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Unread 27 Jun 2012, 10:19   #201
Spinner
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Re: Jagex - Ominously silent

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Honestly, I'd hope for something more than "keeping PA alive".
And with good reasons, I might add.
But, as stated, I can do nothing but wait for Jagex now.
Short story though:
- Combat must be more fun and more varied
- Less waiting and more action
- The information-flow in the game must be improved
- The single-player elements must be enhanced
- The game needs to take a few step backwards in regards to races and ships
- The signup and login functionality must be improved (simplified)
- The business-model must change
- It must be worthwhile, and simple, to introduce the game to others
- The GUI itself needs fixing in several places, and one skin is enough as long as it's good
- The game needs a mobile interface
Get those things in place, and then it's worthwhile to look at the marketing.
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Unread 27 Jun 2012, 12:48   #202
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Re: Jagex - Ominously silent

You'll have no(t much) argument from me on those points!
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Unread 27 Jun 2012, 17:42   #203
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Re: Jagex - Ominously silent

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Originally Posted by Spinner View Post
You got it all wrong.
My new game has nothing to do with my interest in keeping PA alive. My new game has it's own name, it's own url, its own facebook-page, and tbh, any kickstart-effect you mention will happen regardless of where PA resides.
My interest in PA is to keep it alive, as it deserves it, and it's current owners have so far failed to live up to the expectations.
As for funds, not all marketing-opportunities cost money, it's a viral web out there. And truth be told, it's not unthinkable that PA might be able to pay for it's own marketing.
As i said i dont know what you plan, or hope, but as far as i see it now is that you want to run two browser games, while you write designe PA3 wich will be more focused on elements wich wasnt the orginal elements that made this community so big.
Lets be realistic and say that irc is a thing of the past, and most multiplayer games today aint based around irc anymore ie.
Myself would rather see it run dry instead of changing the basic requirements of being a sucsesfull pa player
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Unread 27 Jun 2012, 20:56   #204
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Re: Jagex - Ominously silent

Have it so you can only research something when someone you invite gets to 1k roids
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Unread 27 Jun 2012, 22:20   #205
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Re: Jagex - Ominously silent

Spinner: I bet most of us is positive to the idea of you getting behind the PA-wheel again, and personally I am thankfull for your dedication.

(Just ignore b-butcher please. He is evil, and will never try to understand what you are actually saying no matter how much you try to reason with him)
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Unread 27 Jun 2012, 22:37   #206
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Re: Jagex - Ominously silent

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Originally Posted by Illusion View Post
(Just ignore b-butcher please. He is evil, and will never try to understand what you are actually saying no matter how much you try to reason with him)
Actually I though b-butcher makes some good points on this thread and has at least thought about what he is typing

All you did was troll
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Unread 27 Jun 2012, 23:11   #207
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Re: Jagex - Ominously silent

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Originally Posted by Illusion View Post
Spinner: I bet most of us is positive to the idea of you getting behind the PA-wheel again, and personally I am thankfull for your dedication.

(Just ignore b-butcher please. He is evil, and will never try to understand what you are actually saying no matter how much you try to reason with him)
Well i just dont get what Spinner is trying to do here.
Do he want to make something succsefull with the name planetarion wich is far from how the game mechanics worked when it was originaly created?
Do he want to try breath life into the existing game?
Is he being sentimental for the name of planetarion being dragged down the path it currently is with the shrinking playerbase?
I think he will face to major issues, either he got to think less of the current playerbase wich is used to this exiling game, getting rid of deathweight(small galaxies with exiling options, limited alliances, current game mechanics, current combat engine, etc etc), make it more newb friendly?
Or he will have to continue on the path where PA has been heading all since r4, with small changes, still keeping the essence of the game, wich frankly, i dont belive bring in new faces atm, due to advertisement, game mechanics, inactive owners, or what not i dont know.

And i am positive with Spinner getting behind the wheel again, wich i think i said with "I do hope Jagex will be handing it back to you though!".
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Unread 28 Jun 2012, 00:29   #208
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Re: Jagex - Ominously silent

Let me see if I can make it clearer for you then.

- I already run, maintain and update ManagerLeague, an online football manager game.
- We are making splendid progress with our Unmentionable game, and apart from Spaceships, combat and being a WMMO, it has nothing to do with Planetarion.
So regardless of what happens to Planetarion, I will have 2 released games to take care of in a not too distant time. None of this has anything to do with Planetarion.

"What I am trying to do here" is getting my hands on my first WMMO again.
Not because I think there is money to be made.
Not because it will give me a "kickstart" on any other game.
Simply because recent events announced by Jagex, about the closing of some other games, and their focus on Transformers (and / or other things), along with the current state of a completely neglected Planetarion, might indicate that the end draws near, so to speak.

The web has developed significantly since we sold PA to save our company from bankruptcy, and Planetarion has been left in the early previous decade.

If this is so hard to understand, why not turn it around?
Why would I NOT be interested to retrieve and take care of my first game of this type?

And as for some peoples allergic reaction to changes, well, tough luck if it happens.
As for changing it to something you won't recognize, well, tbh, it HAD a mobile interface 12 years ago...It HAD better signup and login-procedures 12 years ago, compared to the times ofc...It HAD a different business-model 12 years ago...Just as it had some pretty fundamental weaknesses in its core design, which was fine as long as we had 1000 signups per day. It HAD more landings and more action 12 years ago, and it was simply put a better game. PA doesn't "work" with 800 players (ok, that's just my view) and I do not understand why anyone wouldn't want it to grow again.
Will PA see 100.000 accounts again? No, of course not.
But can it reach 10.000 again? Absolutely.
Can it be made into a better game, a game more suited towards the current market, a more accessible game? Absolutely.

New users have 100 reasons not to play this game as it is now. THAT is a waste.

Oh, and I am fine about being called sentimental, it would not be the first time. Of course I have feelings for Planetarion.

You seem to think this is black and white though, and see "2 choices". We do not share the same view on that. I have presented a short list of things that I am confident this game needs, before marketing-efforts will show any kind of payoff when it comes to bringing in new faces. It's ok for me if you wish to look at each item as either "n00b-friendly" or "hardcore-friendly", but I fail to see it like that. I don't belive a mobile interface is bad for any group, nor do I believe some more depth (and less width) in the combat is bad for either group, not as long as it makes the game better. I do not see how a modernized business-model can be favoring any of these two groups you refer to either. I also fail to see how a better information-flow, where help-info is where you need it, rather in some unread manual, is bad for anyone.

That said, I see where you are coming from in terms of "n000bs" vs "loyalists".
Truth be told, there would not be such a choice to make, as the choices would be decided by an updated vision of what the game should be, not what this group or that group would like.

And again, none of this matters the least bit until we hear back from a certain owner...
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Unread 28 Jun 2012, 17:16   #209
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Re: Jagex - Ominously silent

If anyone can do it, Spinner can do it.

Here's one Smudge hoping the man who can will!
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Unread 28 Jun 2012, 21:10   #210
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Re: Jagex - Ominously silent

Can we discuss this in another topic?
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Unread 29 Jun 2012, 17:41   #211
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Re: Jagex - Ominously silent

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Originally Posted by neroon View Post
This is also why this game needs someone strong to run it, who can also deal with unpopular desicions?
I'm afraid that someone will not be me.

I have been in contact with someone from Jagex again today, and they have no intention of selling it or handing it over to me. They have their plans, and need time, and that was pretty much what they would reveal. Not much in terms of news, so to speak.
They did, however, confirm that there are no plans to shut PA down, so my interest to preserve the game seems to be taken care of at least.

Oh well, it was a longshot, back to normal I guess.

I shall hide under my rock then, until I am called upon once again.
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Unread 29 Jun 2012, 20:42   #212
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Re: Jagex - Ominously silent

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spinner View Post
I'm afraid that someone will not be me.

I have been in contact with someone from Jagex again today, and they have no intention of selling it or handing it over to me. They have their plans, and need time, and that was pretty much what they would reveal. Not much in terms of news, so to speak.
They did, however, confirm that there are no plans to shut PA down, so my interest to preserve the game seems to be taken care of at least.

Oh well, it was a longshot, back to normal I guess.

I shall hide under my rock then, until I am called upon once again.
and this is very sad to hear mate.. hopefully this will not be the last we hear about u tho!

gl with future projects!
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Unread 1 Jul 2012, 18:20   #213
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Re: Jagex - Ominously silent

Guys, get a grip...How on earth, or any planet at all, could you allow this thread, about Jagex and their silence, turn into this bickering about prelaunches? You do realize you're just as productive as the current and the previous owners with this behaviour? You realize you are making things worse for the game and community with this kind of behaviour?
Is the community really so in shambles that this is what it has come down to?

Very sad indeed.

And guys, get a grip, will ya? (-:
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Unread 1 Jul 2012, 20:11   #214
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Re: Jagex - Ominously silent

Threads of conversation develop, it's what they do. They can easily move these posts to another thread.
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Unread 3 Jul 2012, 22:26   #215
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Re: Jagex - Ominously silent

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spinner View Post
I'm afraid that someone will not be me.

I have been in contact with someone from Jagex again today, and they have no intention of selling it or handing it over to me. They have their plans, and need time, and that was pretty much what they would reveal. Not much in terms of news, so to speak.
They did, however, confirm that there are no plans to shut PA down, so my interest to preserve the game seems to be taken care of at least.
I think this bit stayed a little unnoticed due to the whole PL polemic.
So they have plans. They outbid you 2 years ago and still they are at "we have plans"??
That's a bit weak...
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Unread 4 Jul 2012, 01:45   #216
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Re: Jagex - Ominously silent

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Originally Posted by Korsan View Post
I think this bit stayed a little unnoticed due to the whole PL polemic.
So they have plans. They outbid you 2 years ago and still they are at "we have plans"??
That's a bit weak...
I wholeheartedly agree, and I believe I made my opinion quite clear in the talks.
I gave my word that the details of the conversations were to be confidential, and I have a nasty habit of keeping my word. That said, it's fair to wonder if I really got any details what so ever. I CAN say I feel sorry for Appocomaster, for the entire PaTeam, for the game and the community, and I am confident that all parties would have been better off with a more active owner these past years. All I can do is hope that "the plans" will be revealed at some point, and, of course, set in motion, whatever they are.

Without knowing any details, and I really don't know any details, I am not sure there actually IS "a plan", although I believe there is the INTENTION of assembling one. I personally believe, not based on anything in particular, that they purchased PA a bit too quickly, not being quite ready for it, and have since never quite gotten around to it.
And I stand by my words that I feel it's appalling and highly unprofessional to simply stop communicating with a community just because one can't promise something 100%. I think it's a monumental failure to NOT include the loyal community in the process of making such a plan, and I am very surprised that a big company like Jagex makes such a huge mistake.
Maybe they are too big though, maybe they are TOO professional, to run PA I mean. Maybe it's a bit too many meetings, maybe there a few too many minds at work, with too little ability to agree on things and actually get them done, I don't know. I guess I've seen too much "democracy" some times, and prefer having a strong person with a clear vision to simply call the shots accordingly. I don't know.

I am very glad I made contact though, as I think I have forced the issue of Planetarion, and there is definitely a clock ticking on both sides now, in the community and in Jagex. Or at least I hope so...
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Unread 4 Jul 2012, 09:11   #217
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Re: Jagex - Ominously silent

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Originally Posted by Spinner View Post
I wholeheartedly agree, and I believe I made my opinion quite clear in the talks.
I gave my word that the details of the conversations were to be confidential, and I have a nasty habit of keeping my word. That said, it's fair to wonder if I really got any details what so ever. I CAN say I feel sorry for Appocomaster, for the entire PaTeam, for the game and the community, and I am confident that all parties would have been better off with a more active owner these past years. All I can do is hope that "the plans" will be revealed at some point, and, of course, set in motion, whatever they are.

Without knowing any details, and I really don't know any details, I am not sure there actually IS "a plan", although I believe there is the INTENTION of assembling one. I personally believe, not based on anything in particular, that they purchased PA a bit too quickly, not being quite ready for it, and have since never quite gotten around to it.
And I stand by my words that I feel it's appalling and highly unprofessional to simply stop communicating with a community just because one can't promise something 100%. I think it's a monumental failure to NOT include the loyal community in the process of making such a plan, and I am very surprised that a big company like Jagex makes such a huge mistake.
Maybe they are too big though, maybe they are TOO professional, to run PA I mean. Maybe it's a bit too many meetings, maybe there a few too many minds at work, with too little ability to agree on things and actually get them done, I don't know. I guess I've seen too much "democracy" some times, and prefer having a strong person with a clear vision to simply call the shots accordingly. I don't know.

I am very glad I made contact though, as I think I have forced the issue of Planetarion, and there is definitely a clock ticking on both sides now, in the community and in Jagex. Or at least I hope so...
I really thank you for your efforts Spinner, in getting in touch with the company that owns Planetarion, and I really hope they will take to heart what you have been saying in this thread.

I wholeheartedly agree that this is an extremly frustrating process, after we yet again get an owner who has mostly ignored the game bar a few techincal changes to start with, that was fully needed since the game changed owners. I find it extremly difficult to motivate myself as a volunteer for the game with all this insecurity about what is going on with the game and I am seriously considering quitting my involvement with PA in total.

PA has given me so much on a personal level, that I really feel its heartbreaking to see it in its current state, unloved, unwanted, and really really shoved deep into a dark drawer. But my sentiment to the game can only keep me to the game for that long. It comes a time where you just gotta take some time to reflect on what PA really is for you, and if you can have the same fun times without the game as you can with.

Information is SOOOO important to EVERY online game, the need for information for the players and everyone involved is so desperatly needed, that I bring myself to question if the owners really do care.

Then again, some might argue that the current enviroment in PA is so filled with distrust, dislike and hate towards both the game, owners and the volunteers, that it is difficult to go into this game with changes without getting large amounts of trollingposts and unconstructive critisisms. I do however feel that this is something the owners are fully at fault for themselves, if they had kept promises of regular information, if they had kept the deadlines themselves set, they might have had a community with more goodwill than they currently have.
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Unread 8 Jul 2012, 23:22   #218
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Re: Jagex - Ominously silent

You know who fault this problem is... the paying minority. If we dont pay for a few rounds, PA gets shut down.

1) Everyone gets time off to sleep.

2) They might sell the name on again.

Although I dont see Jagex selling PA and not try making a profit, rather than thinking whats good for the name.

But thats all PA is at the minute "a name with no game". You could easily sell on the name and dump the code in the recycle bin.
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Unread 6 Aug 2012, 08:33   #219
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Re: Jagex - Ominously silent

februari 27th i made the OP.
It's now august 6th. lol

I do not blame PA Team in this, they only can tell us what they hear from Jagex.

Jagex is to blame fully. Personally I think they just another bunch of liars. Unless they come up with something really worth the wait soon, I declare them completely and utterly worthless, useless and untrustworthy.
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Unread 6 Aug 2012, 09:17   #220
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Re: Jagex - Ominously silent

I am hopeful we'll actually have some news this month
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Unread 6 Aug 2012, 09:42   #221
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Re: Jagex - Ominously silent

You say this every time... yet Jagex has been unwilling to make any statements about it. Even to the effect of "Oh we are working on it." would be nice from them...
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Unread 6 Aug 2012, 12:03   #222
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Re: Jagex - Ominously silent

No, he hasn't said that "every time". This is the first time Appoco has given a concrete deadline, and even now there's a "hopeful" in there.
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Unread 6 Aug 2012, 14:41   #223
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Re: Jagex - Ominously silent

Well, yes. Nothing is ever certain. If you're lucky, you might even get some backstory
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Unread 6 Aug 2012, 14:50   #224
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Re: Jagex - Ominously silent

This wait for news from Jagex feels like the wait for Diablo 3...i hope the improvements/changes they are going to be announcing are going to be worth the wait.
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Unread 6 Aug 2012, 14:53   #225
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Re: Jagex - Ominously silent

Well, no. Pretty Diablo 3 like to be honest.
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Unread 6 Aug 2012, 15:58   #226
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Re: Jagex - Ominously silent

if memory serves didn't Jagex announce when they bought PA that the plan was to make a sequel? Maybe the news that is being so closely guarded has something to do with that.

http://www.planetarion.com/news/news...es-planetarion

'In other words, we want to work with you to evolve the game as well as make a sequel'

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Unread 6 Aug 2012, 17:12   #227
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Re: Jagex - Ominously silent

Ohh, news, hopefully.

The tension.....

/sarcasm
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Unread 6 Aug 2012, 20:13   #228
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Re: Jagex - Ominously silent

I hope our wishes in PA don't go the same way as in D3.
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Unread 9 Aug 2012, 09:01   #229
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Re: Jagex - Ominously silent

Quote:
And I stand by my words that I feel it's appalling and highly unprofessional to simply stop communicating with a community just because one can't promise something 100%.



I dont quite agree with you on 1 point, making promises you cant or dont keep is worse than making no promise at all.
False hope is more disheartening when its falseness rears its head than no news at all.
I think were all forgetting that they did do a significant something tho, they bought planetarion, that saved it (yes i know there were plans afoot at the time for the commity to take over) but for them, perhaps its the old car they put in the garage as a project, but other projects and life came along.
They are still renting the garage, they havent sold it on, the project is on the back burner, not forgotten.
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Unread 9 Aug 2012, 09:06   #230
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Re: Jagex - Ominously silent

ohh and just as an add on

I dont believe that this community with its tenacity would let the game be forgotten !
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Unread 9 Aug 2012, 09:09   #231
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Re: Jagex - Ominously silent

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Originally Posted by Mistwraith View Post
ohh and just as an add on

I dont believe that this community with its tenacity would let the game be forgotten !
*searches for LIKE button everywhere with no dice*

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Unread 9 Aug 2012, 18:49   #232
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Re: Jagex - Ominously silent

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistwraith View Post
I dont quite agree with you on 1 point, making promises you cant or dont keep is worse than making no promise at all.
False hope is more disheartening when its falseness rears its head than no news at all.
I think were all forgetting that they did do a significant something tho, they bought planetarion, that saved it (yes i know there were plans afoot at the time for the commity to take over) but for them, perhaps its the old car they put in the garage as a project, but other projects and life came along.
They are still renting the garage, they havent sold it on, the project is on the back burner, not forgotten.
Game would not have died without jagex, either Spinner or a group of interested players would have bought out Zpeti, and were ready to do so.
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Unread 8 Sep 2012, 11:27   #233
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Re: Jagex - Ominously silent

*cough cough*
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Unread 8 Sep 2012, 11:29   #234
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Re: Jagex - Ominously silent

seriously, I know
I tried to set a realistic time but I underestimated a few things.
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Unread 8 Sep 2012, 11:33   #235
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Re: Jagex - Ominously silent

PA runs on Valve Time.
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Unread 8 Sep 2012, 13:08   #236
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Re: Jagex - Ominously silent

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
PA runs on Valve Time.
I double checked, Valve was founded in 1996. Otherwise, Valve would be running on Planetarion time, to be honest.

It is kinda my fault that I'm trying to second guess timelines to give you something. Sorry guys
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Unread 8 Sep 2012, 21:31   #237
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Re: Jagex - Ominously silent

This means there is still nothing from Jagex Alright, hehe...
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Unread 9 Sep 2012, 14:59   #238
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Re: Jagex - Ominously silent

well, kinda, yeah.
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Unread 11 Sep 2012, 08:07   #239
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Re: Jagex - Ominously silent

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistwraith View Post
I dont quite agree with you on 1 point, making promises you cant or dont keep is worse than making no promise at all.
False hope is more disheartening when its falseness rears its head than no news at all.
I think were all forgetting that they did do a significant something tho, they bought planetarion, that saved it (yes i know there were plans afoot at the time for the commity to take over) but for them, perhaps its the old car they put in the garage as a project, but other projects and life came along.
They are still renting the garage, they havent sold it on, the project is on the back burner, not forgotten.
Your blind optimism borders on gullibility.

Here's a different analogy--

They bought a car for dirt cheap. For some strange reason, this car turns a profit while they just sit it in the garage. There is no need to upkeep it, a haphazard team of handymen do that, for free, out of sense of strange dedication to this old, weary specimen. They will well take advantage of these handymen until the car is beyond repair. All that loved it will be left with nothing because the purchaser was able to turn a profit on neglect. When its rusted out they'll simply abandon it, as was their plan, because they have a Mercedes in their garage at home.
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Unread 11 Sep 2012, 11:01   #240
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Re: Jagex - Ominously silent

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stylez1877 View Post
Your blind optimism borders on gullibility.

Here's a different analogy--

They bought a car for dirt cheap. For some strange reason, this car turns a profit while they just sit it in the garage. There is no need to upkeep it, a haphazard team of handymen do that, for free, out of sense of strange dedication to this old, weary specimen. They will well take advantage of these handymen until the car is beyond repair. All that loved it will be left with nothing because the purchaser was able to turn a profit on neglect. When its rusted out they'll simply abandon it, as was their plan, because they have a Mercedes in their garage at home.
Here's a different analogy.
An artist is sitting in a hut by a castle. He decides to paint what's in one room of the castle, say the embroidery room, without having ever been in there. He can only see the front gate of the castle, which is rarely used; most people use the back entrance.
He is proud of his work and proclaims its accuracy.
He's still never been in.
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Unread 11 Sep 2012, 11:02   #241
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Re: Jagex - Ominously silent

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
Here's a different analogy.
An artist is sitting in a hut by a castle. He decides to paint what's in one room of the castle, say the embroidery room, without having ever been in there. He can only see the front gate of the castle, which is rarely used; most people use the back entrance.
He is proud of his work and proclaims its accuracy.
He's still never been in.
p.s. my analogy rocks your analogy, because I think it's a lot more accurate.
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Unread 11 Sep 2012, 17:22   #242
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Re: Jagex - Ominously silent

I can't vouch for its accuracy, because the first (and indeed, only) word that comes to my mind is "mystifying". I haven't the faintest clue what your analogy is meant to explain.
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Unread 11 Sep 2012, 21:49   #243
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Re: Jagex - Ominously silent

Mz: the key message is - Jagex never checked inside the black box. They only know it is a black box. And that is the way they will sell it again. Without checking the content of the black box.

Or another analogy: a garage auction. Buyers come over and only see the content from the outside. They decide to buy it, but forget about it the next day. A few years later they open the garage box and close it directly. They sell it without having checked the contents.

I think this is what Appoco meant to say :P
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Unread 12 Sep 2012, 18:17   #244
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Re: Jagex - Ominously silent

Hm. Still not really digging it, but ok
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Unread 12 Sep 2012, 20:18   #245
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Re: Jagex - Ominously silent

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
Here's a different analogy.
An artist is sitting in a hut by a castle. He decides to paint what's in one room of the castle, say the embroidery room, without having ever been in there. He can only see the front gate of the castle, which is rarely used; most people use the back entrance.
He is proud of his work and proclaims its accuracy.
He's still never been in.
So you are the artist, drawing a picture without knowing what's going on inside at Jagex. Then - with all respect - you shouldn't talk for them and make promises. They let you down like they let PA community down. Their presence at this game is annoying and the worst joke I've ever seen. And if I was you I'd really step down and tell them to foff and handle their shalone.
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Unread 12 Sep 2012, 20:45   #246
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Re: Jagex - Ominously silent

He didn't promise anything. "Hopeful" in no way implies a promise.
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Unread 12 Sep 2012, 21:30   #247
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Re: Jagex - Ominously silent

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shev View Post
He didn't promise anything. "Hopeful" in no way implies a promise.
Yeah let's argue about words now.
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Unread 12 Sep 2012, 21:47   #248
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Re: Jagex - Ominously silent

Quote:
Originally Posted by Korsan View Post
Yeah let's argue about words now.
you claimed someone made promises when they didn't. that's not a small difference thing.
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Unread 13 Sep 2012, 09:24   #249
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Re: Jagex - Ominously silent

There is one small thing about this whole situation that gives me the tiniest amount of hope.

Jagex could have made more money out of PA by merely advertising it a very small amount (ie just their own website). i hold on to the hope that the reason they didnt is because they want to improve the game BEFORE they try and get new players. this makes sense, if they want to actually retain people rather than just make a "quick buck".

"To live without Hope is to Cease to live." - Dostoevsky
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Unread 13 Sep 2012, 17:54   #250
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Re: Jagex - Ominously silent

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reincarnate View Post
you claimed someone made promises when they didn't. that's not a small difference thing.
Well, saying "There will be something to announce shortly" is some kind of promise to me. Maybe I'm mistaken though..

And I don't feel that optimistic about the future of PA. I think the only reason they haven't done ANYTHING (except moving it to their servers) is they simply lack ressources and PA doesn't have any priority for them. They once said, they are developing their own space combat game, maybe that new game will simply get the name "Planetarion" and the game as we know it will be gone.

As long as the new game has some core mechanics of PA I am even fine with that, just give us ANYTHING.
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