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Unread 8 Mar 2015, 20:13   #1
BloodyButcher
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Round 61 BB stats

They will be up as soon as M0 is done with his
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Unread 9 Mar 2015, 15:50   #2
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Re: Round 61 BB stats

Thanks for updating us. But after your propaganda (which was in bad taste) vs this past rounds stats I have no desire to look.
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Unread 9 Mar 2015, 17:12   #3
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Re: Round 61 BB stats

As always, I am in favour of more people making stats. Personal feelings towards the authors are irrelevant.
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Unread 9 Mar 2015, 17:48   #4
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Re: Round 61 BB stats

You are right tbh, naturally. I just dont like to see that sort of topic post on the forums
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Unread 9 Mar 2015, 18:29   #5
BloodyButcher
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Re: Round 61 BB stats

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Originally Posted by Krypton View Post
Thanks for updating us. But after your propaganda (which was in bad taste) vs this past rounds stats I have no desire to look.
Great.
You dont have to look.
This thread was just made so people would hurry up making up their mind on M0s set, as they will not be up on the beta for much longer.
And the discussion thread about R60 stats posround was just to warn of everyone ever using the stats again, and warning everyone of listening to Kaiba
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Unread 9 Mar 2015, 20:29   #6
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Re: Round 61 BB stats

Im going to repeat myself by saying that r60 stats were very good regardless of the whine. :P Just post the set you have done so far, you are wasting time by hiding it tbh.
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Unread 9 Mar 2015, 20:32   #7
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Re: Round 61 BB stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larppa View Post
Im going to repeat myself by saying that r60 stats were very good regardless of the whine. :P Just post the set you have done so far, you are wasting time by hiding it tbh.
Im waiting for Appocomaster to upload it to beta.
Its allready done, just gonna tweak some small bits
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Unread 9 Mar 2015, 20:33   #8
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Re: Round 61 BB stats

Mainly eff/res/armor/damage stuff
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Unread 9 Mar 2015, 23:04   #9
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Re: Round 61 BB stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larppa View Post
Im going to repeat myself by saying that r60 stats were very good regardless of the whine. :P Just post the set you have done so far, you are wasting time by hiding it tbh.
This is why I don't want to look at BB's stats, because I agree with you...along with the forum topic he made

There were at least 4 viable strategies, but he's just not acknowledging this as he's too short-sighted to do so. This also gives me very little hope for his stats, but we will wait and see
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Unread 9 Mar 2015, 23:38   #10
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Re: Round 61 BB stats

http://beta.planetarion.com/manual.p...n=860202377967

They are up now
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Unread 9 Mar 2015, 23:44   #11
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Re: Round 61 BB stats

3 pod xan ... no no NO!
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Unread 10 Mar 2015, 00:11   #12
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Re: Round 61 BB stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by [B5]Londo View Post
3 pod xan ... no no NO!
Well its a lot of "pros/cons" with a 2 pods vs a "3" pods set.
Lets just look at last rounds set.
Broadsword were too powerfull compared to other "heavy" ships, going a strat without having broadswords as a part of your ships choices meant that you would not be able to compete with other allies in terms of anti FR.
Now if more race/attack class strats have these "special" ships, the chance that one strat would stand out from another cus of one single ship in the stats.

More faking options for xans means that you will need more amps.
To decrease the advantage of faking multiple classes ive made the xan pods silly expensive and made sure that the xan BS pod cant fake much targets looking at its init.
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Unread 10 Mar 2015, 00:12   #13
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Re: Round 61 BB stats

4 races with fr pods, not tired of fr after last round BB?
They are also at the moment the most obvious alliance strategy; not often you can get init advantage on everything through a team without having to rely on emp!
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Unread 10 Mar 2015, 00:15   #14
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Re: Round 61 BB stats

After looking at this set briefly, they seem quite attack based?
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Unread 10 Mar 2015, 00:20   #15
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Re: Round 61 BB stats

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
To decrease the advantage of faking multiple classes ive made the xan pods silly expensive and made sure that the xan BS pod cant fake much targets looking at its init.
On the subject of xan pods it looks from calcs like you need to lower their emp res a little, at the moment pods are left unfrozen when all their companion ships are empd. Always really annoying for emp players to emp everything only for pods to still get their catch.
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Unread 10 Mar 2015, 00:30   #16
BloodyButcher
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Re: Round 61 BB stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by booji View Post
4 races with fr pods, not tired of fr after last round BB?
They are also at the moment the most obvious alliance strategy; not often you can get init advantage on everything through a team without having to rely on emp!
Its a good strategy indeed, thats the purpose with it.
But with so many small tags next round, perhaps a race strat based around CO would be good for them?
And BS is quite powerfull too.
ill quote from the last time these stats were being commented on.

IsildurX: "I haven't even looked at the effs, but cath co would be popular with these stats."
------------------
Plaguuu: "You couldn't use ac dc more close to what we commonly have?

Just looked at them briefly and spotted the terran beast called r4pecruiser which wars frde, team it up with scorpion for unstoppable force.

Then I looked one further down and think would I even bother going offclass pods and getting a teamup when I can pwn everything with my dreaded dragonoughts.

But there is only 4 races with Fr pods so doubt they will have any other uses than dominating attacks "
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Kaiba: Random sh*t about Xan FI being too good
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Unread 10 Mar 2015, 00:31   #17
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Re: Round 61 BB stats

init advantage on everything if all 4 races are included is okey i suppose, it means that teaming up will pay off
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Unread 10 Mar 2015, 00:43   #18
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Re: Round 61 BB stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clouds View Post
After looking at this set briefly, they seem quite attack based?
Yeah, certainly a ETD/CAT CO setup will be very attack based.
Other strats, im not sure, atleast not the FR choice?
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Unread 10 Mar 2015, 00:48   #19
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Re: Round 61 BB stats

I looked at the set before last round, really couldn't catch the idea behind them back then, after looking at them again, there's still no idea.

Few simple issues:
- FR is too obvious choice, way too obvious.
- CO is the second choice, just because it's easier and requires less leading (and/or own work).
- CR outran by BS 2-4 and CR having no killships in attack fleets.
- BS stopped by FRDE just because there will be a lot more of those again. (even if it most likely would start good).
- FI... only xan and value spread to 3 ships, killed easily by the CO/FR/DE there will be plenty and most of them hitting FI T1.

Otherwise, I like how you made ETD so tempting and are trying to promote faking with the pod amounts. And yes, 3 pod xan makes very little sense, especially when it adds 0 to the teamup and doesn't need the BS for def purposes either (waste of research to go hulls 3 with those stats).
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Unread 10 Mar 2015, 00:52   #20
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Re: Round 61 BB stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoXiouS View Post
Otherwise, I like how you made ETD so tempting and are trying to promote faking with the pod amounts. And yes, 3 pod xan makes very little sense, especially when it adds 0 to the teamup and doesn't need the BS for def purposes either (waste of research to go hulls 3 with those stats).
Well it makes sense if you want the Tzen for defence for BS strats?
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Unread 10 Mar 2015, 00:53   #21
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Re: Round 61 BB stats

Just a quick glance.

I do not understand why you'd give Xan (the most attack efficient race) 3 pod classes with their faking abilities. Gives any Xan player such a huge advantage...

On top of this, you then choose to give Terran and Zikonian, the two notoriously high init races (and therefore, harder to land solo without losses) two pod classes.

Reasons?
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Unread 10 Mar 2015, 01:08   #22
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Re: Round 61 BB stats

I think NoXiouS pointed it out why there is not such a big problem having 3 xan pods.
What he says its "pretty useless" is more or less correct
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Unread 10 Mar 2015, 01:08   #23
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Re: Round 61 BB stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Well it makes sense if you want the Tzen for defence for BS strats?
And how would Hulls 3 make sense even then, when Tzen is FR (hulls 2) and instead of BS shoots FI (at least on this refresh just before this post)? And as CR gets involuntarily loved by BS, FRDE makes a lot more viable def against BS.

Also, after a second look, CO really doesn't make that much sense either, unless you really mass that and forget everything else (which may work for some tags).

Edit: The Xan BS pods only promote escorts in this case (easiest to fake with) and simply the easiest to stay low on value too for the biggest XP gains. Therefore there is a problem, especially when there are battlegroups that will abuse it as much as they can (and most likely will be the only ones with those pods).
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Unread 10 Mar 2015, 03:26   #24
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Re: Round 61 BB stats

Comparing R60 stats vs my stats in the way its even possibole:

Terran:
R60 Terran A/C/DC vs My AC/DC:
487 A/C average vs 489 A/C average
411 D/C average vs 449 D/C average
-----
Xan:
R60 Xan AC/DC vs My AC/DC
361 A/C average vs 370 A/C average
437 D/C average vs 444 D/C average
-----
Cathaar EMP Effs(roiding class):
Beetle Eff R60 vs my:
T1 158%, T2 119% vs T1 157%, T2 134%
-----
Viper Eff R60 vs my:
T1 158% vs T1 169%, T2 128%
-----
CR FR/DE shooter Eff R60 vs my:
T1 156%, T2 117% vs T1 203% T2 154%
-----
CR BS shooter Eff R60 vs my:
T1 156% vs 181%


...

Comments on this is welcome
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Unread 10 Mar 2015, 03:59   #25
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Re: Round 61 BB stats

First thought is "what the hell is BB smoking?"

I'll have a "proper" look at them in the morning and comment further.

Also, x2 what mz said as usual. Thanks for at least putting something together BB.
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Unread 10 Mar 2015, 06:46   #26
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Re: Round 61 BB stats

Fi:5
Co:6
Fr:11
De:8
Cr:5
Bs:7
That is a HUGE disparity of ship in the universe. This is not counting Pods or sk's. If you don't think everyone is going to use Fr you are out of your mind, and as it was pointed out the Fr teamup is just about unstoppable so why wouldnt everyone just use Fr?

Unless you actually take some of the fr out, or put in other ships from other classes that provide other options for dealing with Fr its going to be a Fr round.
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Unread 10 Mar 2015, 07:05   #27
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Re: Round 61 BB stats

I find it quite amusing that in their current setup, these stats are incredibly similar to last round's (with its flaws even exacerbated, imo), stats which were proclaimed as 'Worst Stats Ever' by BB.
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Unread 10 Mar 2015, 07:29   #28
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Re: Round 61 BB stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
I find it quite amusing that in their current setup, these stats are incredibly similar to last round's (with its flaws even exacerbated, imo), stats which were proclaimed as 'Worst Stats Ever' by BB.
In wich way are they similar?
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Unread 10 Mar 2015, 07:34   #29
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Re: Round 61 BB stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
Fi:5
Co:6
Fr:11
De:8
Cr:5
Bs:7
That is a HUGE disparity of ship in the universe. This is not counting Pods or sk's. If you don't think everyone is going to use Fr you are out of your mind, and as it was pointed out the Fr teamup is just about unstoppable so why wouldnt everyone just use Fr?

Unless you actually take some of the fr out, or put in other ships from other classes that provide other options for dealing with Fr its going to be a Fr round.
The fact that FR i spread over 4(!) races means that it will be holes in any FR strat.
Better race spread, more avaible targets.
Adding that up with the changes in ship cost, i think its balanced
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Unread 10 Mar 2015, 07:45   #30
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Re: Round 61 BB stats

The more i look at it Zik CR cant exist. It's out init by every Bs flee, and its even out Stolen by Cutters. Even if they have stupid high A/C D/C if they cant attack whats the point.
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Unread 10 Mar 2015, 07:45   #31
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Re: Round 61 BB stats

http://beta.planetarion.com/history/...?id=4&round=51
as reference.
App/TGV was FR
ODDR/Spore/MegaRock was CO
FAnG CR/BS
CT had DE + some other mixes
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Unread 10 Mar 2015, 07:47   #32
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Re: Round 61 BB stats

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Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
The more i look at it Zik CR cant exist. It's out init by every Bs flee, and its even out Stolen by Cutters. Even if they have stupid high A/C D/C if they cant attack whats the point.
Cat CR is suppose to make up for that in CAT/ZIK teamups
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Unread 10 Mar 2015, 08:56   #33
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Re: Round 61 BB stats

The worst stats ever
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Unread 10 Mar 2015, 09:35   #34
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Re: Round 61 BB stats

Ok, I've looked in more depth.

With ETD, Ter and Xan sharing at least two pod classes (Zik also having fr) and Cat/Zik not really having many options but Co (which Zik dont even start with pods for), these stats are really not what I expect.

Surely, you want to be able to have different attack options for each of the six roiding pod classes, not just have everyone mass one or two? Not where, the majority of races match thus leaving two races completely pointless.

As I see it, there is zero point playing as cat or zik with these stats. EMP on it's own is useless.

I literally cant see where you went with these. Must have been a good time though.
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Unread 10 Mar 2015, 10:10   #35
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Re: Round 61 BB stats

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Originally Posted by Krypton View Post
Ok, I've looked in more depth.

With ETD, Ter and Xan sharing at least two pod classes (Zik also having fr) and Cat/Zik not really having many options but Co (which Zik dont even start with pods for), these stats are really not what I expect.

Surely, you want to be able to have different attack options for each of the six roiding pod classes, not just have everyone mass one or two? Not where, the majority of races match thus leaving two races completely pointless.

As I see it, there is zero point playing as cat or zik with these stats. EMP on it's own is useless.

I literally cant see where you went with these. Must have been a good time though.
Did you look at the link i posted with the R51 stats?
And read the entire post on how i "remeber" the alliances strats being?

How can it be there is like almost 20/50 top50 planets being cath then?
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Unread 10 Mar 2015, 10:14   #36
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Re: Round 61 BB stats

Ofc these stats has been modified from the ones in R51.
No same-class targetting, and removing the CR pod from Ter, but i dont think that will play out much diffrent.
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Unread 10 Mar 2015, 11:22   #37
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Re: Round 61 BB stats

Haven't looked at these in-depth yet, but basing your stats on those of r51 is probably a bad idea. They were far too defensive.
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Unread 10 Mar 2015, 11:37   #38
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Re: Round 61 BB stats

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Haven't looked at these in-depth yet, but basing your stats on those of r51 is probably a bad idea. They were far too defensive.
Yeah, but i think i sorted out the major flaws with them being defensive by removing the fireing within same class?
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Unread 10 Mar 2015, 11:40   #39
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Re: Round 61 BB stats

The problem is the it is too easy to just spam Fr for all defense and cover 5 of the 6 meta classes. Which is fine because ultimately one class wont be played because the stats maker makes it trash. This round it will Cr, the lack of any strong addition from Zik cr means that you can only really play Cat Cr at which point you can already solo vs just about anyone by the nature of being CATH. Find me a round where Cat cant Solo into 4 or 5 races with all of its attack options.

With all the concentration into Fr all attack options will revolve around Fr and since there is no real way to "stop" Fr it will ultimately be the most picked attack fleet. At least last round Broadswords could be used to stop fr waves later in the round where as in these stats you wont be able to do much at all.
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Unread 10 Mar 2015, 11:59   #40
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Re: Round 61 BB stats

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Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
The problem is the it is too easy to just spam Fr for all defense and cover 5 of the 6 meta classes. Which is fine because ultimately one class wont be played because the stats maker makes it trash. This round it will Cr, the lack of any strong addition from Zik cr means that you can only really play Cat Cr at which point you can already solo vs just about anyone by the nature of being CATH. Find me a round where Cat cant Solo into 4 or 5 races with all of its attack options.

With all the concentration into Fr all attack options will revolve around Fr and since there is no real way to "stop" Fr it will ultimately be the most picked attack fleet. At least last round Broadswords could be used to stop fr waves later in the round where as in these stats you wont be able to do much at all.
So atm it is:
Ter/Zik FR team up stopped by xan FI
Ter/Zik/ETD FR team up stopped by xan FI
Xan/Etd FR team up stopped by Zik CO
Xan/Etd/Zik Team up stopped by Zik CO
Xan/Ter team up stopped by Ter BS
Xan/Ter/Etd team up stopped by NULL(EMP)
----
So if say i modified Clipper to be init 8 FR killer, moved Cutter T2 to Bucc T2, Edited drake to init 9,
Xan/Ter/Etd team up will be stopped by Clipper
And Xan/Ter/Etd/Zik team up stopped by NULL(EMP)?

Would this balance this out in your mind?
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Unread 10 Mar 2015, 12:00   #41
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Re: Round 61 BB stats

And i dont want broadswords type of ships, they were too good last round.
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Unread 10 Mar 2015, 12:34   #42
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Re: Round 61 BB stats

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
So if say i modified Clipper to be init 8 FR killer, moved Cutter T2 to Bucc T2, Edited drake to init 9,
Xan/Ter/Etd team up will be stopped by Clipper
And Xan/Ter/Etd/Zik team up stopped by NULL(EMP)?
Does this not just boot the Terr out of the ultimate FR trio and replace him with a zik since the now DE targeting Bucc at init 7 will prefire the Clipper?
The Terr would no longer be serving a useful function since its only the first of the FR to fire against CO, which is worthless since all the relevant CO is either EMP or sleals.
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Unread 10 Mar 2015, 12:41   #43
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Re: Round 61 BB stats

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
And i dont want broadswords type of ships, they were too good last round.
Surely the problem with broads was not necessarily that they were too good (tho perhaps they were) but that those alliances which had them in abundance were also the ones that had cause to fear them as a result the broadsword had a big effect upon politics.
The FR killer just has to belong to a race that hasnt got an FR pod and the effect would be rather different to last rounds' broadsword imo (plus dont cloak it!).
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Unread 10 Mar 2015, 14:54   #44
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Re: Round 61 BB stats

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Originally Posted by [B5]Londo View Post
Does this not just boot the Terr out of the ultimate FR trio and replace him with a zik since the now DE targeting Bucc at init 7 will prefire the Clipper?
The Terr would no longer be serving a useful function since its only the first of the FR to fire against CO, which is worthless since all the relevant CO is either EMP or sleals.
No, you will still need both zik/ter to roid zik, so its not replacing anything, more like seriously nerphing FR.
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Unread 10 Mar 2015, 14:55   #45
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Re: Round 61 BB stats

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Originally Posted by [B5]Londo View Post
Surely the problem with broads was not necessarily that they were too good (tho perhaps they were) but that those alliances which had them in abundance were also the ones that had cause to fear them as a result the broadsword had a big effect upon politics.
The FR killer just has to belong to a race that hasnt got an FR pod and the effect would be rather different to last rounds' broadsword imo (plus dont cloak it!).
The broads were insane, one fleet could force a recall of 4 FR attackers.
Zero loss ships, even if not cloacked, its realy screwing things over if they are allready in a "popular" race
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Unread 10 Mar 2015, 14:55   #46
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Re: Round 61 BB stats

Yes, the problem with broads was that they were too good, a ship that can solocover a teamup while being significantly lower value is just too good. No matter if it's in some other race or even not cloaked (you can easily fake 10k visible ships too). Same for any other uberkiller, such as rogue (rather an equal problem to BS as broads were for FR).

Atm you need a 3 man teamup for FR teams to land "free", make it require the fourth race and it's no longer an attack option at all, especially as it already is coverable with reasonable amounts of ships. Cath CO/CR (thanks to stupidly high effs again) can in some extent roid solo, and then there are several teamup options for the CO later (zik with stolen pods, ETD), that are decently strong, especially if the uni goes FR heavy (leaving the DE that's the de facto anti-CO to lower amounts). Adding a FR killer to a race without FR means that'd be Cath too or god forbid Zik, both of which are already quite strong. Changing the Man O war to kill made a big difference to CR, even if it is lower init, so Zik now has 4 decent roiding (teamup) options too (yes, some steals required). Ter having both CR and BS that shoots FRDE can be a problem... especially when the War Cruiser gets stolen so nicely in to both Cath/Zik CR fleets.

IMO changing the set too much at this point would only make it worse, it's not perfect, but it really can't be "perfected" without a massive overhaul (pretty much starting over). M0s set isn't perfect either.
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Unread 10 Mar 2015, 15:05   #47
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Re: Round 61 BB stats

Curious, how was the Broadsword any different from the Tzen in these stats?
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Unread 10 Mar 2015, 15:06   #48
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Re: Round 61 BB stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoXiouS View Post
Yes, the problem with broads was that they were too good, a ship that can solocover a teamup while being significantly lower value is just too good. No matter if it's in some other race or even not cloaked (you can easily fake 10k visible ships too). Same for any other uberkiller, such as rogue (rather an equal problem to BS as broads were for FR).

Atm you need a 3 man teamup for FR teams to land "free", make it require the fourth race and it's no longer an attack option at all, especially as it already is coverable with reasonable amounts of ships. Cath CO/CR (thanks to stupidly high effs again) can in some extent roid solo, and then there are several teamup options for the CO later (zik with stolen pods, ETD), that are decently strong, especially if the uni goes FR heavy (leaving the DE that's the de facto anti-CO to lower amounts). Adding a FR killer to a race without FR means that'd be Cath too or god forbid Zik, both of which are already quite strong. Changing the Man O war to kill made a big difference to CR, even if it is lower init, so Zik now has 4 decent roiding (teamup) options too (yes, some steals required). Ter having both CR and BS that shoots FRDE can be a problem... especially when the War Cruiser gets stolen so nicely in to both Cath/Zik CR fleets.

IMO changing the set too much at this point would only make it worse, it's not perfect, but it really can't be "perfected" without a massive overhaul (pretty much starting over). M0s set isn't perfect either.
As some allready said, FR looks like a obvious choice, wich means that there will be ****loads of FR around, having the viper at 169% eff aint all that, seeing its teh ONLY anti FR in a ETD/CAT CO strat.
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Unread 10 Mar 2015, 15:08   #49
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Re: Round 61 BB stats

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Curious, how was the Broadsword any different from the Tzen in these stats?
They are a diffrent class. Tzen is a FR, and Broadsword was a CR.
Tzen fire FI, and Broads fired FR
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Unread 10 Mar 2015, 15:15   #50
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Re: Round 61 BB stats

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
The broads were insane, one fleet could force a recall of 4 FR attackers.
Zero loss ships, even if not cloacked, its realy screwing things over if they are allready in a "popular" race
Broads were not zero loss at all, they fired first then they died and their owner took a hit, sometimes a big one.
Zero loss is when a ship shoots but doesnt get hit in return.
Im sure I do not need to remind people that the existence of the broad did nothing to stop FR totally dominating last round.

A simple suggestion to reduce FR would be to simply remove the Astropod. FR would need to steal their FR pods (and with both Mara and Smuggler providing opportunities this would not be to difficult if players were determined). The result would however, be a reduction of the number of Ghosts available for teamups, making FR overall somewhat more vulnerable to capital ships without actually nerfing anything.
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