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Unread 20 Oct 2003, 20:25   #201
wu_trax
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Re: The EU wants its own military.

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Originally Posted by Intrepid00
I found a page that projected that it would only be 40%-60% and it was much lower then it was back in the 70s and 60s.
i only know the figure of 11 trillion (+/- 500 billion) for the us GNP. for 6-7 trillion of debt that would be something between 60 and 70%
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Unread 20 Oct 2003, 20:30   #202
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Exclamation Re: The EU wants its own military.

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Originally Posted by Intrepid00
Yeah, a lot of the US Debt is due to those lovely Savings Bonds.
Hehe. No.

http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/faq.html
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Unread 21 Oct 2003, 14:30   #203
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Re: The EU wants its own military.

here is one for Proteus
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Unread 21 Oct 2003, 14:35   #204
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Re: The EU wants its own military.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wu_trax
Fantastic. Some good news at last.

However, all I can see that this shows is that I was right: European countries have enough influence on their own without needing a European foreign minister.
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Unread 21 Oct 2003, 15:06   #205
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Re: The EU wants its own military.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Proteus
Fantastic. Some good news at last.

However, all I can see that this shows is that I was right: European countries have enough influence on their own without needing a European foreign minister.
if we work together we can archive something, if we dont we wont. so why not fix the whole idea and work together all the time?
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Unread 21 Oct 2003, 15:38   #206
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Re: The EU wants its own military.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wu_trax
if we work together we can archive something, if we dont we wont. so why not fix the whole idea and work together all the time?
Because sometimes we want to try to solve it in different ways.

Big countries don't make fewer mistakes.

P.S. The word you want is "achieve". "Archive" means something completely different.
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He was crowned in York Cathedral as 'Expert in the West' by Pope Urban III in 1186.
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Unread 21 Oct 2003, 15:45   #207
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Re: The EU wants its own military.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Proteus
Because sometimes we want to try to solve it in different ways.

Big countries don't make fewer mistakes.
but its very likely that these countries discussed about what to do on iran before they started doing something. this makes it more likely that they discover mistakes before they make them. after that they combine their influence and achive their goals.

Quote:
P.S. The word you want is "achieve". "Archive" means something completely different.
thanks, my english becomes worse every day


PS not that i agree with what they have done, the important point is that they worked together for it. personally i dont care if iran has nukes or not.
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Unread 21 Oct 2003, 15:47   #208
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Re: The EU wants its own military.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wu_trax
but its very likely that these countries discussed about what to do on iran before they started doing something. this makes it more likely that they discover mistakes before they make them. after that they combine their influence and achive their goals.
I have absolutely no problem with co-operation between nations.

What I don't like is having a spokesman for a group of nations who can say things on behalf of all of them that they may all not agree on.
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Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
He was crowned in York Cathedral as 'Expert in the West' by Pope Urban III in 1186.
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Unread 21 Oct 2003, 15:51   #209
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Re: The EU wants its own military.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Proteus
I have absolutely no problem with co-operation between nations.

What I don't like is having a spokesman for a group of nations who can say things on behalf of all of them that they may all not agree on.
why not?
its not like all members will be forced to accept the opinion of a european foreign affairs minister. they will try to find a compromise and then the european foreign affairs minister will represent it (Fischer, hopefully ). thats all.
but they wont get started with anything before 2010 anyway, so i wouldnt worry too much about this yet.
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Unread 21 Oct 2003, 15:56   #210
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Re: The EU wants its own military.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wu_trax
why not?
its not like all members will be forced to accept the opinion of a european foreign affairs minister. they will try to find a compromise and then the european foreign affairs minister will represent it (Fischer, hopefully ). thats all.
but they wont get started with anything before 2010 anyway, so i wouldnt worry too much about this yet.
If the EU foreign minister said something that the UK disagreed with, there is a good chance we'd say that we disagreed.

So you'd have the EU foreign minister saying "the whole EU thinks X" and the British foreign secretary saying "actually, we think Y".

The EU would just look silly. Surely that's not what you want?
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Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
He was crowned in York Cathedral as 'Expert in the West' by Pope Urban III in 1186.
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Unread 21 Oct 2003, 16:31   #211
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Re: The EU wants its own military.

Correct me if I am wrong Proteus, but surely the British Foreign Minister doesn't speak for all of Britain? Surely you don't agree with everything he says. Does it make him look stupid just because you disagree with him, and maybe say so? Nope.
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Unread 21 Oct 2003, 16:38   #212
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Exclamation Re: The EU wants its own military.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Proteus
If the EU foreign minister said something that the UK disagreed with, there is a good chance we'd say that we disagreed.

So you'd have the EU foreign minister saying "the whole EU thinks X" and the British foreign secretary saying "actually, we think Y".

The EU would just look silly. Surely that's not what you want?
This is just the current process that states go through. Existing states have devolved bodies, populations, and the like which will not agree with every foreign policy initative.

No that I see any problem, since member governments are free to speak out on any area of EU policy, and frequently do. This has not lead to a collapse in EU policy effectiveness.
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Unread 21 Oct 2003, 16:49   #213
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Re: The EU wants its own military.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
This is just the current process that states go through. Existing states have devolved bodies, populations, and the like which will not agree with every foreign policy initative.
But they aren't sovereign nations with separate foreign ministers.

You don't get the foreign minister of France saying something to Tony Blair and the mayor of Paris bursting in and saying "Hey! Paris disagrees with this!".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
No that I see any problem, since member governments are free to speak out on any area of EU policy, and frequently do. This has not lead to a collapse in EU policy effectiveness.
But that is internal policy, not foreign policy.

It would undermine the EU foreign minister's influence dramatically if the foreign minister of a major European power was contradicting what he says when he claims to represent all of the EU.

Not that I mind his influence being reduced, but it would make the EU look rather silly.
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Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
He was crowned in York Cathedral as 'Expert in the West' by Pope Urban III in 1186.
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Unread 21 Oct 2003, 16:53   #214
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Exclamation Re: The EU wants its own military.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Proteus
But they aren't sovereign nations with separate foreign ministers.
Errr, if you give The EU control over aspects such as foreign policy, then the foreign minister is practically going to be redundant anyway, or at least have their remit curtailed significantly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Proteus
But that is internal policy, not foreign policy.
I hoenstly don't see the difference. It's still policy. The fundamental premise is totally idenitical; that someone speaking out against a policy would totally undermine it. As I've said, people speaking out on EU policies is what goes on at the moment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Proteus
It would undermine the EU foreign minister's influence dramatically if the foreign minister of a major European power was contradicting what he says when he claims to represent all of the EU.
Well, as I've already said, you already get this within existing states, organisations even. I don';t see democratic expression as something particularly alarming, tbh.

Last edited by Marilyn Manson; 21 Oct 2003 at 17:00.
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Unread 21 Oct 2003, 17:00   #215
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Re: The EU wants its own military.

If some MP speaks out against some policy you have in England, it hardly undermines the Government. No one can truthfully say that they speak for "everyone" as some people will always disagree. Its always "the majority".
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Unread 21 Oct 2003, 17:22   #216
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Re: The EU wants its own military.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Proteus
But they aren't sovereign nations with separate foreign ministers.

You don't get the foreign minister of France saying something to Tony Blair and the mayor of Paris bursting in and saying "Hey! Paris disagrees with this!".
thats an aspect of the EU that tries to make even people like you agree with it.

Quote:
But that is internal policy, not foreign policy.
policy within the eu is internal policy

Quote:
It would undermine the EU foreign minister's influence dramatically if the foreign minister of a major European power was contradicting what he says when he claims to represent all of the EU.

Not that I mind his influence being reduced, but it would make the EU look rather silly.
Thats why its important to find a consens on the important issues, something everyone can live with, to avoid such dumb delitantism (probably spelled wrong, but you get the idea ) like in case of iraq in the future.
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Unread 21 Oct 2003, 17:24   #217
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Re: The EU wants its own military.

an EU army eh? hmm well id personally go for a 4-4-2 formation to begin with, nice and traditional get everyone settled in before we start messing about.

Now Britain and Germany are the only ones that have the oompah to do battle in defence and offence, therefore i think that its best to put them both in midfield. The frogs are useless at everything but we have to play them else they'll throw a hissy fit so i say stick them on left midfield. Right midfield will be the italians, the germans have a history in keeping them inline and making them fight so i think the combination will be good. In defence we really need people who are good at mopping up and taking care of the peacekeeping after the british and germans have slaughtered all the armies, so i say the swedish and the dutch who everyone seems to like, the dutch are abit iffy after bosnia but ill give them a go. Left back will be spaniards and right back the polish. After all the main armies have left you need someone that has no colonial history to do the peace keeping role, so we'll stick the irish in goal. In the striker role you need cannon fodder who will act like recon divisions, so i say stick the norwegians and their uber leet special forces and the belgians up front.

To sum up

Code:
                    Norway              Belgium
France               Britain              Germany           Italy

Spain                 Holland            Sweden            Poland

                              Ireland
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