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Unread 22 Oct 2003, 23:00   #1
Dilly_D
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Abortions illegal in the USA?

http://www.msnbc.com/news/983016.asp

I know that first tri-mester abortions will still be legal, but can you make late term abortion illegal while still allowing early term abortion?

To quote a former Prime Minister of Canada, Pierre Trudeau: "The state has no place in the bedrooms of the nation." Would this statement apply to the abortion debate? Is this the right thing for the Bush administration to be doing...telling people that they have no right to their body?

'discuss'
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Unread 22 Oct 2003, 23:03   #2
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

No-one has the right to kill another human being unless in self defence.

The question of course is whether unborn foetuses are "human beings" (I happen to believe they are).

And not many people have abortions in their bedrooms.
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Unread 22 Oct 2003, 23:04   #3
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Surely most countries that allow abortions set a "best before" date, after which abortions become illegal?
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Unread 22 Oct 2003, 23:11   #4
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunga
Surely most countries that allow abortions set a "best before" date, after which abortions become illegal?
I don't know anyhing about actual law, but either the fetus is viable or it isn't; if it isn't, I don't see the point in pretending it's human; if it is, we should try to deliver it if possible.
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Unread 22 Oct 2003, 23:19   #5
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dilly_D
http://www.msnbc.com/news/983016.asp

I know that first tri-mester abortions will still be legal, but can you make late term abortion illegal while still allowing early term abortion?

To quote a former Prime Minister of Canada, Pierre Trudeau: "The state has no place in the bedrooms of the nation." Would this statement apply to the abortion debate? Is this the right thing for the Bush administration to be doing...telling people that they have no right to their body?

'discuss'
Maybe the reason why first trimester abortion is legal, because "they" try to "pleased" both sides (anti- and proabortionists). To be honest I don't know. I think it should be illegal even to think about abortion.
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Unread 22 Oct 2003, 23:30   #6
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Exclamation Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

The law only prohibits certain types of abortions (so-called "partial birth" abortions) and will almost certainly be challenged in court.

I'm puzzled, however, as to why the Senate Democrats decided to rollover on this issue. Just Monday they blocked a bill for much-needed lawsuit reform by threatening a filibuster; but yesterday--pfffftt!

It used to be that the Democrats could at least be counted on to protect abortion rights, but now it seems they aren't even willing to do that. Feh.
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 01:12   #7
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

As the US gov. is run by Christian fundermentalists it's hardly surprising.

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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 01:14   #8
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Damn those Christian fundermentalists.
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 06:17   #9
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dilly_D
http://www.msnbc.com/news/983016.asp

I know that first tri-mester abortions will still be legal, but can you make late term abortion illegal while still allowing early term abortion?
i belive there is a "small" diffrence between aborting a 3 week old fetus, and crushing in a skull 6-8 (or more) month old fetus.

EDIT:

I guess crushed is a bit incorrect. First a hole is made in the head, then the brain is sucked out, THEN the head is collapsed. After that, the fetus is removed. (this is for a partial birth abortion. and yes there are a few more steps than that, and i may have it all wrong, if i do, please correct me beause i'm not a doctor)
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 07:31   #10
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

I like the irony of a country that banging on about 'saving the life of babies' - when statistically some of those would have been terminated pregnacies devolope into people who go out with easy access to automatic fire arms and kill ........ then get sentenced to death.

......and i think those rag heads babies who died in Iraq due to the heavy sanctions
- and those in Iraq, Afganistan who got hit in the colatoral damage of those justified wars
- and those in the third world in general starving to death because they aren't as good as us
- and those whos future world is being steadily poisoned by the need not to restrict chemical and industrial plants waste products entering the environment as it will cost coporations profits.
..... along with the major importance of keepimg everything reliant on the petrol chemical industry for power and transport as the president and family shares would be devalued.
- and those killed with weapons sold to or funded to regimes around the world because its important not to stifle such a profitable industry.
etc
etc
etc

.... life is so precious - i wonder what its share price would be on the Dow
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 09:11   #11
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

You've got to draw the line somewhere. If you're going to ban first term abortions you might as well ban men from masturbating cos it kills untold millions of sperm cells.
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 09:12   #12
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by queball
I don't know anyhing about actual law, but either the fetus is viable or it isn't; if it isn't, I don't see the point in pretending it's human; if it is, we should try to deliver it if possible.
What do you mean by viable? Surely a fetilised egg is "viable" in the strictest sense that it could become a human if it had the right conditions (well, sometimes). Conversely, as far as I'm aware, a lot of 6 month old fetuses (say) would die without the right conditions, etc. In fact, I'd die without the right conditions (Water, air, etc) - so I'm not sure what you mean here. Or do you just mean able to survive outside the womb full-stop? What about surviving outside the womb but with super-duper tech keeping it alive?

I'd agree with Proetus on the point of the argument : either it's human or it's not. I don't think it is, based on the development, nervous system, 'consciousness', etc. I'm sure at some point, it crosses the line into human-being (well, obviously it does) - but I'll leave the specifics to the medical profession for now.
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 09:16   #13
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

The only people qualified to sort out abortion are women, not some dumb arsed politicians who have never been in a situation that may warrant an abortion.

I think it's wrong but I see why, for some women, it is a viable option.

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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 09:30   #14
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaio
The only people qualified to sort out abortion are women, not some dumb arsed politicians who have never been in a situation that may warrant an abortion.
Let people make these decisions themselves?
Down that road lies anarchy!
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 09:37   #15
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

First up, early foetuses do not possess the characteristics that form the material basis of being a human being. If you believe in a soul that is independent of the body, then (apart from the fact that aristotlean metaphysics have been discredited for some time now) you would have a point of sorts; but religious belief has no place among practitioners of either politics or medicine.

Second, the classic "you'll only drive it underground" argument that applies to drugs also applies here, with an increased risk to personal safety.

Third, 'viability' is just an expedient way of dividing foetuses (sp?) with human rights from those without; it does not, as far as I am aware, have a basis in the development of the CNS. However, the question of how extensive a nervous system is needed for conciousness is going to be difficult to answer, if it is even meaningful.

Fourth, obviously abortion procedures in cases which present a major risk to the mother can be justified (remember that it is only recently that child birth ceased to be the major cause of death among women).

In light of the difficulties in reconciling definitions of humanity, I believe the second point should be viewed as decisive.
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 09:37   #16
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Either anarchy or reason

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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 09:45   #17
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Or both.
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 09:48   #18
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

you have to leave it up to human choice, the state should not try and control this isue, as it raises emotions whatever they do, but i personally also believe that late term abortions should be illegal (i think they are in britain, but i could be wrong, its been a long time since we looked at this in 'RE' at school )
but i dont have a problem with early abortions, especially if the mother is emotionally un-equiped to handle having a child, and dont say adoption, as for some ppl, that is not a viable option either, as it can cause emotional problems as well
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 09:51   #19
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by G_frog
First up, early foetuses do not possess the characteristics that form the material basis of being a human being. If you believe in a soul that is independent of the body, then (apart from the fact that aristotlean metaphysics have been discredited for some time now) you would have a point of sorts; but religious belief has no place among practitioners of either politics or medicine.
What is the material basis of being a human being?

They have human DNA and are part of the way to becoming an adult human being - just to a lesser extent than a baby or a child.

Quote:
Originally Posted by G_frog
Third, 'viability' is just an expedient way of dividing foetuses (sp?) with human rights from those without; it does not, as far as I am aware, have a basis in the development of the CNS. However, the question of how extensive a nervous system is needed for conciousness is going to be difficult to answer, if it is even meaningful.
I don't see what consciousness could possibly have to do with it. It's not like people in comas lose their human rights because they aren't conscious.
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 12:22   #20
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dilly_D
http://www.msnbc.com/news/983016.asp

I know that first tri-mester abortions will still be legal, but can you make late term abortion illegal while still allowing early term abortion?

To quote a former Prime Minister of Canada, Pierre Trudeau: "The state has no place in the bedrooms of the nation." Would this statement apply to the abortion debate? Is this the right thing for the Bush administration to be doing...telling people that they have no right to their body?

'discuss'
Is there a chance the she will give birth to a cow? I didn't think so. Abortation is murder. Yeah for one more step to compeletly banning it.
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 13:51   #21
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dilly_D
http://www.msnbc.com/news/983016.asp

I know that first tri-mester abortions will still be legal, but can you make late term abortion illegal while still allowing early term abortion?

To quote a former Prime Minister of Canada, Pierre Trudeau: "The state has no place in the bedrooms of the nation." Would this statement apply to the abortion debate? Is this the right thing for the Bush administration to be doing...telling people that they have no right to their body?

'discuss'
"The state has no place in the bedrooms of the nation" is one of the most idiotic arguments ever. The fact that the supreme court just repeated it is somewhat embarassing. Surely they don't mean that killing in the bedroom is okay, but then right to lifers argue that abortion is killing, so you are back at square one. ****ing Canadians.

Anyway, abortion costs society nothing because society has no investment put into fetuses. In fact, unwanted children (especially in poor communities) are serious deadweight. And arguments that fetuses are people is demeaning to humanity. If the essential human characteristics are anatomical layout and DNA structure, than I don't see anything wrong with killing anybody.

As to the Democrats, good for them for letting this through. A slim minority of ultra-lefties and women's rights advocates were against this bill, and they will all vote for Dems anyway. This takes away the first, second, and last arguments made by pro-lifers in every debate.
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 13:58   #22
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Hrmph.

There is one good argument to allow abortion. Rape victims. When you've meet someone who's so Mr. Wrong that he won't take no for an answer, 'killing' a fetus could be looked upon as self defence. After all, why should the bad guys be allowed to reproduce trough sexual violence?

Altough I do have a bad feeling about it, I'd allow it. But, well, you know, I don't really am knowledgeable at the three months limit. I don't have an answer for that.
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 15:59   #23
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ggGGgg
Hrmph.

There is one good argument to allow abortion. Rape victims. When you've meet someone who's so Mr. Wrong that he won't take no for an answer, 'killing' a fetus could be looked upon as self defence. After all, why should the bad guys be allowed to reproduce trough sexual violence?

Altough I do have a bad feeling about it, I'd allow it. But, well, you know, I don't really am knowledgeable at the three months limit. I don't have an answer for that.
the rape thing is a horrible argument. The fetus didn't rape her, why should it be punished? Might as well kill the rapist's other (older) children.

If abortion is murder than it's wrong no matter what, and shouldn't be allowed under any circumstance (you could give self-defense if there were genuine life-threatening medical issues maybe).
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 16:00   #24
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
the rape thing is a horrible argument. The fetus didn't rape her, why should it be punished? Might as well kill the rapist's other (older) children.

If abortion is murder than it's wrong no matter what.
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 16:50   #25
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

I am really surprised that people as young as I am assuming some of you are (IE under 40) still think abortion is "murder"

I had thought that partial birth-abortions were illegal already.

Choosing to have an abortion, or not, IS a private issue. No one has no right whatsoever to tell someone that they HAVE to have a child. Especially if the girl was raped, but I think that applies to anyone regardless of the circumstances.

I am not saying that abortions should be used as a means of birth control. Anyone who does such a thing is a moron when such easy methods of birth control are available for practically free. But I am saying that you have absolutely no right to tell a woman that she has to carry a child to term, regardless of the circumstances.

We have enough unfit mothers out there as it is. Imagine if abortion were illegal!

I am not ashamed to say that if I became pregnant, I would not have the baby. I am taking the necessary precautions to not get pregnant, but if it happens, it happens. However, I am not at a time in my life where I am mature or financially independent enough to support a child. I want a career that’s going to take at least another 10 years to get fully established in, having a baby would, of course, interrupt my life plan.

But more importantly, I am not ready/mature enough to be a mother in anyway! What kind of hell would I be putting the child through by having it and then not being fit enough to raise it? I’m hardly responsible enough to take care of myself, much less a whole other person.

Of course you are all thinking of adoption. But I would still have to carry the baby for nine months. I am not fit to even do that. Then to give it up to someone else, I am not sure I could handle that either. And most women could not. Even the most unfit mother might change her mind and keep the child!

People have babies too quickly in this world. I see so many kids suffering because their parents had children too young, or because their parents just weren’t ready for that kind of responsibility it takes to raise a child. It’s awful to make the baby suffer because people can’t get it together to realize they shouldn’t have children. Now imagine what the world would be like if these people who knew they couldn’t handle a baby, had to have one anyway.
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 16:53   #26
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

in china you're only allowed 2 kids (i think it's still 2) and most of them kill their daughters so they can have sons
i think that should be more of an issue than an unfit mother having an abortion
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 16:54   #27
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Only if you believe the call-off-the-right that abortion is murder. Seeing as a person is not being killed, it is not murder. 'Potential' life is not life by any non-religious definitionl otherwise (as has been stated earlier) please explain to me in very clear non-religious terms the difference between a sperm and an early term foetus.

Of course, here we must ignore third trimester abortions (which as has been stated, are illegal in most places unless the life of the mother is in danger). In those cases, it is in theory possible, under intensive medical care, for the foetus to survive outside the womb, so I can see an argument being made there.

However, until that time, it is a collection of cells with no capacity to survive on its own. It is not a person, and thus is cannot be murdered. Religious arguments would tell you otherwise, but in most western countries, religion does not make the law, (in many there is a specific separation of church and state) and so cannot be taken into account.

Frankly, I have always agreed that if you speak out against abortion, then you should be compelled to take an unwanted infant into your home and raise it. Putting your money where your mouth is, so to speak.
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 16:55   #28
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aryn
in china you're only allowed 2 kids (i think it's still 2) and most of them kill their daughters so they can have sons
i think that should be more of an issue than an unfit mother having an abortion
Actually it's only one (two if you live in the countryside and the first one is a girl). The infanticide rate for baby girls has gone done a lot, but int he countryside, it is much higher. (Boys work on the farm, etc, and will take care of the parents, while girls go off to another man's house when they get married).
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 16:56   #29
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

to answer vermillion
i am pro-choice
but i don't plan on having kids.. i'd prolly adopt
my reasoning is.. there's enough homeless kids in the world.. why bring another child in when i could house one that's already here?
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 16:56   #30
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sinnamon xie
Actually it's only one (two if you live in the countryside and the first one is a girl). The infanticide rate for baby girls has gone done a lot, but int he countryside, it is much higher. (Boys work on the farm, etc, and will take care of the parents, while girls go off to another man's house when they get married).
ah ok
i knew i was a bit outdated
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 16:58   #31
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

There are lots of chinese baby girls up for adoption Dani!

I actually knew a couple in Nanjing that had just had a baby girl. She was so cute and it was obvious that they loved her very much.

The problem is the huge gap between city and countryside in China. Ofc, this has been a problem for centuries :P
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 17:00   #32
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

In college I did a lot of reading on the subject of abortion and discovered that there were no sweeping generalizations or easy answers. However, the only way that people can have any sort of control over their destinies and biology is for abortion to be kept safe and legal. In a perfect world abortion wouldn't be necessary, but that's not how the world is.

By the way, deciding that a feutus is a "person" is a rather arbitrary decision. For example: until the end of the 1800s abortion was permitted in the Catholic church. They had a concept called "ensoulment" which meant that before a certain time the fetus had no soul and could therefore be killed without it being a sin. I think this "ensoulment" occurred at the end of the first trimester, when the fetus started moving on its own.
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 17:04   #33
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Proteus
What is the material basis of being a human being?

They have human DNA and are part of the way to becoming an adult human being - just to a lesser extent than a baby or a child.

I don't see what consciousness could possibly have to do with it. It's not like people in comas lose their human rights because they aren't conscious.
My point was that it is in conciousness that most non-religious people would place the moral worth of human beings. This is relevant in light of that fact that the 'potential' to become a human being is hardly sufficient - if it were we'd be able to use python songs as a valid argument. In any case, legislating on the basis of people acting to the assumed detriment of the future would be a wierd precedent.

I don't think simple mass of living tissue cuts it either. However - as you point out - situations entailing a temporary loss of conciousness can pose a problem with my proposed view. I was alluding to this and other difficulties with what, if anything, conciousness is, when I remarked "if it is even meaningful". Hence, I thought my second point was the only decisive one, and said so.
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 17:29   #34
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Exclamation Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
the rape thing is a horrible argument. The fetus didn't rape her, why should it be punished?
But it's OK to punish the rape victim further, by forcing her to carry a child to term???
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 17:30   #35
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

tactitus, READ THE WHOLE POST
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 17:34   #36
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aryn
to answer vermillion
i am pro-choice
but i don't plan on having kids.. i'd prolly adopt
my reasoning is.. there's enough homeless kids in the world.. why bring another child in when i could house one that's already here?
Pro-Choice, Pro-Murder, Pro-Killer.

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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 17:37   #37
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ggGGgg
Hrmph.

There is one good argument to allow abortion. Rape victims. When you've meet someone who's so Mr. Wrong that he won't take no for an answer, 'killing' a fetus could be looked upon as self defence. After all, why should the bad guys be allowed to reproduce trough sexual violence?

Altough I do have a bad feeling about it, I'd allow it. But, well, you know, I don't really am knowledgeable at the three months limit. I don't have an answer for that.
Yes, and why where at it. Lets kill all the poor people cause its self defense since they commit a large amount of crimes.
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 17:46   #38
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sinnamon xie
I am really surprised that people as young as I am assuming some of you are (IE under 40) still think abortion is "murder"
Just because some people have lost all sense of morality doesn't mean everyone has.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sinnamon xie
Choosing to have an abortion, or not, IS a private issue. No one has no right whatsoever to tell someone that they HAVE to have a child. Especially if the girl was raped, but I think that applies to anyone regardless of the circumstances.
No one did force her to have the child. She had sex. Sex produces babies. It's not like someone sneaked up in the middle of the night and inseminated her in her sleep.

She, however, does not have the right to kill a human being just because they happen to be living inside her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sinnamon xie
I am not saying that abortions should be used as a means of birth control. Anyone who does such a thing is a moron when such easy methods of birth control are available for practically free. But I am saying that you have absolutely no right to tell a woman that she has to carry a child to term, regardless of the circumstances.
It's not "regardless of the circumstances". If her health is at risk, she can have an abortion. Otherwise she should be stuck with the baby, which is alive as a result of her decision to have sex.

And before someone mentions the whole "but it's dependent on her" nonsense, lots of people are dependent on other people, but that doesn't mean they lose their human rights.

If a woman was abandoned on a desert island with her baby, that baby would be completely dependent on her. It would have no other way of supporting itself except by being fed by its mother. That woman does not have the right to kill that baby.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sinnamon xie
We have enough unfit mothers out there as it is. Imagine if abortion were illegal!
If abortion were illegal, then people might think twice before having unprotected sex.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sinnamon xie
I am not ashamed to say that if I became pregnant, I would not have the baby. I am taking the necessary precautions to not get pregnant, but if it happens, it happens. However, I am not at a time in my life where I am mature or financially independent enough to support a child. I want a career that’s going to take at least another 10 years to get fully established in, having a baby would, of course, interrupt my life plan.

But more importantly, I am not ready/mature enough to be a mother in anyway! What kind of hell would I be putting the child through by having it and then not being fit enough to raise it? I’m hardly responsible enough to take care of myself, much less a whole other person.

Of course you are all thinking of adoption. But I would still have to carry the baby for nine months. I am not fit to even do that. Then to give it up to someone else, I am not sure I could handle that either. And most women could not. Even the most unfit mother might change her mind and keep the child!

People have babies too quickly in this world. I see so many kids suffering because their parents had children too young, or because their parents just weren’t ready for that kind of responsibility it takes to raise a child. It’s awful to make the baby suffer because people can’t get it together to realize they shouldn’t have children. Now imagine what the world would be like if these people who knew they couldn’t handle a baby, had to have one anyway.
All that is just nonsense. All the suffering it would cause you is completely irrelevant. No amount of pain or suffering is justification enough to kill someone.

And about the kids suffering because their parents had them too early: I'm sure they'd rather be suffering than dead.
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 17:55   #39
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Proteus, the thing is that when you abort you don't "kill someone". You don't commit murder. Unless its a very, very late abortion. A feutus is not a baby. It can be a potential baby, but it is not a baby, not a person. A young feutus has no more human rights than a sperm or an ova has. They too are potential babies. But not babies.
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 17:58   #40
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Proteus
What is the material basis of being a human being?
On this topic I'd go with Descartes description. Anyway, if DNA etc. made a human a human, than a properly created virus could turn someone into something that was anatomically identical to a human, intellectually identical to a human, but, to you, fair game for killing. Pile of nosense to me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vermillion
Frankly, I have always agreed that if you speak out against abortion, then you should be compelled to take an unwanted infant into your home and raise it. Putting your money where your mouth is, so to speak.
I've always said that if you are against the death penalty, you should have to take care of our murderers and rapists. Or pay all taxes necessary for prisons and guards and food to house them. Fair nuff?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
But it's OK to punish the rape victim further, by forcing her to carry a child to term???
If they have equal rights, then the lesser of two evils is to take a few months of the mother's freedom vs. a lifetime of the childs. Obviously. The fact that she was raped makes no difference to the case whatever (as neither the fetus nor the mother did the raping, you can't claim either forfeited previously held rights).
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 18:02   #41
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunga
Proteus, the thing is that when you abort you don't "kill someone". You don't commit murder. Unless its a very, very late abortion. A feutus is not a baby. It can be a potential baby, but it is not a baby, not a person. A young feutus has no more human rights than a sperm or an ova has. They too are potential babies. But not babies.
In your opinion.

I don't consider them "potential" people, I consider them people.

People who haven't been born yet, but people nonetheless, and people who need their rights protected.

And I don't like the "living without outside help" argument either. Is someone on a life support machine not a person? Is someone having a heart bypass operation not a person? In fact, is someone who needs regular drug treatment (a diabetic, for instance) not a person either? They aren't living without outside support...
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 18:03   #42
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

You guys are total twat that know nothing about America the great...

America is the country fighting against terrorism(even if we killed milions of innocents through sanctions and setted many regimes of terrors, IE chilia in 1973)
America is the country of freedom of speech(even if the FBI and CIA raids house of protesters)
America is the country seeking peace(thats why we have choosen unlimited war on terror rather then actually find out why terrorism against the United States exists)

**** YOU TWAT, AMERICA ROCKS!
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 18:03   #43
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Exclamation Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
If they have equal rights, then the lesser of two evils is to take a few months of the mother's freedom vs. a lifetime of the childs. Obviously. The fact that she was raped makes no difference to the case whatever (as neither the fetus nor the mother did the raping, you can't claim either forfeited previously held rights).
But I don't accept the premise that they have equal rights.
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 18:04   #44
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

So you never masturbate then? Or, if you are a woman, you never menstruate? Since each of those ova and sperm are also people who haven't been born yet. And they need their rights protected.
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 18:05   #45
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Proteus
In your opinion.

I don't consider them "potential" people, I consider them people.

People who haven't been born yet, but people nonetheless, and people who need their rights protected.

And I don't like the "living without outside help" argument either. Is someone on a life support machine not a person? Is someone having a heart bypass operation not a person? In fact, is someone who needs regular drug treatment (a diabetic, for instance) not a person either? They aren't living without outside support...
By that "outside support" definition we all have outside support (food, air, water, heat etc.)

The proper thing to note is that in general no individual is forced by law to provide support to any of the others you list. Except for fetuses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunga
So you never masturbate then? Or, if you are a woman, you never menstruate? Since each of those ova and sperm are also people who haven't been born yet. And they need their rights protected.
neither sperm nor ovum have a DNA structure equivalent to that of a human, and as we all know it is the equivalent DNA structure that makes them human (so masturbating isn't killing)
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 18:06   #46
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunga
Proteus, the thing is that when you abort you don't "kill someone". You don't commit murder. Unless its a very, very late abortion. A feutus is not a baby. It can be a potential baby, but it is not a baby, not a person. A young feutus has no more human rights than a sperm or an ova has. They too are potential babies. But not babies.
A potential baby??? BHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, so what your saying is it could be a cow or chicken. A baby begins at conterception, take a DNA sample its human.

Also, to settle the aboration argument. I want to catholic school and a rape victim according to the church has the right to go and stop conception by going to the hospital with in 24 hours. After that tuff shit, no need to commit another crime of murder because you where raped.

Happly, I live in the thought that someday the Pro-Lifers will really outpopulate the Pro-Murders because the they will be killing off their supporters. Clearly they have no forsight in tactics.
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 18:07   #47
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

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Originally Posted by Bunga
Since each of those ova and sperm are also people who haven't been born yet. And they need their rights protected.
They become (little) people at the moment of conception.
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 18:08   #48
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

A sperm also contains all the DNA required for a human being. It is also a potential human being.
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 18:09   #49
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
But I don't accept the premise that they have equal rights.
Why not? This is the essential question.

Because the fetus isn't a 'person',

or because some classes of people are inferior to others and therefore don't have the same rights?
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 18:09   #50
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunga
A sperm also contains all the DNA required for a human being. It is also a potential human being.
Wrong, a sperm only has half and the egg has the other half.
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