PA giving "official" tools private dumps.

[Carlyy]

Originally posted by Mit
Its only minister info and galaxy banners. i do NO processing on this data other than displaying it. As for saying i shouldn't play the game... u can go take a long walk off a short pier i have played since round 3, and there is no way now i've worked hard for this game i'm 'giving it up' just so i can develop a tools site that i wouldn't be able to use. That is just obserd.

You put youself in the position you're in now, not me.

It is fundamentally wrong that a *player* (i.e. you) should get more information, higher levels of access, or additional data than other players (i.e. the rest of us mugs).

If you want to play, do so from the same level playing field as everyone else.

If you want the power and prestige and responsibility of being part of the development team, then don't play.

You want your cake and eat it.

[kaos]

Originally posted by Mit
Its only minister info and galaxy banners. i do NO processing on this data other than displaying it. As for saying i shouldn't play the game... u can go take a long walk off a short pier i have played since round 3, and there is no way now i've worked hard for this game i'm 'giving it up' just so i can develop a tools site that i wouldn't be able to use. That is just obserd.

If this info is not dangerous (you kinda just said yourself) why is it not public then ?

[Mit]

Originally posted by kaos
If this info is not dangerous (you kinda just said yourself) why is it not public then ?

its not up to me why the 'extra' info is kept for the official tools - that is NOT my choice, that is the choice of the creators and those that sorted it out BEFORE me. I'm doing as i'm instructed, i'm using the data i have been given access to.

Now, i bet if kaos/stress/mist/lockhead/or anyone else thats contacted me were doing the 'official' tools and in my position, they'd be doing the same! i.e. getting fed up with all this crap and wondering why others couldn't just live with the desicions that were made.

[Carlyy]

The word "cronyism" springs to mind...

[Mit]

Originally posted by Carlyy
You put youself in the position you're in now, not me.

It is fundamentally wrong that a *player* (i.e. you) should get more information, higher levels of access, or additional data than other players (i.e. the rest of us mugs).

If you want to play, do so from the same level playing field as everyone else.

If you want the power and prestige and responsibility of being part of the development team, then don't play.

You want your cake and eat it.

i was contact by Zeus with regards to doing the official tools - as for higher levels of access / data etc - i have extra dumps to the others, that is all. I am playing on a level playing field - EVERYONE has access to teh data on my tools if they so want to look at them (that doesn't mean u can set up bots to rip through the pages as was tested the other night).

As for being on teh 'development team' - i'm doing this for myself as a project cos i enjoy coding more than anything else, and sometimes really wonder why i bother with u lots of moaning biatches around! Power - i have gained nothing other than a load of agro from doing these tools.

[Carlyy]

Originally posted by Mit
I'm doing as i'm instructed,

The easy excuse of anyone who wants to abjugate responsibility for their own actions. Next you'll tell us you had a deprived childhood.

Think for yourself. Take responsibility for your own actions and decisions.

[Mit]

Originally posted by Carlyy
The word "cronyism" springs to mind...

For those that don't know

cro·ny·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (krn-zm)
Favoritism shown to old friends without regard for their qualifications, as in political appointments to office.

heh, i wouldn't exactly have called Zeus an 'old friend' at the time he asked me - as for what ur saying Sandman was offered and refused. I don't know why Zeus came to me, but he did.

Originally posted by Carlyy

said the SS guard as he marched the Jews to the "showers".

With regards to using the 'extra' dumps.

[Telest]

Originally posted by Carlyy
It is fundamentally wrong that a *player* (i.e. you) should get more information, higher levels of access, or additional data than other players (i.e. the rest of us mugs).

As far as I see, he gets whatsoever no information that isn't publicly available.

Hey! I have an idea: how about we stop beta testers from playing the actual rounds, they get unfair advantage from having played the beta. Oh wait... that would probably make the beta tests work out none-too-well as nobody who knows about the game wouldn't test.

[Carlyy]

Argue the toss anyway you like Mit. You cannot escape the patently obvious.

Either you play, and do so on an equal basis to every other player.

Or you get access to data and information that players don't get access to.

You cannot mix the two and claim its ok, coz its so obviously not.

Easy solution - give everyone access to the same files you do.

[Mushroom]

Originally posted by Carlyy
Argue the toss anyway you like Mit. You cannot escape the patently obvious.

Either you play, and do so on an equal basis to every other player.

Or you get access to data and information that players don't get access to.

You cannot mix the two and claim its ok, coz its so obviously not.

Easy solution - give everyone access to the same files you do.

Look, he's quite clearly just told you that he doesn't have a say in whether others get the information or not, so it's not really his fault. If you think he should stop playing because a creator has decided not to release a dump, i think that's a bit unfair really.

[Mit]

Originally posted by Carlyy
Argue the toss anyway you like Mit. You cannot escape the patently obvious.

Either you play, and do so on an equal basis to every other player.

Or you get access to data and information that players don't get access to.

You cannot mix the two and claim its ok, coz its so obviously not.

Easy solution - give everyone access to the same files you do.

u can go away why would i spent my time doing something for a game if i then can't use it cos i can't play due to making the game. Do the creators not play just cos they make the game and have all the 'admin' tools they need. NO.

[Telest]

I think it's time for me to stop reading this threat, because whenever I think of what to write all my arguments seem to tend towards: "Hey, we've posted the same points in ten different ways now. How about if you don't like it YOU JUST DON'T play the game."

Face it, whatever you post, you aren't going to win the argument, whatever your agument is.

[Carlyy]

Originally posted by Mit
u can go away why would i spent my time doing something for a game if i then can't use it cos i can't play due to making the game. Do the creators not play just cos they make the game and have all the 'admin' tools they need. NO.

Hey thats fine. My point isn't about the fact that you've been given access to data other players haven't. My point is, YOU try to argue a morally justified case for it, which is utter rubbish.

You want to keep access to data other players don't get, and you want to play the game as well. Fine. Just don't come here trying to argue you're doing nothing wrong, coz you are. Have the guts to admit it.

[Telest]

Originally posted by Carlyy
Hey thats fine. My point isn't about the fact that you've been given access to data other players haven't. My point is, YOU try to argue a morally justified case for it, which is utter rubbish.

You want to keep access to data other players don't get, and you want to play the game as well. Fine. Just don't come here trying to argue you're doing nothing wrong, coz you are. Have the guts to admit it.

I do not see anything wrong with this particular situation, therefore the case must be arguable.

[Carlyy]

Originally posted by Telest
I do not see anything wrong with this particular situation, therefore the case must be arguable.

Go look up "insider trading" on a search engine for a reasonably accurate analogy.

[Telest]

Originally posted by Carlyy
Go look up "insider trading" on a search engine for a reasonably accurate analogy.

That's besides the point. I was merely arguing the argueability of the case. I feel the case is arguable, MiT feels the case is arguable, who are you to say that you are right and that the case is not arguable?

[Carlyy]

Originally posted by Telest
That's besides the point. I was merely arguing the argueability of the case. I feel the case is arguable, MiT feels the case is arguable, who are you to say that you are right and that the case is not arguable?

Hmm.... let me see.....

After much cogitation I conclude that you sir are taking the proverbial and therefore decline to follow your line of logic. Thanks anyway.

[Mushroom]

Originally posted by Carlyy
You want to keep access to data other players don't get, and you want to play the game as well. Fine. Just don't come here trying to argue you're doing nothing wrong, coz you are. Have the guts to admit it.

He is not recieving the information for personal use, the tools are recieving the information to give to whoever uses them, so really the argument that he is getting special privilages is void, because the information is public via the tools. The argument is that it is only his tools that are getting the extended info.

[Carlyy]

Originally posted by Mushroom
He is not recieving the information for personal use, the tools are recieving the information to give to whoever uses them, so really the argument that he is getting special privilages is void, because the information is public via the tools. The argument is that it is only his tools that are getting the extended info.

Same difference.

[Mushroom]

Originally posted by Carlyy
Same difference.

How is it?
The info is still public.

[kaos]

Originally posted by Mit
its not up to me why the 'extra' info is kept for the official tools - that is NOT my choice, that is the choice of the creators and those that sorted it out BEFORE me. I'm doing as i'm instructed, i'm using the data i have been given access to.

Now, i bet if kaos/stress/mist/lockhead/or anyone else thats contacted me were doing the 'official' tools and in my position, they'd be doing the same! i.e. getting fed up with all this crap and wondering why others couldn't just live with the desicions that were made.

1. Well, why are you relating everything to yourself ?
We are not talking about your but about the official tools here. you are not the point of the discussion ...

oh,btw when did i contact you about the dumps ? (or anything else ?) The only time we spoke you contacted me because you had problems with your dumper ... nothing more nothing less ...

[Mushroom]

Originally posted by kaos
1. Well, why are you relating everything to yourself ?
We are not talking about your but about the official tools here. you are not the point of the discussion ...

He was relating that to himself because if you read above it, Carlyy was having a go at him, so it was a sort of sub-discussion.

[Telest]

Originally posted by Carlyy
Hmm.... let me see.....

After much cogitation I conclude that you sir are taking the proverbial and therefore decline to follow your line of logic. Thanks anyway.

Fine, let me try to show me the (brilliant) steps of reasoning.

1) In my opinion MiT is not receiving an unfair advantage nor is he doing anything morally wrong.

2) Hence there seems to be at least one person who agrees with his point of view.

3) Therefore the case can be argued.

Starting from this, to prove that the case cannot be argued, you would need to break the chain of reasoning above at any point.

{EDIT}

I think I should relax #1 a bit:

1) In my opinion it might be that MiT is not receiving an unfair advantage nor is he doing anything morally wrong.

[Woodeh]

I spent last round working on the official tools, for several reasons they never actually ran.

1. Lack of time.
2. Lack of commitment.
3. Mits Being Better and actually running.
4. Exams.

I had this debate with several members of PA team. Why is it PA team only gets the botfiles, why not everyone else. From all these conversations I think I can offer some form of answer.

I'm sure you'll agree that the one thing that had made planetarion 'less enjoyable' to play was the excess of Powerblocks being relevant. Far from the days of Round 3 when me & a bunch of then unknown friends (Kloopy, Noctu & other friends from school) started to play. Back then there was very little in the way of tools (i won't name the site because its pants IMHO). The only alliances with sites were the big roman one and the other 'Annoyed one'. They were, along with a few others the only ones with enough geeks to produce an external site. For their alliance. This allowed them to be far more organised than others and therefore better in game. Everyone knew who they were, everyone dreaded getting attacked by them.

The main reason for this was they were far more organised. Not until Kloopys alliance hosting which evolved from a (sure he'll agree with me on this one) dodgy Perl site which bounced around many free webhosts between Round 4 & the integrated AH being launched did many alliances have a decent site.

Alliance Hosting coming in then truly leveled the playing field. There were something like 15,000 players and 1,500+ alliances on AH at its peak (correct me if i'm wrong).

So whats this got to do with botfiles I hear you scream if you haven't stopped reading. I noticed the first person to whinge about this issue was the guy from Pilkara, the Elysium tools. One of the larger alliances over PAs time. They can even afford a domain name. Extra data would help them open up the gap even more over the smaller alliances. In my opinion smaller alliances should be given the advantage, this means giving the smaller alliances access to the stats. Therefore Mits tools would allow everyone to access the same information leveling the playing field for all and making the game more playable and less like a foregone conclusion one of 2 or 3 alliances will muller everyone.

Thanks For Reading.

Woody.

[Norseman]

Originally posted by Woodeh



Therefore Mits tools would allow everyone to access the same information leveling the playing field for all and making the game more playable and less like a foregone conclusion one of 2 or 3 alliances will muller everyone.

Thanks For Reading.

Woody.

excuse my stupidity..but, do you honestly believe that the only reason why elysium has bothered to make pilkara public is to gather information from the enemies?

I mean, could it actually be that elysium by providing a tool like pilkara infact has the very same goal as what you just described - helping the community - ?

[K0loth]

Originally posted by Woodeh
I noticed the first person to whinge about this issue was the guy from Pilkara, the Elysium tools. One of the larger alliances over PAs time. They can even afford a domain name. Extra data would help them open up the gap even more over the smaller alliances. In my opinion smaller alliances should be given the advantage, this means giving the smaller alliances access to the stats. Therefore Mits tools would allow everyone to access the same information leveling the playing field for all and making the game more playable and less like a foregone conclusion one of 2 or 3 alliances will muller everyone.

Originally posted by [Racer] (Pilkara Owner)
Actually this thread was made to point out that only the "official" gets the best dump with the most info.

[kaos]

Originally posted by Woodeh
I spent last round working on the official tools, for several reasons they never actually ran.

1. Lack of time.
2. Lack of commitment.
3. Mits Being Better and actually running.
4. Exams.

I had this debate with several members of PA team. Why is it PA team only gets the botfiles, why not everyone else. From all these conversations I think I can offer some form of answer.

I'm sure you'll agree that the one thing that had made planetarion 'less enjoyable' to play was the excess of Powerblocks being relevant. Far from the days of Round 3 when me & a bunch of then unknown friends (Kloopy, Noctu & other friends from school) started to play. Back then there was very little in the way of tools (i won't name the site because its pants IMHO). The only alliances with sites were the big roman one and the other 'Annoyed one'. They were, along with a few others the only ones with enough geeks to produce an external site. For their alliance. This allowed them to be far more organised than others and therefore better in game. Everyone knew who they were, everyone dreaded getting attacked by them.

The main reason for this was they were far more organised. Not until Kloopys alliance hosting which evolved from a (sure he'll agree with me on this one) dodgy Perl site which bounced around many free webhosts between Round 4 & the integrated AH being launched did many alliances have a decent site.

Alliance Hosting coming in then truly leveled the playing field. There were something like 15,000 players and 1,500+ alliances on AH at its peak (correct me if i'm wrong).

So whats this got to do with botfiles I hear you scream if you haven't stopped reading. I noticed the first person to whinge about this issue was the guy from Pilkara, the Elysium tools. One of the larger alliances over PAs time. They can even afford a domain name. Extra data would help them open up the gap even more over the smaller alliances. In my opinion smaller alliances should be given the advantage, this means giving the smaller alliances access to the stats. Therefore Mits tools would allow everyone to access the same information leveling the playing field for all and making the game more playable and less like a foregone conclusion one of 2 or 3 alliances will muller everyone.

Thanks For Reading.

Woody.

Err, what ?
You say that only 'the one' running the tools would have a profit of it. But actually it would only be more work for me. But I want to provide the community with the best i can, so i want 'my tools' to have the stuff where the players (and therefore ALL alliances) would profit the most ... and tbh _everyone_ can afford a hosting like pilkara.
Telling me that alliances don't profit, but even got disadvantages is absurd ... how would they get disadvantages from public tools ? explain that to me pls.

[Mit]

Originally posted by kaos
tbh _everyone_ can afford a hosting like pilkara.

heh, i don't know about the specs of the servers, but i doubt that a bit.

a domain, a webserver / space and 2 DNS servers. Thats just a little out of everyones budget. I know its definately out of mine.

the creators don't have to give you any dumps at all.

they could just provide them to mit for the official Pa tools.. which are under and official pa url and an official pa supported server(or will be)

if they remove the dumps.. u have no choice but to use mits tools.

so be happy they have given the ones already available.

[Norseman]

Originally posted by Karmulian
the creators don't have to give you any dumps at all.

they could just provide them to mit for the official Pa tools.. which are under and official pa url and an official pa supported server(or will be)

if they remove the dumps.. u have no choice but to use mits tools.

so be happy they have given the ones already available.

kinda like how we should be happy, not to say deeply grateful for the great honour it is to play or indeed pay for this game?

[Mit]

Well said...

[Heartless]

Originally posted by Norseman
kinda like how we should be happy, not to say deeply grateful for the great honour it is to play or indeed pay for this game?

I don't think that Karmulian wanted to say that you should be "deeply grateful for the great honour it is to play or indeed pay".

I think it is more that PA is providing dump files for the public, which is something a lot of other games do not.

Whatever, it looks like we have the typical "offer them a finger and they want to take your hand" situation now.

[Mit]

Be greatful for what u have!

[Norseman]

Originally posted by Heartless

I think it is more that PA is providing dump files for the public, which is something a lot of other games do not.

Its a typical win-win situation which makes the product Planetarion better. Why on earth sholdnt they provide the dumps?

I don't think that Karmulian wanted to say that you should be "deeply grateful for the great honour it is to play or indeed pay".[/b]

What ever he meant to say, its surely not the way to talk to customers. And at the bottom of the line, that was exactly what he said

[Norseman]

Originally posted by Mit
Be greatful for what u have!

Planetarion should indeed be greateful for each and every customer willing to pay for this ****ed up game

[Heartless]

Originally posted by Norseman
Its a typical win-win situation which makes the product Planetarion better. Why on earth sholdnt they provide the dumps?

Bandwith and Traffic costs?

[Tactitus]

Originally posted by Karmulian
the creators don't have to give you any dumps at all.

they could just provide them to mit for the official Pa tools.. which are under and official pa url and an official pa supported server(or will be)

if they remove the dumps.. u have no choice but to use mits tools.

No, they could go back to collecting them off the galaxy pages--which is what they used to do before the dumps were provided.

so be happy they have given the ones already available.

Don't be silly. PA didn't make the dumps available simply to be courteous; they did it to reduce the load on the servers caused by various alliances extracting the information the "hard way."

[Mit]

Originally posted by Tactitus
No, they could go back to collecting them off the galaxy pages--which is what they used to do before the dumps were provided.

i'd like to see u do that without a bot - as bot usage is banned in the T&C.

[Tactitus]

Originally posted by Mit
i'd like to see u do that without a bot - as bot usage is banned in the T&C.

Heh. Bot usage was banned back when folks were parsing gal pages too. :/

[Stress]

This thread whent waaaay out of annything that was its inntention thogh

The main issue was., that there are tool sites, that have ben worked on for ages. That have evalved, ower time. And prooven temselves good and poppular.

If infact the only diffrence on the privare dumps are ministers and Gal banners. there is no innfo in them that can be abused, and not be picked upp from in game. The only thing they would alow. Was to have a lot of fun with some of the rankings in the Minister area. And allso make a more accurate RAting of indevidual players. As the revard for min postions could be deducted etc....


@ Mit, it was newer intended against u as a person. It was a reaction to Piklara trying to access those dumps for a long time.
And trust me it gets frustrating after rounds and rounds and rounds. When Chreators, do not even bother to reply to the mails sent to them

[kaos]

Originally posted by Stress
This thread whent waaaay out of annything that was its inntention thogh

The main issue was., that there are tool sites, that have ben worked on for ages. That have evalved, ower time. And prooven temselves good and poppular.

If infact the only diffrence on the privare dumps are ministers and Gal banners. there is no innfo in them that can be abused, and not be picked upp from in game. The only thing they would alow. Was to have a lot of fun with some of the rankings in the Minister area. And allso make a more accurate RAting of indevidual players. As the revard for min postions could be deducted etc....


@ Mit, it was newer intended against u as a person. It was a reaction to Piklara trying to access those dumps for a long time.
And trust me it gets frustrating after rounds and rounds and rounds. When Chreators, do not even bother to reply to the mails sent to them

Well said m8

Originally posted by Mit
heh, i don't know about the specs of the servers, but i doubt that a bit.

a domain, a webserver / space and 2 DNS servers. Thats just a little out of everyones budget. I know its definately out of mine.

oh well, it only needs a shared hosting ... and something which fits the specs of pilkara is from ~8 - 20 Euros here in Germany per Month and tbh thats something you should be _able_ to afford if you want to do such a thing

[Gayle29uk]

Originally posted by Stress
<snip>

If infact the only diffrence on the privare dumps are ministers and Gal banners.

<snip>

What's the big deal on either of those?

First off, avoiding gal banner spyware/server logs is one of the advantages of using pilkara etc, let alone the speed bonus not having them gives. Include the damn banners and it's right back to square one

To put it another way, this 'feature' guarantees I won't use the official tools, don't break the unofficial ones too.

Second, I really don't give a toss if my target is a minister/whatever. What's the fuss?

[kaos]

Originally posted by Gayle29uk
What's the big deal on either of those?

First off, avoiding gal banner spyware/server logs is one of the advantages of using pilkara etc, let alone the speed bonus not having them gives. Include the damn banners and it's right back to square one

To put it another way, this 'feature' guarantees I won't use the official tools, don't break the unofficial ones too.

Second, I really don't give a toss if my target is a minister/whatever. What's the fuss?

It was planned, that if I get the dump, that there will only be the ministers (i don't even _want_ the galpics ... but i thought that it is disabled by default, but ppl can enable it for themself)

[K0loth]

The ministers and galaxy banners could be just so people warm to the idea with little objection to the private dumps. Then the private could improve later on with total ship numbers of certain types etc...

There is no real point in having any of those details on your website,but if your gonna be a baby about it, leaching pa db´s aint very hard.

Leaching pa at all aint hard,heh.

[Mong]

Originally posted by Gayle29uk (In a P&D Thread)
But the only information needed from MITs site is the minister/gal banner data which can be updated once a day and still be regarded as current. The rest of the info is all legitimately avaiolable through the dump so why not get it from there?

Bingo! I don't see what the fuss is about! It's just ministers and banners. Big "woooo". The only reason PA have restricted this full dump to their official tools is because they want to give users a little incentive to use the PA tools (thus avoiding potential alliance spying)

Are people REALLY ready to believe that Ely would never have something built in that says "If one of our planets/gals is queried a lot, warn us" and various other things? At least with the official PA tools you know this won't happen. Not saying it DOES, justs saying it MIGHT.


* PA don't have to provide ANY dumps
* Mit's tools are OFFICIAL PA TOOLS made FOR PA


It's PA's dump, it's PA's tools. End of story. Sorry

M.

[Sakera]

Originally posted by Mong

Bingo! I don't see what the fuss is about! It's just ministers and banners. Big "woooo". The only reason PA have restricted this full dump to their official tools is because they want to give users a little incentive to use the PA tools (thus avoiding potential alliance spying)

"It's just, it's just." no it's not just. It's PLANETARION at it's best. Showing how they destroy the game piece bye piece ....

Originally posted by Mong

Are people REALLY ready to believe that Ely would never have something built in that says "If one of our planets/gals is queried a lot, warn us" and various other things? At least with the official PA tools you know this won't happen. Not saying it DOES, justs saying it MIGHT.

And mit might leak his scans to any un-named alliance. Not saying he DOES, justs saying he MIGHT. Of cource MiT will deny this in a later post but wouldn't that be exactly the same as I, Elysium HC, denies that Pilkara is used to any such thing that you suggest.

Originally posted by Mong

* PA don't have to provide ANY dumps

Naw they don't and I believe they want to remove the dumps, but realise that the dump are a part of helping the community live.

Originally posted by Mong

* Mit's tools are OFFICIAL PA TOOLS made FOR PA

And how did they become the official tools, by getting the best one for PA or the one who is best friend with current PA crew?

Originally posted by Mong

... moaning about not getting the full dump with the TINY benefits this entails.

Well this exact post was aimed at exactly these "tiny" (ut significant in it's own way) benefits, but has as well evolved into giving a view on how PA runs things generally.

[Sakera]

Originally posted by Sakera
Naw they don't and I believe they want to remove the dumps, but realise that the dump are a part of helping the community live.

can't believe I said I believe in PA.....

[Mong]

Oh sod it! To be honest it's the whining and the way the whole debate is conducted that is bothering me (although I deleted my rant, but Sakera found it!!!)

I actually don't care who gets what tbh. Level playing field = better competition to provide the best tool = win-win for users.

Nah, the thing that's bothering me is that people are really trying to (and succeeding) in upsetting Mit, who is a really nice guy, and is genuinely doing this simply because he wants to - he's not doing this to gain anything!

Sakera: I deleted that rant cos I felt **** after I wrote it, cos it was wrong to write it. It'd be nice if you could remove it to

M.

[Sakera]

Originally posted by Mong
I actually don't care who gets what tbh. Level playing field = better competition to provide the best tool = win-win for users.

Witch is what we all want, win-win.

Originally posted by Mong

Nah, the thing that's bothering me is that people are really trying to (and succeeding) in upsetting Mit, who is a really nice guy, and is genuinely doing this simply because he wants to - he's not doing this to gain anything!

The deal of this thread to start with wasn't to upset MiT, althought because his tools are of main topic it made him the victim easy. I think he doesn't take the thread itself as an attack at him, but some of the posts inside it might be directed more that way.