What is the problem with official tools?

[K0loth]

It would be best if a solution is found from the current problem that is in the best interests of everyone rather than a continued argument that gets no one anywhere.

Analysis of the problem

From what I can gather these are the true issues behind all the spin and flames:

PA HQ and others in the community want:

• An official tools site.
• One that is neutral from alliances to prevent abuse.
• A private data dump not available on other tool sites.

Pilkara and others in the community want:

• All tool sites to have access to the same data dump.

Concerns that are being expressed about the current way of providing public data dumps:

• Alliances have the potential to abuse information provided and received on community provided tool sites.

Concerns that are being expressed about the future private dump being provided to the official site only:

• Unfair competition that could lead to fewer hits on community provided sites. Therefore discouraging further development by the community that could lead to little innovation and less choice for the community in the longer term.
• Coders of the official tools have the potential to abuse there extra access to these private data dumps.

[K0loth]

Originally posted by Spinner
Here is a mad idea :

What if...we got all the tool-coders together to create the best superior tool site ever? Only one site to support, and with the source to be read by everyone so that nobody belives any alliance will gain anything special from it? And only 1 dump?

Am I being completely mad here?

Originally posted by Gayle29uk
Open source toolkit under the GPL? I'm sure that would appeal to many of the coders

[edit] Expanding this slightly...

Whether you start from MiT's source or fresh is a seperate arguent, as someone known to the Creators he'd probably be the logical choice for lead maintainer/coder. Get the source up on CVS and let the frenzy begin. That way anyone wanting to contribute a new feature or streamline an old one or whatever can do so, with a development forum on here for discussion it could work well, it works for thousands of other OSS projects the world over.

Obviously there has to be a leader though, someone who makes the final decisions on what does and doesn't go in. Their decision must be final otherwise it falls apart.[/edit]

Both interesting ideas here.
I'd like to comment and make suggestions on this that could help expand on this a little further.

Spinners idea sounds reasonable but I doubt people would be willing to co-operate on that level. Although this suggestion solves the concern of abuse it does not solve the concern of:

• Unfair competition that could lead to fewer hits on community provided sites. Therefore discouraging further development by the community that could lead to little innovation and less choice for the community in the longer term.

Gayle's idea of GPL is good but I don't think all the tools need to be merged as one single project with mit as a lead coder to make it work (if I interpreted this correctly).

Building on these ideas I have my own suggestions in how I believe making radical changes on how the data dump is provided can help address these concerns.

These are as follows:

• Perhaps add more data to the private data dump on top of GC/Minister positions and galaxy banners.
• Still develop a official tools site using the private data dump but make it open source under the GPL.
• Allow toolsites that wish to use the private data dump to sign up to certain rules on condition of using it (thus getting a user/pass acoount to access this dump):
  These can be that the toolsite must be open source under the GPL and does not abuse the information it displays or receives from its tool site. By using the private data dump perhaps the site can be entitled to display some kind of quality endorsed by PA quality logo etc...

This idea is probably too radical and requires a lot of work. Though its something to expand on that could help solve this problem.

[Heartless]

As already suggested, an open source toolkit would be best I think.

There would have to be someone responsible for it, but it would definetly be something useful.

you could be on to something there, I'll have it looked into

[Gayle29uk]

Originally posted by K0loth
<snip>

Gayle's idea of GPL is good but I don't think all the tools need to be merged as one single project with mit as a lead coder to make it work (if I interpreted this correctly).

I didn't necessarily mean to merge all the tools into one, although if the project worked well that would be the logical end result. Let me give an example, pilkara has been my tool of choice since the death of sandmans because I like the way it works. On the other hand, the Virus coder(s) (Lockhead?) know how to make a site look good (obviously it's useful as well but I think pilkara beats it there). Get them working together on a community project and we could end up with something that works as well as pilkara does (as a tool) and looks as good as the Virus tools. Add the rest of the PA coding community in there as well and you could end up with something fabulous.

These can be that the toolsite must be open source under the GPL and does not abuse the information it displays or receives from its tool site. By using the private data dump perhaps the site can be entitled to display some kind of quality endorsed by PA quality logo etc...[/list]
This idea is probably too radical and requires a lot of work. Though its something to expand on that could help solve this problem.

Obviously the GPL allows people to fork their own derivatives if they so choose, as you say though (I was overzealous in my snipping, sorry) access to the dump can be restricted to either one site or 'participating sites' as that's NOT covered by the GPL.

[Gayle29uk]

Almost forgot to mention, there's a greater possibility of bugs in things like pilkara's news scan parsing being reported if it's a common project.

[Mit]

http://pirate.planetarion.com/showth...hreadid=159635 <-- READ

[Cothaniel]

• Before we had no neutral stat sites, and no stat page with GC/Ministers.
  
• Now an official page will have both.

Is the glass half-full or half-empty?



c.

[Gayle29uk]

Originally posted by Mit
http://pirate.planetarion.com/showth...hreadid=159635 <-- READ

Read. I still like the open source idea though

[Sir Mordred]

Originally posted by kaos
Virus ... i don't even know how made the virus tools and i never saw anyone here in the forums saying that it was his tools.

you really should pay some attention - there even were a few thread about our toolset

and now... eat my sig

[kaos]

Originally posted by Sir Mordred
you really should pay some attention - there even were a few thread about our toolset

and now... eat my sig

i know there were some threads, but i usually don't read much of the forums and i actually never heard your name before

Hmm, very strange, the _only_ tools which are good (not counting mit here, as his tools were not really good last round) are made by germans :eek:

[dsd]

Originally posted by kaos
Virus ... i don't even know how made the virus tools and i never saw anyone here in the forums saying that it was his tools.

hi

i dont come to these forums much, but i made virus tools
i dont think we properly announced the release here.
im known as Zero on irc

as for why im not complaining about this situation, its because i dont really mind.

i made the page because members of virus asked for it, and it was quite enjoyable to create.

i might have more of a say, if i had the time to seriously develop the page. im bogged down with other projects at the moment. i will maintain virus tools and hopefully develop it further if i can find the time.

also- im not german (im english)
Mordred is the host of the page, as well as other servers for virus. he has also helped me out a few times with the page.

zero