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Unread 18 Nov 2003, 20:36   #188
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Right, because recent studies have revealed that it's possible for us to go back in time and give the recently proved innocent man the last 10 years of his life back? Just admit you're drawing a line which you feel emotionally comfortable with so i can go back to bed.
It's impossible to change the past, but compensation can be arranged. 10 years in then 30 years out is better than 10 years dead then 30 years dead.
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Unread 18 Nov 2003, 20:37   #189
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunga
Who built the railroad net? The state? Yup.
No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunga
Who built and maintains the ports where oil tankers bring oil to the country? Oh I think its the state again in most places.
Trinity owns the Port of Felixstowe, and I don't think we're the state (but I could be wrong).
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Unread 18 Nov 2003, 20:37   #190
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunga
Who built the roads in the first place? In most countries, it was the state.
Who built the railroad net? The state? Yup.
Who builds and maintains the power lines? Here it the state, and I know it used to be the state in every country in Europe.
Who built and maintains the ports where oil tankers bring oil to the country? Oh I think its the state again in most places.
Why should I pay now and in the future for things that were done in the past?
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Unread 18 Nov 2003, 20:37   #191
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

But who built the infastructure which the now-privatised companies used? In that sense it is the government which has provided you with the services.

If you use the thing in the present who cares when it was made?
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Unread 18 Nov 2003, 20:46   #192
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vermillion
Yes it does. You pay for the benefits of staying, and despite your comments, in the UK you get many benefits for your money. If you do not like it, you have complete freedom to leave.
The issue is not whether there are benefits, nor whether they are good benefits. The issue is being forced to pay, and realistically saying "You can leave" is no more of a defence than in my hypothetical example previously of criminalising an entire town. The issue is individual consent. Forcibly obtaining money from someone without a contract existing between the two parties is extortion. Once again, you people REALLY need to stop blurring the lines between ethical arguments are practical arguments.

None of this has anything to do with the death penalty though, so can everyone start a new thread for that, ffs! I just meant saying that people somehow "copy" the state is ludicrous.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
That's not what I asked. I asked whether you thought that the system that is provided, if any, for the pursuit of justice is an irrelevant issue.
The system used for the pursuit of justice is highly relevent in any practical discussion on how a country approaches these questions, but yes, is irrelevent to the issue I'm discussing (i.e. whether the death penalty is a just form of punishment).
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Unread 18 Nov 2003, 20:47   #193
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
It's impossible to change the past, but compensation can be arranged. 10 years in then 30 years out is better than 10 years dead then 30 years dead.

Quote:
Just admit you're drawing a line which you feel emotionally comfortable with so i can go back to bed.
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Unread 18 Nov 2003, 20:48   #194
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Exclamation Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vermillion
Why do you keep drawing paraboles between inprisonment and exeution, as if they were comparable? If someone is imprisoned, they can be released, and if deemed necessary, they can be compensated in other means.
How do you compensate someone for, say, 20 years of imprisonment? That hardly seems like a trivial matter to me. And in point of fact, most states in the US do not provide any compensation whatsoever for those wrongly imprisoned--they get a written apology from the prosecutor, or some such. They can take it to civil court, but unless they can prove malice or incompetence, they're SOL.

There is also no manditory review of most criminal cases (excluding those where the death penalty is involved), so many miscarriages of justice involving incarceration are undoubtably never uncovered.

Some people argue against the death penalty because they claim it prevents miscarriages of justice from being found and corrected; yet they show little interest in finding or correcting miscarriages of justice where the death penalty is not involved. I find that curious.
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Unread 18 Nov 2003, 20:50   #195
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunga
But who built the infastructure which the now-privatised companies used?
For the most part, privatised companies. Railways certainly. (See Proteus's post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunga
In that sense it is the government which has provided you with the services.

If you use the thing in the present who cares when it was made?
I don't see why I should pay the government for something which isn't owned by the government.

Should I be paying AMD for the ability to use my Athlon XP?
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Unread 18 Nov 2003, 20:52   #196
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

I have never met someone who does that. Of course, I have never met someone who argues for the death penalty who lives in a country which uses it.
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Unread 18 Nov 2003, 20:52   #197
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
Some people argue against the death penalty because they claim it prevents miscarriages of justice from being found and corrected; yet they show little interest in finding or correcting miscarriages of justice where the death penalty is not involved. I find that curious.
Surely this hypocracy is restricted to governmental agents, as I personally can do very little for incarcerated prisoners.
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Unread 18 Nov 2003, 20:55   #198
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vermillion
What statistics exactly? Certainly not the ones we both have quoted above. Those, and combined with the department of justice stats (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/prisons.htm) Show that blacks form 12% of the US population, 37% of the penal population, and 44% of the Death Row population. How exactly does that show that whites are more likely to get the death penalty than blacks?
Those numbers do nothing to support either side of the argument because they don't mention what percent of capitol crimes are committed by blacks.

"According to the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics, blacks committed 51.5% of murders between 1976 and 1999, while whites committed 46.5%. Yet even though blacks committed a majority of murders, the Bureau of Justice Statistics reports: "Since the death penalty was reinstated by the Supreme Court in 1976, white inmates have made up the majority of those under sentence of death." (Emphasis added.) Whites continued to comprise the majority on death row in the year 2000 (1,990 whites to 1,535 blacks and 68 others). In the year 2000, 49 of the 85 people actually put to death were whites."

This isn't perfect either, because not all murders are the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vermillion
So there goes your moral argument entirely then. Ok, just wanted to be clear.

So your problem with the Nigeria stoning was not that a young woman was being stoned to death, but that her lover was not also being stoned to death?

Let me put this another way. Why EXACTLY do you support the death penalty?
I think I've been very explicit in stating that I am against the death penalty.

To the Nigeria deal: I'm against that because stoning is barbaric, because I'm against the death penalty, and because I don't feel she deserved any punishment. Whether or not her lover was punished doesn't matter.
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Unread 18 Nov 2003, 20:55   #199
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
I don't see why I should pay the government for something which isn't owned by the government.

Should I be paying AMD for the ability to use my Athlon XP?
Well since you do whenever you buy an AMD processor, yes.
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Unread 18 Nov 2003, 20:57   #200
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunga
Well since you do whenever you buy an AMD processor, yes.
That's a one off payment though, not a continuation of fees for something that has already been paid for and is no longer theirs.
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